The Hebrew Word for Faith (and it was fulfilled...)

[sheila]

He gives a strong delusion to those who do not beleive/love the truth...a cup of abominations......

    in Babylon's hands...why..they might even beleive they are doing God's will when they put

  you to death.   I speak now of the evil contrast spirt  who show themselves they are like God

and sit on the throne of God[man's flesh/Adam given dominion of earth]

    He tells them..ye sshall die like men....they have observed how man's flesh dissolves and turns

  back to dust...and know they shall be dissolved.   the delusion/ the shroud that God will remove

from of all faces....is the shroud of death that deceives the entire inhabited earth..even

the advesary/evil spirit contrast......

[JulieTang84]

What DEATH? Death is a lie spread by Satan and refuted by Jesus.  The only death is the DEATH of the old man.

1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


Death should be a word that is never heard on this forum because it is a lie.

No it is not a lie, it's real.

Take a look around you Julie. Rape in Sudan. Genocide in Rwanda and Germany. Kidnapping and murder of children in America. Forced sex slavery. Drug cartels in Mexico. Death and violence in the Middle East.

Are you kidding me? That's reaping death in sin and transgressions and it is REAL. It's HAPPENING TODAY.

Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.


I believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge. Some vessels were made for destruction. Thank Father with all your heart that so far you have not been. Live in the Spirit and by Faith dear Seth and see all of the shameful things as just a passing phase. Love the victim and the villain equally as we are given to do.


KNOW THESE THING MUST OCCUR!


So who has REALLY died that Father will not purify in time?


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

Great post! Julie!!!!!! :iagree:

[Seth]

Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.

So what if it isn't the end? So what if it's temporal?

People ARE DYING, spiritually and physically. It's real! So how do you say we should not speak of death when the Apostles speak extensively on the matter as a very real thing which can be healed by knowledge of Christ which is LIFE?

We MUST talk about death on this forum in order to talk about LIFE, who is Christ Jesus.

I believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge.

When did I ever say that these things must not occur or that they happened outside of His knowedge? You are making assumptive leaps.

I only said it is REAL. The only death is NOT the death OF the old man, but death IN the old man, which is the very reason Jesus kills the old man to bring the new one to life. When that happens, there is no more genocide, sexual slavery, cartels etc. The new man does away with all that for a new life. The Apostles knew it. Jesus knew it (and knows it) and the FATHER wants us to to help people. Ignorance of the very real condition of death is NOT how the scripture approaches it.

YOUR doctrine is to say death is a lie told by Satan. It's not a lie if it's REAL and it is real. That is not the doctrine we were brought from the Apostles who treated death as a very true and real and present condition from which they sought to save through the knowledge of Christ.

In fact, Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God, she would "NOT surely die." (Genesis 3:4). Satan wanted her to believe that death is a lie! He wanted her to believe that it was GOD who was lying about it. IF anything "death is a lie" is itself a lie refuted by God.

Without acknowledging death, you could NEVER bring the true Gospel to any soul who needs it, because you could never explain how death can be overcome through knowledge of Christ, and obedience to Christ leads to life from the dead.

[sheila]

2 Timothy 1;10  but it has now been revealed through the appearing of Our Saviour,Christ Jesus

who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

    All things are yours,whether life or death[due to Christ being Lord of the dead and living]

      Death is destroyed Seth.....what we perceive as death is really reaping process......the

  dust returning unto the dust[our body of dust] and the spirit/'life returning unto God.

    Rev 21...there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain/God himself will be

with them[O'Immanuel]

   each in our own order..... God has sown eternal life in man............the days are coming...

  declares the Lord,  where the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman,and the planter

by the one treading grapes.  Ne wine will drip from all the mountains and flow frm all the hills

    I will brink back my exiled people Israel...........I will plant Israel in their own land...

  never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them

[Seth]

2 Timothy 1;10  but it has now been revealed through the appearing of Our Saviour,Christ Jesus

who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

    All things are yours,whether life or death[due to Christ being Lord of the dead and living]

      Death is destroyed Seth.....what we perceive as death is really reaping process......the

  dust returning unto the dust[our body of dust] and the spirit/'life returning unto God.

Brought life and immortality to light THROUGH the Gospel.

There is an order to which all who die in Adam are brought to life in Christ. What we perceive as death is death, Sheila. Sins and transgressions result in death while alive. It's been as true as ever for centuries. It's a real spiritual condition and not all have been brought to life yet. If you look around at the world, you see it for yourself. It is death, and I will not shy away from talking about it, because there it is in front of me, temporal or not. People are hurting, temporal or not. Knowledge of Christ is what they need for LIFE.

1 Cor 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Paul understood that death is death and acceptance is life FROM the dead. It's not all an illusion. It's a real working of life into the dark soil of the land to bring forth fruit.

Of course the response always has to do with "time" vs "timelessness" a concept taught by Plato, not the scripture. The Apostles never spoke of death being something not to be integrated into the Gospel message, or connected to some kind of illusory existence. They always presented death as a condition overcome by Christ who has used the foolishness of preaching to bring life from the dead to all who believe, a plan which will be worked systematically in the earth until everyone is all in all with God.

You cannot discuss the Gospel without the concept of "life from the dead." So, I see no purpose in the admonition to speak nothing of it.

[sheila]

   out of one of them came another horn,which started small but grew in power tothe south

and to the east and toward the Beautiful land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens

   and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.

    It set itself up to be as great asthe Prince of the host[the gates of hell shall not prevail]

     it took away the daily sacrifice from him[how? the pattern is that lambs goats are offered daily

  at the temple...as soon as people die they rise to the Heavenly City..returning unto God]


   see heaven opened for Stephen at death]   AND the place of His sanctuary was brought low.

   Because of rebellion the hosts of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.

   the animals on the sheet and the edict  RISE PETER,KILL AND EAT..also shows that..men

of little or no understanding are taken back up to heaven after death....all ye ends of the earth

look unto me and be ye saved!!

   Father and Jesus do this continually...the gates of the heavenly city are always open.

   the law is fulfilled in Christ....He is the reality of the shadow and this is what goes on up there

every day.  the temple pattern was  designed to show the REALITY in Heaven through Christ.

[Seth]

I don't see the relevance to that Sheila. Maybe you are talking about physical death. Do you know there is another kind of death?

1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Death is much more than the physical body going to sleep. Life from the dead is to be renewed and quickened together with Christ.

Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to LIVE when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

This is not illusory. It's real. The solution is the Spirit, LIFE from the DEAD. This is why I brought up things like...oh I don't know....rape, murder, slavery, prostitution and on and on....

Why would I ever not talk about it?

[sheila]

yes,all in Adam were dead..through the transgression and the entering in of sin,Seth.....

    and just as through the one man...sin enetered..and death come to ALL men

,so,too through one man[Christ] shall the dead live.

     Christ 'quickens' that which is mortal..that is how life comes from the dead.....given a new birth...

.....and in the last days,I shall pour out my spirit on all flesh. a quickening spirit[last Adam]


   ....and I have no problem with you talking about it.Seth....but,in regard to Him tearing down the

wall between gentile[dead] and jew.[living]..........and making one new man of the two...I will just say this...

   ALL things are yours,whether Paul or Apolls,or Cephas or the world or  life or death...

or the present[temporal] or the future[eternal]- All are yours, and you are of Christ and Christ is of

God

[Seth]

Christ 'quickens' that which is mortal..that is how life comes from the dead.....given a new birth...

My message regarding "death" in these past few posts has to do with two kinds of quickening. One regarding LIFE and the other regarding IMMORTALITY. Life and immortality are not the same, thus the necessary distinction. An immortal can be dead while he liveth if he seeks after pleasure of the flesh and not after Christ.

The whole idea of faith in how the Hebrew undestood it is that belief-plus-obedience is the method by which the righteous have LIFE ("shall live"). We are brought to life through ENUMAH, and this regardless of immortality, which is a whole issue I am not focused on in this thread.

The core message that Paul brings when he quotes Genesis 15 is the same message James brought. Here, I will show:

Romans 4
12 And (Abraham is) the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

We are not simply to believe, but to walk in the step of the "faith of Abraham" or we are not his seed, for Christ himself heard but also obeyed, and he is the seed of the promise. That is life from the dead.

[JulieTang84]

[Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.

So what if it isn't the end? So what if it's temporal?

People ARE DYING, spiritually and physically. It's real! So how do you say we should not speak of death when the Apostles speak extensively on the matter as a very real thing which can be healed by knowledge of Christ which is LIFE?

We MUST talk about death on this forum in order to talk about LIFE, who is Christ Jesus.

Seth, please stop and listen to yourself: where are the fruits of the Spirit?

It's not real dear Brother. Satan would have you believe it is, for HE is the king of the world and HE is the Murderer and was from the beginning to quote Jesus. People are NOT dying Spiritually, why do you seek to over-rule Father and MOCK HIM???

Have you forgotten?  :Chinscratch:

Rom 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Rom 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"

If you truly believe YOU MUST speak of DEATH then so be it, BUT JESUS said he came to SAVE the world not CONDEMN it. Surely this is a much better message to teach regarding Fathers Love? I abhor your message of DEATH, and I will say DEATH and UR are as close as BLACK and WHITE.

I believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge.

When did I ever say that these things must not occur or that they happened outside of His knowedge? You are making assumptive leaps.

If you KNOW such things must occur then why are you acting so emotional about it. Are you somehow responsible? This is THE TIME to LOVE unceasingly; yes there are many who have no concept of Father. This is not their fault, nor yours or mine. No Sir,  I am not making assumptive leaps; your words and tone set the tone. If I was wrong please forgive me.

I only said it is REAL. The only death is NOT the death OF the old man, but death IN the old man, which is the very reason Jesus kills the old man to bring the new one to life. When that happens, there is no more genocide, sexual slavery, cartels etc. The new man does away with all that for a new life. The Apostles knew it. Jesus knew it (and knows it) and the FATHER wants us to to help people. Ignorance of the very real condition of death is NOT how the scripture approaches it.

You said it is REAL. You said people are dying. Are they dying to Father or to you????

It matters naught to FATHER if the old man dies in this life or in the age to come. This is what is meant when Father has mercy on whom he pleases and hardens whom he does not. Of course Jesus is responsible for one becoming reborn. Jesus is also responsible for whom finds Fathers Love and who does not. He said and I quote: "No one can come to Father unless through ME"  If Father does not show mercy to someone before one kills 100's ARE YOU asking FATHER WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS PERSON THIS WAY????????

You might believe that I am ignorant, you have that right. I do believe that we are told to LOVE Father first and foremost and LOVE EVERYONE as ourselves. LOVING FATHER means TRUSTING in ALL HE HAS PLANNED and NOT QUESTIONING or DOUBTING happens. DO you not realize, every bad thing that happens is an opportunity to LOVE and SHINE LIGHT in SPIRIT. Not worrying about it, but asking FATHER IN ALL HONESTY: Father, what is it that I can do to lessen everyones pain and bring them to you?  There is nothing else required other then being the LOVE that Jesus was/is.

YOUR doctrine is to say death is a lie told by Satan. It's not a lie if it's REAL and it is real. That is not the doctrine we were brought from the Apostles who treated death as a very true and real and present condition from which they sought to save through the knowledge of Christ.

In fact, Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God, she would "NOT surely die." (Genesis 3:4). Satan wanted her to believe that death is a lie! He wanted her to believe that it was GOD who was lying about it. IF anything "death is a lie" is itself a lie refuted by God.

I was wrong though, Father told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of life else they should die. MY MISTAKE

I have no time to argue with your childish assertions about my doctrine. Jesus said to be reborn; Paul told us that though the worst person may lose EVERYTHING, but will be saved by Fire. He also told us that it is FATHERS WILL that everyone be saved. DO you really think I am interested in hearing you rant about death. Father is the God of the LIVING not the dead, because NO ONE is dead to Father. Just dead to SIN.

IF NO ONE IS DEAD TO FATHER, NO ONE IS DEAD TO ME!!!!! 

Without acknowledging death, you could NEVER bring the true Gospel to any soul who needs it, because you could never explain how death can be overcome through knowledge of Christ, and obedience to Christ leads to life from the dead.

I refuse to acknowledge DEATH in order to bring the TRUE Gospel to any SOUL.

Paul said he became ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE in order to win some souls for Father. What did he use? Well I am guessing he used the measure of the SPIRIT he was given. Not DEATH But SPIRIT, FOR the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.  Col 5:22-23

These fruits are LIFE CHANGES in and of themselves. If you show Love and Joy to all you meet this wile bode well. Moreover, if you are patient (more so than you are with me) kind and are gentle, many will gladly listen to you. Self control, means controlling emotion and staying Faithful to the Spirit you have been given.

If someone should ask of why you are so happy, so sure of yourself and so at peace, then you can share with them the "Good News." that Jesus taught. Tell them about the Kingdom that is within them. Tell them of the peace and the Love that is promised. Tell them NO ONE dies to Father  and that they will surely see their loved ones again.

No other word concerning DEATH is need. Perhaps it is you who should take a very close look at your own doctrine.


I Love you brother. :HeartThrob:

We may have different perspectives but taking things personally is never a fruit of the Spirit.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

[Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.

So what if it isn't the end? So what if it's temporal?

People ARE DYING, spiritually and physically. It's real! So how do you say we should not speak of death when the Apostles speak extensively on the matter as a very real thing which can be healed by knowledge of Christ which is LIFE?

We MUST talk about death on this forum in order to talk about LIFE, who is Christ Jesus.

Seth, please stop and listen to yourself: where are the fruits of the Spirit?

It's not real dear Brother. Satan would have you believe it is, for HE is the king of the world and HE is the Murderer and was from the beginning to quote Jesus. People are NOT dying Spiritually, why do you seek to over-rule Father and MOCK HIM???

Have you forgotten?  :Chinscratch:

Rom 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Rom 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"

Satan spoke of death long before either Father or Jesus, if you truly believe YOU MUST speak of DEATH then so be it, BUT JESUS said he came to SAVE the world not CONDEMN it. Surely this is a much better message to teach regarding Fathers Love? I abhor your message of DEATH, and I will say DEATH and UR are as close as BLACK and WHITE.

I believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge.

When did I ever say that these things must not occur or that they happened outside of His knowedge? You are making assumptive leaps.

[color=brownIf you KNOW such things must occur then why are you acting so emotional about it. Are you somehow responsible? This is THE TIME to LOVE unceasingly; yes there are many who have no concept of Father. This is not their fault, nor yours or mine. No Sir,  I am not making assumptive leaps; your words and tone set the tone. If I was wrong please forgive me.[/color]

I only said it is REAL. The only death is NOT the death OF the old man, but death IN the old man, which is the very reason Jesus kills the old man to bring the new one to life. When that happens, there is no more genocide, sexual slavery, cartels etc. The new man does away with all that for a new life. The Apostles knew it. Jesus knew it (and knows it) and the FATHER wants us to to help people. Ignorance of the very real condition of death is NOT how the scripture approaches it.

You said it is REAL. You said people are dying. Are they dying to Father or to you????

It matters naught to FATHER if the old man dies in this life or in the age to come. This is what is meant when Father has mercy on whom he pleases and hardens whom he does not. Of course Jesus is responsible for one becoming reborn. Jesus is also responsible for whom finds Fathers Love and who does not. He said and I quote: "No one can come to Father unless through ME"  If Father does not show mercy to someone before one kills 100's ARE YOU asking FATHER WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS PERSON THIS WAY????????

You might believe that I am ignorant, you have that right. I do believe that we are told to LOVE Father first and foremost and LOVE EVERYONE as ourselves. LOVING FATHER means TRUSTING in ALL HE HAS PLANNED and NOT QUESTIONING or DOUBTING happens. DO you not realize, every bad thing that happens is an opportunity to LOVE and SHINE LIGHT in SPIRIT. Not worrying about it, but asking FATHER IN ALL HONESTY: Father, what is it that I can do to lessen everyones pain and bring them to you?  There is nothing else required other then being the LOVE that Jesus was/is.

YOUR doctrine is to say death is a lie told by Satan. It's not a lie if it's REAL and it is real. That is not the doctrine we were brought from the Apostles who treated death as a very true and real and present condition from which they sought to save through the knowledge of Christ.

In fact, Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God, she would "NOT surely die." (Genesis 3:4). Satan wanted her to believe that death is a lie! He wanted her to believe that it was GOD who was lying about it. IF anything "death is a lie" is itself a lie refuted by God.

I was wrong though, Father told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of life else they should die. MY MISTAKE

I have no time to argue with your childish assertions about my doctrine. Jesus said to be reborn; Paul told us that though the worst person may lose EVERYTHING, but will be saved by Fire. He also told us that it is FATHERS WILL that everyone be saved. DO you really think I am interested in hearing you rant about death. Father is the God of the LIVING not the dead, because NO ONE is dead to Father. Just dead to SIN.

IF NO ONE IS DEAD TO FATHER, NO ONE IS DEAD TO ME!!!!! 

Without acknowledging death, you could NEVER bring the true Gospel to any soul who needs it, because you could never explain how death can be overcome through knowledge of Christ, and obedience to Christ leads to life from the dead.

I refuse to acknowledge DEATH in order to bring the TRUE Gospel to any SOUL.

Paul said he became ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE in order to win some souls for Father. What did he use? Well I am guessing he used the measure of the SPIRIT he was given. Not DEATH But SPIRIT, FOR the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.  Col 5:22-23

These fruits are LIFE CHANGES in and of themselves. If you show Love and Joy to all you meet this wile bode well. Moreover, if you are patient (more so than you are with me) kind and are gentle, many will gladly listen to you. Self control, means controlling emotion and staying Faithful to the Spirit you have been given.

If someone should ask of why you are so happy, so sure of yourself and so at peace, then you can share with them the "Good News." that Jesus taught. Tell them about the Kingdom that is within them. Tell them of the peace and the Love that is promised. Tell them NO ONE dies to Father  and that they will surely see their loved ones again.

No other word concerning DEATH is need. Perhaps it is you who should take a very close look at your own doctrine.


I Love you brother. :HeartThrob:

We may have different perspectives but taking things personally is never a fruit of the Spirit.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie, it's pretty clear from the scripture that sinning against a brother is death. It's so clear, I don't even have to argue it.

1 John
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us (that's a DEED of obedience): and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

You may not want to acknowledge death, but John sure did, and that is good enough for me. And again I will say, love is in ACTION not in feeling or word....

Those who hate have no life but death abides in them...

[JulieTang84]

Julie, it's pretty clear from the scripture that sinning against a brother is death. It's so clear, I don't even have to argue it.

1 John
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us (that's a DEED of obedience): and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

You may not want to acknowledge death, but John sure did, and that is good enough for me. And again I will say, love is in ACTION not in feeling or word....

Those who hate have no life but death abides in them...

I have but one question: Who is so dead to Father that not even Father can purify?


Just name me one person and I will apologize for everything.


Just one.......

[Seth]

What are you talking about, Julie?

When did I ever say the Father cannot purify?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Seth]

Now I have a question for you. Do you believe that the book of 1 John is inspired by the Holy Spirit as truth which cannot be broken?

[JulieTang84]

Answer mine dear Seth and you will have the answer to your question better than I ever could.

Love Julie. :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I already answered it. Your question has a faulty premise. It assumes I believe that the Father cannot purify anyone he wishes. That's a false premise making your question unanswerable. It's like saying "Do you enjoy beating your wife?" If I say "no" I admit I beat my wife. If I say "yes," I admit I beat my wife. The truth is I do not beat my wife in the first place. Ask me a question without the false assumption and I can answer it truthfully.

[JulieTang84]

No Sir, there is not faulty premise to my question. You just dodged it,


Who is dead to Father that He cannot purify? NO ONE!!!!


Do I Believe that 1 John is inspired by the Holy Spirit..........? Of course. But clearly I am taking it's meaning as Spiritual where you appear to taking it literally.


If NO ONE IS DEAD to Father, our view of death MUST CHANGE.


This it the plain and simple truth.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

No Sir, there is not faulty premise to my question. You just dodged it,


Who is dead to Father that He cannot purify? NO ONE!!!!

It's a faulty premise because it assumes that I believe that Father cannot purify. You asked me to find an example of someone God cannot purify. Why would I want to do that when I don't believe in his lack of ability in the first place? Makes no sense to me.

The MANNER in which God purifies is the point of the OP. ENUMAH brings life from the dead.

If NO ONE IS DEAD to Father, our view of death MUST CHANGE.

Colossians 1
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Alienation occurs IN THE MIND through wicked works. Jesus reconciled us through his death in order to resurrect us BY HIS LIFE - that is the indwelling of Christ by the Spirit, which is why Paul says IF you continue in the faith and be not moved away....THAT is ENUMAH....

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself by the Cross, and the doing away of the old covenant. HOWEVER, the reconciliation of our MINDS to GOD occurs in the body of his flesh (the Body of Christ) through death (see Romans 6 about the death of the old man and freedom from sin) to reconcile our minds to God.

Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Carnally minded = death
Spiritually minded = life

It's all about what occurs in the mind.

They are not dead TO God but are alienated from him IN THEIR MINDS through wicked works. That is death indeed. John, Paul, Peter, James and Jesus talked about it, and so will I.

Do I Believe that 1 John is inspired by the Holy Spirit..........? Of course. But clearly I am taking it's meaning as Spiritual where you appear to taking it literally.

Not quite sure what this means. Clearly John is talking about death as a metaphor for a spiritual condition of carnal mindedness. I don't take that to be literal death of the body either. What's also clear is that John is speaking in great detail about death, something you think I should avoid. :dontknow:

[JulieTang84]

The mind is an attribute of the body, of this realm. Yes people die in the physical sense, but not spiritually.

When living in the spirit and worshiping in the spirit, death is just a phase we all must go through. It is not an option likely anyone escaping it.

But death in any form in this realm is just a closing of a chapter, nothing mote and nothing less.

Of course our emotions and love are hurt, but our trust is in Father, not our loss.

The simple truth is that spiritually. No one dies.

Can you ses this?

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

The mind is an attribute of the body, of this realm. Yes people die in the physical sense, but not spiritually.

When living in the spirit and worshiping in the spirit, death is just a phase we all must go through. It is not an option likely anyone escaping it.

But death in any form in this realm is just a closing of a chapter, nothing mote and nothing less.

Of course our emotions and love are hurt, but our trust is in Father, not our loss.

The simple truth is that spiritually. No one dies.

Can you ses this?

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

Again, you are getting away from my point, especially the point of the OP. Death of the body (physical death) is a METAPHOR for carnal mindedness and alienation from God - in the mind - through wicked works...

This is a condition you seem unwilling to acknowledge though you claim that 1 John is inspired scripture.

That's the point of the OP and the entire discussion. You have shown me no reason why I should avoid talking about "death in transgressions and sin" when the Apostles do so extensively and in great detail, often to include the cure for death which is "spiritual mindedness."

[JulieTang84]

No problem Seth. Father has you on a different road than I.

Jesus said he would send the comforter to remind us of al the things he taught He is my saviour and the saviour if the whole world. You may certainly speak of death as much as you like, I will keep silent; I will not like it but I don't have too do I.  :HeartThrob:

Worship in Spirit requires a new mind and heart for the old has passed away.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

When I came to the truth that all would be saved, I realized that taking another person's word of truth about the Gospel as fact had been a mistake that had a significant impact on my life. Now, I compare what people tell me to the scripture to see if they are correct, or if I am correct. Sometimes, I have notions or thoughts and a scripture pops into my head which debunks my notion immediately.

In this conversation, I believe I have spoken words consistent with what the Bible says about death and life. And I have no problem agreeing with you that the Father has us on completely different paths. Peace.

[jabcat]

Until specifically, spiritually reborn, I believe all are dead.  Some will be spiritually brought to Life in this age, most in the next.  Every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus. 

Speaking to believers in the ecclesia at Ephesus;

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," (Eph. 2:1-5, NKJV).

[jabcat]

Paul said he was crucified and that he died daily.  However, he also said in I Corinthians 15 that even though in Adam all died, there is a process of God becoming all in all.  He will put an end to all death, the last enemy to be destroyed.