Christmas (again)

[Seth]

Awesome post Marie Glen,

In China, I have heard it said, the only way or time (principally) that folks in China get to hear about Jesus and the gospel is through hearing the why of Christmas and Easter.. not the pagan why, the Christian why.. which took over the holidays..

What this and your Easter comments remind me of is how that God uses what was intended for evil, and turns it around for good. I think about Gehenna and how the Jews in Jeremiah were using the fire to sacrifice their children to false gods, which is an evil thing. But then, Jesus turns that around and uses it as an example of how the disciples can use that in a cleansing manner (ie. cut out your eyes and throw them into the fire of Gehenna to be burned up).

Just as the Jews had sacrificed their children outside the city to false gods, God turned it around and was in Christ sacrificing his willing Son outside the city as well. What they meant for evil, God can use for good.

But as long as we have this OUTSIDE>IN concept of defilement as the followers of the Old Covenant, we could never do that.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  the seven woes are associated with this outward clean mindset/seven plagues

of Babyln and the shiny garment associated with it/strange apparell.  It is strange to God

that any should clothe themselves with theeir own righteousness in the flesh..and not take

the wedding garment offered/free gift of righteousness by spirit provided by His son.

   

[sheila]

now,some may argue that the strange aapparel would be such customs as christmas from the nations

around Israel. but in Psalm 45 the daughter of Tyre comes with a robe. and men of wealth seek her

favour.and in Proverbsshe makes linen sashes and sells them to the merchants she sees thAT

her trading is profitable[parable of talents..note the 'one' talent possesor does not increase

  has not love.......and see's God as harsh...saying He reaps where He does not sow[in effect saying

   God has no right to reap increase of wheat from a feild with tares sown in it.]he uses the

evidence of 'weeds' as the enemies right to possesss..and accuses God of theft.



       

[rosered]

 

Well I have to say this thread has been   ''eye opening '' !! 
Thanks to everyones input !  really  appreciated   , I have been reading it for days even when it was  under   the other title ...  boycott  radio shack ...

never  was going to say anything , but now  ,  my heart was stony  and a bit hardened  , only because I DO NOT KNOW all the facts  on any opinion [judgment ] we hold  dear to our hearts / minds  and yes they can Change !! Thank God   for that !!

  For me [this was and maybe not so much now   an opinion /judment  , I clung too 
we can only see as far as the Lord God is willing to let us see anything   , but everyone sharing what the LIGHT /  KNOWLEGE  of GOD though Jesus Christ  gives us all   , to speak of what we hear in the darkness    from the Spirit of Holy God   , shout it on the rooftops !

I felt   the  ''holidays ''   were of this world and comercialize     for profit    the kings of the earth  exchanging gifts to one another in the sacrifice of Gods Son  to the world   , by Babylon , the false   Church /religion of men ,    the one John the revelator  was so easily    awed  and marveled   over
and was  given an admonishment     from the Angel [messenger ]     why are you so surprised  at her glory in the earth for ?

   and the exploiting the chinese  workers to make the  trinkets  and  dressings  of the  Christmas and Easter    decorations etc    and   man made ''junk'' we are to buy  and give one another on a certain day ....   

  But realizing  ,  after the many posts exchanged    by some here
  I dont really ''worship ''    those things or hold them in high esteem   
these are not the treasures  of /mine or others  heart !
  so thank  you  all for sharing   and caring enough to make some very  valid points !!
  they have helped  greatly  !   and removed a stumbling block  that   needed to be removed

  we all do things for a reason or we  would not do them 
  doing them for the right reason  is the only reason they should be done at all  ... 
    sometimes we dont know why we do what we do , and that makes us question our ''faith ''    what we actually do believe in   ..
   

[Seth]

HI edit: Rosered (sorry, I said Sheila),
Yes, the reasons we do things are so important. Many people quote Old Testament passages without realizing how Christ synthesized those passages to his teaching and to the New Covenant that he brought. This is how he was able to declare all meats clean, when the Law had said some meats were unclean: what comes out of a man is what defiles him.

For example:

Jeremiah 7
17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Well, if gathering wood, and kindling the fire, and kneading dough to break bread was a pagan process, I guess we should avoid those things too, right? Legalism rears its ugly head, when we ignore Christ's synthesis of the Old Covenant to the New, and creates rules like these:

---------

1) It's fine to gather wood, kindle a fire, and make dough for cakes as long as you don't do it in the order above: child, then father, then mother. Make sure to vary the process so as not to follow the pagan ritual.

or,

2) Don't gather wood to bake cakes which require kneading. Only use wood for cakes which require mixing.

or,

3) Don't make or eat ANY cakes which have been cooked in a wood burning stove whatsoever just to cover all bases.

--------

Which of these is the correct way? Which one makes you clean or unclean? These are the kind of traditions that the Jews would engage in when they thought that the external act defiled them, rather than the internal intention, and legalism abounded that way.

But we know all these admonitions are ridiculous because what is really important is that they made cakes "to the queen of heaven."

Without that INTENTION, you can send your child out for wood, then kindle the fire, and let your wife bake the bread because you know you are not honoring a pagan god, even if the actions look the same.

What matters is the conscience according to faith.

[sheila]

in Acts 17;17 Paul took advantage of the altar of the Unknown God to try and reach them.....

  to a gentile he become as a gentile[nations]   he said they were worshipping a God they do

not know......these to whom God remains a mystery.  Roman/Greek influence christians rep

the ram who speaks like a dragon for they do not know God. the goat is the Muslem/Ishmael

counterpart.....and the unbeleiving jewsalong with them make up the three portions of hair

in Ezekiel's ch 5 demonstration.. of the seige of Jerusalem that now is...these are all situated in the

Jerusalem that now is over in

Israel. rep Hagar in bondage..you will find them fighting over the  city...also see Ezekiel eating

the scroll which tasted sweet as honey to his mouth.....

 

         


 

   

[mplsfitter539]

Seth I wasn't aware that gathering wood, kindling a fire, or kneading dough to break bread was, is, or has been an ancient pagan practice. You are really grabbing at straws using that as an example of an ancient pagan tradition. Those were the laws the Jews had added to the laws of Yahweh for honoring the Sabbath which were done away with at the cross. The laws of Yahweh still stand and the added ones are gone. Your argument has become outright ludicrous. 

My parents talk about their freedom in Christ like you do. They believe that freedom means "do as thou wilt" and its perfectly exceptable to Yahweh because they profess to worship His Son by following all of the ancient pagan practices and say they are doing it for Yashua. I am sorry I still don't understand how pagan practices change into worship because of freedom/liberty.

[JulieTang84]

Yes Seth, it is all about honoring Father in thought and action, with the caveat that one's heart is in sync always with the Spirit of love and truth.

If the heart is not inline then every action is pagan.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Seth I wasn't aware that gathering wood, kindling a fire, or kneading dough to break bread was, is, or has been an ancient pagan practice. You are really grabbing at straws using that as an example of an ancient pagan tradition. Those were the laws the Jews had added to the laws of Yahweh for honoring the Sabbath which were done away with at the cross. The laws of Yahweh still stand and the added ones are gone. Your argument has become outright ludicrous. 

The Israelites did engage in pagan worship. God is telling you how they made cakes as offerings to the "queen of heaven." The argument is valid in that the process of baking cakes is not in itself the problem, but doing it to intentionally make offerings to a false god is the problem. The manner by which Christ declared all meats clean is the manner by which we know this, that what proceeds from the heart is what actually defiles. Not realizing that results in all manner of religious legalism, brothers judging and condemning eachother without knowing the hearts as God does.  :thumbdown:

I am sorry I still don't understand how pagan practices change into worship because of freedom/liberty.

The freedom is in knowing that loving your neighbor fulfills the Law. The freedom is in knowing that it is what proceeds from the heart that defiles: the inward defiles the outward NOT vice-versa. Therefore, there is no worship of a pagan god in celebrating Christmas, if one does not even believe in the paganism.

So, because God OWNS all the pine trees, and all the ornaments, and all the water that feeds the tree, we can give thanks to God and not be condemned for what we eat or do that is not contrary to LOVE. Therefore, what is intended for evil, can be turned around for good, just as in Marie Glen's example of Chinese people learning about Christ because of the holidays, the only time they can hear about him. Very simple.

[Seth]

Yes Seth, it is all about honoring Father in thought and action, with the caveat that one's heart is in sync always with the Spirit of love and truth.

If the heart is not inline then every action is pagan.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[jabcat]

mplsfitter, I agree with you that our freedom in Christ shouldn't be an occasion to sin.  Right on.

OTOH to the general discussion, it SEEMS TO ME that some things are clear and obvious - murder, adultery, active homosexuality, stealing, etc., "which those that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God".    Then some things SEEM to be a matter of conscience, where we can reason, present what we believe to be relevant information, and then follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and our conscience in our own lives, while accepting others to do the same.  It may be that we disagree, and even don't fully fellowship in and over some things, still, if one believes on Yashua as the Savior, then accepting each other as brothers and sisters in the Master.  Admittedly, it can be (for me) very difficult to know where the "lines" are sometimes.

Does this apply overall?

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....

Blessings.

[Seth]

Yes, in fact, I think you could have posted the entire chapter. I think the entire chapter of Romans 14 squares it away.

Romans 14
22Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It would be sinful for someone to celebrate Christmas in doubting that he is free to do it. But blessed and happy is the man who does not judge himself in the thing he allows. The connective tissue in the entire chapter 14 is that we do it unto God. That is how we know that Paul is not talking about allowing sexual immorality, and murder, because God is Love, and those things are outside of Love.

But things which ARE done unto God, blessed is the man who does not condemn himself in what he allows. It's pretty clear. LOVE fuflills the Law. That's the guideline. So, celebrating Christmas and eating meat sacrificed to idols is neutral to that end, which is why you can allow it if you wish.

[JulieTang84]

Does this apply overall?

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....

Blessings.

James I really believe Paul addresses this contentious issue perfectly. Thank you


1Cr 10:24
No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

1Cr 10:25, 26
Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

1Cr 10:27
If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.

1Cr 10:28
But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.

1Cr 10:29
I am referring to the other person's conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another's conscience?

1Cr 10:30
If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

1Cr 10:31
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.


As I stated earlier, EVERYTHING must be done for Father for HIS Glory, though Mind, Spirit and Soul.

There is NO LAW against such!!!!!  :friendstu:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Admittedly, it can be (for me) very difficult to know where the "lines" are sometimes.

I think you added while I was replying. So I went back and saw this. To me it used to be difficult, but I think that there is a very simple yardstick to use, that makes it all very simple.

Love fulfills the Law. Love God and love your neighbor. That's it. Just ask yourselves, am I loving God, and loving my neighbor? If so, then your heart is right with God in what you do, and everything you do will fall into place.

[JulieTang84]

Yes, in fact, I think you could have posted the entire chapter. I think the entire chapter of Romans 14 squares it away.

Romans 14
22Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It would be sinful for someone to celebrate Christmas in doubting that he is free to do it. But blessed and happy is the man who does not judge himself in the thing he allows. The connective tissue in the entire chapter 14 is that we do it unto God. That is how we know that Paul is not talking about allowing sexual immorality, and murder, because God is Love, and those things are outside of Love.

But things which ARE done unto God, blessed is the man who does not condemn himself in what he allows. It's pretty clear. LOVE fuflills the Law. That's the guideline. So, celebrating Christmas and eating meat sacrificed to idols is neutral to that end, which is why you can allow it if you wish.

:thumbsup: :iagree:


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

When I started reading where I left off earlier today, I wanted to insert many quotes in this comment, but then as I read on, there were so very many great points I would want to insert as quotes, that I decided not to! but i probably won't be able to fully resist..

I'm glad "eating meat sacrificed to idols" was brought up as that was what i was thinking about while reading..
- - - - -- - - - - -

.."note the 'one' talent possesor does not increase

  has not love.......and see's God as harsh..."

Sheila, I never thought of that.. but it is surely right on! And also especially, "It is strange to God

that any should clothe themselves with theeir own righteousness in the flesh..and not take

the wedding garment offered/free gift of righteousness by spirit provided by His son." ! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Julie, I love what you wrote! (as usual/as i always do:) "If the heart is not inline then every action is pagan."

..It kind of reminded me of how Grace is the Power of God.. and how the scripture says the law dilutes that power

...not that, as you, Mpslitter, and Jabcat, rightly point out, it is not "do as thou wilt".. But it is a strong power within, which results in seldom having to say "today i will not murder" (hate, dislike?) or "today i will not defraud, cheat, etc" for the power progressively working within a born again believer is the same power which rose Jesus from the grave (and also btw, parted the Red Sea, etc, etc.. created the universe in six days).. The whole idea (to God, I believe) is for us to not have the motivations to, well, do anything outside of His will, which is love.. "Love works no ill"

I like Seth's - "Love God and love your neighbor. That's it. Just ask yourselves, am I loving God, and loving my neighbor? If so, then your heart is right with God in what you do, and everything you do will fall into place. " - (I also got out of that - whatever we do or speak, is the motive love? (thanks, Seth)

JulieTang, you are right in how you always say "love! it's Love!"

"God is love."

..all are learning and will have deeply engraved on their hearts.. love. "Writing His law on our" (beating, alive, soft, pliant) "heart". (With his very finger(?) as He wrote "the law" on stone.)

[marie glen]

.... I felt   the  "holidays "   were of this world and comercialize     for profit    the kings of the earth  exchanging gifts to one another in the sacrifice of Gods Son  to the world   , by Babylon...

   ...and the exploiting the chinese  workers to make the  trinkets  and  dressings  of the  Christmas and Easter    decorations etc    and   man made "junk" we are to buy  and give one another on a certain day ....   

Rose, i most certainly can see that!! It's too bad our world has descended into such commercialism! the world filled with billboards, flashing lights! It's the new religion of the day! (Or one of them..?)

I also really liked -

 
But realizing  ,  (snipped for brevity/quote)   I dont really "worship "    those things or hold them in high esteem   
these are not the treasures  of /mine or others  heart !

....
  we all do things for a reason or we  would not do them 
  doing them for the right reason  is the only reason they should be done at all  ...

Again...? Love!..?   :gsmile:

[rosered]

.... I felt   the  "holidays "   were of this world and comercialize     for profit    the kings of the earth  exchanging gifts to one another in the sacrifice of Gods Son  to the world   , by Babylon...

   ...and the exploiting the chinese  workers to make the  trinkets  and  dressings  of the  Christmas and Easter    decorations etc    and   man made "junk" we are to buy  and give one another on a certain day ....   

Rose, i most certainly can see that!! It's too bad our world has descended into such commercialism! the world filled with billboards, flashing lights! It's the new religion of the day! (Or one of them..?)

I also really liked -

 
But realizing  ,  (snipped for brevity/quote)   I dont really "worship "    those things or hold them in high esteem   
these are not the treasures  of /mine or others  heart !

....
  we all do things for a reason or we  would not do them 
  doing them for the right reason  is the only reason they should be done at all  ...

Again...? Love!..?   :gsmile:

Amen sister Marie !!!     Love you ALL!!
  I was thinking when we are walking in the Spirit  we are walking in Love  , and thought of Paul and his   experience     in 2Corinthians  12   and How Gods grace is sufficent   for us

  when we look on our flesh its weak and sinful in nature and Love is hardly  the motive  , we do well to love our own  family and   much less our enemies    those whom   frustrate  us the most

  and thought of his unlawful to speak about   experience  ,in his taste of  the Paradise of God   !!  wow I cannot wait till we  can all   experience   this !!   we will not be   judging anyones  faith in what is allowed   for   we will KNOW   HOW GLORIOUS GODS GRACE   has been  and REALLY IS !!
2 Corinthians 12
New Living Translation (NLT)

Paul's Vision and His Thorn in the Flesh
12 This boasting will do no good, but I must go on.

I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord.


2 I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago.

Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don't know—only God knows.

3 Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know 4 that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.


5 That experience is worth boasting about, but I'm not going to do it.


I will boast only about my weaknesses.



6 If I wanted to boast, I would be no fool in doing so, because I would be telling the truth.



But I won't do it, because I don't want anyone to give me credit beyond what they can see in my life or hear in my message,

7 even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud,


I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

8 Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away.


9 Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness."
So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 10 That's why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


    we can and  do   suffer   for Christs sake ,  just trying to share our  faith and experiences   ,  but can count  it as joy one day     , I hope  soon       :girlheart:   

ps you really added with Seth in the Chinese reciving  Words of Christ      when they hardly have anything but  heavy loads to bear    working  for  little to nothing   , they can hope in Christ  as well ,  praying for them also  such oppression in the flesh  and this world , I do thank God that Jesus kingdom   is NOT of this world !!        we see it though the eye of faith  given by the Lord Himself     

[Graph1159]

One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

[mplsfitter539]

One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

Paul said we should strive for the narrow gate. If the masses are doing something then we need to set ourselves apart from it. Haven't we learned yet that we are a very small group of people?

Seth I just have to say one more thing to you. I felt it was unfair for you to imply that those who don't do x-mas are weak. To insinuate that Christians who practice x mass are stronger than those who don't do it out of respect to Yahweh.
During the Christ's ministry he ate with the pagans. That did not make Him a pagan because He was not celebrating their pagan holidays. Now if you have any examples other than that can you show me where the Christ attended any pagan festivals. This I believe would be important to include in the Gospels if it had taken place. Yahshua is the pattern that we are to strive to be like.
 
Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

DuWayne

[marie glen]

..i'm thinking the narrow gate is faith alone.. Jesus on the his throne (in our hearts) alone.. to put anything there with Him, whether, a christ-mas tree, shopping, the law.. anything on that throne / mixed with grace is an idol.

I've often thought to mix law/my effort / my 'goodness' (tongue in cheek) in order to have God's approval, is to put myself on that throne with Jesus, making of myself an idol..

decorating a tree is not the evil.. shopping is not the evil.. but bowing down to the tree, yes.. or decorating it in the honor of another so called (imaginery) god, yes (an epiphany of ignorance!)

God alone (surely?) owns all trees.. all lights

the word says Jesus will judge "the reigns" / the motives and intents..
                           :girlheart:

[Graph1159]

Hi DuWayne,
I think that the Scriptures you've quoted about being separate from unbelievers and avoiding their ways of worship, are referring to acts of sin done as worship to their gods (such as sacrificing their children and temple prostitution). These acts are inherently evil. There is nothing that we can do to justify them and make them acceptable to God. So, God tells us to stay away from them because nothing good comes of them.

I respect your conviction, and I am not trying to change your personal stance. But for me to personally decide that Christmas is immoral, I would need to see Scriptures which show that neutral activities become permanently pagan if they originated in pagan rituals. If you see such passages let me know and I will take a look.

Samuel

[marie glen]

One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

:idea2: :thumbsup:

Haven't we learned yet that we are a very small group of people?

just a thought, Paul said not to separate ourselves from the people of the world, but from a brother or sister living a sinful lifestyle.. (not including all of us with our flaws, but a sin full life style)

Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

DuWayne

..again.. sin full lifestyle.. as a cheat, thief, adulterer, chaser of skirts, etc.. not if we wash our hands before meals..

Romans 14 seems to me, to be saying in all secondary matters (including eating meat that was sacrificed to an idol :Chinscratch: ) - like with the original saturday sabbath -  it's ok for one to observe it even tho it's part of the Old Testament requirements

..which requirements came after "the promise" spoken to Abraham - for one is observing it "unto God", but also is ok for one to "esteem all days alike" - now there's a drove of people who "esteem all days alike"

"for the one who esteems all days alike" (and, or every day having sabbath time? which seems to be common also) is also doing so "unto God" (I myself would think of Saturday Sabbath as preferable for me, if I could only manage to have a day totally free of work that is!! but I see nothing wrong with honoring the Lord on Sunday, even if it's named sun-day after the so called (imaginary) 'sun god' - satur-day, too is named after the notorious saturnalia.. Both days remain belonging to the creator, surely?

..it seems to me the gist of it, and what Sheila was first posting is, we are not to judge one another in these things, but to "let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind"

the whole of Romans 14 (and also Colossians 2:16?) I think of Christianity taking over these holidays, days the pagans stole from God, as part of that triumphant ride of Christ where he openly made a show of triumphing over principalities and powers

Perfectly ok and not inferior to not observe Christ-mas, as it is done in honor of one's God.. until they start to make a commandment for others out of it.. we have one commandment.. Love God totally, the 2nd will be fulfilled by our doing the 1st.. this is easy, this burden is light, and we should not throw any stumbling blocks (other commandments) in the path of any others.. letting their walk be easy and the burden light.. (albeit our walk is not without of course persecutions, weaknesses, etc) But our trying to please God is thru believing and receiving.. and thus being born again and enabled to love God, our one rule and commandment. Love draws, rules scatter (imo:)

God bless!! :girlheart:

[Seth]

Seth I just have to say one more thing to you. I felt it was unfair for you to imply that those who don't do x-mas are weak. To insinuate that Christians who practice x mass are stronger than those who don't do it out of respect to Yahweh.
During the Christ's ministry he ate with the pagans. That did not make Him a pagan because He was not celebrating their pagan holidays. Now if you have any examples other than that can you show me where the Christ attended any pagan festivals. This I believe would be important to include in the Gospels if it had taken place. Yahshua is the pattern that we are to strive to be like.

A weak conscience does not make for a weak person. That is not what Apostle Paul meant with his use of the term. We are told not to lead a brother into that which he believes is harmful, so I would never encourage anyone to celebrate Christmas if they think it will displease God.

Anyway, attending pagan festivals would be perfectly fine. In 1 Cor 8:10, paul says we can even be "dining in an idol's temple". So it's not even just the meat. You can actually go and sit in the temple of a false god, eat the meal with the pagan, and not have a harmed conscience. I think it's straining at a gnat to say, "yes you can sit in the temple with them, and eat with them, but don't go to their festival." Brother, please!

The only caveat Paul provides is to take care in not offending the consciences of others who don't realize such freedom.

It simply depends on why you are there. It was a pagan practice to eat meat sacrificed to idols. A Christian may partake of the same only if his participation does not harm another, including not validating the religion itself.

For example, the Christian would not himself sacrifice meat to an idol because he knows the idol is nothing, and believes in God instead. BUT, he may eat the meat because the meat is not itself tainted by the practice. Nothing is unclean OF ITSELF. Knowing what ACTUALLY defiles a man is a guideline to what is allowed and what is not.

Celebrating Christmas does not validate pagan beliefs, nor does it endorse them. Because it is neutral to loving God and loving fellow man, there is no harm in having Christmas trees or stockings or coming together for a meal, if the faith is not harmed by it, which is is not.

[Seth]

One idea that came to mind - What if the light bulb, instead of being invented by Thomas Eddison, was originally invented for use in pagan ceremonies. Would use of lightbulbs be eternally, universally sinful because pagans got hold of it first?

I'm not being sarcastic here. For those of you who are opposed to Christmas, I would honestly like to hear your reasoning on this.

Samuel

Yes, also consider this hypothetical situation.

Suppose an investigator is studying the scene of the crime. The victim was bowing to a false god. The investigator wishing to recreate the scene retraces the victims steps, even getting into the crouching position of the victim.

Is he worshipping a false god? No, of course not. His intention has nothing to do with that, so he has not defiled himself.