The Hebrew Word for Faith (and it was fulfilled...)

[Seth]

I found recently that the Hebrew word for "faith" is enumah best translated as faithfulness or loyalty. It is rooted in the idea of being made firm or strong. Excerpts:

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"...it was Habakkuk who gave the one essential commandment: v'tzaddik be'emunato yich'yeh, literally, "the righteous, by his faithfulness - shall live."  In the New Testament, the apostle Paul had (earlier) distilled the various commandments of the Torah to this same principle of faith (see Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38).

This small phrase, consisting of only three Hebrew words, is perhaps the pivotal axis upon which our salvation turns, since it distills the requirement that we are justified by our faith in God, and not by "works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).

The Hebrew word translated as "faith" (emunah, derived from the Hebrew root 'aman, meaning to nourish, to make firm and strong), is perhaps better translated as "faithfulness" or "loyalty," rather than "belief" in something (i.e., intellectual assent). Emunah suggests perseverance, fidelity, and steadfastness -- notwithstanding appearances or circumstances that might tempt us to waver or hesitate in our commitment.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Meditations/By_Faith/by_faith.html

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With all that in mind I refer you to James:

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Both Paul and James reference the same scripture. Paul references it in Romans 4:

Genesis 15:6
"And he believed (Hebrew - aman) in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Where we in the Western World have gotten this twisted is in our understanding of belief, as in an intellectual acceptance of a proposition. No, the Jews had a different idea of faith.

Here is the Strong's definition of AMAN:

H539 — Strong - "aman"
"A primitive root; properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right."

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In Romans 4, I assure you, Paul understood this meaning and he had no difference with James about it. They were both Jews, and they both understood that there is no difference between faith and doing what God wants, which is why faith without works is dead. Justification by faith means justification by being FAITHFUL, STEDFAST and TRUE to God and continuing in his word, not simply accepting a proposition as a truth.

[Lazarus Short]

THAT WAS EXCELLENT!  :iagree:

My mind is drawn by this to Martin Luther finding this in his Bible:  The just shall live by faith.  This one thing caused a shift in Christianity which still reverberates.

I am waiting for this to sink in with Christians:  We shall be like Him.

Like this:   :gimmefive:

Not like this:   :punish:

[gregoryfl]

I agree with Lazarus. A very good word Seth. I enjoyed reading that. There is another phenomenon that is also seen and understood from the original writers' vantagepoint from the East, which is typically not understood in the West, which has to do with the question...'Who's faith?' I wrote a piece on that and hope it is ok to reproduce it here, as it adds support to what you wrote:

yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
(Gal 2:16 WEB (R))

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
(Gal 2:20 WEB (R))

But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:21-22 WEB (R))

Reading these verses in a standard translation, it appears clear that:

1. Justification comes by our placing our faith in Christ. (we might be justified by faith in Christ)

2. This occurs by our believing in him. (we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ)

3. We live by our faith in him, as an intellectual assent of belief. (That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God)

Based on this, I have heard it said that it is only by placing our faith in him, (a faith that is defined as being necessary because of things not seen) that we experience salvation. In other words, we live by our faith in him because we do not currently see him, yet believe he exists.

Peter indeed had this in mind when he wrote:

whom not having known you love; in whom, though now you don't see him, yet believing, you rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory--
(1Pe 1:8 WEB (R))

And, the prophet seems to agree:

Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith.
(Hab 2:4 WEB (R))

I have always been taught that the righteous living by his faith was referring to us, all who believe in him. However, when this verse is quoted by the first century writers, notice how they consistently quote it:

For in it is revealed God's righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith."
(Rom 1:17 WEB (R))

Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by faith."
(Gal 3:11 WEB (R))

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
(Heb 10:38 WEB (R))

Notice that the word 'his' is not in any of the quotes. I wanted to understand why that word was missing, so I thought that perhaps they were quoting from the Septuagint, or from a Hebrew manuscript upon which the Septuagint was based, which didn't have the word 'his'. So I looked it up and this is what I found:

If he should draw back, My soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by My faith.
(Hab 2:4 Complete Apostles' Bible)

Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised. The translators of the Septuagint understood something that most modern translators today totally miss - the faith that the just live by is not theirs, but HIS!

Now that we have this as an understanding, let me add one more piece of information that helps tie everything together, and forms the foundation upon which my initial question "Who's Faith" can be built.

Concerning Jesus, he is the only human to ever live a life totally just before his Father. His life was a reflection of perfect faithfulness. No other human could say that. It is for that reason, I believe that the 'just' or 'righteous' one who lives by his (God's) faith, is first and foremost referring, not to men at all, but to A MAN, Jesus Christ.

Therefore:

'The righteous (Jesus) will live by his faith' (better translated as faithfulness as this is not about belief, but a life lived).

It can also be equally said that the faith ultimately is from the Father, so that it is the Father's faithfulness that Jesus lived by. Here is his own definition of faithfulness:

Jesus therefore answered them, "Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(Joh 5:19 WEB (R))

Faithfulness cannot be separated from utter dependence, lived out in actual experience. Faith does not exist in a vacuum of nothingness.

So what about us? Does Habakkuk apply to us in any way? Yes it does. We have been justified. Therefore, we live by faith. But as I mentioned earlier, it is not our faith, for in ourselves, we do not even have faith the size of a mustard seed. I know this because I have never seen anyone move a mountain by speaking to it. :)

The faithfulness we live by is his faith - the faith of God expressed through his faithful son.

This is purely conjecture, but perhaps the reason that all of those writers who quoted from the Habakkuk passage took out the word 'his' was to avoid anyone mistaking the faith as coming from themselves as a source; since at the time the quotes were written, there were many others who now shared in the justification brought about by Jesus, and could in that sense apply the Habakkuk passage to themselves.

What then, of the first passages I quoted in the beginning? If we are living by Jesus faithfulness...if we are just by his faithfulness...how does that square with those passages that speak of OUR faith IN him?

Here are the same verses again, but this time I am putting them with a literal translation that says something slightly different:

yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
(Gal 2:16 WEB (R))
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
(Gal 2:16 CLV)


I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
(Gal 2:20 WEB (R))
With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me."
(Gal 2:20 CLV)


But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:21-22 WEB (R))
yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:22 CLV)

1...faith in Christ...
2...faith of Christ...

1...faith in the Son of God...
2...faith that is of the Son of God...

1...faith in Jesus Christ...
2...Jesus Christ's faith...

Although the majority of today's translations read according to view 1, there are several that read according to view 2.

Why then the difference in renderings? Here is what the Greek says, which I have laid out word by word, underneath of which I have also rendered the Aramaic Pecrapta, another ancient rendering of the script, for a comparison which is made even more clear:

dia (through) 
pisteos (faith) 
iesos (Jesus)
xristos, (Christ)
(Rom 3:22 Translit)

ביד (by)
הימנותא (the faith)
הי (is)
דישוע (of Jesus)
משיחא (the Messiah)
(Rom 3:22 Pesh)

dia (through) 
pisteos (faith) 
iesos (Jesus)
xristos, (Christ) 
kai (and) 
emeis (we) 
eis (into) 
xriston (Christ)
iesosn (Jesus) 
episteusamen, (believed)
ina (that)
dikaiothomen (we are justified)
ek (out)
pisteos (faith) 
xristos (Christ)
(Gal 2:16 Translit)

בהימנותא (in faithfulness)
דישוע (of Jesus)
משיחא (the Messiah)
אפ (also)
חננ (we)
בה (in him)
בישוע (in Jesus)
משיחא (the Messiah)
הימננ (we believed)
דמנ (of from)
הימנותה (the faithfulness)
דמשיחא (of the Messiah)
נזדדק (we are justified)
(Gal 2:16 Pesh)

en (in) 
pistei (faith) 
zo (I am living) 
to (to the one) 
tos (of the) 
uios (son)
tos (of the) 
theos (God)
(Gal 2:20 Translit)


בהימנותא (in faith)
הו (that)
דברה (of son)
דאלהא (of the God)
(Gal 2:20 Pesh)

I want you to notice 2 things. First of all, there is no preposition 'en' (in) or 'eis' (into) between the words faith and Jesus and or Christ. So when you read the phrase 'faith in Christ', 'faith in Jesus Christ', and 'faith in the Son of God', in most of the modern translations, the word 'in' is not in the text. It was added by the translators because of what they believe the text means. Ask most people, and they will tell you that it is faith IN Jesus that justifies...that it is by faith in him that we live. This is because of not only what they have been taught, but also what their particular translation of the Scriptures says. I can understand completely why most would believe this today.

The reason I also gave the Aramaic reading is because, unlike the Greek, we have an even more definitive reason for believe that the proper translation is 'of' rather than 'in.' In Aramaic, there are several prepositions that are attached to the beginning of words. Two common ones that are seen in these texts are:

ב (in)
ד (of)

The ב originally was a pictograph of a home, which is meant for someone to be IN, or WITH; hence its reason for being used as the preposition meaning 'in'.

The ד originally was a pictograph of a door, which is meant to connect the inside to the outside; hence its reason for being used as the preposition meaning 'of', relating two things together.

If you look at the texts, you will see that in every case the faith is ד (of) Jesus, and ד (of) the Messiah, and ד (of) the son. I have underlined and enlarged each case of the ב and ד used as a preposition. This leaves us with no doubt.

Depending on how you read it, one of these readings has man as the cause, the other has Messiah as the cause. Which is consistent with the message of scripture? Which is consistent with what we have seen concerning the Habakkuk passage? Which truly gives us no room for boasting and gives God the glory due him?

I will leave that for you to answer.

Ronen

[sheila]

indeed...if there be one righteous man in the city....the whole city is saved...PRAISE BE TO GOD

  THAT PROVIDED THAT PROMISED SEED[ONE RIGHTEOUS MAN] THROUGH WHOM WE ALL MAY

        ................LIVE BEFORE HIM.

[sheila]

.. FOR ALL THE PEOPLE.GOOD NEWS..FOR UNTO YOU A SON IS GIVEN..........

    ......can a nation be born in one day?...OH,YES!!!! On that day...all that were dead in ADAM

  were born again from above.....through that SON....'I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE"

     THAT ALL WHO BELEIVE IN ME SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE....

      But Jerusalem said...'but I am alone and rejected..desolate...with no-one passing through..."

      the Lord has forgotten me.......[all the dead in Adam]...........

       Though she may forget,I WIL NOT FORGET YOU!!

    SEE!  I HAVE ENGRAVED YOU ON THE PALM OF MY HANDS[behold the nail]     

   Your walls are ever before me.   Your sons hasten back...and those who laid you

waste depart from you..............

   ....then you will say..who bore me these?  I was bereaved and barren; I was exiled

   and rejected[Adam/Eve cast out of garden]  Who brought these up?

  I was left all alone.  But these,where have they come from?

   SEE, I will beckon to the gentiles..they will bring your sons in their armsm and your  daughters

  on their shoulders.

    THOSE WHO HOPE IN ME WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.

   

[Seth]

Yes, we are given the faith of Christ as a gift, so that salvation from death in trespasses and sins becomes all of God and none of man. Paul brings it all together in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It gets back to what Paul said about the inward salvation from sin and how it should be manifested outwardly:

Philipians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is how Abraham was justified before God. It wasn't because he intellectually believed the proposition that God exists (for even the demons believe). It was because Abraham DID what God commanded. His faith therefore was faithfulness, or loyalty.

This is what it means to have LIFE from the dead by faith. This is why Rahab was saved (not from hell, but from the destruction of the city). She was saved not because she only intellectually took for truth the proposition that God exists, but she ACTED in accordance and was therefore justified.

The key point between Abraham and Rahab is this: Neither were obeying works of the Law of Moses. There was no letter which told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. No written Law told Rahab to give quarter to the Jewish scouts. This was all done by ENUMAH, loyalty, fidelity, stedfastness, and therefore the works of obedience by faith which made them justified before God.

[JulieTang84]

Put simply, I have always understood Faith to be the marriage between Love and Trust.  :friendstu:

Pro 3:5  -  Trust Father with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

Mat 22:37 - Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

What is Faith without Love and Trust? I would say nothing more than a belief. Which is why faith means so little in the church today.

Yet, Faith is the product of being born again. It is more, much more than a belief; it is KNOWING without reason. For until one can loosen ones understanding enough to TRUST Father in all things. Love is little more than a four letter word. Father is the bringer of all Peace and Light, a light that clears the mind and the heart for Love of Father and all things to permeate ones soul.

Faith is the dwelling place of spirit.

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.   

Rom 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,fn just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

2Cr 5:7
For we live by faith, not by sight.

For we live by faith in SPIRIT and not the LAW.  :girlheart:

Gal 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

Gal 3:11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."

Living by Faith is a state of being and something that could never be bought or sold. It is a precious gift given only by Father.

Rom 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Father Loves us!!!

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

actually,Abraham was deemed righteous through the promised seed[Isaac/through Sarah] and

through no actions of his own. For Abraham,sought to fulfill the mandate through a natural means

  and through Hagaar brought forth Ishmael

If you will recall that it was at the time of the destruction ofSodom and Gomarah,that Sarah was told

she would conceive.....it is this...promised seed of God that brings deliverance from judgement...

and the declartion of righteousness......  a full reading of this account..the city to be destroyed

...the finding of someone righteous in the city...the promised son[born of those reckned dead]

  the tesst of Abraham..who did not hold back his son.....this is where the faith of Abraham

counted to him as righteous from the Lord comes from....that God can raise the dead if He so

please...through the promised seed/son given

[Seth]

Put simply, I have always understood Faith to be the marriage between Love and Trust.  :friendstu:

Pro 3:5  -  Trust Father with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

Mat 22:37 - Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

What is Faith without Love and Trust? I would say nothing more than a belief. Which is why faith means so little in the church today.

Yet, Faith is the product of being born again. It is more, much more than a belief; it is KNOWING without reason. For until one can loosen ones understanding enough to TRUST Father in all things. Love is little more than a four letter word. Father is the bringer of all Peace and Light, a light that clears the mind and the heart for Love of Father and all things to permeate ones soul.

To me, what James is teaching is that "faith" is a combination of BELIEF and OBEDIENCE. That's what loyalty, stedfastness and fidelity is all about. That is why Abraham was justified before God. It's not simply that he believed in God, or knew God in a Western intellectual sense, but that Abraham was stedfast with God. He obeyed.

Peter warned that some of Paul's teachings were difficult to understand and therefore people were twisting his teaching to their own destruction. James is providing the Greek Gentiles (from a culture which stressed intellectualism) an explanation of what it means to be "justified by ENUMAH (faith)". It does not mean intellectual acceptance of the proposition that Christ exists and died for us. It's more than that. It's a loyalty to God through obedience which justifies, not obedience to the Law of Moses which is not of ENUMAH, but is reliant on the self.

[Seth]

actually,Abraham was deemed righteous through the promised seed[Isaac/through Sarah] and

through no actions of his own.

According to James, Abraham was justified (righteous) by works when he offered Isaac as an offering. This is in accordance to what Paul said about justification apart from works OF THE LAW in Romans 4. Nobody is justified by works of the Law, but by ENUMAH, faith PLUS obedience.

[sheila]

  the 'justified' works of Abraham..was the work of God..not of himself............he and Sarah's

body was as good as dead...Isaac was not the result of a dead work[flesh of man] but of

a prmised seed from God.

   God showed through Abraham what He was/would do...and thus Abraham beleived Him

    which was counted as righteousness.........the work of God is to beleive.....in the one He sent

    God does the works..so no flesh[ even Abrahams] can boast..actually Abraham's flesh brought

forth Ishamael[wild donkey of a man] whose hand is against every other man...we see this

spiritual type all the time.   what you see as Abraham's 'works' I see as God himself fulfilling

His word./promise in and to them.

     the people's labour is but fuel for the fire..they labour in vain[vanity]......

  who of you,by taking thought,is able to add one cubit to your stature[creature subjected to

vanity].........neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything..but God who makes it grow.

        was t God who caused Abraham to will and do his pleasure? Yes...did God reveal Himself

to Abraham yes, did God choose Abraham for noble purpose? Yes! Did God fulfill all His word

given unto Abraham? Yes!!  Did God set Abraham as an example in the scripture for all those

who beleive and put faith in Him? YES!!!  Did God justify Abraham? YES!! and how was

Abraham justified? By God fulfilling His word/promises to him.Calling him freind..for He shared

what He was doing with Abraham..in regard to what was just......from the inspection of

Sodom and Gomorrha/angels sent/crowd that tried to sodomize them....to Lot who was

tormented by their filthy conversations while he dwelt among them........to the BIRTH/RIGHT

of the promised seed.

    Listen t your wife!!  who said..cast out that bond woman and her son..they shall not inherit....

and what was the inheritance but the fulfilled promises of God.

     

[Seth]

I don't have much of a difference with what you are saying insofar as what Sarah and Hagar represent. Sarah represents the FREEDOM from sin according to ENUMAH (faith + obedience) whereas HAGAR represents the Law of Moses. No man is justified by works of the LAW. We need to separate the things which differ. I am not saying that Abraham was justified by works of the LAW. That is not what James is saying either.

This is what justified Abraham and Rahab:

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds,and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

All this is in type and shadow. It's God who gives us the faith, and it is God who both wills and works of his good pleasure. It's all of God so that no man may boast.

[JulieTang84]

To me, what James is teaching is that "faith" is a combination of BELIEF and OBEDIENCE. That's what loyalty, stedfastness and fidelity is all about. That is why Abraham was justified before God. It's not simply that he believed in God, or knew God in a Western intellectual sense, but that Abraham was stedfast with God. He obeyed.

Peter warned that some of Paul's teachings were difficult to understand and therefore people were twisting his teaching to their own destruction. James is providing the Greek Gentiles (from a culture which stressed intellectualism) an explanation of what it means to be "justified by ENUMAH (faith)". It does not mean intellectual acceptance of the proposition that Christ exists and died for us. It's more than that. It's a loyalty to God through obedience which justifies, not obedience to the Law of Moses which is not of ENUMAH, but is reliant on the self.

Well said Seth. Obedience is also a fruit of Love and Trust, as it would be nigh on impossible to obey someone I neither loved or trusted. Obedience relates to what I said: about living in a state of faithful being that could never be bought or sold. Obedience in the truest sense is not an obligation, or a sentence. It is just another example of living in Spirit, filled with peace and love. Things that were are no longer and one would rather die than to be unfaithful to Father.

Living by Faith is far different than by Law and I never need to hold a bible in my hand to demonstrate my Love, Trust or Faith in Father. My actions speak louder than any word I could ever say. By this I know my Faith is measured in they eyes of others.

Thanks,


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

as the body without spirit is dead.......that's it in a nutshell...and what is that spirit..but

  the same spirit of Christ/God.....that causes you to do His good pleasure.

      the wind blows where it may..and no-ne knows where it is coming from and where it goes

   so,too, those born along of the spirit.    so..will you realize where those deeds come from...

  or where they shall go[end up..be fulfilled..the end of the matter]    for this reason we

are instructed to judge nothing before the appinted time[deeds?]  for He says...by My spirit

and 'my word that goes ut from me does not return void[or fail to suceed in what I sent it for]

    For if they had known...they would not of crucified the Lord of Glory.

....and always...the child born of the natural[IshmAEL]  persecutes the child born of the promise

       

[Seth]

Well said Seth. Obedience is also a fruit of Love and Trust, as it would be nigh on impossible to obey someone I neither loved or trusted. Obedience relates to what I said: about living in a state of faithful being that could never be bought or sold. Obedience in the truest sense is not an obligation, or a sentence. It is just another example of living in Spirit, filled with peace and love. Things that were are no longer and one would rather die than to be unfaithful to Father.

Yes, and this goes back to what Paul talked about in Romans 2, how that things of the Law can be done by the Gentiles by nature, even though they do not have the Law.

Rom 2:12-14
For there is no respect of persons with God (either Jew or Gentile). For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.)

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

Paul is talking to the Jews and is saying both Jew and Gentile will reap the judgment of death upon themselves whether sinning without the Law, or sinning in the Law. Either way death results, and ONLY those who BOTH hear and DO the things of the Law will be justified before God.

But how can we do that if we are not under the LAW?

Great question. Paul answers it: "BY NATURE." Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness etc. Those things can be done according to walking in the Spirit without the Law, and therefore the DOERS of the Law are justified, even though they are not under it. I think this speaks to what Sheila is also saying. It is all of God. The "nature" is GIVEN to us by God who also gives us the faith so that no man may boast.

[sheila]

 in regard to obedience...Love'/Spirit  keeps no record of the offense.  how is that?

  because it hopes all things..beleives all things........that through Christ,God was not

counting their tresspasses against them...but giving freely His promised spirit.  That spirit.....

writes in our minds and hearts His thoughts and His will..and that same spirit causes us to

move and do His good pleasure.

    show compassion to those that fear or doubt..it is no longer I,but the sin that dwells in me...

  remember this when you desire to censure some-one in their dis-obedience...

  and remeber Peter,when you say..even if all these should forsake thee Lord not I.

    a stricken spirit..who can bear?  I will strike the shepherd..and then turn my hands unto

the scattered sheep.

     a crushed spirit He will not reject.

    the spirit is willing...but the flesh is weak..[how to do the good that I desire/and that I do not

wish I do]

[Seth]

show compassion to those that fear or doubt..it is no longer I,but the sin that dwells in me...

  remember this when you desire to censure some-one in their dis-obedience...

Wait a minute. Who am I censuring? I am simply reconciling the doctrine of Paul with the doctrine of James and showing them to be compatible as to the Hebrew understanding of faith. Have I literally said anything in contrary to what they brought to the churches? If not, then why judge my motives?

[Seth]

Those who sin either with or without the Law are not having their sins counted against them, but are creating their own death, which Christ came to deliver from.  :dontknow:

[sheila]

no, it wasn't even about your'e post.  it was in regard to Julie's statement...'would rather

die then be unfaithful" I put what I said in there to bring up these things........let he who

thinks he is standing beware,lest he fall.....' etc      the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

........you can find yourself like Peter real quick...no matter how it burns in your'e heart to obey

        remeber that when you censure someone.......you will know them by their fruit/deeds

       ...there is always a tendency to go too far one way..and not be balanced


           Peter's  zeal of not disowning/denying the Lrd..of being loyal unto death..was put there

for our example.  Judge not lest ye be judged..was given to us..cause we may find ourselves

not obedient at times...just like Peter...and just like all of us do.  But..really I would rather speak

of such a crushed spirit when that occurrs...how the Lord come and strengthened Peter[not

counting his falling short against him]  thus I wrote..a crushed spirit He will not reject...and

remeber that when you censure someone[obedience always seems to be the   touchstone]

    censure- form an opionion or judgement..............

[Seth]

Oh, sorry, I misread what you were referring to. I said "huh? where did that come from?"  :laughing7: My bad.

As to the above I totally agree. "LORD WILLING" is at the tip of my tongue always to remind me not to rest on my own understanding of even myself. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God understands us better than even we understand ourselves. I go this way or that way, Lord willing...

[sheila]

  well, it's just that when I hear something like that..which Julie spoke......I have a real

personal expierence with it.  Iv'e been there..done that !!  and don't wish it on anyone.

     I come from such a legalistic religious institution...and myself did that very censuring[in

my thoughts] I was two-fold the child of hell

  so I have sort of a knee-jerk kind of reaction to it. He got it out of me..but

it was rough going..........

[JulieTang84]

What are we? Who can stand up to Father? Do we beg for mercy or Live the best we way know (given to?)

Isa 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Those who sin either with or without the Law are not having their sins counted against them, but are creating their own death, which Christ came to deliver from.  :dontknow:

What DEATH? Death is a lie spread by Satan and refuted by Jesus.  The only death is the DEATH of the old man.

1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


Death should be a word that is never heard on this forum because it is a lie.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Sheila, I know what you are talking about. When Paul recommended expulsion from the church, it was for things that harmed other people (a man sleeping with his father's wife). The church gets legalistic when they forget that loving your neighbor fulfills all the law. The 10 Commandments are all about loving your neighbor, so don't steal, don't covet, don't bear false witness.

The church tends to turn it around to, don't wear shorts in church, don't watch a rated R film, don't smoke a cigarette, and on and on and on, a litany of requirements and judgments which have NOTHING to do with loving your neighbor. You can do all three things above and not be led into sin by them, because true sin is walking outside of loving eachother.

A new commandment Jesus gave: Love eachother as I have loved you. That's not in the Law of Moses, but it will fulfill the Law of Moses.

[Seth]

What DEATH? Death is a lie spread by Satan and refuted by Jesus.  The only death is the DEATH of the old man.

1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


Death should be a word that is never heard on this forum because it is a lie.

No it is not a lie, it's real.

Take a look around you Julie. Rape in Sudan. Genocide in Rwanda and Germany. Kidnapping and murder of children in America. Forced sex slavery. Drug cartels in Mexico. Death and violence in the Middle East.

Are you kidding me? That's reaping death in sin and transgressions and it is REAL. It's HAPPENING TODAY.

[JulieTang84]

no, it wasn't even about your'e post.  it was in regard to Julie's statement...'would rather

die then be unfaithful" I put what I said in there to bring up these things........let he who

thinks he is standing beware,lest he fall.....' etc      the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

........you can find yourself like Peter real quick...no matter how it burns in your'e heart to obey

        remeber that when you censure someone.......you will know them by their fruit/deeds

       ...there is always a tendency to go too far one way..and not be balanced

Paul said very clearly that his heart wanted one thing and his body something else. Just wha are we kidding. We must never forget that we are but children and it is a sad child (and parent) when the child does not care if the parent is displeased or not. Father is not Sad as he has put disobedience in our hearts, lest we should ever boast. Just to be clear, being "FAITHFUL" to Father is NEVER forgetting that I am a marred vessel. I am NOT perfect and should never pretend to be. I sin, we all do. I am so grateful for everything Father for everything given me. Should I ever forget all that He has done, then surely I am being unfaithful to His love and grace.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: