Christmas (again)

[dajomaco]

The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. You may want to consider your tradition as your very own re-enactment of ancient Babylonian worship. This is what you have learned from the Babylonians, how they worship their gods.

If we look at this issue up side down and inside out.

At a meeting lets say a meeting of witches.
The head witch says to the new witches,

Do not participate in any way in Halloween
I know you where brought in the tradition.
That Halloween was a time for witches to celebrate.

Did you witches know that Halloween was actually a
Christian  celebration.
So I know that not celebrating Halloween is going to difficult for
some of you .
The danger in celebrating Halloween, is that since this tradition
has Christian origins .Those that celebrate Halloween might turn into Christians

We have to stay away from any thing that has   

[Graph1159]

A weak conscience does not make for a weak person. That is not what Apostle Paul meant with his use of the term. We are told not to lead a brother into that which he believes is harmful, so I would never encourage anyone to celebrate Christmas if they think it will displease God.

Very well said.

Anyway, attending pagan festivals would be perfectly fine. In 1 Cor 8:10, paul says we can even be "dining in an idol's temple". So it's not even just the meat. You can actually go and sit in the temple of a false god, eat the meal with the pagan, and not have a harmed conscience.

I'm glad you brought this up Seth because I have been confused about it for a long time. Paul seems to contradict himself on the idol meat question. In Chapter 8 he does imply that someone could eat in a temple with a clean conscience. But in Chapter 10 verse 28, he says that if you know a piece of meat has been sacrificed to idols, don't eat it. Earlier in the chapter he wrote,
"Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?"

The argument seems to be that if you know that the meat has been sacrificed to idols, then to eat it is to participate in paganism. But how does this square with Chapter 8?

[Seth]

It goes back to why you abstain from eating the meat when you know that has been sacrificed to idols. The reason Paul gives is not to preserve your own conscience but for care of another. We don't want to validate the worship of Satan or of false idols.so clearly when Paul is speaking about a rousing gods jealousy he is talking about not participating in those practices with the intent of your heart to do the same as the pagans. that is why we would never make sacrifices to the gods as they do because we do not believe in those gods. you cannot make a sacrifice to that what you do not believe. Its not a sacrifice if you don't believe in it. That's why paul says flee from all idolatry. Idolatry   comes from the heart not the hands.It all goes back to why you were there. at the very bottom of the chapter you can see why Paul says not to eat to meet. Not for your own conscience sake but for that of another.

That is why he has the freedom to do what he does. This shows that it is not the actual practice that is defiled what comes out from your heart is what defiled you Jesus says this emphatically and we cannot ignore  it. It is not the outside things that defile us but what we intended I heart. Whatever we do we need to do unto God.

God is jealous when we depart from him in our hearts and that is what would defile us. Since God owns the Christmas tree, for example,and all the ornaments, then what we know it is the pagans who took what was what was Gods and use it for their worship. essentially, they stole his goods to use in their evil ceremonies with the intent to worship false gods.So if a believer hangs ornaments on a Christmas tree he is taking all the things that belongs to God and using it either for neutral purpose or unto God and therefore he is clean

[mplsfitter539]

I get it now. So it's actually excepted by Yahweh when anyone brings there child to satan clause and sets them in his lap just like they did in Babylon with the cast iron pot bellied god chemish heated until cherry red? Ok I see where Yahweh would think that's cute because now its just a re-enactment of the ritual because now the intent is different. It's all about intent not the actual ritual it's self. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me. I have learned much about what it means to be a Christian. We can pretty much do what ever we want but we have to say we are doing it for Yahweh and then its perfectly fine.

[Seth]

I understand your frustration with another  brothers freedom

[Seth]

BTW, my daughter sitting on Santa Clause's lap is no different than if she went to Disneyland and sat on Mickey Mouse's lap. Both are equally harmless to her. Santa is nothing but a fictional cartoon character.

There is NO such thing as inadvertent worship of anything. So, please save your self-righteous indignation. It's one thing for a person to be convicted in themselves about a thing, but entirely another to attempt to sow binding seeds of guilt among the free with a lack of understanding. That's where I draw the line.

[dajomaco]

I get it now. So it's actually excepted by Yahweh when anyone brings there child to satan clause and sets them in his lap just like they did in Babylon with the cast iron pot bellied god chemish heated until cherry red? Ok I see where Yahweh would think that's cute because now its just a re-enactment of the ritual because now the intent is different. It's all about intent not the actual ritual it's self. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me. I have learned much about what it means to be a Christian. We can pretty much do what ever we want but we have to say we are doing it for Yahweh and then its perfectly fine.

I have learned much about what it means to be a Christian :eek:

[WhiteWings]

BTW, my daughter sitting on Santa Clause's lap is no different than if she went to Disneyland and sat on Mickey Mouse's lap. Both are equally harmless to her. Santa is nothing but a fictional cartoon character.

Not really. Santa is a Christianized version of the Norsk god Odin who was hunting in the sky and gave gifts to kids who gave carrots for Odin's horse. Odin the mighty hunter is Nimrod the mighty hunter.

There is NO such thing as inadvertent worship of anything.

I'm sure your daughter isn't worshipping santa. For me it's undeniable the roots of Santa/Xmas (and easter, Halloween and new years eve) are as pagan as it can get. Sure, celebration and even the names of the associated gods have changed greatly and frequently during history. Regardless of the fact that the celebrators of these festivals have pure intentions or not.

God clearly commanded not to follow the ways of the pagans. So the question at hand is if the celebration of  xmas, easter, etc, have lost enough of the pagan roots, for God not viewing those festivals as pagan anymore.

[Seth]

The real question at hand is this: what is proceeding from your heart to defile? Since Christ said that what proceeds from the heart defiles, we must ask whether we are following the ways of pagans from within. It was the way of pagans to eat meat sacrificed to idols, something we know from the NT is not inherently wrong to do. Odin is as fictional as Mickey Mouse. So the question is, are you worshipping or believing in Odin or Mickey Mouse or Santa Clause?

[Jock]

The meat we eat is from a local butcher and none of it is sacrificed to anybody but I do thank God that we have meat on our table.

The only meat I won't eat is "Halal" meat because of the brutal way they slaughter the animals. They also pray over it, to Allah.

Apart from that, the Lord doesn't want us hung up on such things. It is what comes out of our mouths that defiles us.

Jock.  :2c:

[Seth]

The Halal issue is a perfect example. Refusing the meat out of concern for the chicken's treatment is a good reason. It shows kindness. But if the chickens were treated well, and the only thing left is that they pray to Allah over it, my view is that you are perfectly fine to eat it. Nothing is wrong with it. The only reason you would want to abstain is for the benefit of the Muslim, to not validate the practice. But if it's just you and the chicken, it's totally fine to eat.

When Jesus said that what proceeds from the heart defiles, it is the absolute death knel to legalism because nobody knows your heart but you and God. So nobody can make that determination but you regarding things which are not contrary to loving your neighbor as yourself.

This was a revolutionary concept when Jesus said it because the Jews didn't live that way.

[Jock]

I agree with you, Seth. In fact,I was going to write in as an addendum that I "could" eat Halal but it's my personal choice not to, nothing spiritual.

Thing is, If I didn't eat Halal because of the law, then I called the days of the week, their Roman, Teutonic, Greek names, or used the Gregorian calendar, I would be guilty of the whole truckload. (the law)

The Pharisees were strict concerning the law, but Jesus told them that if they even glanced twice at a maiden, then they have committed adultery in their hearts. In other words, Jesus made it even tougher for them to show them that they needed a Saviour! After all, what man doesn't notice a good looking woman walking down the street?!  :declare:

[Jock]

I was thinking about David eating the showbread, he did it because his men were hungry. For me to do such a thing, I would have to look to Christ's heart, not my own, because my heart is full of deadly poison and wickedness.

Shalom

Jock :2c:

[JulieTang84]

I was thinking about David eating the showbread, he did it because his men were hungry. For me to do such a thing, I would have to look to Christ's heart, not my own, because my heart is full of deadly poison and wickedness.

Shalom

Jock :2c:

Jock here are your  :2c: back. I am so sorry that you have such a poor view of your heart. Are you not a new person?  :sigh:

Jesus said: You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' John 3:7

and then Peter:  For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.  1Pe 1:23   :girlheart:

Paul spoke of this on many occasions, but here is one: But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.  Rom 7:6

I have the greatest respect for you Jock and can very much see the Spirit in and through your posts.

MPisFitter....  Likewise, I respect you greatly too (more than you could know) Each of us have been released from the old law, which means all of the bindings and judging associated with them. This is however, NOT a CARTE BLANCHE white wash so that ALL is NOW Permissible.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Rom 6:1, 2

By know means am I suggesting that your Spirit given beliefs are wrong, they are just different than mine. There is Nothing wrong with this, for we must all walk our own spiritual walk.

Hopefully all understand perfectly that Jesus was speaking to EVERYONE personally when he said the following:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."  Mat 11:28-30

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

[mplsfitter539]

The meat we eat is from a local butcher and none of it is sacrificed to anybody but I do thank God that we have meat on our table.

The only meat I won't eat is "Halal" meat because of the brutal way they slaughter the animals. They also pray over it, to Allah.

Apart from that, the Lord doesn't want us hung up on such things. It is what comes out of our mouths that defiles us.

Jock.  :2c:

Now I am not saying don't eat meat. What I will tell you is that the meat we buy at the grocery store has already been sacrificed to the god of money. From the cow farmer all the way to the grocery store that animal has been sacrificed to many gods before it goes into your mouth. I still love a good T-bone.

[sheila]

something else I found to consider regarding the origin of;

      The Mishna and Talmud[Avodah Zara 8 a]

   describes a pagan festival called Saturna which occurs 8 days before winter solstice,

it is followed by 8 days after the solstice with a fetival called Calenda.

   The Talmud ascribes it's origen to Adam[man?] who saw the days getting shorter and became

afraid the world was returning to chaos that was before creation and fasted 8 daysbefore

-when the days began getting longer he celebrated 8 days realizing this was a natural cycle


    The Talmud states that this festival was later turned into a pagan festival.


...this is the first I ever heard of anything like this........

[sheila]

  they brought Him a denarias.....' Give to Caesar what is Caesar's,and to God

what is God's."

[rosered]

I was thinking about David eating the showbread, he did it because his men were hungry. For me to do such a thing, I would have to look to Christ's heart, not my own, because my heart is full of deadly poison and wickedness.

Shalom

Jock 

I was going to bring up  Davids eating the shewbread too , but went  for the  unlawful things  man cannot speak of because only the Spirit knows  to things of God ... 


Please  remember Gods Spirit is dwelling in you and so is the Lord Jesus Christs , that is what constrains us [union of Love  between a Father and Son ],  according to Pauls   testimony   , its the Love for Christ , so we   do consider everyone and walk in the Spirit/Love   that pleases God

   

[Jock]

Julie, thanks for that kind word. I'll bear it in mind. :gimmefive:

Duwayne, I respect your conviction about this. It's taken our Lord a long time to free me up a bit. My hope is that, whether we do Christmas or not, that we can be close to the Lord and in His blessings.

Shalom

Jock. :banana:

[Seth]

he Pharisees were strict concerning the law, but Jesus told them that if they even glanced twice at a maiden, then they have committed adultery in their hearts. In other words, Jesus made it even tougher for them to show them that they needed a Saviour! After all, what man doesn't notice a good looking woman walking down the street?!

Pretty much. I've seen comments on this forum about how traditions were added to the Law beyond the law itself, which is true. The thing about observing the Law the old way, is that those traditions come from the natural ambiguity of Law when observed from an external viewpoint.

Any lawyer will tell you that laws are general and need interpretation to apply to specific situations. The scripture says to rest on the Sabbath, for example. What does that mean? What is allowable and what is not on the Sabbath? What constitutes resting? Is it ok to heal people on the sabbath? Is that work? The Bible does not provide specific information on that, so they invented traditions to account for as many situations as they could and used their traditions to accuse Jesus.

But once you start looking from the inside out, you don't need the extra rules and traditions. You just look at what fulfills the Law (Love) and go from that, and each person is in charge of their walk. It removes the need to follow what everyone else things you should do. The works which are contrary to love, however, are manifest and easily knowable.

[Jock]

You're right Seth. Love is the key and trumps the law. Being under the law, is bondage but the "easy yoke" that Jesus spoke of is light and frees from that weight.

Jock.

[dajomaco]

Eat everything that is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake, 26 for the earth is the Lord's, and all that is in it.[m]

[dajomaco]

Therefore, if food causes my brother to fall, I will never again eat meat, so that I won't cause my brother to fall.