Hail and Fire mingled with Blood

[jabcat]

It promotes truth. Rather than deny that there is a wrath that God has, which of course the ETers love when we make that mistake, it's better to acknowledge it but then UNDERSTAND it. Paul said that we should be WARNING people with tears.

1 Thessalonians 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

We simply need to understand what Paul was warning them about and that is why I talk about these things. There is PEACE in the truth, not apart from it.

I believe that the wrath of God is apparent when people believe a lie about God's judgment..

amen

[WhiteWings]

The way I look at it and my two cents is this: The physical things were already done in the OT as examples to us in these times, the end of the ages.

Could be so. But even then my words still apply. If "Hail and Fire mingled with Blood" points to an OT even we still need to fully understand that even to overlay it with a spiritual NT event.
Ever read the interpretations of the spinning wheel in Ezekiel. They vary immensely. How can we understand the spiritual things if we dont even understand the liteal thing?

I see all the Apostles employing spiritual discernment of those physical things,

I think you should give HS some credit too. Before Pentecost their understanding want quite a bit lower.

[WhiteWings]

BTW, I just wanted to say, that the hail and fire mixed with blood doesn't "kill" people in Revelation 8. It just burns trees and grass...

Those events follow the 7 parts of the Mishna.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Seth]

The way I look at it and my two cents is this: The physical things were already done in the OT as examples to us in these times, the end of the ages.

Could be so. But even then my words still apply. If "Hail and Fire mingled with Blood" points to an OT even we still need to fully understand that even to overlay it with a spiritual NT event.
Ever read the interpretations of the spinning wheel in Ezekiel. They vary immensely. How can we understand the spiritual things if we dont even understand the liteal thing?

I don't disagree. I just notice a pattern by how judgment is progressing from Genesis to Revelation, the physical to the spiritual.

I see all the Apostles employing spiritual discernment of those physical things,

I think you should give HS some credit too. Before Pentecost their understanding want quite a bit lower.

Of course. All credit goes to God, for the gift of God is a transformation by a renewing of the mind that we may understand God's good, perfect and pleasing will (Romans 12:2). Without that we cannot understand anything about God, including how his Love coincides with wrath.

Those events follow the 7 parts of the Mishna.

Isn't it telling that the 7 trumpets take imagery from the 10 plagues? The question is, what do those 10 plagues represent. I believe they represent that the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.

[WhiteWings]

Those events follow the 7 parts of the Mishna.

Isn't it telling that the 7 trumpets take imagery from the 10 plagues? The question is, what do those 10 plagues represent. I believe they represent that the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.

10 plagues or 7?
If so they seem to have great parallels with the 7 stages of syphilis.

[Seth]

10 physical plagues spiritualized by 7 trumpets.

10 commandments for the old covenant. 7 trumpets for 7 candlesticks under the new one. He is no respecter of persons for he his the judge of both jew and gentile.

[Seth]

Alot of people think that the sting of sin is death. Other way around. The pain the sting of death is SIN. To deliver us from death, God MUST and WILL deliver us from the sting of death as well, or he would be merciless.

Rev 9:9-10
The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.

check it out, a little bit about horses, since it is mentioned twice in the above scripture:

Isa 31:1
Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the Lord.

Jer 8:6
I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle.

[WhiteWings]

Ok, fire mingled with hail sounds a bit like atmospheric conditions.
Something similar happened on mt. Sinai. Clouds, thunder and lightning.
Cloud of witnesses.
The command where thundered towards the people.
Lightning. Brimstone is rooted in the word for flashing. Flashes of light. Brimstone is also connected to the word for God/Devine.
So there may have been no thunderstorm at all on that mountain.


We also read about angels with the sound of a trumpet/shofar. The shofar and trumpet were no musical instruments. (Some trumpets were).
The sofa has an extremely piercing monotonous sound that carries very far. It was basically used for warnings only. Call for battle. Call for prayer. Informing a festival started etc.
So an angel with a trumpet or voice as  trumpet can mean just that. An angel with a literal trumpet. But it just as well can mean an angel with a penetrating voice or message. Or a very authoritative message.

Maybe it can be compared to Jesus having a sword as a tongue. A tongue speaks. A sword cuts.
Combined it cuts the word. --> Correctly divides the word --> Correct teaching.


So my point is all of the above can be 100% literal in a poetic way.
So a real Jesus that can be seen with natural eyes but the sword in His mouth is just a poetic way of saying: He is a know it all teacher.



That's why  I think many Revelation things may be literal in a certain way. Darkness may be literal in the sense that the "spiritual eye" is blinded by teachings of man. Also know as atheists.

A mountain (=authority) falls into the sea (=mankind) and makes it bitter may be a king.
A good example of that is "king" Hitler landing in the sea called Germany. At a point 1/3 of the earth was part of a bitter war. (It's just an example. I'm not saying Hitler was that mountain.)


No I don't believe in literal Revelation dragons but they may very well symbolize very literal events. Revelation describes lots of war like things. It takes no rocket scientist to at least keep the possibility open that in tomorrow's newspaper we read Israel launched a full scale war against one of its neighbors and a week later the whole region is involved.
And yes, Seth could be right that the book of literal things (OT) was closed when the book or spiritual things (NT) was opened. Could very well be so. It's just that personally I'm not convinced.

[lastpost]

What does all this knowledge do for you?

The shy discerning bud, half-opened, half-scared, unfurls and basks in the Sunshine of the true Sun, resurrected from material thought and physical precepts, no longer desiring to bury the dead with those unopening in due season, crushed under the weight of theological mastery bounding in never-ending circles. 

The representation to the physical eye that which once seemed to satisfied – that is transcended by the purged spiritual eye of faith. The deathly casket is seamlessly penetrated, bypassed by the spirit which flies with the ease and lightness of a gossamer feather forming part of the angel's wing.

The hard cold husk surrounding the germ of Truth within – that is peeled away to reveal the warm beauty of the hidden Truth within, from which there is no harking back, no turning around to the old dry bones, as the oasis in front has been sighted and even its distant dew regenerates what has now become quickened.

God Bless.

[Seth]

WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.

[rosered]

WONDERFUL Thread !      Makes  me look  into things I never considered before

Thank  God  for  all of you  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.

Formula's? What do you mean by that Seth? Using OT words/concepts as interpretation for NT prophesies?

[sheila]

yes it is isn't?  it is brought to my mind Elijah with his sword slaying the false prophets of Baal

and the prophets of the groves[men/trees]...the showdown where  the true God of Israel

was differntiated from the false gods.....we have the Baal's,jezebel etc...and the Lord's letters

to the 7 churches....He speaks of fighting against false prophesy with the sword of His mouth

...and in fact reveals the Father as the TRUE GOD of Israel........in spirit and truth..

   the s[alvation]word of all from His mouth...slays the false prophets of Baal that say it is in

  God's heaart to burn His children in fire...........


   He also verbally dueled with the religious leaders in Jerusalem in His day..speaking truth,

exposing hypocrisy and their origin of the viper..a liar and murderer..not speaking truth....

or worshipping in spirit and truth.

   

   

[Seth]

WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.

Formula's? What do you mean by that Seth? Using OT words/concepts as interpretation for NT prophesies?

Formulas meaning, I'm not stuck on a single way of reading Revelation as though it is the ONLY way. I think once we start getting dogmatic about Revelation, pride begins to surface, and God just might need to show us how wrong we are. The church world tends to invent formulas to try and pin everything down, but God says his ways are unsearchable. Not to say that there are no answers, but he puts us in our place when we try to pin him down.

Regarding wars, James said this,


James 4:1
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

It's possible that some of the symbols could represent physical things, like wars....or not. But I think all those things lead people to the realization that the carnal mind is at the root of it all and the destruction of the carnal mind is our salvation from wars and fighting. So, the outward is still pointing inward. My understanding now, is that indeed God will turn us over to wars and fighting in order to bring our pride to a close.

BTW, regarding Revelation 19, John does not say he sees Jesus. He sees this: Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open  and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.

We understand that the rider is Jesus from all the other scriptures in the Bible that describe him as the Word made flesh. So we still must use interpretation from other scriptures to know who this is talking about. Does that mean Jesus is going to appear on a literal white horse? Maybe, but I think not, because the next scripture says that "With justice he judges and wages war." The question is, what kind of war? That is what I believe the white horse symbolizes, and the "sword" is the weapon.

For he shall judge the world with righteousness and truth. Yet he will not judge the world, his word will judge them, and he places his word into the saints.

[rosered]

Amen Shelia
  thought of Isaiah 9  last night

How the  only way  to know the truth IS to have the false  fall and fail  and end   :doh:

  Isaiah  9 with the sting in the tail  , being the false prophets  as liars   and the people were fuel for the fire  :sigh:



15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.[/color]

16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

[Seth]

Rosered, yes, the doctrines of man cause pain and stinging.


Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Does this represent a physical battle? Maybe. But I think it is very telling that the frogs are proceeding from mouths. And I believe the doctrines of ET etc expose nakedness and reveal our shame.

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.

Formula's? What do you mean by that Seth? Using OT words/concepts as interpretation for NT prophesies?

Formulas meaning, I'm not stuck on a single way of reading Revelation as though it is the ONLY way. I think once we start getting dogmatic about Revelation, pride begins to surface, and God just might need to show us how wrong we are. The church world tends to invent formulas to try and pin everything down, but God says his ways are unsearchable. Not to say that there are no answers, but he puts us in our place when we try to pin him down.

I can agree with that. But I'm also 100% there is a formula that's 99.99% sure never discovered by mankind.
So while agreeing not to be to dogmatic about an interpretation I think there must be some 'formala' to back it up. I mean if I just stated Jesus return 3 December 2023 at noon without the slightest evidence what's the value of such a view. Not even  :2c: imo.
So while it's fine with me people have vastly different formula's as I have I'm unable to agree with people that just throw random thought in the air....

[Seth]

To me, the only real valid hermeneutic is this:

1 Cor 2
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

To compare spiritual words with spiritual reality is what I believe that the Apostles do in the NT, and that is the pattern I am talking about going from physical to spiritual through the course of the Bible. Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."

The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.

[eaglesway]

To me, the only real valid hermeneutic is this:

1 Cor 2
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

To compare spiritual words with spiritual reality is what I believe that the Apostles do in the NT, and that is the pattern I am talking about going from physical to spiritual through the course of the Bible. Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."

The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.

Exactly.  The scriptures came into being as an expression of the Logos through the spirit, as Paul put it, "all-scripture is God-breathed"....or Peter...."holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit"

16For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, "This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy." We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain.

Because of that experience, we have the prophetic word made more sure. To which you do well to pay attention, as like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.


The natural mind of man cannot receive the things of the spirit, and that is why natural(religious)men continually butcher the scriptures in order to erect strongholds and fortresses against the true knowledge of God.

   Eph 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

The reason there is so much division is because the natural mind always misprioritizes the word, seeking to build mansions on twigs of knowledge and tradition.

IMO, The foundation is Jesus, the Logos, the Word made flesh, the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature-Christ crucified, the love of God revealed as reconciliation to all. Only the Spirit can enlighten the mind and tear away the veils to the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ- and most of those veils are made of scripture, in the wrong hands with the wrong heart and in the wrong mind :o)

[Seth]

 :goodpost: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."

The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.

Mmmm, how shall I answer this witout bashing Scripture which is not my intension at all.
Some verses are quite useless. Yes, I fully agree the HS is a great teacher. Yes I agree it should be Scripture based with the aid of HS. The problem is that often we think we interpretate correctly while we don't. So many 100% Bible based denominations that are all let by HS. And yet so vastly different. So somewhere along the line things went wrong otherwise all views would be the same.

Personal thought about interpretet Scripture with Scripture aka as Sola Scriptura: It's major error to do so.

[Seth]

That's the thing. We may all have different ideas of how we are to "spiritually discern". That's why we need to be patient and open minded and test.

Sola scriptura will count for nothing without the Romans 12:2 treatment, be transformed  by the renewing of your mind to know the will of God. Lacking that is a big contributor of ET by sola scriptura

[mplsfitter539]

Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."

The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.

Mmmm, how shall I answer this witout bashing Scripture which is not my intension at all.
Some verses are quite useless. Yes, I fully agree the HS is a great teacher. Yes I agree it should be Scripture based with the aid of HS. The problem is that often we think we interpretate correctly while we don't. So many 100% Bible based denominations that are all let by HS. And yet so vastly different. So somewhere along the line things went wrong otherwise all views would be the same.

Do you honestly believe what you just said?
Personal thought about interpretet Scripture with Scripture aka as Sola Scriptura: It's major error to do so.Mmmm, how shall I answer this witout bashing Scripture which is not my intension at all.
Some verses are quite useless. Yes, I fully agree the HS is a great teacher. Yes I agree it should be Scripture based with the aid of HS. The problem is that often we think we interpretate correctly while we don't. So many 100% Bible based denominations that are all let by HS. And yet so vastly different. So somewhere along the line things went wrong otherwise all views would be the same.

[WhiteWings]

Yeah I believe what I wrote.
Let me explain.

--Useless verses--
Useless verse are for example the verse that state we should use the correct interpretation of verse. Sure that's 100% true but how we know we use the correct interpretation? We should follow what the HS teaches us. But how we know it's satan doing some teaching? I think we never know for sure and that's why we have different views. Note I'm assuming all different views are honest views and don't have the sole purpose of irritating others.


--Sola Scriptura--
At first sight that seems a great starting point. Don't add external potentional wrong info. Often Sola Scriptura is usable. If the Bible states Solomon is the Son of David we don't need external evidence to verify that claim.
We are all using translations that are based on man's knowledge of translation. One error and Sola Scriptura no longer exists strictly speaking. Hebrew uses many idioms that are not explained in the Bible. Those idioms may be long forgotten. If we don't read the verse in the idiomatic way Jesus meant it to understood and His audience understood it then we left Sola Scriptura. We can only uncover the idioms by learning from other ancient documents. Only then we understood what Jesus meant. Yes we still use the same verse but external manmade teachings were added and with that Sola Scriptura was broken. When Jesus says 20 men kicked the bucket we can assume he was describing a soccer game. I'm not so sure that would be correct. Google for the original meaning of "it's raining cats and dogs" the list of possible answers is longer as you may assume. Obviously most possibilties are wrong. Is turning the other cheek just an act of peace or does it have cultural meaning as some scholars claim. Does Scripture follow some deeper harvest patterns we only can uncover when we study ancient farming? Does Scripture follow a wedding pattern that we can only understand by reading secular information of ancient weddings. Some feasts are clearly ordained by God. The purpose is explained as well. But in the NT we see feasts followed by Jesus that are not in the oT. How we know what those feasts are about? We read things like "the great day", "The last day" etc. how Jesus' audienece understod those things. Did ancient Jews call the great temple laver a sea of fire/glass because it sparkled?
I could go on and on but I'm sure you understand what I mean by now :-)

[Seth]

Sometimes God explains exactly what he means directly in his own scripture. Actually he does that a lot.