The Hebrew Word for Faith (and it was fulfilled...)

[Seth]

Amen

[eaglesway]

As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive......

the creation was subjected to futility not of its own volition, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the entire creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Ro 8)

The hope is not hope like we dfine it in modern English, "Oh I hope this happens, or that happens". In the scriptures, God's hope is like the compass of His plan, pointing towards that which WILL BE- and as a beacon lighting the way for ALL WHO SHARE HIS HOPE. The hope/destination/compass of God(who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will Eph 1) is ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL.

All have already died. Death is the existing condition since Adam. Because of death we die, we weep, we hurt, we suffer loss, we lose our way, we reject the Hope of God. All of this is upon us already because.....

"In Adam all died"

Everyone since Adam has been born in Adam, except for the uniquely begotten son of God, who was born in Eve, born "under law", but not born in Adam, having no sin by nature or inheritance and having blood, by His Father's seed, precious enough and powerful enough to drag the whole creation back into life, "in Christ".(Jesus fulfilled the law, coming out from under Eve- therefore death had no hold on Him, bringing all who receive Him out from under Adam(death) and Eve(law) into Christ(life).

This is the hope we share.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace  which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up(gathering into one) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

So everyone who is in Adam is "in death" and dying physically is just the result of that. Death was the judgment upon Adam in terms of the consequences of his entrapment which God set for him but he did take the bait, so he pays the penalty, BUT ONLY SO THAT HE CAN SEE THE WILL AND GLORY AND LOVE OF GOD.

IMO this is the spiritual message of Genesis one, "and the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep and the Spirit moved over the waters and God said, "Let there be light" and there was light."

That is the whole thing right there in a nutshell, a "seed". In the beginning was the word, the seed, the Logos, the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact icon of His nature(Jn1,Heb1).

In Adam all died, became "without form and void" and darkness covered "the face of the deep"- veiled from "the deep things of God(for who knows the deep things of God but the Spirit of God)..... and as Seth pointed out, "to be carnally minded is death"

but the spirit moved upon the face of the waters- God's Spirit strives with man, drawing Him to Himself, "If I be lifted up", drawing all things INEXORABLY into Christ, saying always into the chaos of man,

LET THERE BE LIGHT, separating the light from the dark, the good from the ill, "For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit(that which is of man and that which is of God), bone and marrow(even to the very core of our blood/life producing parts)-


AN BABY ITS A GOOOOOD THING LOLOLOLOL.... an God knows it, but we don't until LIGHT SHINES OUT OF DARKNESS TO REVEAL THE LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST  :dsunny:

When you face who you are, a broken vessel totally dependent upon the good will of the Creator only then can grace begin to flow in rivers of living water.

If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the god of this world has blinded their eyes. "I created the destroyer to destroy" says the Creator- so then how does He hold man into account? He does whatever He wills and His reasons are beyond us, says Paul, For who has known the mind of the Lord, Who has been His counselor?

Man, I just love the scriptures, this word, this record of all that has gone before, this map through all that is, this glimpse into all that will come :o)

the mystery remains unsolved by man, only glimpsed in small measure by the gracious generosity of God, full of treasure, full of grace, dispensing living water to any who thirst for it.


Lord open up the fountains that are closed and let there be rivers of life springing up out of the desert once again. Peace out. :o)

[sheila]

AMEN!

[Seth]

Yrs Amen indeed

[JulieTang84]

Eagle your post was truly heartfelt magnificent. Thank you


If I have offended anyone, I truly apologize.  Death has been presented to me in many ways, by some very learned people. Every single argument has some Scriptural merit; some more than others.


There are two basic Scriptural fundamental lessons.

1. Of Sin

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Rom 5:12

2. The Gift of Life

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Rom 5:15

Summed up perfectly by Paul here:

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. - 1Cr 15:45

So what does it mean that Jesus is a Life Giving Spirit?

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  1Cr 15:44

If there is a Natural Body, there is ALSO a Spiritual Body. This is a fascinating statement as regardless of when, ones spiritual body will be actuated. Some sooner than others.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.   John 5:25

The Spirit is a given. I could care less whether any particular person has received the gift of Life (Spirit) or not. It just thrills me that all WILL. Death, what is death but (as mentioned earlier) a ending of a chapter and the beginning of a new one.

The instant someone dies is the INSTANT they are resurrected. How so? There is no time in death, not like sleeping. It matters not that a 1000 years has past, it will be in a twinkling of an eye. So what is DEATH? A separation from Father? Hardly. Some of us might have to wait a very long time, when those in death do not have to wait at all. Please note, I am not saying that they all are resurrected already; but it is feasible that any person that has been given the gift of life (Spirit) by Jesus, will return to Father in our time. Instantly, because it would seem kind of pointless to be given the gift of life but then go through death like everyone else.

Death is nothing. I am not even worried about the ones whom Father did not call His own in their life time. I know Father has said He hardens some and has mercy on others. I KNOW HE will HAVE MERCY on EVERYONE. That is a given. I would trust this more than I trust my bank.

So, if I were to talk about death, I would say exactly what I said above. Even the most horrid person will be raised a Spiritual Being whether pre-purified or pending purification is of little concern. I would mention what Paul said about all of the hatred, nastiness, greed, etc will be cleansed AS IF BY FIRE. Which of course means; however, Father does it: a) the person is Spirit Being b) there is NO fire. c) there is not waiting

There is nothing in death to invoke fear or dread. I am not afraid to die, in fact Father can take me any time He chooses. This is not what it might seem. Being FREE from the fear of Death I can truly Live!!!!!!    :dsunny:

I hope this has in some way helped in explaining where I stand concerning death. No one is dead to me. I truly believe my loved ones whom I feel were given a healthy dose of Spirit are with Father here and now. All others in death are totally FREE from all the Worldly pressures most of face on a daily basis: Health, Money, Clothes, Bills, Transportation, etc

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[gregoryfl]

Shalom (wholeness) to you all :)

If I may share another beautiful insight from our Creator's language which concerns what our Father may think of when he thinks of emunah. His language is not only self defining, but gives us insight into his heart, in very down to earth, practical ways.

I was asked to submit an article for an online magazine for youths on the subject of faith, and this is what I came up with. With all of the Mom's out there, I especially pray that this finds a special place in your hearts, knowing how important you are in our Father's eyes. This article on faith is one example of what I plan on (Father willing) making in ebook fashion for us to take a peek behind some of the 'religious' words, and see them from our Creator's perspective, using the language I believe he created for man originally.

I love you all,

Ronen

'Moms and Faith

The dictionary defines faith as, 'complete trust or confidence in something or someone.' While certainly a nice and tidy definition, I would like us to look at this from our Creator's viewpoint. In looking at the word in the Creator's language, we see what I believe is a wonderful picture of faithfulness.

אמנ

'Aman' is the base word from which we get such concepts as 'faith', 'faithfulness', and the action 'belief'. Embedded within the letters aleph, mem, nun, (reading from right to left) which make up this word, we see something far deeper, yet something any child can experience and understand.

As with most words, the first 2 letters make up the 2 letter marriage root of the word. In this case, it is the aleph and mem. The nun would then be attached at the end, adding further nuance of meaning to the meaning of aleph mem, making this the family 3 letter root.

The aleph and mem convey the concept of cultivating (א) water (מ). If one takes a more abstract meaning of the aleph indicating strength, we can still see the picture indicated if it is understood to mean strong (א) water (מ).

This would be water that sources up out of the earth, from an invisible place...in other words, a wellspring.

A wellspring is an originating source of water, which becomes streams and rivers. This is an appropriate description of what aleph mem means, a word we translate today as 'mother'.

This concrete meaning is seen in Eze 21:21 which speaks of the king of Babylon standing 'at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways'. The word 'parting' is 'em' (אמ), everywhere else translated as 'mother'. Here we see that he stood literally at the mother of the way, the originating point which became two. Being the mother is the equivalent of being the source, and the support of it. And we see from Gen 3:20 that Chava (Eve) became the source and support of all children.

When you add a nun (נ) to the word you are now adding the concept of a sprout, something that grows, continuing the next generation, yet is attached firmly in place. It speaks of the continuation of something...something rooted, grounded in that continuance.

Here is where it gets beautiful. When our Father wanted to convey the concrete idea of faith, and what it should be pictured by, he chose a mother; who, like a wellspring, is a source which is not stagnant, but goes forth continually, something you can count on, rooted in the earth, yet flowing along and forming streams and rivers and creeks, etc.

Such faith is no mere mental assent, but is fully active and fruitful for the benefit of others.

Think on this for a moment. Who better to picture such faithfulness than a mommy to her children? I can think of none. They were made for such. And when those children grow up, isn't it the mom's of the world who usually get mentioned as examples of faithfulness?

Like a wellspring, when does a mommy's faithfulness end? NEVER!

This is not to say that dads cannot be examples of faithfulness, but there is something special about a mom's devotion and support of her children that is unsurpassed as an example, and our Creator planned it that way, for remember, He chose to embed who she is right in the word for faith itself.

As I mentioned earlier, part of the concrete idea borne from what we have seen so far is a literal supporting. We see this demonstrated for us in what we read of when Moses had his hands supported by Aaron and Hur during a war. They provided אמונה 'emunah' (faithfulness) for his hands. They were a continuous source of support that bore fruit for the benefit of others (victory for Israel).

So the next time you think of faith, find a mom, whether yours or someone else's, and thank her.'

[Seth]

There are two basic Scriptural fundamental lessons.

1. Of Sin

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Rom 5:12

2. The Gift of Life

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Rom 5:15

Summed up perfectly by Paul here:

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. - 1Cr 15:45

First, you have not offended me. Disagreements don't offend me, so you don't have to apologize for disagreeing with me.

As to physical death, that's never been the point of the OP, so I will leave that alone. It's never been a contention that all will be saved. But the MANNER in which all will be saved is the point. It seems to be if we are to quote Romans 5 for a verse on life from the dead, why not quote a verse that actually contains the word "life"

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

in association with:

Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith (ENUMAH - belief+obedience), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We access grace through faith, but I believe GRACE is one of the most misunderstood concepts in Christendom. Paul taught very clearly about how grace results in purification:

Titus 1
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing (Paiduo - Chastening) us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of [h]our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

We should all be speaking and exorting those things as we have all been given the word. Paul did not tell us to refuse to speak about death. He told Titus to SPEAK and EXORT the things he just said there.

Grace CHASTENS us to abanded ungodliness and worldly desires, to be redeemed from lawless deeds and that is what purifies for himself a people zealous for good deeds.

That's what it means that the just shall LIVE (have life) by faith.

The Spirit is a given. I could care less whether any particular person has received the gift of Life (Spirit) or not.

It's very difficult to reconcile statements like that with the Apostles. They cared very much. They did not rely on the eventuality of salvation for all, and use that as a reason to not care whether someone has the gift of Life. They went out and preached in earnest, and warned with tears in their eyes.

If Hitler had been given the gift of life away from sins and transgressions, 6 million people may not have suffered and died under his hand. God's sovereignty over this situation does not exclude us from caring about who has the gift of Life. It matters today because people are literally affected by it today.

If the Apostles held the same attitude, why would they "speak and exhort and reprove?"

Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

[Seth]

'Moms and Faith

The dictionary defines faith as, 'complete trust or confidence in something or someone.' While certainly a nice and tidy definition, I would like us to look at this from our Creator's viewpoint. In looking at the word in the Creator's language, we see what I believe is a wonderful picture of faithfulness.

אמנ

'Aman' is the base word from which we get such concepts as 'faith', 'faithfulness', and the action 'belief'. Embedded within the letters aleph, mem, nun, (reading from right to left) which make up this word, we see something far deeper, yet something any child can experience and understand.

As with most words, the first 2 letters make up the 2 letter marriage root of the word. In this case, it is the aleph and mem. The nun would then be attached at the end, adding further nuance of meaning to the meaning of aleph mem, making this the family 3 letter root.

The aleph and mem convey the concept of cultivating (א) water (מ). If one takes a more abstract meaning of the aleph indicating strength, we can still see the picture indicated if it is understood to mean strong (א) water (מ).

This would be water that sources up out of the earth, from an invisible place...in other words, a wellspring.

A wellspring is an originating source of water, which becomes streams and rivers. This is an appropriate description of what aleph mem means, a word we translate today as 'mother'.

This concrete meaning is seen in Eze 21:21 which speaks of the king of Babylon standing 'at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways'. The word 'parting' is 'em' (אמ), everywhere else translated as 'mother'. Here we see that he stood literally at the mother of the way, the originating point which became two. Being the mother is the equivalent of being the source, and the support of it. And we see from Gen 3:20 that Chava (Eve) became the source and support of all children.

When you add a nun (נ) to the word you are now adding the concept of a sprout, something that grows, continuing the next generation, yet is attached firmly in place. It speaks of the continuation of something...something rooted, grounded in that continuance.

Here is where it gets beautiful. When our Father wanted to convey the concrete idea of faith, and what it should be pictured by, he chose a mother; who, like a wellspring, is a source which is not stagnant, but goes forth continually, something you can count on, rooted in the earth, yet flowing along and forming streams and rivers and creeks, etc.

Such faith is no mere mental assent, but is fully active and fruitful for the benefit of others.

Think on this for a moment. Who better to picture such faithfulness than a mommy to her children? I can think of none. They were made for such. And when those children grow up, isn't it the mom's of the world who usually get mentioned as examples of faithfulness?

Like a wellspring, when does a mommy's faithfulness end? NEVER!

This is not to say that dads cannot be examples of faithfulness, but there is something special about a mom's devotion and support of her children that is unsurpassed as an example, and our Creator planned it that way, for remember, He chose to embed who she is right in the word for faith itself.

As I mentioned earlier, part of the concrete idea borne from what we have seen so far is a literal supporting. We see this demonstrated for us in what we read of when Moses had his hands supported by Aaron and Hur during a war. They provided אמונה 'emunah' (faithfulness) for his hands. They were a continuous source of support that bore fruit for the benefit of others (victory for Israel).

So the next time you think of faith, find a mom, whether yours or someone else's, and thank her.'

I LOVE it  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Eagle your post was truly heartfelt magnificent. Thank you


If I have offended anyone, I truly apologize.  Death has been presented to me in many ways, by some very learned people. Every single argument has some Scriptural merit; some more than others.


There are two basic Scriptural fundamental lessons.

1. Of Sin

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Rom 5:12

2. The Gift of Life

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Rom 5:15

Summed up perfectly by Paul here:

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. - 1Cr 15:45

So what does it mean that Jesus is a Life Giving Spirit?

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  1Cr 15:44

If there is a Natural Body, there is ALSO a Spiritual Body. This is a fascinating statement as regardless of when, ones spiritual body will be actuated. Some sooner than others.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.   John 5:25

The Spirit is a given. I could care less whether any particular person has received the gift of Life (Spirit) or not. It just thrills me that all WILL. Death, what is death but (as mentioned earlier) a ending of a chapter and the beginning of a new one.

The instant someone dies is the INSTANT they are resurrected. How so? There is no time in death, not like sleeping. It matters not that a 1000 years has past, it will be in a twinkling of an eye. So what is DEATH? A separation from Father? Hardly. Some of us might have to wait a very long time, when those in death do not have to wait at all. Please note, I am not saying that they all are resurrected already; but it is feasible that any person that has been given the gift of life (Spirit) by Jesus, will return to Father in our time. Instantly, because it would seem kind of pointless to be given the gift of life but then go through death like everyone else.

Death is nothing. I am not even worried about the ones whom Father did not call His own in their life time. I know Father has said He hardens some and has mercy on others. I KNOW HE will HAVE MERCY on EVERYONE. That is a given. I would trust this more than I trust my bank.

So, if I were to talk about death, I would say exactly what I said above. Even the most horrid person will be raised a Spiritual Being whether pre-purified or pending purification is of little concern. I would mention what Paul said about all of the hatred, nastiness, greed, etc will be cleansed AS IF BY FIRE. Which of course means; however, Father does it: a) the person is Spirit Being b) there is NO fire. c) there is not waiting

There is nothing in death to invoke fear or dread. I am not afraid to die, in fact Father can take me any time He chooses. This is not what it might seem. Being FREE from the fear of Death I can truly Live!!!!!!    :dsunny:

I hope this has in some way helped in explaining where I stand concerning death. No one is dead to me. I truly believe my loved ones whom I feel were given a healthy dose of Spirit are with Father here and now. All others in death are totally FREE from all the Worldly pressures most of face on a daily basis: Health, Money, Clothes, Bills, Transportation, etc

Love Julie  :girlheart:

Hi Julie,

   If you have offended anyone it certainly wasnt me. I find your posts and particpation in discussions to be engaging and in a good spirit, even if at times I may not see something the same way you do or vice versa- would that we all could have discourse and midrash around our differig perspectives in the same spirit you bring to the forum.

  Having said that, :o) I am not sure I understand what you mean by......"there is NO fire,....there is not waiting"- in order to agree or disagree I have to understand what you have said.

As I see it there IS fire, now, and in some measure there WILL BE for some at or just past the Great White Throne, where all who hav not participated in the first resurrection will awaken- but we are given a couple of verses with which to glimpse these things so I do not(nor do I hav any confidence in )thdse who make confident ssertions about the details of this. :o) Peace, John

But we certainly agree that in the end every being will be one in God who will be all in all.

[JulieTang84]

Seth - if Hitler killed those 6,000,000 Jews outside of Fathers limitations, I need to find another Father :(

However, if Father planned it all, how could Hitler not carry it out. Also, what is it for it's too take away from this. I feel Farther has planned all of this for us. If we judge and condemn are we no different than the scribes of old?

We were not told to condemn by Jesus, just to trust Farther and love Farther and all else as yourself.

Eagle - Thanks for your kind words. As for the fire being real, I find this difficult to reconcile as we are told that what issownnatural is raised as spiritual. As such any mention of fire must be figurative, which is supported by Paul when he says: As if by fire. Revelation is a book of symbols, brimstone is also known as a purification agent for precious metals. What is more precious than one of Fathers spiritual children?

There will certainly be a cleansing, but spirit cannot be burned by fire..

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Seth - if Hitler killed those 6,000,000 Jews outside of Fathers limitations, I need to find another Father :(

However, if Father planned it all, how could Hitler not carry it out. Also, what is it for it's too take away from this. I feel Farther has planned all of this for us. If we judge and condemn are we no different than the scribes of old?

We were not told to condemn by Jesus, just to trust Farther and love Farther and all else as yourself.

It's not a matter of condemning, Julie. It's a matter of caring. You don't care who has life, you said so. We are called to care. God's sovereignty is not an excuse for complacency on our part.

If you don't care, then you render yourself of no use in bringing life to the world. If that is where you are content with where "God has you" then so be it for you. But I would rather be a worker in God's vineyard, Lord willing.

Paul once asked two believers if they had received the Holy Spirit, and they had never heard of it. So he laid hands on them and baptized them in the Holy Spirit. If he sat back and said "I don't care who has life" he never would have done that.

In fact, if the Apostles didn't care, we wouldn't have a Gospel today at all. We wouldn't even be at this forum.

Examples of death in sin and transgression are prostitution, pimping, murder, rape, theft, child molestation, torture, genocide. Those who have life are those who STOP doing those things. How can you talk about "love" then turn around and say you do not care who has life, when people who are living in death are hurting themselves and others?

[JulieTang84]

Oh Seth, when I said "I don't care!" I mean that I do not hold conditions on my love and compassion. Also, yesterday I was judged pretty harshly by you when I said that "No one is dead to me"

You see I can still pray to Father for the forgiveness of Hitlers acts. I can still feel such loss and compassion, even s bond with all that have suffered needless deaths. You seem to judge anyone harshly who do not agree with your view. I do not ask or need you to agree with mine. Fathers LOVE knows no bounds and death posed no limitation on mine. Should it even?

There is nothing anyone can do for my love to fail them. For if my love fails, then I have and I have lost faithfulness in Father. Have you ever given thought to what motivated Hitler and why? Also what of his inner being that knew what wad right that wad over-ridden. My heart and soul just cannot imagine why Father did not intervene. But I trust him enough to know that he wills what he please and I should no be dismayed.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Julie, you literally did say you don't care about who has life in the context of which I was explaining what life is. If you didn't mean that then OK but you did say it. I am explaining why I  disagree and why we should care. I did not make a personal judgement against you I simply disagree with what you said. And then I explained why. That's allowed on this forum. I have no problem being honest and direct and I don't think that is being harsh

[JulieTang84]

Julie, you literally did say you don't care about who has life in the context of which I was explaining what life is. If you didn't mean that then OK but you did say it. I am explaining why I  disagree and why we should care. I did not make a personal judgement against you I simply disagree with what you said. And then I explained why. That's allowed on this forum. I have no problem being honest and direct and I don't think that is being harsh

I guess you still do not understand what I am saying. If I care if or if not some one has been given the gift of life, then am I not imposing conditions on my love?

I MUST LOVE EVERYONE AS MYSELF IN ORDER TO LOVE FATHER!!!

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

If I care if or if not some one has been given the gift of life, then am I not imposing conditions on my love?

My answer is no. It isn't judgmental or "condemning" to simply recognize a condition that exists, that the Bible flat declares exists through the Gospel.

It says that the gift of life is freedom from sin, which includes all the things I listed. CARING is what results in action. If someone's house is burning down, for example, I wouldn't just say "that's where the Father has them." I am sure you wouldn't either. You would probably run into the house and drag people out of the destruction.

It's no different from life from the dead, since we are talking about life from "death in sin and transgressions." Paul cared so much here is what he did:

1 Cor 9
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Again, you challenged me that I should not speak about death on this forum. I challenge you in return that not only should we discuss it, life and death are the central themes of the Gospel.

[eaglesway]

Seth - if Hitler killed those 6,000,000 Jews outside of Fathers limitations, I need to find another Father :(

However, if Father planned it all, how could Hitler not carry it out. Also, what is it for it's too take away from this. I feel Farther has planned all of this for us. If we judge and condemn are we no different than the scribes of old?

We were not told to condemn by Jesus, just to trust Farther and love Farther and all else as yourself.

Eagle - Thanks for your kind words. As for the fire being real, I find this difficult to reconcile as we are told that what issownnatural is raised as spiritual. As such any mention of fire must be figurative, which is supported by Paul when he says: As if by fire. Revelation is a book of symbols, brimstone is also known as a purification agent for precious metals. What is more precious than one of Fathers spiritual children?

There will certainly be a cleansing, but spirit cannot be burned by fire..

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Real and Physical are not necessarily synonyms. The reward that will be lost in the fire(1 Cor 3:13-15) will be real- whatever it is. As for whether a spirit can be purged by fire, the word says a"a haughty spirit comes before a fall" . The fall is the fire that purges the haughtiness. "He will separate the wheat from the chaff and He will thoroughly cleanse His threshing floor and He will gather the wheat into His garner and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

IMO a spirit can be purged.

So, I do not believe in flames like wood logs burning as in physical bodies- I dont think many/any of us do. I just believe there is another fire, called the second death, and it is waiting for those who have not yet bowed the knee to our Savior and the Father's love. I can not make sense of Jesus' or Paul's words about aionian/olam kolassis and aionian/olam pur any other way......... that doesnt make me right, but I prefer scriptural confirmations to philosophical presentations.

Definitely we are not to condemn, I agree with that entirely....but  sometimes we are to warn the wicked from his way and testify to the kolassis to come- imo this is just a simple repitition of the warnings from our Lord, the prophets, and the apostles.

Accompanying that warning with the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and the gathering together of all things into Him, for me, is the icing on the cake, but the cake gets cooked in the fire, and the fire is light, because light consumes darkness. :o)

As Paul said, on save some with mercy, save some with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Concerning what Hitler did, or what Nero did to Christians or Trajian or whoever- I think God caused it, but the ones who did it are still held accountable in some measure. What is it to you if God created the vessels of dishonor for destruction and the vessels of honor for praise? Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor?(Quoting Paul) Only the Father knows for sure ;o)

[JulieTang84]

Seth - Light is Life, Darkness is Death

John 3:17-21
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

One coming out of the darkness is seeking light for they need light, they ache for life. Unfortunately one still in the darkness will do all that they can to stay in the dark, because it has not been given them to seek the light. Such as these reak of death.

So who is helped by speaking of death? I ask this on all honesty, because only light can drive death out of darkness.

Eagle - I should have made myself clearer. There is only one true Spirit and this is whom I am referring to always. To your point of there being other spirits, you are most correct. These will most certainly be purged. I belive Father's  pure light will be all that is needed as Scriptures tell us that He is like refiners fire or a launders soap. This is just the way that needs been given to me to see it. I might be totally wrong on this.

Love to you both
Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Seth - Light is Life, Darkness is Death

Agreed.

One coming out of the darkness is seeking light for they need light, they ache for life. Unfortunately one still in the darkness will do all that they can to stay in the dark, because it has not been given them to seek the light. Such as these reak of death.

You cannot make that assumption that one in the darkness will stay, then turn around and walk away. That is not love. Saul of Tarsus was in the dark, and he was given the light. But he had to be blinded before he could see. You cannot know who will stay in the dark. This is why God gives us a candle and we ought not hide it under the bed.

So who is helped by speaking of death? I ask this on all honesty, because only light can drive death out of darkness.

Did you see what you just said? "only light can drive death out of darkness"

You didn't reject to speak about death. You included it in your message so that you could speak of light.

Take a look at Romans 1 sometime. The entire book of Romans starts with Paul outlining the broken condition of mankind. That's because it is central to everything else he is about to say in that book.

One cannot accept the light unless they accept first that they are in the dark. "You say you see so your sin remains." Those who are in the dark, think they are in the light. Those who are in death, think they are alive. That is why men love the darkness, because they do not think it's darkness at all.

The Gospel message is all about life from the dead. You cannot share one without acknowledging the other.

[JulieTang84]

You speak on circles Seth. I spoke of death only to explain to you about the power of light.

If you remember regarding Saul, it was light that blinded him, not darkness.

What association has light with darkness? Sorry I do not have the Scripture.
Light dispells darkness Seth, Truth dispells lies. Father dispells Satan. Jesus dispells death.

Can you not see death and darkness cannot ever produce light.

You are clutching at straws and doing a poor poor job. I said nothing of walking away EVER!!!@

LOVE IS LIGHT, I have nothing but love for the darkest of sinner, I try my utmost to shine love on whom ever needs it most, leaving it to Father to decide where it is directed and trusting Him that it is.

Do you stop and read your posts? You are so condescending and it is certainly not becomming of the Spirit of Truth and Love.

You are a good man Seth and I will never say otherwise.

Love is light and we must shine for all to see.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

You speak on circles Seth. I spoke of death only to explain to you about the power of light.

That's my whole point Julie. That's why discussion of death is important, so we can know how how life destroys death.  :dontknow:

What association has light with darkness? Sorry I do not have the Scripture.

2 Corinthians 6:4
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Do you stop and read your posts? You are so condescending and it is certainly not becomming of the Spirit of Truth and Love.

You entered the conversation and then admonished me not to speak about death. You seem to be OK challenging other people, but have a difficult time being challenged. You seem to take it as a personal affront.

[Graph1159]

James argued that saying "I believe in God" does not represent a saving faith because even the demons believe that. There are numerous people who say "I believe in God" but have no Biblical principles guiding their lives.

To give an example of a dead faith, James did not quote people saying, "I believe in Jesus as my Savior who died and rose from the dead to free me from enslavement to sin and reconcile me to God." The demons do not believe that.

After outlining the doctrine of justification by faith in Romans 3-5, Paul at the start of Ch. 6, addresses the question, "Shall we sin that grace may abound?" He responds to this carnal argument by reasoning that if we really reckon upon our deadness to sin and spiritual resurrection into new life, living a life of sin becomes an impossibility. If we really understand that we are dead to sin, how can we let disobedience dominate our lives? This understanding of the Cross and Resurrection has power to produce faithfulness that a mere belief in one God does not have.

Let me know what you think,
Samuel

[Seth]

Hi Graph, here are my thoughts.

The reckon yourselves dead to sin scripture often times gets misunderstood to mean reckon that which is not true as being true, then you will follow suit with your actions. If that were the case, then man could boast. He could say "I reckoned myself dead to sin, and it felt good so it changed my actions." Personal revelation is not what gives us freedom. The Holy Spirit gets all the credit.

The word reckon is from the greek logizomai which means to think or conclude, same as "reckon" but check out some usages:

Romans 3:23
Therefore we conclude (logizomai) that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Should a man only "reckon" that he is justified by faith without deeds of the Law or is it ACTUALLY true?

Romans 8:18
For I reckon (logizomai) that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Does that mean that Paul only "reckons" the suffering of the present time not comparable, in such a way that it's not true? The reason Paul says "reckon youselves dead to sin" is because he is using a METAPHOR:

physical death of Christ = dying to sin
resurrection of Christ = new life free from sin

Here is what he is saying: Just as Jesus died physically, likewise also reckon yourselves dead, but dead in a spiritual way, to sin.

This is not from human effort, but from the Holy Spirit. Take a look:

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

Baptism is all about the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is what causes freedom from sin. So, Paul is using this metaphor and continuing it through to tell them that just as Jesus died physically, reckon also yourselves dead in a spiritual way, to sin.

[jabcat]

I've agreed with much that's been shared in this discussion, while some things here and there I think would be hard to back up scripturally and are more of a manufactured ideology/wish than based on the Word.  IMO, that's one reason we need to be careful where we get our information and influence from, what we read and what voices we listen to - there's a lot of very pretty deceit out there. 

graph and Seth, I think you're both hitting (scripturally sound) nails on the head in the last 2 posts.  Yes, the devils believe.  But they haven't been drawn to the cross and given faith to believe on Jesus as their Savior.  As you mentioned in your post Seth, it's a work of the Holy Spirit.  I like to say, it's a miracle! 

Let me see if I can summarize some of my own understanding simply.  If need be, I can go get scriptural support, but again, simply-

without Jesus, we're spiritually dead and in darkness.  Everyone.  Serving the devil, children of wrath.

We need to come to a realization of that.  The old-timers call it being convicted, aka, being shown our nakedness ("there is none good, no not one").  Dead man walking.

When we're given faith to believe upon (trust HIS work on the cross/that He alone is Savior, depend on, adhere to) Jesus as Savior, then we're made alive and brought into the Light.

People need to be loved and receive kindness.  But if the Source of that is not revealed/shared at some opportune/Spirit-led point (ROMANS 10:14) and they're not given to respond in belief/trust in Jesus the Savior, then they're STILL dead and in darkness.  Loving and kindness is still important (we're told to do it, it flows from a heart close to the Savior) and it can open doors to point to the Savior.  But people need - no, they MUST be brought to the Savior.  Anything less is inadequate, and if it doesn't occur here through accepting the atonement now, it will need to occur later through the broad road to destruction.  We're called NOW to minister the word of reconciliation.  Jesus. Savior.

[Seth]

Amen 10 million times....

[JulieTang84]

I've agreed with much that's been shared in this discussion, while some things here and there I think would be hard to back up scripturally and are more of a manufactured ideology/wish than based on the Word.  IMO, that's one reason we need to be careful where we get our information and influence from, what we read and what voices we listen to - there's a lot of very pretty deceit out there. 

graph and Seth, I think you're both hitting (scripturally sound) nails on the head in the last 2 posts.  Yes, the devils believe.  But they haven't been drawn to the cross and given faith to believe on Jesus as their Savior.  As you mentioned in your post Seth, it's a work of the Holy Spirit.  I like to say, it's a miracle! 

Let me see if I can summarize some of my own understanding simply.  If need be, I can go get scriptural support, but again, simply-

without Jesus, we're spiritually dead and in darkness.  Everyone.  Serving the devil, children of wrath.

We need to come to a realization of that.  The old-timers call it being convicted, aka, being shown our nakedness ("there is none good, no not one").  Dead man walking.

When we're given faith to believe upon (trust HIS work on the cross/that He alone is Savior, depend on, adhere to) Jesus as Savior, then we're made alive and brought into the Light.

People need to be loved and receive kindness.  But if the Source of that is not revealed/shared at some opportune/Spirit-led point (ROMANS 10:14) and they're not given to respond in belief/trust in Jesus the Savior, then they're STILL dead and in darkness.  Loving and kindness is still important (we're told to do it, it flows from a heart close to the Savior) and it can open doors to point to the Savior.  But people need - no, they MUST be brought to the Savior.  Anything less is inadequate, and if it doesn't occur here through accepting the atonement now, it will need to occur later through the broad road to destruction.  We're called NOW to minister the word of reconciliation.  Jesus. Savior.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Gosh am I the ONLY one who sees the apparent paradox here?  :dontknow:

We were given two simple commandments:

Mat 22:36
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Mat 22:37
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

Mat 22:38
This is the first and greatest commandment.

Mat 22:39
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Mat 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

John 15:17 This is my command: That you Love one another.

We know that no one can reveal the source of LOVE, but Father himself. NO ONE can come to Jesus until Father himself draws this one to Him.

So what is that we must share/reveal ALWAYS? Spiritual FRUIT :dsunny:

Jesus promised us the Spirit and it certainly does bare fruit  :HeartThrob:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal 5:22, 23

These FRUITS are of ABSOLUTE importance.

Mat 7:16-20
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Yes there are many that speak as if they are enlightened, speaking as if they were sent from God specifically. We must be very careful as you say. For....  'These people honor me [Jesus] with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.  Mat 15:8

So this is where the rubber meets the road.......

We must Love, Shine on all (caring not about the speck in a bothers eye) and bear the Fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT that is within in everything that we do and say. Just as the ones without Spirit are easily recognizable, so to are those walking in the light of Truth.  :dsunny:

Jesus gave great counsel on this very subject.

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.  Mat 7:6

What Jesus is saying here is that don't throw Precious Truth to the masses like the evangelics do on the street corners or on TV. Jesus is saying: Treat my HOLY WORD with some respect!!!

Such as these cannot hear, even from times of old:  "You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ears have not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth."  Isa 48:8

Paul knew this: 

Rom 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

We should NEVER be surprised at this; Paul said in a letter to Timothy that many will ignore the truth (because they have not the ears to hear / Mark 4:23) and gather around them false prophets who will speak what their itching ears want to hear. (2Tim 4:3)

So what is it we must do then?  :dunno2:

Easy!!!!   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Love Unceasingly (Father and All alike) and radiate Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, that THROUGH "us" the full Glory of Father might be REVEALED in Father's Time and not ours.

All this while praying always for the greatest good for All and that FATHER sends our LOVE to where it is needed most. This is how the world will change, by *** BEING *** the SPIRIT of Love and all Truth, not peddlers of the HOLY WORD.

We know this because we were told not to throw pearls to pigs. We will also know when Father has opened / softened ones heart and they come to "you" open and honestly, asking to share the source of your peace, love and assurance.

A little light has begun to flicker.....They have come to to the right place, haven't they?   :dsunny:

Love Julie :HeartThrob: