If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?

[Robert Sparks]

There are several different views about what happens at a believers death- among UR believers as with others. My personal opinion is that everyone awakens at the judgment throne of Christ. Overcomers at the first resurrection. Everyone else at the second resurrection/Great White Throne judgment. As to whether they sleep or cease to exist inbetween as time passes- I do not want to get into my opinion on that- it always engenders an unnecessary debate over something that is not all that clear in the first place.

As to the age of accountability, I think it varies, depending on many factors such as the environment in which a child is raised, the rate at which a person matures. IMO by adolescence (13-17) most people are accountable to God for their attitudes and actions.

On this web-site, we all agree that the consummation of God's plan is the reconciliation and restoration of all. We have some lively disagreements on some other aspects of theology :o)

Jesus knows his sheep. We are awoken and translated into new bodies if dead or translated if alive at his coming.
The rest don't wake until the Judgment. Christ's sheep don't get Judged. We get gifts according to our works while works alone can't save us. Because of this timeline it seems that life goes on after Christ returns for 1000 years on earth where the remaining goats get schooled by Christ and his people. Revelation is tough to pin down but that's how I read it.

[eaglesway]

Revelation is tough to pin down :o)

[anna274]

Revelation is tough to pin down :o)

Maybe reading TAS' booklet The Unveiling of Jesus Christ will give you some "aid" in pinning down --      :)

I'll be off the internet for about six weeks... but decided to do a final read before my internet services are put on hold beginning tomorrow Friday, Oct 25...

I've been enjoying a small booklet (29 pages) THE UNVEILING OF JESUS CHRIST by T. Austin-Sparks who believes that "the book is the revelation of final restoration and recovery in Christ Jesus"  ....  "I am alive for evermore."   The Life of the Ages.  Life Triumphant; Life Immortal!    TAS maintains because of the conditions of the time when revelation was given to John, much of the book of necessity had to be symbolic...        and so much more.  The booklet can be read online at

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/unveiling_of_jesus_christ_the.html

I'm not so much looking for a discussion on this booklet ... it challenged me to do even more study on the comparison of Deut/recap of first five books of OT (Law) with Revelation/recap of first five books of NT (grace and truth) and so I offer this booklet as a possible different perspective on the Book of Revelation. 

[eaglesway]

Revelation is an oracle. A living word, quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword. First we see Jesus, eyes flaming fire, two-edged sword coming out of His mouth, stars in His hands and walking among the Lampstands. Many mysteries all finding their resolution in the revelation of the Logos, the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation(express image, icon) of His nature". Everything else flows from and returns to that revelation of Jesus....."for from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever".

And no one can pin down the mind of the Lord, but these verses really encourage me

I love Revelations 5:13, The Goal.... And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages.


I love Revelations 21:5, The Guarantee....And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he says to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.

I love Revelations 22:17, The Gift.... The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.

[erwan]

MAYBE: unbelievers will be destroyed.Temporary destroyed
they will Be destroyed after the judgment, after the last sins of humankind , it is a sign:it's the sign of having no glory in the eons, the NATURE of the eons is absence of glory

believers(all which believed and only them)  will not be destroyed after the last sins of humanity: it's the sign that they are heirs of the glory of eons, they are heirs of the glory that christ got at the cross , they have an atome or more of glory in the eons: eons NATURE glory

why not ?

[Seth]

I think definitely the house of God are heirs to Christ's glory. And I do believe that unbelievers are to be destroyed, but I don't think physically so. Just as Jesus drank from a cup of man's wrath upon his flesh, he handed that cup to his disciples and they drank. And the world will drink of the full measure of God's wrath. The act of drinking signifies the actual target of God's wrath: not our outer flesh, but the flesh that resides within us. God is attacking the carnal mind, to bring it into a state of smoking rubble and thereby save us from it.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (aionios zoe - the life of the age). 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned (krino - judged) already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation (krisis - judgment), (he is about to explain it to us in clear language) that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jesus Christ IS the Life. He IS the bread of life. Those who do not believe are already judged, and THIS is the judgment: "that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

This....is...the...judgment (krisis): Men not coming to the light, hating the light, with evil works. The light, the WORD exposes it. The term "krisis" is the same word Jesus used to say to the Jews: "How will you escape the judgment (krisis) of Gehenna?" And James explains to us that Gehenna is the fire of our evil works. The TONGUE is a fire a world of iniquity which steers the ship into a furnace.

Men hating the light, doing evil: that IS the "krisis" (that is where we get the word "crisis") of Gehenna. It is not a physical destruction. It is a Prodigal Son, spiritual destruction so that they may find their cities burned and fall upon their knees for a savior to find strength him alone.

[Seth]

This is why we can speak in such plain, clear language as to what the judgment of the world is, and the Eternal Torment crowd WILL NOT accept it. Because they love their doctrines. They don't want their works to be rebuked, so they would rather stay in the darkness than come into the light...

That is why some of them actually do believe it, but will not come out and say it. They don't want everyone to see the nakedness in their works.

[JulieTang84]

If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?

Father Instructed:
   
Deu 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
   
Rom 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Let us be honest, who would willingly choose to be blind?

Jesus told us:

Jhn 9:41
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

The $69 question. Who has Spiritual eyes enough even now? We see but a glimmer of what is to come.

Luk 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

It is not about how much one cannot hear or see; nor is it about how much can be seen and heard, but the condition of ones heart. Of how bright our spiritual light is shining.

Paul said:
   
Eph 2:8, 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

There is NOTHING we have regarding Spiritual Understanding that is not a GIFT  :HeartThrob: from Father. Like many gifts, they are not fully cherished because what possibly could we ever do to justify such a gift. Are we any "better" than any of those spiritually blinded by Father? No we are not, in fact, should we not be first in line to bare the punishment (whatever it is) on any who were deaf and blind right to the end?

Are we really ahead of anyone? Did Jesus put himself a head of the lowest person?
   
Mar 9:35
Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all."

Mar 10:31
But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Luk 13:30
Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

In whose eyes are the last, first and the first last. It makes a huge difference, if one look through Fathers eyes.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Julie:  :dsunny:

[Seth]

And I think the point Jesus is making is about the condition of those who don't believe. It's not so much what happens to the unbeliever AT death, but that the unbeliever IS dead. "Let the dead bury the dead, but you go and proclaim the Kingdom of God."

[JulieTang84]

And I think the point Jesus is making is about the condition of those who don't believe. It's not so much what happens to the unbeliever AT death, but that the unbeliever IS dead. "Let the dead bury the dead, but you go and proclaim the Kingdom of God."

The light of truth and love  :HeartThrob: is life. A light that burns darkness is light in search of a spark.

Christianity as a whole will learn what the light of truth really is and it will be blinding in its brilliance.  :dsunny:

Father will bring all into the light and all will see in time.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?

I believe the Bible says they are awakened in the 2nd resurrection..

Where does it say no one can come to faith after resurrection?

Backing up a little, there will be folks who survive the 'end' of man's system of things and live on into the millennium.. I believe the Bible says as it talks of a person living to a very ripe age.. etc.. and many things about the milennium..

I don't find it that much of a stretch that the Day of Judgment is an age, during which those of the 2nd resurrection will come to faith.. will "believe".. which is what is required to have one's name written in the Book of Life..

As a matter of fact, if the first advent of Jesus fulfilled the ancient Hebrew Spring Holy Days.. why won't the (long) 2nd advent fulfill the Fall Holy Days? (The ancient ones of Lev 23, that is.)

Fall Holy Days - trumpets - day of atonement (doa) - tabernacles (rev 21)

Trumpets - 10 days later - day of atonement (doa) - 5 days later - tabernacles

trumpets-Jesus' return - 1000 yrs later - Day of review/Atonement - 500 yrs later - tabernacles (rev 21(6?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where are the verse which say after death, no more hope of believing?

Who can thwart God's will?

If the elect are simply elect through no reason or doing of their own.. then why would it take more stringent measures to bring the non elect to faith? if it's not dependent upon humans, in any way, but dependent only upon the will of God? Who can thwart God's will?

I believe the only reason there is the two 'classes' - 1st and 2nd resurrection, is because in a drama (truth proving drama) like in a movie, you need more than one character.

Jesus told the pharisees, unless you repent, you will die in your sins.. this is the only verse I can think of (besides all the erroneous 'hell' translations) where one might think no hope of coming to the faith/being saved, after death.

Of course, initially, to rise still in your sins is not as joyous an occasion as the 1st resurrection.. that's bad enough.. but why should the LOF they go through, be any different than the one we go through? of convincing, convicting and repentance.. and then transformation and purification..

To me, anyone being cast into the LOF is worst case scenario..

I recently realized the judgment day Daniel saw, and the one in Revelation is two separate ones.. check it out.. in Daniel it says "the books were opened"

also in rev.. what sort of judgment day is it when the stone (the builders rejected) not cut out by human hands smashes the ten toes and the whole statue/edifice of mankind's empires fall..

it's fiery judgment upon nations in the valley of armegeddon (same valley as gehenna? jerusalems' dump where criminals bodies were disposed?)

I've blabbered on enough.. night all.. and anyone.. have a great weekend, God bless! :smile:

oh, one more point.. the verse "anyone not believing" (name not written in the book of life) "will go to the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter.. even following death and the grave are cast into the LOF-the second death/nonlife.. hooray, death and the grave.. nevermore.. nevermore..
:dsunny:

[sheila]

the 2nd ressurrection is the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked[tokogae/mix/death]

       the first resurrection is of the spirit/Holy pure/sanctified...no mix of good/evil]

   the camp of the Holy city God loves is the free spirit life/Holy spirit gift...which is given to

all men...the tokogae is of satan/sin's law death...the accusor of the brethern gets his power of

death from men partaking of the tokogae[natural/sin in flesh man/corrupt image]

        those born of the spirit/holy/sanctified with new celestial body....2nd death has no hold

   lof only harms satan and his demons...vessels fitted for destruction.......for God has

  sanctified all men through His son...for the resurrection of all men are after His likeness

   God created man for His holy spirit and likeness to dwell in..even to receive a new celestial

body.  sanctification is set aside for God's purpose[Holy/pure]  It has always been the

Father's will..to make man in our image and likeness[Holy pure sacred]

   the camp f the Holy city is His Holiness/ sacred spirit..surrounded by sinful[evil spirit] sin's

law dwelling in men.

   the resurrection of the righteous[men] and wicked[evil spirits] is the releasing of satan from

the abyss to go forth to his doom...as he plans to fight against the purposes and will of God

  that man be raised up in His son's image...but God is with us, His favour and grace

to man will accomplish what is impossible with men..for by His spirit He shall raise up

man and clothe him in the best robe[immortal body] and God shall be ALL[no satan in man

dwelling as son of perdition/man of sin, to cut man off from God] in ALL[men]

    God's heart,God's mind and God's body likeness will be the new creature..the immortal

   new creature.man in God's likeness.

   the milleneal reign is the Sabbath....rest for man....if a man fall in the ditch/abyss,satan

demons/legions.....take him over a precipice to drown in the sea....the sea will give

up their dead[men killed by satan/demons possessing their bodies/sins law]

  the free gift of righteousness will welcome such prodigals home..and Holy/pure image

of Christ is the pattern of their resurrection....however the evil spirits shall come

up from the abyss to go forth[little leaven ferments whole lump] and possess other men

who still dwell in the flesh[camp]   and though man die once in the appearance of sinful flesh

condemned..and appointed unto death...He shall bear the image and Likeness of Jesus Christ

...and the last enemy death be placed under his feet.......

    for it is appointed unto men to die once.....but appointed unto satan and demons the LOF

....the twice dead...are evil spirits[bound in Noah's day  under earth..til released to go forth

  from their abyss to their eternal destruction]

   whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven[satan bound to tthis earth] whatever you

loose on earth[man] is loosed in heaven....[freedom for the captives who through fear of death

where held captive to sin all their lives]