Christmas (again)

[Seth]

Seth said: Does eating pork, or touching a dead hawk, or having a Christmas tree in your house and opening presents on the 25th have the power to defile your mind? IF SO, don't do it. IF NOT, you're fine

That is spot on. In my past affiliations I have had men lay a burden of guilt concerning christmas, easter and the like. Are we to go back to living the law? The days of the week, months of the years, names of planets, touching a cadaver, all pagan!

My wife and I have had years of not doing Christmas (I don't think we scored any points with God) especially if we laid a weight on our brothers. Oh how spiritual we were!

Let each man be persuaded in his own mind and heart. I can say that where love is found, liberty is found.

Shalom

Jock.   :banana:

:iagree:

[mplsfitter539]

But still the ancient Jews were warned not to be part of paganism. God hated it; even when the Jews thought it was ok and thought they (still) worshipped God.

This is true. He also said, don't eat pork. You have to see that something happened between the Old and New covenants that CHANGED the way we look at things.

Romans 14
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Paul had to be CONVINCED that nothing is unclean OF ITSELF. This is because he was so used to thinking externally, but the New Covenant is all about faith. Faith is internal. Therefore niether pork or Christmas trees are unclean OF THEMSELVES. Rather, it's what is happening with your faith that counts, which leads me to the next point:

What's next? Sacrifice swine on the Brazen Altar because we truly believe God would like some pork chops?

Please note the bolded parts. THAT is the issue. What do you BELIEVE? You can kill a pig on a brazen altar, it will not hurt you. But are you doing it BECAUSE you BELIEVE that God wants pork chops, or that Ba'al desires a sacrifice? Or are you doing it because YOU are hungry, not because you think the altar is anything but a butchering table and that the pig is nothing but ordinary meat.

WHY is the issue under the New Covenant because it is all a matter of faith. Not even circumcision is evil in itself. But WHY are you doing it is the real issue.

This is why Paul connects everything to faith and tells each person to make their own choice about it.

But is the heart of a xmas celebrator pure? Many really think it's an all Christian celebration of Christ's birth. Although wrong their hearts may be pure.

You do know xmas is pagan and you celebrate it. Is your heart really pure? Or are you just making up excuses to enjoy a pagan feast?

Simply because something has pagan roots does not make it evil OF ITSELF. The evil is in BELIEVING in paganism. That is why meat sacrificed to idols is ok to eat. If my heart is pure or not is a matter of my own faith. That's something to be examined individually.

1 Cor 13:10
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

That's the problem with Judaizing is that it does not allow for self examination and self decision. It insists on blanket rules like the Old Covenant, because the Law is NOT of faith. You follow rules without need to examine yourselves and determine what is harmful or not to your walk.

It's not up to WW to determine whether my heart is pure or not, that is the point.

Seth what changed about eating pork, crabs, oysters, etc............ they are still bottom feeders and are the most putrid of all foods? You are what you eat and pigs eat crap so when you eat a pig you are ingesting the very same things that the pig eats. Pigs also are cannibals and eat their own feces. All ocean life poops onto the ocean floor where crabs, lobsters, shell fish, and other bottom feeders eat all that poop so if you enjoy eating recycled poop go ahead. You are correct that it is not a sin to eat these filthy animals but its still not healthy at all. Yahweh's laws were put in place to spare us the consequences of our own stupidity but we know best right? Eat what you like and do as thou wilt but for me I will follow Yahweh's law's because they are all profitable. 

[Seth]

Seth what changed about eating pork, crabs, oysters, etc............ they are still bottom feeders and are the most putrid of all foods? You are what you eat and pigs eat crap so when you eat a pig you are ingesting the very same things that the pig eats. Pigs also are cannibals and eat their own feces. All ocean life poops onto the ocean floor where crabs, lobsters, shell fish, and other bottom feeds eat all that poop so if you enjoy eating recycled poop go ahead. You are correct that it is not a sin to eat these filthy animals but its still not healthy at all. Yahweh's laws were put in place to spare us the consequences of our own stupidity but we know best right? Eat what you like and do as thou wilt but for me I will follow Yahweh's law's because they are all profitable.

Health had nothing to do with those Laws. You can die from eating a cow just as you can from a crab. Those Laws caused people to believe that the meat was unclean OF ITSELF, and nothing is unclean of itself. We have ONE yardstick to know whether we should abstain from something or not, and it's SO easy to do:

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness, "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Those who understand that scripture know that NOTHING is unclean of itself, that the thing to be aware of is whether or not what we do causes us to fall away from LOVE. If it doesn't cause that problem, then it's not unclean. Does eating pork cause anyone not to "love your neighbor as yourself?" No? Then it will do no harm to your FAITH.

Those with a strong conscience understand this. Those whose consciences are weaker are still growing into it, and for them I would say, don't have a Christmas tree if it causes you guilt and fear, or if it derails a brother.

[sheila]

it is not what enters a man's mouth that defiles him,do you not know that whatever enters a

man's mouth passes through the intestines into the sewer.  It is what enter a man's heart

that defiles him.

   and mp I don't care what you eat..when it passes through your intestines it becomes foul and

belongs in the sewer...  is our god our belly now?  or didd your body/flesh 'sanctify' it?

   regardless...I have no desire to eat my bread cooked over human dung..

   last time I checked  vegetatbles and fruits fed on dung...and we eat them even being

vegetarian.

    I have a grandson..who refused to eat corn..cz it growed in the dirt!

lol! but he loved frenchfries!  You should have seen the look on his face when I told

him how potatoes grow.
 

   

[Seth]

 :laughing7:

It all goes back to why Jesus died. Not to keep us under the Law, but so that the righteousness OF the Law be fulfilled in us.

[mplsfitter539]

it is not what enters a man's mouth that defiles him,do you not know that whatever enters a

man's mouth passes through the intestines into the sewer.  It is what enter a man's heart

that defiles him.

   and mp I don't care what you eat..when it passes through your intestines it becomes foul and

belongs in the sewer...  is our god our belly now?  or didd your body/flesh 'sanctify' it?

   regardless...I have no desire to eat my bread cooked over human dung..

   last time I checked  vegetatbles and fruits fed on dung...and we eat them even being

vegetarian.

    I have a grandson..who refused to eat corn..cz it growed in the dirt!

lol! but he loved frenchfries!  You should have seen the look on his face when I told

him how potatoes grow.
 

Plants don't eat poop they gather only the nutrients in the poop. How is a pig different from a rat, bat, or cat? According to what I am reading here on this thread all animals are good for food. Most people "Christian" or not refuse to eat many animals because they are disgusting but somehow the pig has become accepted, why? What makes a pig less disgusting than eating garbage, the pig eats the garbage and you want to eat him so whats up? If you like to eat garbage I have a huge pile of it and your invited to my house to eat it, I will even throw in a bib so you don't get anything nasty on your shirt.

:laughing7:

It all goes back to why Jesus died. Not to keep us under the Law, but so that the righteousness OF the Law be fulfilled in us.

So when Yahshua died He made all disgusting things/animals clean to eat no matter what science says about the toxins contained in their diet? Please help me understand how the pig is now able to change a diet of pure filth into perfectly healthy food. I am just trying to understand your philosophy.

[Seth]

So when Yahshua died He made all disgusting things/animals clean to eat no matter what science says about the toxins contained in their diet? Please help me understand how the pig is now able to change a diet of pure filth into perfectly healthy food. I am just trying to understand your philosophy

You can understand my philosophy by reading what I had just said. Those laws didn't have to do with health in the first place, and are not binding for today. You can die from eating a cow as much as a pig. What's one of the first things a doctor says to old men with high cholesterol? No more red meat!

Those who love their neighbors have fulfilled the law, whether they eat red meat, or pork, or chicken or whatever. When you understand that, you will know my philosophy.

[Seth]

What changed between the Old and New covenants is the need for self examination. That is not required when you follow a blanket ordinance to abstain from Christmas trees or eating pig. When you follow the blanket ordinance you don't have to follow faith to see whether or not you are loving your neighbor as yourself.

blanket ordinance vs faith walk under the guidance of love and the Spirit

That's the change between the Old and New covenants. The Law dealt with things from the outside in, so that it was weak through the flesh. The Spirit deals with things from the inside out so that it strong in putting away sin. The sin is in internal problem. It starts internally and the Spirit cleanses it so that you can walk in love for your neighbor.

That is how you analyze what you can do, and from what you should abstain.

[sheila]

Letter of Aristeas  ch 6    v2 for I suppose that most people feel a curiosity with regards

to some of the enactments of the law,especially those about meats and drinks and

animals recognized as unclean.

when we asked why,since there is but one for of creation,some animals are regarded as unclean

for eating,and others unclean even to the touch[for though the law is scrupulous on

most points,it is specially scrupulous on such matters as these] he began his reply as follows;

v4  'You observe,he says what affect our modes of life and our associations have on u;

by associating with the bad,men catch their depravities and become miserable throughout their

lives; but if they live with the wise and prudent,they find the means of escaping from

ignorance and amending their lives..............

.....v16  now our lawgiver being a wise man and specially endowed  by God to understand

all things..took a comprhehensive veiw of each particular detail......AND FENCED US ROUND

WITH IMPREGNABLE RAMPARTS AND WLLS OF IRON,that we might not mingle at all with

any of the other nations[wall seperating jew from gentile]

   v 25 for you must not fall into the degrading idea,that it was out of regard to ice an

weasel's and other uch things that Moses drew up his laws with such exceeding care.

      all these odinances were made for the sake of righteousness to aid the quest for virtue

   and the perfecting of character.

   for all the birds that we use are tame and  distinquished by their cleanliness,feeding

on various kinds of grain and pulse,such as for instance pigeons,turtle-doves,locusts

patridges geese also and all other birds of this class.v 28 but the birds which are forbidden

  you will find to be wild and carnivarous,tyrannizing over the others by the strength

which they possess,and cruelly obtaining food by preying of the tame birds enumerated above.

   And not only so,but they seize lambs and kids, and injure human beings,too,whether

dead or alive, AND SO BY NAMING THEM UNCLEAN HE GAVE A SIGN BY MEANS OF THEM

  THAT THOSE FOR WHOM THIS LEGLISATION WAS ORDAINED,MUST PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS

  IN THEIR HEARTS AND NOT TYRANNIZE OVER ANYONE IN RELIANCE UPON THEIR OWN

  STRENGTH NOR ROB THEM OF ANYTHING,BUT STEER THEIR COURSE OF LIFE IN ACCORDANCE

  WITH JUSTICE,JUST AS THE TAME BIRDS[harmless as doves].................

   v 32   WHEREFORE ALL THE RULES WHICH HE HAS LAID DOWN WITH TO REGARD AS TO WHAT

IS PERMITTED IN THE CSE OF THESE BIRDS AND OTHER ANIMALS,HE HAS ENACTED WITH

THE OBJECT OF TEACHING US A MORAL LESSON>..........lots more please read...

...v 40  for all animals which are cloven footed and chew the cud, represent to the initiated

  memory. For the act of chewing the cud is nothing else than the reminiscence of life

and existence[Thou shalt surely remember the Lord].........lots more........

    v 53 in the case of the wild animals,too the same principle ay be discovered[think wild beast

  in Revelations].  For the character of the weasel and of mice and such animals are

destructive.  Mice defile and damage everything,not only for their own food,but even to

the extent F RENDERING ABSOLUTELY USELESS TO MAN WHATEVER IT FALLS IN THEIR

WAY TO DAMAGE.............


........v 64   and so,concerning meats and things unclean,creeping things and wild beasts

  THE WHOLE SYSTEM AIMS AT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND RIGHTEOUS RELATIONSHIPS

BETWEEN MAN AND MAN>

 

[Seth]

Here is how you can tell that the Laws were not about health:

Matthew 15
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" (no kidding, they believed the opposite) 13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."
15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. (watch closely) 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person;

(keep watching...)

but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them."

But wait a minute. If you eat with unwashed hands, what about bacteria?!!!!! How can Jesus say that eating with unwashed hands does not defile when clearly unwashed hands could contain all manner of deseases?

Health and hygiene has nothing to do with what God says is clean or unclean. It wasn't about health. It was about LOVE. The actions which are disobedient to LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR are the ones you ought to avoid. Celebrating a holiday with vaguely pagan influences has no affect on your walk unless you BELIEVE in the paganism.

[sheila]

there you have it..what the dietary laws were about.  take the hog for instance..it uproots

and renders sterile/void the soil...fit for weeds if anything.  taking all for itself and leaving

nothing left to others for any fit use[greed]

   these are those who purify themselves in the gardens..while all awhile the broth of swine

is in their vessel,saying 'get away,get away! do not touch! I am too holy for you!"

  the broth of the wine in their vessel..is an unclean spirit in them as to how they look

on their fellow man.....

  the law taught these things through natural creation...unclean/clean animals.....

  Jesus taught spiritual things through the spirit..unclean spirits/devils..holy pure spirit etc.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[dajomaco]

You do know xmas is pagan and you celebrate it. Is your heart really pure? Or are you just making up excuses to enjoy a pagan feast?

Trying to establish the condition of some ones heart based on information,
ie) he has Christmas tree, is a fools game.

Saying you are doing it because you are concerned about the purity,
of some one else's heart.

Is an excuse to judge our brother and add  an unnecessary burden   

[mplsfitter539]

First off I wasn't the one that choose to make this a thread about clean and unclean foods. The other guy brought it up. Now he is saying that Yahweh could not have used pig for two or more purposes. How about in His omniscient mind he saw a way to train His people to obey for the sake of obeying and used the pig. The pig was a great choice for Yahweh considering He could have used the dove. Here are only a few of the reasons the pig was such a great choice. This article was too long to post the whole thing here. http://www.planetization.org/hygiene.htm

The pig or swine is a very popular food item with most Christians. Yet, Christians are unaware that the God they profess to believe in had condemned the eating of swine's flesh. The condemnation based on some very sound biological principles. Here are some facts on pork that prove it to be a very unhealthy food to eat:

A pig is a real garbage gut. It will eat anything including urine, excrement, dirt, decaying animal flesh, maggots, or decaying vegetables. They will even eat the cancerous growths off other pigs or animals.

The meat and fat of a pig absorbs toxins like a sponge. Their meat can be 30 times more toxic than beef or venison.

When eating beef or venison, it takes 8 to 9 hours to digest the meat so what little toxins are in the meat are slowly put into our system and can be filtered by the liver. However, when pork is eaten, it takes only 4 hours to digest the meat. We thus get a much higher level of toxins within a shorter time.

Unlike other mammals, a pig does not sweat or perspire. Perspiration is a means of removing toxins from the body. Since a pig does not sweat, the toxins remain within its body and in the meat.

Pigs and swine are so poisonous that you can hardly kill them with strychnine or other poisons. Farmers often pen up pigs within a rattlesnake nest because the pigs will eat the snakes, and if bitten the venom will not harm them.

[Seth]

I brought up eating meat sacrificed to idols to demonstrate WHY that meat is not unclean of itself.

First off I wasn't the one that choose to make this a thread about clean and unclean foods. The other guy brought it up. Now he is saying that Yahweh could not have used pig for two or more purposes. How about in His omniscient mind he saw a way to train His people to obey for the sake of obeying and used the pig.

Obeying for the sake of obeying is not what the New Covenant is about. Obeying for the sake of LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR is what the New Covenant is about. The whole covenant with Christ hinges on that point. It's incredibly simple in that way.

That is how you know what is allowed and what is defiled. Everything Jesus listed in Matthew 15 ("evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.") have to do with LOVE or lacking love.

Christmas trees, opening presents, meat sacrificed to idols, pork, festivals, washing hands etc etc etc, you know those things are allowable when they DO NOT intersect with loving your neighbor...

[mplsfitter539]

Alright I will agree with most of your last statement. But I would still like to address the issue of how everything became clean to eat. I can post the rest of the article here but if you are not already convinced that pigs are filthy and eating their meat is like a game of Russian roulette. I suppose though its worth the risk if you really have a hankering for a mouth full of yummy toxins and vile, putrid, and disgusting flesh. 

[Seth]

Alright I will agree with most of your last statement. But I would still like to address the issue of how everything became clean to eat. I can post the rest of the article here but if you are not already convinced that pigs are filthy and eating their meat is like a game of Russian roulette. I suppose though its worth the risk if you really have a hankering for a mouth full of yummy toxins and vile, putrid, and disgusting flesh.

I think it's a good idea to wash your hands before dinner because of all the reasons you just described, to wash away the dirt so that you don't get sick. However, that has nothing to do with what is defiled before God. So I am sure eating pig is not a great idea, if for no other reason for the fat and cholesterol, but again, that has nothing to do with whether eating is a matter of disobedience to God.

I take your recommendation to avoid pig as a matter of health concern, and no doubt from a real spirit of concern. But I don't take it as a matter of covenant relationship (obedience/disobedience).

Once the matter strays away from health, and gets into obedience/disobedience is where guilt, fear, condemnation and judging eachother begin to surface and it becomes a religious legalism issue. That is where I find strong disagreement.

[eaglesway]

Alright I will agree with most of your last statement. But I would still like to address the issue of how everything became clean to eat. I can post the rest of the article here but if you are not already convinced that pigs are filthy and eating their meat is like a game of Russian roulette. I suppose though its worth the risk if you really have a hankering for a mouth full of yummy toxins and vile, putrid, and disgusting flesh.

I think it's a good idea to wash your hands before dinner because of all the reasons you just described, to wash away the dirt so that you don't get sick. However, that has nothing to do with what is defiled before God. So I am sure eating pig is not a great idea, if for no other reason for the fat and cholesterol, but again, that has nothing to do with whether eating is a matter of disobedience to God.

I take your recommendation to avoid pig as a matter of health concern, and no doubt from a real spirit of concern. But I don't take it as a matter of covenant relationship (obedience/disobedience).

Once the matter strays away from health, and gets into obedience/disobedience is where guilt, fear, condemnation and judging eachother begin to surface and it becomes a religious legalism issue. That is where I find strong disagreement.

This is an excellent explanation, imo.

[Graph1159]

Without starting a debate about the meaning of water baptism, I think we could all agree that being immersed in water has no spiritual significance if it is not done in a Christian context with an understanding of what Christ has done on one's behalf. So, if a Christian ritual does nothing by itself, I don't know why we need to worry about Christmas rituals being a spiritual detriment because of their "roots." Nothing about Christmas trees, giving gifts, outdoor lights, etc. strikes me as pagan in nature. I think what matters is how we symbolically interpret them. They mean nothing unless we attach a meaning. Similar to how immersion in water, if not done in a Christian context and understanding, means nothing.

Samuel

[mplsfitter539]

Christ said, "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9). Christmas is not a command of God—it is a tradition of men. Christ continued, "Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition" (Mark 7:9). Every year, throughout the world, on December 25th, hundreds of millions do just that!

The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. You may want to consider your tradition as your very own re-enactment of ancient Babylonian worship. This is what you have learned from the Babylonians, how they worship their gods.

Deut 12                                                                                                                                                                                                       30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

[Seth]

Christ said, "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9). Christmas is not a command of God—it is a tradition of men. Christ continued, "Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition" (Mark 7:9). Every year, throughout the world, on December 25th, hundreds of millions do just that!

The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. You may want to consider your tradition as your very own re-enactment of ancient Babylonian worship. This is what you have learned from the Babylonians, how they worship their gods.

Deut 12                                                                                                                                                                                                       30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

:faint:

Good grief man. Nobody is worshipping false gods by having a Christmas tree in their house. Nobody can worship something THEY DON'T BELIEVE!  :doh:

You can post a million of those scriptures. They all say to be careful to avoid worshipping false gods. An idol itself is nothing in the world. The only God that exists is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[Seth]

More info on the Mark 7 verse

Mark 7
9 And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Nullifying the word of God means to not love your neighbor as yourself. Their traditions were built around taking money from the people in the name of God, and this greed is what caused the common folk to not have enough money to honor their mothers and fathers.

This greed is at the heart which had no care for the mothers and fathers who could not receive anything because it had been taken away, causing the commandment to "honor your mother and father" to be nullified. Then he finishes thus:

Mark 7
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

20 He went on: "What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person."

Worshipping false gods comes from within a man, not from without a man.

[Jock]

I'll bet you that Nelson Mandella will be more of an idol than santa claus or frosty this Christmas. The towns and cities we live in, are full of statues of once famous people. I have nothing against these people but I'm not bowing down to their image or dancing around Christmas trees, naked, and chanting tribal laments.

Some believers do Christmas, some don't. The Lord is concerned with the heart, no matter what the idol might be. These statues of cold stone and wood don't have an opinion.

Shalom

Jock. :dontknow:

[Seth]

Amen, Jock

[marie glen]

I have posted twice already because this is a passionate topic for me, because I believe the ordinances of men forced upon others leads to unhappiness, unnecessary self denial, guilt and fear. I will simply provide what I think the difference is between messages:

Apostle Paul: Don't do anything that harms your faith.

Judiazers: Don't do anything vaguely connected to paganism because paganism is bad.

The missing link in the Judiazer's message is: FAITH. Judaizers have no concern about faith and do not preach from that perspective at all. They insist that the act itself, or the distant history of the act, is the problem and not preservation of faith, and the walk according to the Spirit.

Does it harm your faith, or your brother's faith? That is the real question.

That is something that everyone needs to examine for themselves and NOT live by somebody else's ordinances, because those ordinances are determined by their own consciences. What they might deny themselves may have no impact on your faith.

2 Corinthians 24
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Too many Christians are allowing other Christians to have dominion over their faith through their legalism.

hi! I've read this thread thus far.. Seth, you've presented your points very excellently!!

And Sheila and Julie Tang too!

Of course, I would have to say a strip club is a far cry from celebrating a holiday, even Christmas and Easter, with your family and loved ones.. and "the heart is very deceptive". Jesus of course would not be affected by the lust of the flesh.. (I'm not saying no one would or could ever be called to enter those places or that orbit. I do think one could ignore the dancing, much like when I'm in a crowd i will often find myself politely ignoring most folks busy with whatever they are busy with, like at an airport, everyone waiting around. It seems to usually be called for. To me anyway. I.e I am a people watcher, and enjoy it, but I do so without being noticed doing so. Maybe it's just me who doesn't like to be watched at the airport or what not! :laughing7: Altho! I would strongly caution most folks against entering strip clubs, thatt is to say, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do so! "The heart is desperately wicked and deceptive"! jes sayin, just in case..)

In China, I have heard it said, the only way or time (principally) that folks in China get to hear about Jesus and the gospel is through hearing the why of Christmas and Easter.. not the pagan why, the Christian why.. which took over the holidays..

Now I'm not eager to give the holidays back to the pagans..

Also, who owns all days? Were December 25 and the moveable feast of Easter, days which did not originally (and always) belong to our heavenly Father?

As far as I'm concerned we simply took those days back. I personally enjoy the lights on the Christmas tree.. I turn them on early in the morning during my morning quiet time and they put me in mind of stained glass windows.. I find them worship inspiring (not that other things aren't also).

"God is light" no one else.. Not even Saturnalia, who was cast off 'his' throne by Jesus' victorious ride of overcoming all principalities and powers he openly triumphed over.. given the chance, the opposer would resurrect those fallen powers and put them back on the thrones of certain days. I'm happy to keep them covered with the story of Jesus.. Which we also get these added opportunities to tell the story of Jesus and the why..

Our prayer at Easter is the only witness I get to give to certain devout atheists in my family.. Unless i want to be obnoxious and bring up something they have no interest in hearing or discussing.. my one line (when or if I'm asked to say the grace) of thanking Jesus for rescuing aLL from death, they put up with, and I consider it seed planted in their heart and mind..

But (and) like Sheila said, judge nothing before its time.. and Romans 14 says "one esteems all days alike" and "another doesn't".. and how each one of them is doing as they deem proper and they each do so "in honor of God".
And to, "Let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind.." :smile: