Tentmaker Forum

...I just want to speak to you,not in the way of a rebuke at all..but just to inform you,ok?

    I just want to call to your attention that it was in the midst of Ur of the Chaldees that

  God spoke to Abram.  thus from the midst of Babylonia..the seed of Abraham hears the voice

of the Lord.  Thus if you can accept this..even though in the midst of Babylnia/with it's

practices   'this is my son,hear ye him" is heard in the land in the 'christmas' seed of faith.

and those that 'hear' the voice of the Lord in Babylonia..have  righteousness accounted to

them.[having accepted His word[come in flesh] to them as truth]

....and when He further speaks to them..and tells them to leave that land behind......they

will step out in faith and beleive it..just as Abram/Abraham did..and just as we


   But for now..all they have is the 'seed of the woman" even the christchild born in the flesh

the son of God come in the flesh...and they herald it yearly at the time and place of

greatest darkness[saturnalia]...that seed is life/light in the midst of the  darkness of this

world.  God can make it grow........

   Remember Abrahm come from such,as did we..and Jesus Christ come in the midst of

a conquered people[Israel ruled by Rome]

.......and God causes all to work togather for the good.....for this reason...angels were

instructed not to attempt to pullup the tares...until the harvest,lest 'wheat' seed faith planted

of God be uprooted.

                                                   :friendstu:

   So,I ask your forebearance in this matter,pateince

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 03, 2013, 03:53:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on December 03, 2013, 12:26:16 AM

Quote from: JulieTangI would hate to think that any here are making an idol out of any of these holidays. Those that have yet blind hearts will have a better chance of seeing an alternate "spiritual" point of view, if one is given. Staying home, doing nothing is not a lot different than burying the silver.

I totally agree. It's important to know what an idol really is. It's an earthly replacement for God, whether a gold calf, money itself, or the biggest idol of all: SELF, that is pride. Without those characteristics, there is no idol. That's why I believe it's fine to celebrate the holidays, as long as you put them in their own place. It goes to the intention. If you know you aren't placing the day above another, as if to downgrade God's importance on any other ordinary day, then celebrating holidays is not defiling you. It's always what proceeds from the heart that defiles a man.

Seth I just read a few verses that disagree with your personal opinion.
Jer 10:1-5
1 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

So here Yahweh says Don't do it. Don't bring the tree inside the house and decorate it with gold and silver balls. Maybe what Yahweh means here is go ahead and enjoy the pagan holy days but just don't bring the tree inside and decorate it. Or maybe Yahweh is saying don't even acknowledge the pagan holy days because they are evil. I believe if something is evil we are required to not participate in it. The problem here is when Christians begin to think they know more than Yahweh does about the effects of participation in evil.

Yes, this is the verse people use to encourage others not to have a Christmas tree, but there is an obvious problem with this interpretation: God is not talking about pagan holidays. He is talking about idol worship. If you read the entire passage, he also mentions those who work with metal etc. Then he adds this:

Jeremiah 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

This is what the heathen (Hebrew word for nations, or Gentiles) were doing, making false gods from wood and metal and WORSHIPPING them. The Christmas tree wouldn't be invented for thousands of years. So the question is, is this a prophecy about a Christmas tree? You seem to think so, but it's your own private interpretation. The matter at stake in Jeremiah 10 is worshipping of false gods, idols.

What Christians need to understand about the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is what happens in the heart.

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

To the pure, their minds are pure and therefore consciences are not corrupted. A Jew is now a matter of the heart, a circumcision of the heart. Why? Because when the heart becomes circumcised the desire to WORSHIP false gods disappears and an idol becomes nothing more than a piece of wood or metal. It has no inherent power to corrupt the purified.

That is why meat sacrificed to idols is nothing, just meat. The Easter ham is nothing but ordinary meat. Same with the Thanksgiving turkey, and the Christmas roast. The Christmas tree is nothing but a tree with trinkets on it. The heart is purified, so all things are lawful but not all things are profitable.

Take a look at what Paul means by that:

1 Cor 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. 25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake; 26 =for the earth is the Lord's, and all it contains (including Christmas trees). 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?

mplsfitter539, what you are doing is judging my freedom according to your own conscience. I wouldn't do that to you. To the pure, the mind is pure, and the Christmas tree therefore, becomes nothing but a tree. The HEART is really the matter at stake, and if the heart is pure, all things are lawful because the mind is devoted to God and not to worshipping idols. Nobody is worshipping a Christmas tree, so don't judge my freedom with your own conscience.

On the other hand, I would not encourage you to have a Christmas tree because obviously your conscience doesn't allow that and I wouldn't want your faith to be harmed.

Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Please tell me who this heathen are.
Where are they.

Does the holy spirit comfotred you with the knowledge of who and where the heathens are? 

If so please share that I might go and tell them that Jesus has already turnred the heathens in to wine?

Dajomaco, the "heathen" is from the word "goyim" the word for "nations" or better known today as "Gentiles." The Jeremiah passage is warning Israel not to worship idols like the Gentiles do. From the perspective of the New Covenant, a Gentile (goyim) is anyone who has not been circumcised in the heart according to the Spirit. Check Romans 2 to find out about that...

Jeremiah 24;5-7   like these good figs so will I acknowledge them that are carried away

captive of Judah[Christ] whom I have sent away out of this place into the land

of the Chaldean's[Babylon] for their good.........and I will bring them again unto this land

and I will buil;d them up and not pull them down...and I will plant them and not pull

them up[as tares]...and I will give themm a heart to know me..that 'I AM' the Lord..

and they shall be my people.

  so next time you behold 'christians' dwelling in the midst of Chaldean/Babylon religious

practices....[christmas...christ seed in midst of multitude] remember this scripture..

   judge nothing before the appointed time...judge not lest ye be judged........

IMHO religious practices are themselves the fruit of INTERNAL carnality. Without the internal carnality, they are not carried away. Understand that it is WHAT PROCEEDS FROM THE HEART that defiles a man, not what he does with a Christmas tree or opening presents or eating turkey on Thanksgiving. Christmas is not a religious practice. It may be to SOME people, but not all.

There is no being carried away if the heart is pure...

Not understanding that is the basis of Judaizing.

Good point Sheila  :HeartThrob:

We must never forget or be afraid; because light shines the brightest in the darkness.
   
Rom 2:19
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Standing aloof because the blind are blind is not spreading light; rather it is putting light under a shade.
   
Luk 8:16
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

Many Christians think that by shining in the dark; (mingling with the blind) that somehow, the light will be lost. Well. in some cases ones light might indeed dim or indeed go out. How strong was that light to begin with?

Mat 6:22,23
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The Light which is darkness is dark no matter where it shines. (Try a ER church)

We are to be an example for all. If Christmas or Easter have lost their meaning, then how bright is our light? It need no illuminate the entire universe, but if only upon those we have contact with on a daily basis.

If we  :dsunny: Father will do his part.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

So much about this issue can be understood through scripture:

Colossians 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

"Do not gather with family on Easter because it has pagan roots! Don't eat pork anyway! Don't touch a dead hawk! Don't have a Christmas tree! Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"

These all have the appearance of wisdom in self-denial but have nothing to do with any value against fleshly indulgence. They are man made commandments because they enforce a Law which was weak through the flesh.

But the power against "fleshly indulgence" is found in the Spirit in a mind purified by faith.  The Old Covenant focuses on the external, so that the Pharisees were like whited sepulchers, pure on the outside, dead on the inside. The New Covenant reverses this process. It goes from the INSIDE to the OUTSIDE. A new creation in Christ can touch, taste and handle, because his mind is pure, and his conscience is therefore undefiled.

Always beware of those who judge your freedom from the weakness of their own consciences. I am so tired of the Judaizing that goes on in Christianity. It places people under fear and slavery to the ordinances of men, and their own guilt.

Those who love have fulfilled the Law. Eating pork, Easter, Christmas trees, ordinances, ordinances, ordinances, have nothing to do with LOVE. LOVE....and you will have fulfilled the Law....

So what you are saying is that if I want to go see and listen to Marilyn Manson in concert I should go with a clear conscience. How about if I go to a strip club and watch the dancers? Can I really do these things in the presents of Yahweh? Will he smile on me while I practice lawlessness? Should I mix my conscience up with abominations because you translate freedom to mean everything?
IMO when someone is trying to separate themselves from the pollution of paganism it may be a good idea to steer clear of it altogether.

Quote1 Peter 2:11
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

I believe this is why we are in the state we are in today. Too many "Christians" have translated scripture to mean "do as though wilt" because of freedom. I am positive that x-mas is an abomination to Yahweh no matter how much freedom He has given us. It is a direct assault on everything He stands for. Do your own homework on this and research the origin of x-mas and then you to will see that it came from pagan origins and does not glorify Yahweh in the least.

Quote from: mplsfitter539So what you are saying is that if I want to go see and listen to Marilyn Manson in concert I should go with a clear conscience. How about if I go to a strip club and watch the dancers?

Give me a break.

THE QUESTION IS, WHY ARE YOU AT THE CONCERT?

If Jesus were at the concert, WHY would he be there? If Jesus were at the strip club, WHY would he be there? Do you think seeing a naked woman would defile Jesus? NO! Because he is pure in his heart. He would not be there to INDULGE IN HIS FLESH.

This is what the Colossians verse is all about. Having the appearance of self-denial through ordinances has nothing to do with putting away fleshly desires. That has to do with walking in the Spirit. It has nothing to do with Christmas trees because Christmas trees DO NOT DEFILE ANYONE who is pure of mind...

You seem to think that Christmas participation is what does the defiling. It does not. It is what proceeds from the heart that defiles.

Before you say Jesus wouldn't go to a strip club, you might want to consider who he ate with and who were his accusers...

Galatians 5:2
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

If you take that scripture out of context, it looks like Jews cannot be Christians, or anyone who was circumcised for health reasons or even as Paul did with Timothy, to spread the Gospel. After all, it clearly says that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

On the other hand, if you see the context of Galatians, you know that Paul is saying that if you be circumcised with the INTENT to BOAST IN THE FLESH, or to make yourselves righteousness through works of the ordinances in the Law, Christ will be no use to you, because you want your own righteousness not that which comes through you from Christ in the Spirit.

It's not the act of circumcision that defiles, but the INTENTION at the heart of it, which makes it a question of faith. It has everything to do with your intent, because we do not live by ordinances....but by faith.

Paul is NOT saying you cannot attend a party of an unbeliever because the party celebrates a pagan festival from thousands of years ago. Nor his he saying, don't have a Christmas tree because it has pagan beginnings, any more than he thought that eating meat sacrificed to idols was inherently bad. The question has to do with whether or not you BELIEVE in the idol in the first place. If not, the meat is fine. You could take meat sacrificed to idols home to your family and enjoy it because you KNOW that the idol isn't real. God is real. So the meat would do no harm to you because it cannot touch your faith.

Paul is telling us to EXAMINE OURSELVES, to know what our intentions are and to make sure we are living by faith. He knew darn well Christmas trees have no power to defile the pure, as long as the pure remain pure. The moment the pure begin to indulge in the flesh by going to a strip club with the INTENT to be seduced by sexual immorality, or to be in a Marilyn Manson concert with the INTENT to agree with blasphemy, they become impure and their consciences are defiled.

Does eating pork, or touching a dead hawk, or having a Christmas tree in your house and opening presents on the 25th have the power to defile your mind? IF SO, don't do it. IF NOT, you're fine.

KNOW IN YOUR HEART that the idol is false, and you will have no fear of the material itself. That is what living by faith is all about.

I have posted twice already because this is a passionate topic for me, because I believe the ordinances of men forced upon others leads to unhappiness, unnecessary self denial, guilt and fear. I will simply provide what I think the difference is between messages:

Apostle Paul: Don't do anything that harms your faith.

Judiazers: Don't do anything vaguely connected to paganism because paganism is bad.

The missing link in the Judiazer's message is: FAITH. Judaizers have no concern about faith and do not preach from that perspective at all. They insist that the act itself, or the distant history of the act, is the problem and not preservation of faith, and the walk according to the Spirit.

Does it harm your faith, or your brother's faith? That is the real question.

That is something that everyone needs to examine for themselves and NOT live by somebody else's ordinances, because those ordinances are determined by their own consciences. What they might deny themselves may have no impact on your faith.

2 Corinthians 24
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Too many Christians are allowing other Christians to have dominion over their faith through their legalism.

Seth,
I can see that you totally enjoy x-mas and I surely don't want to ruin yours so you go right ahead and practice that old tradition of men called x-mas. I will leave it here because we profit nothing by arguing or points. I believe people defile the purity of their own mind by succumbing to the temptations of observing, practicing, participating in traditions of men that profit nothing.
Mark 7:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Yes and I enjoy pork and crab too, neither of which affect my faith.What you seem to not realize is that the effect of the word of God is LOVING your fellow man. As Jesus was healing on the Sabbath, the Pharisees condemned him rather than celebrating his achievements for sick people. Not realizing that the Sabbath was made FOR man, in their condemnation they made the word of God of no effect toward LOVE.

Obviously Christmas trees have nothing to do with that, and neither does meat sacrificed to idols. Good luck with your ordinances. I hope nobody follows you down that rabbit hole.

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 04, 2013, 12:20:51 AM
So what you are saying is that if I want to go see and listen to Marilyn Manson in concert I should go with a clear conscience. How about if I go to a strip club and watch the dancers? Can I really do these things in the presents of Yahweh? Will he smile on me while I practice lawlessness? Should I mix my conscience up with abominations because you translate freedom to mean everything?
IMO when someone is trying to separate themselves from the pollution of paganism it may be a good idea to steer clear of it altogether.

Quote1 Peter 2:11
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

I believe this is why we are in the state we are in today. Too many "Christians" have translated scripture to mean "do as though wilt" because of freedom. I am positive that x-mas is an abomination to Yahweh no matter how much freedom He has given us. It is a direct assault on everything He stands for. Do your own homework on this and research the origin of x-mas and then you to will see that it came from pagan origins and does not glorify Yahweh in the least.

I do not mean your own conscience, but the other person's. For why is my freedom judged by another person's conscience? 30 If I partake with thanks, why am I slandered because of something I give thanks for?

This issue arose because of false brothers smuggled in,
who came in secretly to spy on the freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned.[c] 12 For he regularly ate with the Gentiles before certain men came from James.

James the brother of Jesus according to the flesh.
James the of the Book of James.
James the leader of the circumcision party

However, when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he feared those from the circumcision party. 13 Then the rest of the Jews joined his hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 04, 2013, 02:55:10 AM
I believe people defile the purity of their own mind by succumbing to the temptations of observing, practicing, participating in traditions of men that profit nothing.

This is the problem with blanket ordinances that Christians place on another. There is no way to know who is defiling their minds, unless you are the person. That is why Paul said that EACH person should examine THEMSELVES. Only God knows the heart and the mind, and for another Christian to say that someone else's mind is defiled and impure is nothing more than a blanket judgment on someone else's faith without knowledge. Thus, the dangers of blanket legalism reveal themselves.

Paul encouraged us to assess the situation for ourselves and then MAKE A CHOICE of what to do under the circumstances. mplsfitter539, would like me to accept his ordinance as a blanket rule WITHOUT the need for me to examine for myself whether a Christmas tree really does defile my mind or not. No need for me to think for myself if I am following him, right?

Hi;
Gal 5;17-24 " But I say walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
For the desires of the flesh are against the desires of the spirit, and the desires of the spirit are against the desires of the flesh,
FOR THESE ARE OPPOSED TO ONE ANOTHER SO THAT YOU MAY NOT DO THE THINGS THAT YOU PLEASE.
But if you are led by the Spirit you are NOT under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are;
    sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, sorcery, quarrels, strife, jealousy, fits of rage, dissensions, divisions, envyings, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
I warn you that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

By contrast, the fruit of the spirit is;
    love, joy, peace, patience, generosity, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control,
against such things there is NO LAW.
And those who belong to Christ HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH IT'S PASSIONS AND DESIRES."

* This seems to be saying that whilst we live we are at conflict within between the flesh and the spirit. The flesh seeks self-gain. The Spirit puts self to death. This is deeper than total submission, which is like slavery. To death seems to be highlighting that we have no personal effort in our position since that is all the work of Christ. This seems to be why we take up the cross daily so that we appreciate the work of Christ.
Just as the first Adam put us into the state of sin, the Second Adam, Christ, sets us up for the next stage of development in the coming spiritual realm.

Quote from: Seth on December 03, 2013, 10:13:23 PM
IMHO religious practices are themselves the fruit of INTERNAL carnality. Without the internal carnality, they are not carried away. Understand that it is WHAT PROCEEDS FROM THE HEART that defiles a man, not what he does with a Christmas tree or opening presents or eating turkey on Thanksgiving. Christmas is not a religious practice. It may be to SOME people, but not all.

But still the ancient Jews were warned not to be part of paganism. God hated it; even when the Jews thought it was ok and thought they (still) worshipped God.
What's next? Sacrifice swine on the Brazen Altar because we truly believe God would like some pork chops?

QuoteThere is no being carried away if the heart is pure...

But is the heart of a xmas celebrator pure? Many really think it's an all Christian celebration of Christ's birth. Although wrong their hearts may be pure.

You do know xmas is pagan and you celebrate it. Is your heart really pure? Or are you just making up excuses to enjoy a pagan feast?


Note to Jabcat: I think this sub-thread has outgrow grab bag status  :winkgrin:
Maybe split it off and merge with this huge xmas and Isthar thread? http://tentmaker.org/forum/prayer-room-(members-only)/santa/

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2013, 08:36:07 AM
Note to Jabcat: I think this sub-thread has outgrow grab bag status  :winkgrin:

Yeah, maybe so, huh?  Tried to split into that thread and it didn't work, so re-labed it as is...by January we'll be alright :)

(all posts edited only to change title of new thread)

Quote from: jabcat on December 04, 2013, 10:06:15 AM
Yeah, maybe so, huh?  Tried to split into that thread and it didn't work,

The thread is already split; so a next step could be merging it with the huge thread.

Seth said: Does eating pork, or touching a dead hawk, or having a Christmas tree in your house and opening presents on the 25th have the power to defile your mind? IF SO, don't do it. IF NOT, you're fine

That is spot on. In my past affiliations I have had men lay a burden of guilt concerning christmas, easter and the like. Are we to go back to living the law? The days of the week, months of the years, names of planets, touching a cadaver, all pagan!

My wife and I have had years of not doing Christmas (I don't think we scored any points with God) especially if we laid a weight on our brothers. Oh how spiritual we were!

Let each man be persuaded in his own mind and heart. I can say that where love is found, liberty is found.

Shalom

Jock.   :banana:

Psalm 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

I tell you what guys, the dark valley is peaceful when compared to debates concerning faith and law.   :dunno2:

What gives? Jesus gave us SPIRIT, and also the parable of the talents of Silver. Is it not obvious that SPIRIT = SILVER. Not all are given the same amount, but we ARE ALL judged by what we do with what we are given.

What does having the gift of Spirit mean? Should we hide it away from all others, just like the servant who buried his; being to afraid of what his Master might say if he spent poorly, thinking his Master had plenty.

Or is it like the the servant that spent wisely and grew his Master's wealth. We must spend/spread/disseminate the LIGHT of SPIRIT in EVERYTHING we do. Christmas is NOT EVIL. It is just a day that people get together and celebrate (what is not important)

What is WRONG with participating in such holidays? Well, not a thing. We are no longer of this world, so the things of the world can no longer TRAP us. (Psm 23:4)

On the contrary, we can use such holiday events to Further the Light of Truth and Love to all that we have contact with. To be sure I am NOT talking of bible bashing for I know many who do this with very little effect other than turning even myself away.

We must live always with Joy. Our very being should almost glow with the Love we have for Father and His Love for each of us. DO NOT get so trapped in the letter of the law that the TRUE LIGHT is dimmed in any manner.

The WORLD is the Valley of the Shadow of Death, Christmas is part of the world. There is nothing to Fear, just a whole lot to LOVE.

Give Love away always and you will see Christmas as just another day made special for YOU to SHINE like you have never shone before. Please don't waste it with and bury your Spirit of Light away, thinking this is what Father wants, for it is not.

Shine for Father  :dsunny:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2013, 08:36:07 AM
But still the ancient Jews were warned not to be part of paganism. God hated it; even when the Jews thought it was ok and thought they (still) worshipped God.

This is true. He also said, don't eat pork. You have to see that something happened between the Old and New covenants that CHANGED the way we look at things.

Romans 14
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Paul had to be CONVINCED that nothing is unclean OF ITSELF. This is because he was so used to thinking externally, but the New Covenant is all about faith. Faith is internal. Therefore niether pork or Christmas trees are unclean OF THEMSELVES. Rather, it's what is happening with your faith that counts, which leads me to the next point:

QuoteWhat's next? Sacrifice swine on the Brazen Altar because we truly believe God would like some pork chops?

Please note the bolded parts. THAT is the issue. What do you BELIEVE? You can kill a pig on a brazen altar, it will not hurt you. But are you doing it BECAUSE you BELIEVE that God wants pork chops, or that Ba'al desires a sacrifice? Or are you doing it because YOU are hungry, not because you think the altar is anything but a butchering table and that the pig is nothing but ordinary meat.

WHY is the issue under the New Covenant because it is all a matter of faith. Not even circumcision is evil in itself. But WHY are you doing it is the real issue.

This is why Paul connects everything to faith and tells each person to make their own choice about it.

QuoteBut is the heart of a xmas celebrator pure? Many really think it's an all Christian celebration of Christ's birth. Although wrong their hearts may be pure.

You do know xmas is pagan and you celebrate it. Is your heart really pure? Or are you just making up excuses to enjoy a pagan feast?

Simply because something has pagan roots does not make it evil OF ITSELF. The evil is in BELIEVING in paganism. That is why meat sacrificed to idols is ok to eat. If my heart is pure or not is a matter of my own faith. That's something to be examined individually.

1 Cor 13:10
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

That's the problem with Judaizing is that it does not allow for self examination and self decision. It insists on blanket rules like the Old Covenant, because the Law is NOT of faith. You follow rules without need to examine yourselves and determine what is harmful or not to your walk.

It's not up to WW to determine whether my heart is pure or not, that is the point.

Quote from: Jock on December 04, 2013, 01:07:00 PM

Seth said: Does eating pork, or touching a dead hawk, or having a Christmas tree in your house and opening presents on the 25th have the power to defile your mind? IF SO, don't do it. IF NOT, you're fine

That is spot on. In my past affiliations I have had men lay a burden of guilt concerning christmas, easter and the like. Are we to go back to living the law? The days of the week, months of the years, names of planets, touching a cadaver, all pagan!

My wife and I have had years of not doing Christmas (I don't think we scored any points with God) especially if we laid a weight on our brothers. Oh how spiritual we were!

Let each man be persuaded in his own mind and heart. I can say that where love is found, liberty is found.

Shalom

Jock.   :banana:

:iagree:

Quote from: Seth on December 04, 2013, 04:44:10 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2013, 08:36:07 AM
But still the ancient Jews were warned not to be part of paganism. God hated it; even when the Jews thought it was ok and thought they (still) worshipped God.

This is true. He also said, don't eat pork. You have to see that something happened between the Old and New covenants that CHANGED the way we look at things.

Romans 14
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Paul had to be CONVINCED that nothing is unclean OF ITSELF. This is because he was so used to thinking externally, but the New Covenant is all about faith. Faith is internal. Therefore niether pork or Christmas trees are unclean OF THEMSELVES. Rather, it's what is happening with your faith that counts, which leads me to the next point:

QuoteWhat's next? Sacrifice swine on the Brazen Altar because we truly believe God would like some pork chops?

Please note the bolded parts. THAT is the issue. What do you BELIEVE? You can kill a pig on a brazen altar, it will not hurt you. But are you doing it BECAUSE you BELIEVE that God wants pork chops, or that Ba'al desires a sacrifice? Or are you doing it because YOU are hungry, not because you think the altar is anything but a butchering table and that the pig is nothing but ordinary meat.

WHY is the issue under the New Covenant because it is all a matter of faith. Not even circumcision is evil in itself. But WHY are you doing it is the real issue.

This is why Paul connects everything to faith and tells each person to make their own choice about it.

QuoteBut is the heart of a xmas celebrator pure? Many really think it's an all Christian celebration of Christ's birth. Although wrong their hearts may be pure.

You do know xmas is pagan and you celebrate it. Is your heart really pure? Or are you just making up excuses to enjoy a pagan feast?

Simply because something has pagan roots does not make it evil OF ITSELF. The evil is in BELIEVING in paganism. That is why meat sacrificed to idols is ok to eat. If my heart is pure or not is a matter of my own faith. That's something to be examined individually.

1 Cor 13:10
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

That's the problem with Judaizing is that it does not allow for self examination and self decision. It insists on blanket rules like the Old Covenant, because the Law is NOT of faith. You follow rules without need to examine yourselves and determine what is harmful or not to your walk.

It's not up to WW to determine whether my heart is pure or not, that is the point.

Seth what changed about eating pork, crabs, oysters, etc............ they are still bottom feeders and are the most putrid of all foods? You are what you eat and pigs eat crap so when you eat a pig you are ingesting the very same things that the pig eats. Pigs also are cannibals and eat their own feces. All ocean life poops onto the ocean floor where crabs, lobsters, shell fish, and other bottom feeders eat all that poop so if you enjoy eating recycled poop go ahead. You are correct that it is not a sin to eat these filthy animals but its still not healthy at all. Yahweh's laws were put in place to spare us the consequences of our own stupidity but we know best right? Eat what you like and do as thou wilt but for me I will follow Yahweh's law's because they are all profitable. 

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 04, 2013, 05:26:15 PMSeth what changed about eating pork, crabs, oysters, etc............ they are still bottom feeders and are the most putrid of all foods? You are what you eat and pigs eat crap so when you eat a pig you are ingesting the very same things that the pig eats. Pigs also are cannibals and eat their own feces. All ocean life poops onto the ocean floor where crabs, lobsters, shell fish, and other bottom feeds eat all that poop so if you enjoy eating recycled poop go ahead. You are correct that it is not a sin to eat these filthy animals but its still not healthy at all. Yahweh's laws were put in place to spare us the consequences of our own stupidity but we know best right? Eat what you like and do as thou wilt but for me I will follow Yahweh's law's because they are all profitable.

Health had nothing to do with those Laws. You can die from eating a cow just as you can from a crab. Those Laws caused people to believe that the meat was unclean OF ITSELF, and nothing is unclean of itself. We have ONE yardstick to know whether we should abstain from something or not, and it's SO easy to do:

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness, "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Those who understand that scripture know that NOTHING is unclean of itself, that the thing to be aware of is whether or not what we do causes us to fall away from LOVE. If it doesn't cause that problem, then it's not unclean. Does eating pork cause anyone not to "love your neighbor as yourself?" No? Then it will do no harm to your FAITH.

Those with a strong conscience understand this. Those whose consciences are weaker are still growing into it, and for them I would say, don't have a Christmas tree if it causes you guilt and fear, or if it derails a brother.

it is not what enters a man's mouth that defiles him,do you not know that whatever enters a

man's mouth passes through the intestines into the sewer.  It is what enter a man's heart

that defiles him.

   and mp I don't care what you eat..when it passes through your intestines it becomes foul and

belongs in the sewer...  is our god our belly now?  or didd your body/flesh 'sanctify' it?

   regardless...I have no desire to eat my bread cooked over human dung..

   last time I checked  vegetatbles and fruits fed on dung...and we eat them even being

vegetarian.

    I have a grandson..who refused to eat corn..cz it growed in the dirt!

lol! but he loved frenchfries!  You should have seen the look on his face when I told

him how potatoes grow.
 

   

 :laughing7:

It all goes back to why Jesus died. Not to keep us under the Law, but so that the righteousness OF the Law be fulfilled in us.

Quote from: sheila on December 04, 2013, 05:52:44 PM
it is not what enters a man's mouth that defiles him,do you not know that whatever enters a

man's mouth passes through the intestines into the sewer.  It is what enter a man's heart

that defiles him.

   and mp I don't care what you eat..when it passes through your intestines it becomes foul and

belongs in the sewer...  is our god our belly now?  or didd your body/flesh 'sanctify' it?

   regardless...I have no desire to eat my bread cooked over human dung..

   last time I checked  vegetatbles and fruits fed on dung...and we eat them even being

vegetarian.

    I have a grandson..who refused to eat corn..cz it growed in the dirt!

lol! but he loved frenchfries!  You should have seen the look on his face when I told

him how potatoes grow.
 

Plants don't eat poop they gather only the nutrients in the poop. How is a pig different from a rat, bat, or cat? According to what I am reading here on this thread all animals are good for food. Most people "Christian" or not refuse to eat many animals because they are disgusting but somehow the pig has become accepted, why? What makes a pig less disgusting than eating garbage, the pig eats the garbage and you want to eat him so whats up? If you like to eat garbage I have a huge pile of it and your invited to my house to eat it, I will even throw in a bib so you don't get anything nasty on your shirt.

Quote from: Seth on December 04, 2013, 06:04:10 PM
:laughing7:

It all goes back to why Jesus died. Not to keep us under the Law, but so that the righteousness OF the Law be fulfilled in us.

So when Yahshua died He made all disgusting things/animals clean to eat no matter what science says about the toxins contained in their diet? Please help me understand how the pig is now able to change a diet of pure filth into perfectly healthy food. I am just trying to understand your philosophy.

QuoteSo when Yahshua died He made all disgusting things/animals clean to eat no matter what science says about the toxins contained in their diet? Please help me understand how the pig is now able to change a diet of pure filth into perfectly healthy food. I am just trying to understand your philosophy

You can understand my philosophy by reading what I had just said. Those laws didn't have to do with health in the first place, and are not binding for today. You can die from eating a cow as much as a pig. What's one of the first things a doctor says to old men with high cholesterol? No more red meat!

Those who love their neighbors have fulfilled the law, whether they eat red meat, or pork, or chicken or whatever. When you understand that, you will know my philosophy.

What changed between the Old and New covenants is the need for self examination. That is not required when you follow a blanket ordinance to abstain from Christmas trees or eating pig. When you follow the blanket ordinance you don't have to follow faith to see whether or not you are loving your neighbor as yourself.

blanket ordinance vs faith walk under the guidance of love and the Spirit

That's the change between the Old and New covenants. The Law dealt with things from the outside in, so that it was weak through the flesh. The Spirit deals with things from the inside out so that it strong in putting away sin. The sin is in internal problem. It starts internally and the Spirit cleanses it so that you can walk in love for your neighbor.

That is how you analyze what you can do, and from what you should abstain.

Letter of Aristeas  ch 6    v2 for I suppose that most people feel a curiosity with regards

to some of the enactments of the law,especially those about meats and drinks and

animals recognized as unclean.

when we asked why,since there is but one for of creation,some animals are regarded as unclean

for eating,and others unclean even to the touch[for though the law is scrupulous on

most points,it is specially scrupulous on such matters as these] he began his reply as follows;

v4  'You observe,he says what affect our modes of life and our associations have on u;

by associating with the bad,men catch their depravities and become miserable throughout their

lives; but if they live with the wise and prudent,they find the means of escaping from

ignorance and amending their lives..............

.....v16  now our lawgiver being a wise man and specially endowed  by God to understand

all things..took a comprhehensive veiw of each particular detail......AND FENCED US ROUND

WITH IMPREGNABLE RAMPARTS AND WLLS OF IRON,that we might not mingle at all with

any of the other nations[wall seperating jew from gentile]

   v 25 for you must not fall into the degrading idea,that it was out of regard to ice an

weasel's and other uch things that Moses drew up his laws with such exceeding care.

      all these odinances were made for the sake of righteousness to aid the quest for virtue

   and the perfecting of character.

   for all the birds that we use are tame and  distinquished by their cleanliness,feeding

on various kinds of grain and pulse,such as for instance pigeons,turtle-doves,locusts

patridges geese also and all other birds of this class.v 28 but the birds which are forbidden

  you will find to be wild and carnivarous,tyrannizing over the others by the strength

which they possess,and cruelly obtaining food by preying of the tame birds enumerated above.

   And not only so,but they seize lambs and kids, and injure human beings,too,whether

dead or alive, AND SO BY NAMING THEM UNCLEAN HE GAVE A SIGN BY MEANS OF THEM

  THAT THOSE FOR WHOM THIS LEGLISATION WAS ORDAINED,MUST PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS

  IN THEIR HEARTS AND NOT TYRANNIZE OVER ANYONE IN RELIANCE UPON THEIR OWN

  STRENGTH NOR ROB THEM OF ANYTHING,BUT STEER THEIR COURSE OF LIFE IN ACCORDANCE

  WITH JUSTICE,JUST AS THE TAME BIRDS[harmless as doves].................

   v 32   WHEREFORE ALL THE RULES WHICH HE HAS LAID DOWN WITH TO REGARD AS TO WHAT

IS PERMITTED IN THE CSE OF THESE BIRDS AND OTHER ANIMALS,HE HAS ENACTED WITH

THE OBJECT OF TEACHING US A MORAL LESSON>..........lots more please read...

...v 40  for all animals which are cloven footed and chew the cud, represent to the initiated

  memory. For the act of chewing the cud is nothing else than the reminiscence of life

and existence[Thou shalt surely remember the Lord].........lots more........

    v 53 in the case of the wild animals,too the same principle ay be discovered[think wild beast

  in Revelations].  For the character of the weasel and of mice and such animals are

destructive.  Mice defile and damage everything,not only for their own food,but even to

the extent F RENDERING ABSOLUTELY USELESS TO MAN WHATEVER IT FALLS IN THEIR

WAY TO DAMAGE.............


........v 64   and so,concerning meats and things unclean,creeping things and wild beasts

  THE WHOLE SYSTEM AIMS AT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND RIGHTEOUS RELATIONSHIPS

BETWEEN MAN AND MAN>

 

Here is how you can tell that the Laws were not about health:

Matthew 15
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" (no kidding, they believed the opposite) 13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."
15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. (watch closely) 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person;

(keep watching...)

but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them."

But wait a minute. If you eat with unwashed hands, what about bacteria?!!!!! How can Jesus say that eating with unwashed hands does not defile when clearly unwashed hands could contain all manner of deseases?

Health and hygiene has nothing to do with what God says is clean or unclean. It wasn't about health. It was about LOVE. The actions which are disobedient to LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR are the ones you ought to avoid. Celebrating a holiday with vaguely pagan influences has no affect on your walk unless you BELIEVE in the paganism.

there you have it..what the dietary laws were about.  take the hog for instance..it uproots

and renders sterile/void the soil...fit for weeds if anything.  taking all for itself and leaving

nothing left to others for any fit use[greed]

   these are those who purify themselves in the gardens..while all awhile the broth of swine

is in their vessel,saying 'get away,get away! do not touch! I am too holy for you!"

  the broth of the wine in their vessel..is an unclean spirit in them as to how they look

on their fellow man.....

  the law taught these things through natural creation...unclean/clean animals.....

  Jesus taught spiritual things through the spirit..unclean spirits/devils..holy pure spirit etc.

 :iagree:

You do know xmas is pagan and you celebrate it. Is your heart really pure? Or are you just making up excuses to enjoy a pagan feast?

Trying to establish the condition of some ones heart based on information,
ie) he has Christmas tree, is a fools game.

Saying you are doing it because you are concerned about the purity,
of some one else's heart.

Is an excuse to judge our brother and add  an unnecessary burden   

First off I wasn't the one that choose to make this a thread about clean and unclean foods. The other guy brought it up. Now he is saying that Yahweh could not have used pig for two or more purposes. How about in His omniscient mind he saw a way to train His people to obey for the sake of obeying and used the pig. The pig was a great choice for Yahweh considering He could have used the dove. Here are only a few of the reasons the pig was such a great choice. This article was too long to post the whole thing here. http://www.planetization.org/hygiene.htm (http://www.planetization.org/hygiene.htm)

QuoteThe pig or swine is a very popular food item with most Christians. Yet, Christians are unaware that the God they profess to believe in had condemned the eating of swine's flesh. The condemnation based on some very sound biological principles. Here are some facts on pork that prove it to be a very unhealthy food to eat:

A pig is a real garbage gut. It will eat anything including urine, excrement, dirt, decaying animal flesh, maggots, or decaying vegetables. They will even eat the cancerous growths off other pigs or animals.

The meat and fat of a pig absorbs toxins like a sponge. Their meat can be 30 times more toxic than beef or venison.

When eating beef or venison, it takes 8 to 9 hours to digest the meat so what little toxins are in the meat are slowly put into our system and can be filtered by the liver. However, when pork is eaten, it takes only 4 hours to digest the meat. We thus get a much higher level of toxins within a shorter time.

Unlike other mammals, a pig does not sweat or perspire. Perspiration is a means of removing toxins from the body. Since a pig does not sweat, the toxins remain within its body and in the meat.

Pigs and swine are so poisonous that you can hardly kill them with strychnine or other poisons. Farmers often pen up pigs within a rattlesnake nest because the pigs will eat the snakes, and if bitten the venom will not harm them.

I brought up eating meat sacrificed to idols to demonstrate WHY that meat is not unclean of itself.

Quote
First off I wasn't the one that choose to make this a thread about clean and unclean foods. The other guy brought it up. Now he is saying that Yahweh could not have used pig for two or more purposes. How about in His omniscient mind he saw a way to train His people to obey for the sake of obeying and used the pig.

Obeying for the sake of obeying is not what the New Covenant is about. Obeying for the sake of LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR is what the New Covenant is about. The whole covenant with Christ hinges on that point. It's incredibly simple in that way.

That is how you know what is allowed and what is defiled. Everything Jesus listed in Matthew 15 ("evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.") have to do with LOVE or lacking love.

Christmas trees, opening presents, meat sacrificed to idols, pork, festivals, washing hands etc etc etc, you know those things are allowable when they DO NOT intersect with loving your neighbor...

Alright I will agree with most of your last statement. But I would still like to address the issue of how everything became clean to eat. I can post the rest of the article here but if you are not already convinced that pigs are filthy and eating their meat is like a game of Russian roulette. I suppose though its worth the risk if you really have a hankering for a mouth full of yummy toxins and vile, putrid, and disgusting flesh. 

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 04, 2013, 09:44:11 PM
Alright I will agree with most of your last statement. But I would still like to address the issue of how everything became clean to eat. I can post the rest of the article here but if you are not already convinced that pigs are filthy and eating their meat is like a game of Russian roulette. I suppose though its worth the risk if you really have a hankering for a mouth full of yummy toxins and vile, putrid, and disgusting flesh.

I think it's a good idea to wash your hands before dinner because of all the reasons you just described, to wash away the dirt so that you don't get sick. However, that has nothing to do with what is defiled before God. So I am sure eating pig is not a great idea, if for no other reason for the fat and cholesterol, but again, that has nothing to do with whether eating is a matter of disobedience to God.

I take your recommendation to avoid pig as a matter of health concern, and no doubt from a real spirit of concern. But I don't take it as a matter of covenant relationship (obedience/disobedience).

Once the matter strays away from health, and gets into obedience/disobedience is where guilt, fear, condemnation and judging eachother begin to surface and it becomes a religious legalism issue. That is where I find strong disagreement.

Quote from: Seth on December 04, 2013, 09:49:40 PM

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 04, 2013, 09:44:11 PM
Alright I will agree with most of your last statement. But I would still like to address the issue of how everything became clean to eat. I can post the rest of the article here but if you are not already convinced that pigs are filthy and eating their meat is like a game of Russian roulette. I suppose though its worth the risk if you really have a hankering for a mouth full of yummy toxins and vile, putrid, and disgusting flesh.

I think it's a good idea to wash your hands before dinner because of all the reasons you just described, to wash away the dirt so that you don't get sick. However, that has nothing to do with what is defiled before God. So I am sure eating pig is not a great idea, if for no other reason for the fat and cholesterol, but again, that has nothing to do with whether eating is a matter of disobedience to God.

I take your recommendation to avoid pig as a matter of health concern, and no doubt from a real spirit of concern. But I don't take it as a matter of covenant relationship (obedience/disobedience).

Once the matter strays away from health, and gets into obedience/disobedience is where guilt, fear, condemnation and judging eachother begin to surface and it becomes a religious legalism issue. That is where I find strong disagreement.

This is an excellent explanation, imo.

Without starting a debate about the meaning of water baptism, I think we could all agree that being immersed in water has no spiritual significance if it is not done in a Christian context with an understanding of what Christ has done on one's behalf. So, if a Christian ritual does nothing by itself, I don't know why we need to worry about Christmas rituals being a spiritual detriment because of their "roots." Nothing about Christmas trees, giving gifts, outdoor lights, etc. strikes me as pagan in nature. I think what matters is how we symbolically interpret them. They mean nothing unless we attach a meaning. Similar to how immersion in water, if not done in a Christian context and understanding, means nothing.

Samuel

QuoteChrist said, "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9). Christmas is not a command of God—it is a tradition of men. Christ continued, "Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition" (Mark 7:9). Every year, throughout the world, on December 25th, hundreds of millions do just that!

The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. You may want to consider your tradition as your very own re-enactment of ancient Babylonian worship. This is what you have learned from the Babylonians, how they worship their gods.

QuoteDeut 12                                                                                                                                                                                                       30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 06, 2013, 04:00:17 AM

QuoteChrist said, "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9). Christmas is not a command of God—it is a tradition of men. Christ continued, "Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition" (Mark 7:9). Every year, throughout the world, on December 25th, hundreds of millions do just that!

The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. You may want to consider your tradition as your very own re-enactment of ancient Babylonian worship. This is what you have learned from the Babylonians, how they worship their gods.

QuoteDeut 12                                                                                                                                                                                                       30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

:faint:

Good grief man. Nobody is worshipping false gods by having a Christmas tree in their house. Nobody can worship something THEY DON'T BELIEVE!  :doh:

You can post a million of those scriptures. They all say to be careful to avoid worshipping false gods. An idol itself is nothing in the world. The only God that exists is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

More info on the Mark 7 verse

Mark 7
9 And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Nullifying the word of God means to not love your neighbor as yourself. Their traditions were built around taking money from the people in the name of God, and this greed is what caused the common folk to not have enough money to honor their mothers and fathers.

This greed is at the heart which had no care for the mothers and fathers who could not receive anything because it had been taken away, causing the commandment to "honor your mother and father" to be nullified. Then he finishes thus:

Mark 7
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

20 He went on: "What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person."

Worshipping false gods comes from within a man, not from without a man.

I'll bet you that Nelson Mandella will be more of an idol than santa claus or frosty this Christmas. The towns and cities we live in, are full of statues of once famous people. I have nothing against these people but I'm not bowing down to their image or dancing around Christmas trees, naked, and chanting tribal laments.

Some believers do Christmas, some don't. The Lord is concerned with the heart, no matter what the idol might be. These statues of cold stone and wood don't have an opinion.

Shalom

Jock. :dontknow:

Amen, Jock

Quote from: Seth on December 04, 2013, 02:14:08 AM
I have posted twice already because this is a passionate topic for me, because I believe the ordinances of men forced upon others leads to unhappiness, unnecessary self denial, guilt and fear. I will simply provide what I think the difference is between messages:

Apostle Paul: Don't do anything that harms your faith.

Judiazers: Don't do anything vaguely connected to paganism because paganism is bad.

The missing link in the Judiazer's message is: FAITH. Judaizers have no concern about faith and do not preach from that perspective at all. They insist that the act itself, or the distant history of the act, is the problem and not preservation of faith, and the walk according to the Spirit.

Does it harm your faith, or your brother's faith? That is the real question.

That is something that everyone needs to examine for themselves and NOT live by somebody else's ordinances, because those ordinances are determined by their own consciences. What they might deny themselves may have no impact on your faith.

2 Corinthians 24
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Too many Christians are allowing other Christians to have dominion over their faith through their legalism.

hi! I've read this thread thus far.. Seth, you've presented your points very excellently!!

And Sheila and Julie Tang too!

Of course, I would have to say a strip club is a far cry from celebrating a holiday, even Christmas and Easter, with your family and loved ones.. and "the heart is very deceptive". Jesus of course would not be affected by the lust of the flesh.. (I'm not saying no one would or could ever be called to enter those places or that orbit. I do think one could ignore the dancing, much like when I'm in a crowd i will often find myself politely ignoring most folks busy with whatever they are busy with, like at an airport, everyone waiting around. It seems to usually be called for. To me anyway. I.e I am a people watcher, and enjoy it, but I do so without being noticed doing so. Maybe it's just me who doesn't like to be watched at the airport or what not! :laughing7: Altho! I would strongly caution most folks against entering strip clubs, thatt is to say, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do so! "The heart is desperately wicked and deceptive"! jes sayin, just in case..)

In China, I have heard it said, the only way or time (principally) that folks in China get to hear about Jesus and the gospel is through hearing the why of Christmas and Easter.. not the pagan why, the Christian why.. which took over the holidays..

Now I'm not eager to give the holidays back to the pagans..

Also, who owns all days? Were December 25 and the moveable feast of Easter, days which did not originally (and always) belong to our heavenly Father?

As far as I'm concerned we simply took those days back. I personally enjoy the lights on the Christmas tree.. I turn them on early in the morning during my morning quiet time and they put me in mind of stained glass windows.. I find them worship inspiring (not that other things aren't also).

"God is light" no one else.. Not even Saturnalia, who was cast off 'his' throne by Jesus' victorious ride of overcoming all principalities and powers he openly triumphed over.. given the chance, the opposer would resurrect those fallen powers and put them back on the thrones of certain days. I'm happy to keep them covered with the story of Jesus.. Which we also get these added opportunities to tell the story of Jesus and the why..

Our prayer at Easter is the only witness I get to give to certain devout atheists in my family.. Unless i want to be obnoxious and bring up something they have no interest in hearing or discussing.. my one line (when or if I'm asked to say the grace) of thanking Jesus for rescuing aLL from death, they put up with, and I consider it seed planted in their heart and mind..

But (and) like Sheila said, judge nothing before its time.. and Romans 14 says "one esteems all days alike" and "another doesn't".. and how each one of them is doing as they deem proper and they each do so "in honor of God".
And to, "Let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind.." :smile:

Awesome post Marie Glen,

Quote from: Marie GlenIn China, I have heard it said, the only way or time (principally) that folks in China get to hear about Jesus and the gospel is through hearing the why of Christmas and Easter.. not the pagan why, the Christian why.. which took over the holidays..

What this and your Easter comments remind me of is how that God uses what was intended for evil, and turns it around for good. I think about Gehenna and how the Jews in Jeremiah were using the fire to sacrifice their children to false gods, which is an evil thing. But then, Jesus turns that around and uses it as an example of how the disciples can use that in a cleansing manner (ie. cut out your eyes and throw them into the fire of Gehenna to be burned up).

Just as the Jews had sacrificed their children outside the city to false gods, God turned it around and was in Christ sacrificing his willing Son outside the city as well. What they meant for evil, God can use for good.

But as long as we have this OUTSIDE>IN concept of defilement as the followers of the Old Covenant, we could never do that.

 :thumbsup:  the seven woes are associated with this outward clean mindset/seven plagues

of Babyln and the shiny garment associated with it/strange apparell.  It is strange to God

that any should clothe themselves with theeir own righteousness in the flesh..and not take

the wedding garment offered/free gift of righteousness by spirit provided by His son.

   

now,some may argue that the strange aapparel would be such customs as christmas from the nations

around Israel. but in Psalm 45 the daughter of Tyre comes with a robe. and men of wealth seek her

favour.and in Proverbsshe makes linen sashes and sells them to the merchants she sees thAT

her trading is profitable[parable of talents..note the 'one' talent possesor does not increase

  has not love.......and see's God as harsh...saying He reaps where He does not sow[in effect saying

   God has no right to reap increase of wheat from a feild with tares sown in it.]he uses the

evidence of 'weeds' as the enemies right to possesss..and accuses God of theft.



       

 

Well I have to say this thread has been   ''eye opening '' !! 
Thanks to everyones input !  really  appreciated   , I have been reading it for days even when it was  under   the other title ...  boycott  radio shack ...

never  was going to say anything , but now  ,  my heart was stony  and a bit hardened  , only because I DO NOT KNOW all the facts  on any opinion [judgment ] we hold  dear to our hearts / minds  and yes they can Change !! Thank God   for that !!

  For me [this was and maybe not so much now   an opinion /judment  , I clung too 
we can only see as far as the Lord God is willing to let us see anything   , but everyone sharing what the LIGHT /  KNOWLEGE  of GOD though Jesus Christ  gives us all   , to speak of what we hear in the darkness    from the Spirit of Holy God   , shout it on the rooftops !

I felt   the  ''holidays ''   were of this world and comercialize     for profit    the kings of the earth  exchanging gifts to one another in the sacrifice of Gods Son  to the world   , by Babylon , the false   Church /religion of men ,    the one John the revelator  was so easily    awed  and marveled   over
and was  given an admonishment     from the Angel [messenger ]     why are you so surprised  at her glory in the earth for ?

   and the exploiting the chinese  workers to make the  trinkets  and  dressings  of the  Christmas and Easter    decorations etc    and   man made ''junk'' we are to buy  and give one another on a certain day ....   

  But realizing  ,  after the many posts exchanged    by some here
  I dont really ''worship ''    those things or hold them in high esteem   
these are not the treasures  of /mine or others  heart !
  so thank  you  all for sharing   and caring enough to make some very  valid points !!
  they have helped  greatly  !   and removed a stumbling block  that   needed to be removed

  we all do things for a reason or we  would not do them 
  doing them for the right reason  is the only reason they should be done at all  ... 
    sometimes we dont know why we do what we do , and that makes us question our ''faith ''    what we actually do believe in   ..
   

HI edit: Rosered (sorry, I said Sheila),
Yes, the reasons we do things are so important. Many people quote Old Testament passages without realizing how Christ synthesized those passages to his teaching and to the New Covenant that he brought. This is how he was able to declare all meats clean, when the Law had said some meats were unclean: what comes out of a man is what defiles him.

For example:

Jeremiah 7
17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Well, if gathering wood, and kindling the fire, and kneading dough to break bread was a pagan process, I guess we should avoid those things too, right? Legalism rears its ugly head, when we ignore Christ's synthesis of the Old Covenant to the New, and creates rules like these:

---------

1) It's fine to gather wood, kindle a fire, and make dough for cakes as long as you don't do it in the order above: child, then father, then mother. Make sure to vary the process so as not to follow the pagan ritual.

or,

2) Don't gather wood to bake cakes which require kneading. Only use wood for cakes which require mixing.

or,

3) Don't make or eat ANY cakes which have been cooked in a wood burning stove whatsoever just to cover all bases.

--------

Which of these is the correct way? Which one makes you clean or unclean? These are the kind of traditions that the Jews would engage in when they thought that the external act defiled them, rather than the internal intention, and legalism abounded that way.

But we know all these admonitions are ridiculous because what is really important is that they made cakes "to the queen of heaven."

Without that INTENTION, you can send your child out for wood, then kindle the fire, and let your wife bake the bread because you know you are not honoring a pagan god, even if the actions look the same.

What matters is the conscience according to faith.

in Acts 17;17 Paul took advantage of the altar of the Unknown God to try and reach them.....

  to a gentile he become as a gentile[nations]   he said they were worshipping a God they do

not know......these to whom God remains a mystery.  Roman/Greek influence christians rep

the ram who speaks like a dragon for they do not know God. the goat is the Muslem/Ishmael

counterpart.....and the unbeleiving jewsalong with them make up the three portions of hair

in Ezekiel's ch 5 demonstration.. of the seige of Jerusalem that now is...these are all situated in the

Jerusalem that now is over in

Israel. rep Hagar in bondage..you will find them fighting over the  city...also see Ezekiel eating

the scroll which tasted sweet as honey to his mouth.....

 

         


 

   

Seth I wasn't aware that gathering wood, kindling a fire, or kneading dough to break bread was, is, or has been an ancient pagan practice. You are really grabbing at straws using that as an example of an ancient pagan tradition. Those were the laws the Jews had added to the laws of Yahweh for honoring the Sabbath which were done away with at the cross. The laws of Yahweh still stand and the added ones are gone. Your argument has become outright ludicrous. 

My parents talk about their freedom in Christ like you do. They believe that freedom means "do as thou wilt" and its perfectly exceptable to Yahweh because they profess to worship His Son by following all of the ancient pagan practices and say they are doing it for Yashua. I am sorry I still don't understand how pagan practices change into worship because of freedom/liberty.

Yes Seth, it is all about honoring Father in thought and action, with the caveat that one's heart is in sync always with the Spirit of love and truth.

If the heart is not inline then every action is pagan.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 06, 2013, 10:45:22 PM
Seth I wasn't aware that gathering wood, kindling a fire, or kneading dough to break bread was, is, or has been an ancient pagan practice. You are really grabbing at straws using that as an example of an ancient pagan tradition. Those were the laws the Jews had added to the laws of Yahweh for honoring the Sabbath which were done away with at the cross. The laws of Yahweh still stand and the added ones are gone. Your argument has become outright ludicrous. 

The Israelites did engage in pagan worship. God is telling you how they made cakes as offerings to the "queen of heaven." The argument is valid in that the process of baking cakes is not in itself the problem, but doing it to intentionally make offerings to a false god is the problem. The manner by which Christ declared all meats clean is the manner by which we know this, that what proceeds from the heart is what actually defiles. Not realizing that results in all manner of religious legalism, brothers judging and condemning eachother without knowing the hearts as God does.  :thumbdown:

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 06, 2013, 10:45:22 PMI am sorry I still don't understand how pagan practices change into worship because of freedom/liberty.

The freedom is in knowing that loving your neighbor fulfills the Law. The freedom is in knowing that it is what proceeds from the heart that defiles: the inward defiles the outward NOT vice-versa. Therefore, there is no worship of a pagan god in celebrating Christmas, if one does not even believe in the paganism.

So, because God OWNS all the pine trees, and all the ornaments, and all the water that feeds the tree, we can give thanks to God and not be condemned for what we eat or do that is not contrary to LOVE. Therefore, what is intended for evil, can be turned around for good, just as in Marie Glen's example of Chinese people learning about Christ because of the holidays, the only time they can hear about him. Very simple.

Quote from: JulieTang84 on December 06, 2013, 10:49:12 PM
Yes Seth, it is all about honoring Father in thought and action, with the caveat that one's heart is in sync always with the Spirit of love and truth.

If the heart is not inline then every action is pagan.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

mplsfitter, I agree with you that our freedom in Christ shouldn't be an occasion to sin.  Right on.

OTOH to the general discussion, it SEEMS TO ME that some things are clear and obvious - murder, adultery, active homosexuality, stealing, etc., "which those that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God".    Then some things SEEM to be a matter of conscience, where we can reason, present what we believe to be relevant information, and then follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and our conscience in our own lives, while accepting others to do the same.  It may be that we disagree, and even don't fully fellowship in and over some things, still, if one believes on Yashua as the Savior, then accepting each other as brothers and sisters in the Master.  Admittedly, it can be (for me) very difficult to know where the "lines" are sometimes.

Does this apply overall?

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....

Blessings.

Yes, in fact, I think you could have posted the entire chapter. I think the entire chapter of Romans 14 squares it away.

Romans 14
22Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It would be sinful for someone to celebrate Christmas in doubting that he is free to do it. But blessed and happy is the man who does not judge himself in the thing he allows. The connective tissue in the entire chapter 14 is that we do it unto God. That is how we know that Paul is not talking about allowing sexual immorality, and murder, because God is Love, and those things are outside of Love.

But things which ARE done unto God, blessed is the man who does not condemn himself in what he allows. It's pretty clear. LOVE fuflills the Law. That's the guideline. So, celebrating Christmas and eating meat sacrificed to idols is neutral to that end, which is why you can allow it if you wish.

Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2013, 11:50:44 PM
Does this apply overall?

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....

Blessings.

James I really believe Paul addresses this contentious issue perfectly. Thank you


1Cr 10:24
No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

1Cr 10:25, 26
Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

1Cr 10:27
If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.

1Cr 10:28
But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.

1Cr 10:29
I am referring to the other person's conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another's conscience?

1Cr 10:30
If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

1Cr 10:31
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.


As I stated earlier, EVERYTHING must be done for Father for HIS Glory, though Mind, Spirit and Soul.

There is NO LAW against such!!!!!  :friendstu:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcatAdmittedly, it can be (for me) very difficult to know where the "lines" are sometimes.

I think you added while I was replying. So I went back and saw this. To me it used to be difficult, but I think that there is a very simple yardstick to use, that makes it all very simple.

Love fulfills the Law. Love God and love your neighbor. That's it. Just ask yourselves, am I loving God, and loving my neighbor? If so, then your heart is right with God in what you do, and everything you do will fall into place.

Quote from: Seth on December 07, 2013, 12:10:12 AM
Yes, in fact, I think you could have posted the entire chapter. I think the entire chapter of Romans 14 squares it away.

Romans 14
22Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It would be sinful for someone to celebrate Christmas in doubting that he is free to do it. But blessed and happy is the man who does not judge himself in the thing he allows. The connective tissue in the entire chapter 14 is that we do it unto God. That is how we know that Paul is not talking about allowing sexual immorality, and murder, because God is Love, and those things are outside of Love.

But things which ARE done unto God, blessed is the man who does not condemn himself in what he allows. It's pretty clear. LOVE fuflills the Law. That's the guideline. So, celebrating Christmas and eating meat sacrificed to idols is neutral to that end, which is why you can allow it if you wish.

:thumbsup: :iagree:


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

When I started reading where I left off earlier today, I wanted to insert many quotes in this comment, but then as I read on, there were so very many great points I would want to insert as quotes, that I decided not to! but i probably won't be able to fully resist..

I'm glad "eating meat sacrificed to idols" was brought up as that was what i was thinking about while reading..
- - - - -- - - - - -

.."note the 'one' talent possesor does not increase

  has not love.......and see's God as harsh..."

Sheila, I never thought of that.. but it is surely right on! And also especially, "It is strange to God

that any should clothe themselves with theeir own righteousness in the flesh..and not take

the wedding garment offered/free gift of righteousness by spirit provided by His son." ! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Julie, I love what you wrote! (as usual/as i always do:) "If the heart is not inline then every action is pagan."

..It kind of reminded me of how Grace is the Power of God.. and how the scripture says the law dilutes that power

...not that, as you, Mpslitter, and Jabcat, rightly point out, it is not "do as thou wilt".. But it is a strong power within, which results in seldom having to say "today i will not murder" (hate, dislike?) or "today i will not defraud, cheat, etc" for the power progressively working within a born again believer is the same power which rose Jesus from the grave (and also btw, parted the Red Sea, etc, etc.. created the universe in six days).. The whole idea (to God, I believe) is for us to not have the motivations to, well, do anything outside of His will, which is love.. "Love works no ill"

I like Seth's - "Love God and love your neighbor. That's it. Just ask yourselves, am I loving God, and loving my neighbor? If so, then your heart is right with God in what you do, and everything you do will fall into place. " - (I also got out of that - whatever we do or speak, is the motive love? (thanks, Seth)

JulieTang, you are right in how you always say "love! it's Love!"

"God is love."

..all are learning and will have deeply engraved on their hearts.. love. "Writing His law on our" (beating, alive, soft, pliant) "heart". (With his very finger(?) as He wrote "the law" on stone.)

Quote from: rosered on December 06, 2013, 09:06:26 PM

.... I felt   the  "holidays "   were of this world and comercialize     for profit    the kings of the earth  exchanging gifts to one another in the sacrifice of Gods Son  to the world   , by Babylon...

   ...and the exploiting the chinese  workers to make the  trinkets  and  dressings  of the  Christmas and Easter    decorations etc    and   man made "junk" we are to buy  and give one another on a certain day ....   

Rose, i most certainly can see that!! It's too bad our world has descended into such commercialism! the world filled with billboards, flashing lights! It's the new religion of the day! (Or one of them..?)

I also really liked -

Quote from: rosered on December 06, 2013, 09:06:26 PM
 
But realizing  ,  (snipped for brevity/quote)   I dont really "worship "    those things or hold them in high esteem   
these are not the treasures  of /mine or others  heart !

....
  we all do things for a reason or we  would not do them 
  doing them for the right reason  is the only reason they should be done at all  ...

Again...? Love!..?   :gsmile:

Quote from: marie glen on December 07, 2013, 02:05:53 AM

Quote from: rosered on December 06, 2013, 09:06:26 PM

.... I felt   the  "holidays "   were of this world and comercialize     for profit    the kings of the earth  exchanging gifts to one another in the sacrifice of Gods Son  to the world   , by Babylon...

   ...and the exploiting the chinese  workers to make the  trinkets  and  dressings  of the  Christmas and Easter    decorations etc    and   man made "junk" we are to buy  and give one another on a certain day ....   

Rose, i most certainly can see that!! It's too bad our world has descended into such commercialism! the world filled with billboards, flashing lights! It's the new religion of the day! (Or one of them..?)

I also really liked -

Quote from: rosered on December 06, 2013, 09:06:26 PM
 
But realizing  ,  (snipped for brevity/quote)   I dont really "worship "    those things or hold them in high esteem   
these are not the treasures  of /mine or others  heart !

....
  we all do things for a reason or we  would not do them 
  doing them for the right reason  is the only reason they should be done at all  ...

Again...? Love!..?   :gsmile:

Amen sister Marie !!!     Love you ALL!!
  I was thinking when we are walking in the Spirit  we are walking in Love  , and thought of Paul and his   experience     in 2Corinthians  12   and How Gods grace is sufficent   for us

  when we look on our flesh its weak and sinful in nature and Love is hardly  the motive  , we do well to love our own  family and   much less our enemies    those whom   frustrate  us the most

  and thought of his unlawful to speak about   experience  ,in his taste of  the Paradise of God   !!  wow I cannot wait till we  can all   experience   this !!   we will not be   judging anyones  faith in what is allowed   for   we will KNOW   HOW GLORIOUS GODS GRACE   has been  and REALLY IS !!
2 Corinthians 12
New Living Translation (NLT)

Paul's Vision and His Thorn in the Flesh
12 This boasting will do no good, but I must go on.

I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord.


2 I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago.

Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don't know—only God knows.

3 Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know 4 that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.


5 That experience is worth boasting about, but I'm not going to do it.


I will boast only about my weaknesses.



6 If I wanted to boast, I would be no fool in doing so, because I would be telling the truth.



But I won't do it, because I don't want anyone to give me credit beyond what they can see in my life or hear in my message,

7 even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud,


I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

8 Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away.


9 Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness."
So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 10 That's why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


    we can and  do   suffer   for Christs sake ,  just trying to share our  faith and experiences   ,  but can count  it as joy one day     , I hope  soon       :girlheart:   

ps you really added with Seth in the Chinese reciving  Words of Christ      when they hardly have anything but  heavy loads to bear    working  for  little to nothing   , they can hope in Christ  as well ,  praying for them also  such oppression in the flesh  and this world , I do thank God that Jesus kingdom   is NOT of this world !!        we see it though the eye of faith  given by the Lord Himself     

One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

Quote from: Graph1159 on December 07, 2013, 08:31:33 AM
One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

Paul said we should strive for the narrow gate. If the masses are doing something then we need to set ourselves apart from it. Haven't we learned yet that we are a very small group of people?

Seth I just have to say one more thing to you. I felt it was unfair for you to imply that those who don't do x-mas are weak. To insinuate that Christians who practice x mass are stronger than those who don't do it out of respect to Yahweh.
During the Christ's ministry he ate with the pagans. That did not make Him a pagan because He was not celebrating their pagan holidays. Now if you have any examples other than that can you show me where the Christ attended any pagan festivals. This I believe would be important to include in the Gospels if it had taken place. Yahshua is the pattern that we are to strive to be like.
 
Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

DuWayne

..i'm thinking the narrow gate is faith alone.. Jesus on the his throne (in our hearts) alone.. to put anything there with Him, whether, a christ-mas tree, shopping, the law.. anything on that throne / mixed with grace is an idol.

I've often thought to mix law/my effort / my 'goodness' (tongue in cheek) in order to have God's approval, is to put myself on that throne with Jesus, making of myself an idol..

decorating a tree is not the evil.. shopping is not the evil.. but bowing down to the tree, yes.. or decorating it in the honor of another so called (imaginery) god, yes (an epiphany of ignorance!)

God alone (surely?) owns all trees.. all lights

the word says Jesus will judge "the reigns" / the motives and intents..
                           :girlheart:

Hi DuWayne,
I think that the Scriptures you've quoted about being separate from unbelievers and avoiding their ways of worship, are referring to acts of sin done as worship to their gods (such as sacrificing their children and temple prostitution). These acts are inherently evil. There is nothing that we can do to justify them and make them acceptable to God. So, God tells us to stay away from them because nothing good comes of them.

I respect your conviction, and I am not trying to change your personal stance. But for me to personally decide that Christmas is immoral, I would need to see Scriptures which show that neutral activities become permanently pagan if they originated in pagan rituals. If you see such passages let me know and I will take a look.

Samuel

Quote from: Graph1159 on December 07, 2013, 08:31:33 AM
One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

:idea2: :thumbsup:

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 07, 2013, 01:58:46 PM
Haven't we learned yet that we are a very small group of people?

just a thought, Paul said not to separate ourselves from the people of the world, but from a brother or sister living a sinful lifestyle.. (not including all of us with our flaws, but a sin full life style)

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 07, 2013, 01:58:46 PM
Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

DuWayne

..again.. sin full lifestyle.. as a cheat, thief, adulterer, chaser of skirts, etc.. not if we wash our hands before meals..

Romans 14 seems to me, to be saying in all secondary matters (including eating meat that was sacrificed to an idol :Chinscratch: ) - like with the original saturday sabbath -  it's ok for one to observe it even tho it's part of the Old Testament requirements

..which requirements came after "the promise" spoken to Abraham - for one is observing it "unto God", but also is ok for one to "esteem all days alike" - now there's a drove of people who "esteem all days alike"

"for the one who esteems all days alike" (and, or every day having sabbath time? which seems to be common also) is also doing so "unto God" (I myself would think of Saturday Sabbath as preferable for me, if I could only manage to have a day totally free of work that is!! but I see nothing wrong with honoring the Lord on Sunday, even if it's named sun-day after the so called (imaginary) 'sun god' - satur-day, too is named after the notorious saturnalia.. Both days remain belonging to the creator, surely?

..it seems to me the gist of it, and what Sheila was first posting is, we are not to judge one another in these things, but to "let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind"

the whole of Romans 14 (and also Colossians 2:16?) I think of Christianity taking over these holidays, days the pagans stole from God, as part of that triumphant ride of Christ where he openly made a show of triumphing over principalities and powers

Perfectly ok and not inferior to not observe Christ-mas, as it is done in honor of one's God.. until they start to make a commandment for others out of it.. we have one commandment.. Love God totally, the 2nd will be fulfilled by our doing the 1st.. this is easy, this burden is light, and we should not throw any stumbling blocks (other commandments) in the path of any others.. letting their walk be easy and the burden light.. (albeit our walk is not without of course persecutions, weaknesses, etc) But our trying to please God is thru believing and receiving.. and thus being born again and enabled to love God, our one rule and commandment. Love draws, rules scatter (imo:)

God bless!! :girlheart:

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 07, 2013, 01:58:46 PM
Seth I just have to say one more thing to you. I felt it was unfair for you to imply that those who don't do x-mas are weak. To insinuate that Christians who practice x mass are stronger than those who don't do it out of respect to Yahweh.
During the Christ's ministry he ate with the pagans. That did not make Him a pagan because He was not celebrating their pagan holidays. Now if you have any examples other than that can you show me where the Christ attended any pagan festivals. This I believe would be important to include in the Gospels if it had taken place. Yahshua is the pattern that we are to strive to be like.

A weak conscience does not make for a weak person. That is not what Apostle Paul meant with his use of the term. We are told not to lead a brother into that which he believes is harmful, so I would never encourage anyone to celebrate Christmas if they think it will displease God.

Anyway, attending pagan festivals would be perfectly fine. In 1 Cor 8:10, paul says we can even be "dining in an idol's temple". So it's not even just the meat. You can actually go and sit in the temple of a false god, eat the meal with the pagan, and not have a harmed conscience. I think it's straining at a gnat to say, "yes you can sit in the temple with them, and eat with them, but don't go to their festival." Brother, please!

The only caveat Paul provides is to take care in not offending the consciences of others who don't realize such freedom.

It simply depends on why you are there. It was a pagan practice to eat meat sacrificed to idols. A Christian may partake of the same only if his participation does not harm another, including not validating the religion itself.

For example, the Christian would not himself sacrifice meat to an idol because he knows the idol is nothing, and believes in God instead. BUT, he may eat the meat because the meat is not itself tainted by the practice. Nothing is unclean OF ITSELF. Knowing what ACTUALLY defiles a man is a guideline to what is allowed and what is not.

Celebrating Christmas does not validate pagan beliefs, nor does it endorse them. Because it is neutral to loving God and loving fellow man, there is no harm in having Christmas trees or stockings or coming together for a meal, if the faith is not harmed by it, which is is not.

Quote from: Graph1159 on December 07, 2013, 08:31:33 AM
One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

Yes, also consider this hypothetical situation.

Suppose an investigator is studying the scene of the crime. The victim was bowing to a false god. The investigator wishing to recreate the scene retraces the victims steps, even getting into the crouching position of the victim.

Is he worshipping a false god? No, of course not. His intention has nothing to do with that, so he has not defiled himself.

The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. You may want to consider your tradition as your very own re-enactment of ancient Babylonian worship. This is what you have learned from the Babylonians, how they worship their gods.

If we look at this issue up side down and inside out.

At a meeting lets say a meeting of witches.
The head witch says to the new witches,

Do not participate in any way in Halloween
I know you where brought in the tradition.
That Halloween was a time for witches to celebrate.

Did you witches know that Halloween was actually a
Christian  celebration.
So I know that not celebrating Halloween is going to difficult for
some of you .
The danger in celebrating Halloween, is that since this tradition
has Christian origins .Those that celebrate Halloween might turn into Christians

We have to stay away from any thing that has     

Quote from: Seth on December 07, 2013, 08:03:21 PM

A weak conscience does not make for a weak person. That is not what Apostle Paul meant with his use of the term. We are told not to lead a brother into that which he believes is harmful, so I would never encourage anyone to celebrate Christmas if they think it will displease God.

Very well said.

Quote from: Seth on December 07, 2013, 08:03:21 PM
Anyway, attending pagan festivals would be perfectly fine. In 1 Cor 8:10, paul says we can even be "dining in an idol's temple". So it's not even just the meat. You can actually go and sit in the temple of a false god, eat the meal with the pagan, and not have a harmed conscience.

I'm glad you brought this up Seth because I have been confused about it for a long time. Paul seems to contradict himself on the idol meat question. In Chapter 8 he does imply that someone could eat in a temple with a clean conscience. But in Chapter 10 verse 28, he says that if you know a piece of meat has been sacrificed to idols, don't eat it. Earlier in the chapter he wrote,
"Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?"

The argument seems to be that if you know that the meat has been sacrificed to idols, then to eat it is to participate in paganism. But how does this square with Chapter 8?

It goes back to why you abstain from eating the meat when you know that has been sacrificed to idols. The reason Paul gives is not to preserve your own conscience but for care of another. We don't want to validate the worship of Satan or of false idols.so clearly when Paul is speaking about a rousing gods jealousy he is talking about not participating in those practices with the intent of your heart to do the same as the pagans. that is why we would never make sacrifices to the gods as they do because we do not believe in those gods. you cannot make a sacrifice to that what you do not believe. Its not a sacrifice if you don't believe in it. That's why paul says flee from all idolatry. Idolatry   comes from the heart not the hands.It all goes back to why you were there. at the very bottom of the chapter you can see why Paul says not to eat to meet. Not for your own conscience sake but for that of another.

That is why he has the freedom to do what he does. This shows that it is not the actual practice that is defiled what comes out from your heart is what defiled you Jesus says this emphatically and we cannot ignore  it. It is not the outside things that defile us but what we intended I heart. Whatever we do we need to do unto God.

God is jealous when we depart from him in our hearts and that is what would defile us. Since God owns the Christmas tree, for example,and all the ornaments, then what we know it is the pagans who took what was what was Gods and use it for their worship. essentially, they stole his goods to use in their evil ceremonies with the intent to worship false gods.So if a believer hangs ornaments on a Christmas tree he is taking all the things that belongs to God and using it either for neutral purpose or unto God and therefore he is clean

I get it now. So it's actually excepted by Yahweh when anyone brings there child to satan clause and sets them in his lap just like they did in Babylon with the cast iron pot bellied god chemish heated until cherry red? Ok I see where Yahweh would think that's cute because now its just a re-enactment of the ritual because now the intent is different. It's all about intent not the actual ritual it's self. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me. I have learned much about what it means to be a Christian. We can pretty much do what ever we want but we have to say we are doing it for Yahweh and then its perfectly fine.

I understand your frustration with another  brothers freedom

BTW, my daughter sitting on Santa Clause's lap is no different than if she went to Disneyland and sat on Mickey Mouse's lap. Both are equally harmless to her. Santa is nothing but a fictional cartoon character.

There is NO such thing as inadvertent worship of anything. So, please save your self-righteous indignation. It's one thing for a person to be convicted in themselves about a thing, but entirely another to attempt to sow binding seeds of guilt among the free with a lack of understanding. That's where I draw the line.

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on December 07, 2013, 10:28:36 PM
I get it now. So it's actually excepted by Yahweh when anyone brings there child to satan clause and sets them in his lap just like they did in Babylon with the cast iron pot bellied god chemish heated until cherry red? Ok I see where Yahweh would think that's cute because now its just a re-enactment of the ritual because now the intent is different. It's all about intent not the actual ritual it's self. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me. I have learned much about what it means to be a Christian. We can pretty much do what ever we want but we have to say we are doing it for Yahweh and then its perfectly fine.

I have learned much about what it means to be a Christian :eek:

Quote from: Seth on December 08, 2013, 12:17:58 AM
BTW, my daughter sitting on Santa Clause's lap is no different than if she went to Disneyland and sat on Mickey Mouse's lap. Both are equally harmless to her. Santa is nothing but a fictional cartoon character.

Not really. Santa is a Christianized version of the Norsk god Odin who was hunting in the sky and gave gifts to kids who gave carrots for Odin's horse. Odin the mighty hunter is Nimrod the mighty hunter.

QuoteThere is NO such thing as inadvertent worship of anything.

I'm sure your daughter isn't worshipping santa. For me it's undeniable the roots of Santa/Xmas (and easter, Halloween and new years eve) are as pagan as it can get. Sure, celebration and even the names of the associated gods have changed greatly and frequently during history. Regardless of the fact that the celebrators of these festivals have pure intentions or not.

God clearly commanded not to follow the ways of the pagans. So the question at hand is if the celebration of  xmas, easter, etc, have lost enough of the pagan roots, for God not viewing those festivals as pagan anymore.

The real question at hand is this: what is proceeding from your heart to defile? Since Christ said that what proceeds from the heart defiles, we must ask whether we are following the ways of pagans from within. It was the way of pagans to eat meat sacrificed to idols, something we know from the NT is not inherently wrong to do. Odin is as fictional as Mickey Mouse. So the question is, are you worshipping or believing in Odin or Mickey Mouse or Santa Clause?

The meat we eat is from a local butcher and none of it is sacrificed to anybody but I do thank God that we have meat on our table.

The only meat I won't eat is "Halal" meat because of the brutal way they slaughter the animals. They also pray over it, to Allah.

Apart from that, the Lord doesn't want us hung up on such things. It is what comes out of our mouths that defiles us.

Jock.  :2c:

The Halal issue is a perfect example. Refusing the meat out of concern for the chicken's treatment is a good reason. It shows kindness. But if the chickens were treated well, and the only thing left is that they pray to Allah over it, my view is that you are perfectly fine to eat it. Nothing is wrong with it. The only reason you would want to abstain is for the benefit of the Muslim, to not validate the practice. But if it's just you and the chicken, it's totally fine to eat.

When Jesus said that what proceeds from the heart defiles, it is the absolute death knel to legalism because nobody knows your heart but you and God. So nobody can make that determination but you regarding things which are not contrary to loving your neighbor as yourself.

This was a revolutionary concept when Jesus said it because the Jews didn't live that way.

I agree with you, Seth. In fact,I was going to write in as an addendum that I "could" eat Halal but it's my personal choice not to, nothing spiritual.

Thing is, If I didn't eat Halal because of the law, then I called the days of the week, their Roman, Teutonic, Greek names, or used the Gregorian calendar, I would be guilty of the whole truckload. (the law)

The Pharisees were strict concerning the law, but Jesus told them that if they even glanced twice at a maiden, then they have committed adultery in their hearts. In other words, Jesus made it even tougher for them to show them that they needed a Saviour! After all, what man doesn't notice a good looking woman walking down the street?!  :declare:

I was thinking about David eating the showbread, he did it because his men were hungry. For me to do such a thing, I would have to look to Christ's heart, not my own, because my heart is full of deadly poison and wickedness.

Shalom

Jock :2c:

Quote from: Jock on December 08, 2013, 12:43:13 PM
I was thinking about David eating the showbread, he did it because his men were hungry. For me to do such a thing, I would have to look to Christ's heart, not my own, because my heart is full of deadly poison and wickedness.

Shalom

Jock :2c:

Jock here are your  :2c: back. I am so sorry that you have such a poor view of your heart. Are you not a new person?  :sigh:

Jesus said: You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' John 3:7

and then Peter:  For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.  1Pe 1:23   :girlheart:

Paul spoke of this on many occasions, but here is one: But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.  Rom 7:6

I have the greatest respect for you Jock and can very much see the Spirit in and through your posts.

MPisFitter....  Likewise, I respect you greatly too (more than you could know) Each of us have been released from the old law, which means all of the bindings and judging associated with them. This is however, NOT a CARTE BLANCHE white wash so that ALL is NOW Permissible.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Rom 6:1, 2

By know means am I suggesting that your Spirit given beliefs are wrong, they are just different than mine. There is Nothing wrong with this, for we must all walk our own spiritual walk.

Hopefully all understand perfectly that Jesus was speaking to EVERYONE personally when he said the following:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."  Mat 11:28-30

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

Quote from: Jock on December 08, 2013, 10:47:37 AM
The meat we eat is from a local butcher and none of it is sacrificed to anybody but I do thank God that we have meat on our table.

The only meat I won't eat is "Halal" meat because of the brutal way they slaughter the animals. They also pray over it, to Allah.

Apart from that, the Lord doesn't want us hung up on such things. It is what comes out of our mouths that defiles us.

Jock.  :2c:

Now I am not saying don't eat meat. What I will tell you is that the meat we buy at the grocery store has already been sacrificed to the god of money. From the cow farmer all the way to the grocery store that animal has been sacrificed to many gods before it goes into your mouth. I still love a good T-bone.

something else I found to consider regarding the origin of;

      The Mishna and Talmud[Avodah Zara 8 a]

   describes a pagan festival called Saturna which occurs 8 days before winter solstice,

it is followed by 8 days after the solstice with a fetival called Calenda.

   The Talmud ascribes it's origen to Adam[man?] who saw the days getting shorter and became

afraid the world was returning to chaos that was before creation and fasted 8 daysbefore

-when the days began getting longer he celebrated 8 days realizing this was a natural cycle


    The Talmud states that this festival was later turned into a pagan festival.


...this is the first I ever heard of anything like this........

  they brought Him a denarias.....' Give to Caesar what is Caesar's,and to God

what is God's."

QuoteI was thinking about David eating the showbread, he did it because his men were hungry. For me to do such a thing, I would have to look to Christ's heart, not my own, because my heart is full of deadly poison and wickedness.

Shalom

Jock 

I was going to bring up  Davids eating the shewbread too , but went  for the  unlawful things  man cannot speak of because only the Spirit knows  to things of God ... 


Please  remember Gods Spirit is dwelling in you and so is the Lord Jesus Christs , that is what constrains us [union of Love  between a Father and Son ],  according to Pauls   testimony   , its the Love for Christ , so we   do consider everyone and walk in the Spirit/Love   that pleases God

   

Julie, thanks for that kind word. I'll bear it in mind. :gimmefive:

Duwayne, I respect your conviction about this. It's taken our Lord a long time to free me up a bit. My hope is that, whether we do Christmas or not, that we can be close to the Lord and in His blessings.

Shalom

Jock. :banana:

Quote from: Jock on December 08, 2013, 12:25:15 PM
he Pharisees were strict concerning the law, but Jesus told them that if they even glanced twice at a maiden, then they have committed adultery in their hearts. In other words, Jesus made it even tougher for them to show them that they needed a Saviour! After all, what man doesn't notice a good looking woman walking down the street?!

Pretty much. I've seen comments on this forum about how traditions were added to the Law beyond the law itself, which is true. The thing about observing the Law the old way, is that those traditions come from the natural ambiguity of Law when observed from an external viewpoint.

Any lawyer will tell you that laws are general and need interpretation to apply to specific situations. The scripture says to rest on the Sabbath, for example. What does that mean? What is allowable and what is not on the Sabbath? What constitutes resting? Is it ok to heal people on the sabbath? Is that work? The Bible does not provide specific information on that, so they invented traditions to account for as many situations as they could and used their traditions to accuse Jesus.

But once you start looking from the inside out, you don't need the extra rules and traditions. You just look at what fulfills the Law (Love) and go from that, and each person is in charge of their walk. It removes the need to follow what everyone else things you should do. The works which are contrary to love, however, are manifest and easily knowable.

You're right Seth. Love is the key and trumps the law. Being under the law, is bondage but the "easy yoke" that Jesus spoke of is light and frees from that weight.

Jock.

Eat everything that is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake, 26 for the earth is the Lord's, and all that is in it.[m]

Therefore, if food causes my brother to fall, I will never again eat meat, so that I won't cause my brother to fall.