This post is not to explain everything, as I cannot say I know everything in the book of Revelation. I know a few things, but this post is just to show some connections from the Old Testament to the book of Revelation which seem to make sense to me. To inspire some thought about it.
Judgment by "hail and fire" upon "trees" and "grass":
Revelation 8:7
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
"Burning" signifies being brought low and humbled. Things that are tall are burned DOWN to stubble. The voice of God as hail and fire...
Psalm 18:12-13
At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Blood is for sacrifice, dying to self, the Gospel. The Hail and Fire are mixed with blood...
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
The voice, "hail and fire and blood" destroys the trees and grass by "burning". Men as trees and grass...
Mark 8:24
He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees"
Isaiah 40:6-7
All people are like grass, and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field, The grass withers and the flowers fall, because the breath of the Lord blows on them. Surely the people are grass.
Judgment by the word...
John 12:47-48
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
The words he spoke that they would not receive: The Gospel of the Kingdom.
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
By the judgment seat of God, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess...
Great insights Seth keep up the good work. The parallels you make here seem to add up. This post is a great example of interpreting scripture with scripture.
mplsfitter539, Thank you. Yeah, I have noticed that much of the imagery you find in Revelation can be found in the Old Testament and in prophecies that explain the image, so it's pretty cool to see when God explains his own metaphors. He is very generous.
It is not widely reported or known, but this world has had falls of large hail, fire, and blood.
Hail - we all know of this, but there are sometimes falls of VERY large hailstones, approaching the weights reported in the Revelation. Most, however, are not found before melting. No one knows how long this has been going on, except God.
Fire - meteor strikes have been known to cause fires, the most famous being the fires in and around Chicago. Forget Mrs. O'Leary's cow, for fires were breaking out all over the city, out in the countryside, one entire town and the surrounding country was devastated by fire, and about 1,200 people died from that fire. No other cause is even logical.
Blood - falls of something resembling blood were reported in recent years, and Charles Fort collected similar stories from the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
If nothing else, it means the time is short, and this eon is drawing to a close...
Further, I don't mean to disagree with your scripture interpreting scripture, but I'm thinking there is a literal fulfillment and a figurative fulfillment.
I tendto agree with Laz..first the natural...we have to wlk it out..just as Jesusdid...and I beleive
the scriptures testify to it. Jacob/Israel with 12 naatural sons....named natural Israel.......
Jesus Christ and His 12 disciples..named spiritualIsrael.
In the natural I waswashed off the highway by the floodwaters...followed by
a similiar spiritual expierence through Babylon religion
Quote from: Seth on October 31, 2013, 08:18:51 PM
This post is not to explain everything, as I cannot say I know everything in the book of Revelation. I know a few things, but this post is just to show some connections from the Old Testament to the book of Revelation which seem to make sense to me. To inspire some thought about it.
Judgment by "hail and fire" upon "trees" and "grass":
Revelation 8:7
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
"Burning" signifies being brought low and humbled. Things that are tall are burned DOWN to stubble. The voice of God as hail and fire...
Psalm 18:12-13
At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Blood is for sacrifice, dying to self, the Gospel. The Hail and Fire are mixed with blood...
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast on the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
The word "burned" is translated from the Greek word katakaio-G2618 which simply means burn. It gets more interesting if we look at the Hebrew counterpart of that word is seraph-H8313 which means burn or consume. At first sight there isn't any difference between the English and Greek word meanings.
A seraph is also a middle class messenger angel often named "burning ones", "flaming angel" or "fire falling from the sky". The Hebrew word often also points to sacrificial burning; and that was of course what the Golden Altar of which the coals are taken.
Exod 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shall you burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
Seraph is also closely related to the word 'sar' which mean prince. A prince is a servant or a king. So, all that combined makes it seem likely that Seraph angels are send for judgment.
yep...Satan himself suceeds in causing God's firey judgements to come..because
he deceived all the nations and their armies tosurround the camp of the Holy
city. satan become wrathful because he knew histime was short..and misleadsall the nations
....and when the nations become wrathful God's wrath comes down as fire from heaven.
Man is delivered from the wrath of satan by the wrath of God upon satan[satan's doom]
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2013, 05:21:44 PM
A seraph is also a middle class messenger angel often named "burning ones", "flaming angel" or "fire falling from the sky". The Hebrew word often also points to sacrificial burning; and that was of course what the Golden Altar of which the coals are taken.
Exod 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shall you burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
Seraph is also closely related to the word 'sar' which mean prince. A prince is a servant or a king. So, all that combined makes it seem likely that Seraph angels are send for judgment.
When the Sons of God are revealed to deliver creation into their liberty, they will be messengers of God with tongues of fire given to them of God...blowing the trumpet in Zion, their mother city...
Quote from: sheila on November 01, 2013, 04:57:44 PM
I tendto agree with Laz..first the natural...we have to wlk it out..just as Jesusdid...and I beleive
the scriptures testify to it. Jacob/Israel with 12 naatural sons....named natural Israel.......
Jesus Christ and His 12 disciples..named spiritualIsrael.
In the natural I waswashed off the highway by the floodwaters...followed by
a similiar spiritual expierence through Babylon religion
I don't personally believe that there will literal hail and fire mixed with literal blood in the day of the lord, any more than I believe Jesus is going to show up with a literal sword literally sticking out of his mouth in Revelation 19 to literally hack people to death physically. Jesus loves them...
just don't let sodom and gomarrah..and the pre-flood world escape yournotice......
nor the physical destruction of Jerusalem.....didn't Josephesus the historian write about a lot
of prophets rising up and telling the people God would not destroy Jerusalem...andthe people
beleived them..and stayed there..and burned up in Jerusalem with literal fire
..
1Peter 3;20,21...in it only a few people,8 inall,were saved through water.........
a time is coming when this world is stored up for fire..andwe need to be saved through it.
2 Peter 3;12 as you lokforward to the day of God andspeed it's coming. That day will
bring about the destruction of the heavens by firemand the elements will melt inthe heat.
But in keeping with Hispromise we are looking forward to a new heaven,new earth
the heavens will disappear with a roar
2 pETER 3;1-10...WHERE IS THIS COMING HE PROMISED.....BUT THEY DELIBERATELY FORGET
THAT LONG AGO BY GOD'S WORD THE HEAVENS EXISTEDAND THE EARTH WAS FORMED OUT
OF WATER AND BYWATER. BY THESE WATERS ALSOM THE WORLD AT THAT TIME WAS DELUGED
AND DESTROYED.
BY THE SAME WORD THE PRESENT HEAVENS AND EARTH ARE RESERVED FOR FIRE,BEING KEPT
FOR THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT AND DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN
THIS EARTH IS A BALL OF MAGMA WITH AVERY THIN CRUST/OUTER SHELL THAT WE LIVE ON
THE HEAVENS ARE A VERY BUSY PLACE...3 COMETS THIS MONTH NEAR EARTH ASTEROIDS
WHIZ BY CONTINUALLY..AS WELL AS METEORITES...STARS GO SUPERNOVA..PULSARS..
GALXIES COLLIDE..APPEARS TO ME ......HIM SAYING THIS EARTH ANDHEAVENS IS STORED UP
FOR FIRE IS ACCURATE TRUTH...........
BUT,WHETHER WE PASS THROUGH THE WATERS AND FIRE HE IS WITH US........
Quote from: sheila on November 02, 2013, 01:36:45 AM
just don't let sodom and gomarrah..and the pre-flood world escape yournotice......
nor the physical destruction of Jerusalem.....didn't Josephesus the historian write about a lot
of prophets rising up and telling the people God would not destroy Jerusalem...andthe people
beleived them..and stayed there..and burned up in Jerusalem with literal fire
..
They haven't escaped my notice. :HeartThrob:
But the pattern I see towards understanding of the day of the lord is in that all the physical things of the Old Testament were written as admonitions for us, and I see the Apostles interpreting that spiritually.
2 Peter 2
6 And turning the
cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish
in their OWN corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Sodom and Gomorrah is a physical ensample of how the wicked shall be judged spiritually in the day of the Lord. The physical examples happened already as a warning to us, not to avoid physical fire, but to avoid "our own corruption."
In my opinion and understanding the physical part of Revelation has been fulfilled
John 12
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not,
I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.If Revelation concerns "in the last day" you already have your answer as to how they will be judged. So, again, when Revelation 19 says that Jesus is sitting on the "horse" with a "sword" in his "mouth" I would be very shocked to see him with a physical sword in his mouth hacking people to bloody bits, when he already said "I judge him not" and he came not to judge to the world but to "save the world" and that "the
word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him."
I think the literal portion of Revelation 19 has been fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry. Now the Gospel he spoke has been given to a spiritual house, who has his "mouth" with a "sword" proceeding from it. IMHO
Ok , Seth and Shelia you guys made me look at this really close all moring been looking into this
I am amazed by what I found !! I know that Jesus Christ IS THIS BOOK OF LIFE / THE WORD OF GOD , hidden like manna all though it and How can we see Jesus
I just saw Jesus Christ as the FLAMING SWORD keeping the way to the Tree of Life ,and thoughout the Word we can see this Sames flaming Sword coming out of his Mouth to Stop the man of sin from entering in the garden of Eden !
also Making Him the stumbling block and rock of Offence in that sense ,,and Keeper of the rewards in Rev 2 and 3
look by other scriptures how we can see Jesus !When the Sword of Jesus mouth fights against the Believers and the disobedient man of sin being judged like the unbelivers wow!! , you may not see this at first but when comparing it with the other scriptures and 2thess! , you can see it more clearly I hope , as I did !
We see in 2Thess 2:8-11, where the sword of His mouth will bring a "strong delusion, that they might believe a Lie."
Psalm 149:6
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
Isaiah 1:20
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 1:19-21
Isaiah 49:2
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isaiah 49:1-3
Revelation 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength
Isaiah 66:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
see how they say the same things above here !
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
I hope this helps Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.
Proverbs 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.
Rev 2 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Quote from: Seth on November 01, 2013, 10:31:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2013, 05:21:44 PM
A seraph is also a middle class messenger angel often named "burning ones", "flaming angel" or "fire falling from the sky". The Hebrew word often also points to sacrificial burning; and that was of course what the Golden Altar of which the coals are taken.
Exod 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shall you burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
Seraph is also closely related to the word 'sar' which mean prince. A prince is a servant or a king. So, all that combined makes it seem likely that Seraph angels are send for judgment.
When the Sons of God are revealed to deliver creation into their liberty, they will be messengers of God with tongues of fire given to them of God...blowing the trumpet in Zion, their mother city...
amen. Isaiah 25:7And HE will destroy in this mountain the vail the face(presence) of the covering that is cast over all the people and the val that is spread over all the nations.
2 Cor 4:4 If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine on them............ For God who said "Light shall shine out of darkness is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
Colossians somewhere For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himselff and He has entrusted to us the word of reconciliation.
Priests for a thousnd years, whether you c it literal or figurative matters not, we are the "many sons unto glory", the man-child emerging from the womb, destroying the works of the adversary with "Good news of goodwill to all men" and the hope of eternal life, not for the few- but for all :o)
Give us aid against the enemy,for the help of man is worthless. With God we will gainthe victory
and He will trample down our enemies
Rosered,
Awesome post. Judgment by his mouth: both casting out from the city and entering into the city.
Isaiah 28:1-3
Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim's drunkards, to the fading flower, his glorious beauty, set on the head of a fertile valley—to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine! See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong. Like a hailstorm and a destructive wind, like a driving rain and a flooding downpour, he will throw it forcefully to the ground. That wreath, the pride of Ephraim's drunkards, will be trampled underfoot.
....trampled, like a winepress....
Isaiah 28:16-18
Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell (sheol - grave) shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
:thumbsup:
Shelia ,Psalms 60 , 11&12 great verses !
Seth ,Also some great verses!!
Thanks
Job 38:21-23
(KJV)
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
I know what you mean by the mens as trees walking / being of either the tree of knowledge of good and evil or the trees of life and as the flesh is grass to be burned in the fire or cast into an oven , those times are for the times of Jacobs troubles to me , before the name change to
Israel , GOD dealing with us directly /personally
:girlheart:
Yes, since the old agreement is to be disannulled (a great marriage covenant word..), this is why the "hail and fire" is to be mingled with "blood," the blood of the lamb, a new covenant to be rid of the old "hiding place."
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2013, 11:55:13 PM
Yes, since the old agreement is to be disannulled (a great marriage covenant word..), this is why the "hail and fire" is to be mingled with "blood," the blood of the lamb, a new covenant to be rid of the old "hiding place."
Yes, Seth we see Jesus Christ , the Lord and Savior of the world !! the Lamb of God ,
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the [New] world and Life in Christ to me :thumbsup:John 14:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world cometh,
and hath nothing in me.31 But
that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
There are lots of NT verses somehow referencing to the OT. Or certain words in verses.
The only use of hail I know was in a OT war.
Blood can point to bloodshed/war but also Jesus' sacrifice.
Fire can be literal fire to destroy, literal fire on an altar or but also "Pentecost fire".
So I can read that verse as absolute total destruction.
Or a healing (blood, fire) verse, but still hurtfully (hail) direct.
Imo, if we can't connect the words of the OT we won't get past the guesswork phase.
Also consider that there are always several meanings. Up to four I would say.
So literal killing may pave the way to spiritual healing.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 04, 2013, 08:32:51 AM
There are lots of NT verses somehow referencing to the OT. Or certain words in verses.
The only use of hail I know was in a OT war.
Blood can point to bloodshed/war but also Jesus' sacrifice.
Fire can be literal fire to destroy, literal fire on an altar or but also "Pentecost fire".
So I can read that verse as absolute total destruction.
Or a healing (blood, fire) verse, but still hurtfully (hail) direct.
Imo, if we can't connect the words of the OT we won't get past the guesswork phase.
Also consider that there are always several meanings. Up to four I would say.
So literal killing may pave the way to spiritual healing.
:2c:
Great thoughts WW !
I would say that is true
we ALL do interpt the Word of God as we ''see '' as we ''hear '' and as'' we Do''
and the warnings are there as well as the blessings of God
whats flesh is flesh and whats spirit is Spirit , but not every spirit is Like Gods , though He made them all and purposes them all according to His own Will .
the old expression ''to give them enough rope to hang themselves '' so to speak .
I do not mean this in a bad way , just a few examples to to explain what I mean
Pharaoh was allowed to reign as a King and God hardened his heart as well as Pharaoh hardening his own heart , untill Gods Word was fulifiiled
same with king Saul and king David and King Solomon Nebuchadnezzer etc ,
God always sent someone to warn them before a judgment was passed , like Moses to Pharaoh and David to Saul and Nathan the prophet to David etc , I do see this pattern that God is faithful as promised proving to me , that though they are Loved and purposed in God their has always been conquences for sin in their earthly lives and choices
Some may not believe that but , if you read the examples you can see that lesson every time in HIS WORD
I Love that weare to use these examples to learn from and also the experience teaches us as well when we experience the suffering
Suffering for doing good or suffering for doing evil seems to be what is happening and Peter said it here and Paul does too the sufferings of Christ is to be like Him , He suffered for doing GOOD and the world hated Him for it
the world loves its own , just as Jesus loves His own , they seem to be , to me the Good shall prevail in the End , we are to hang on till the end to remain
some examples in the scriptures
3.Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:17-19
4.2 Corinthians 1:5
For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:4-6
5.2 Corinthians 1:6
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2 Corinthians 1:5-7
6.2 Corinthians 1:7
And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2 Corinthians 1:6-8
7.2 Corinthians 6:6
By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2 Corinthians 6:5-7
8.Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philippians 3:9-11
9.Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Colossians 1:23-25
10.2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:1-3
11.Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 2:8-10 (
12.Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:9-11
13.James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
James 5:9-11
14.1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:10-12 (in Context)
15.1 Peter 2:19
For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1 Peter 2:18-20 (in Context) 16.1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1 Peter 4:12-14 (in Context)
17.1 Peter 5:1
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1 Peter 5:1-3
I do believe all things done are for theGlory of God the Father , though Jesus Christ our Lord as its an on going process at this time , till ''Time'' is no more
re; if we can't connect the OT..............SOS 7;13...at our door is every delicacy...new and old.
wonderful thread..btw
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 04, 2013, 08:32:51 AM
Imo, if we can't connect the words of the OT we won't get past the guesswork phase.
Also consider that there are always several meanings. Up to four I would say.
So literal killing may pave the way to spiritual healing.
:2c:
The way I look at it and my two cents is this: The physical things were already done in the OT as examples to us in these times, the end of the ages. I see all the Apostles employing spiritual discernment of those physical things, the flood of Noah, representing salvation from sin by the Spirit, and the fire of Sodom interpreted as "they shall perish in their own corruption." I try to follow their pattern. When Jesus says "I will NOT judge" those who reject him, I take him at his word, and that his word will judge them.
From the OT, to the NT, I see the pattern of scriptural interpretation fitting the pattern of "first the natural, then the spiritual."
Like rosered said, we have all already been warned by prophets, men of God in the NT regarding the coming judgment and what to expect. What they warned about has nothing to do with physical things, at least in my opinion. They warned about a spiritual fire, and a spiritual destruction.
The cup of God's wrath is something for the world to DRINK. That means it is an attack against the carnal mind, an internal judgment against the flesh.
BTW, I just wanted to say, that the hail and fire mixed with blood doesn't "kill" people in Revelation 8. It just burns trees and grass...
We have a choice. Interpret that literally and know that nobody will be hurt by the hail and fire, or add to the Revelation and assume that people will be hurt, even though it only says "trees and grass."
Or, we can know that trees and grass has a spiritual interpretation, at which case, we might as well go all the way in spiritual discernment.
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 08:09:02 PM
Like rosered said, we have all already been warned by prophets, men of God in the NT regarding the coming judgment and what to expect. What they warned about has nothing to do with physical things, at least in my opinion. They warned about a spiritual fire, and a spiritual destruction.
The cup of God's wrath is something for the world to DRINK. That means it is an attack against the carnal mind, an internal judgment against the flesh.
Looks like I am going to off-side myself again, but I just have to ask. What does all this knowledge do for you? I agree with your statement that it will be a spiritual cleansing because the old physical carnal body will have passed away. Yet, does all of the talk about a fiery judgment bring peace or does it promote fear?
The cup of Fathers wrath is figurative. Father cannot be angry as we know anger. The reason is simple, there is not a single part of Him that can Change. He can not be angry one moment and happy the next. Father just IS. It is we who isn't. I believe the judgment to be swift. My reasoning is simple. Father has told us that the expectations are based on a bell curve. Those that have been given little will face little correction, because the CHURCH as not corrupted them. He has told us that He has hardened the hearts of many, He will not expect from them what has not been given Jesus told us so. However, those that breathe fire and damn millions will be in for a rude shock, but even then, how long can a carnal ignorant soul stand in defiance of the Light of TRUTH and LOVE of Christ. A nano second?
I truly look forward to whatever is to come my way. Whatever I face I will own. Love Wins :HeartThrob:
So yes, there is a huge lesson in all that the prophets taught: Love, Trust and Faith.
A Love that is unshakable for Father, self and EVERYONE else
A Trust that brings a peace and a joy that is second to NOTHING on this Earth.
A Faith that surpasses all understanding and reasoning. A Faith that unquenchable.
All this accumulates in Peace and Joy.
Than you Father :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 04, 2013, 09:11:16 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 08:09:02 PM
Like rosered said, we have all already been warned by prophets, men of God in the NT regarding the coming judgment and what to expect. What they warned about has nothing to do with physical things, at least in my opinion. They warned about a spiritual fire, and a spiritual destruction.
The cup of God's wrath is something for the world to DRINK. That means it is an attack against the carnal mind, an internal judgment against the flesh.
Looks like I am going to off-side myself again, but I just have to ask. What does all this knowledge do for you? I agree with your statement that it will be a spiritual cleansing because the old physical carnal body will have passed away. Yet, does all of the talk about a fiery judgment bring peace or does it promote fear?
It promotes truth. Rather than deny that there is a wrath that God has, which of course the ETers love when we make that mistake, it's better to acknowledge it but then UNDERSTAND it. Paul said that we should be WARNING people with tears.
1 Thessalonians 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
We simply need to understand what Paul was warning them about and that is why I talk about these things. There is PEACE in the truth, not apart from it.
I believe that the wrath of God is apparent when people believe a lie about God's judgment, thinking that it is a literal fire. People are suffering and we are warning them, get out from under a doctrine that will only make you suffer.
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 09:17:11 PM
It promotes truth. Rather than deny that there is a wrath that God has, which of course the ETers love when we make that mistake, it's better to acknowledge it but then UNDERSTAND it. Paul said that we should be WARNING people with tears.
1 Thessalonians 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
We simply need to understand what Paul was warning them about and that is why I talk about these things. There is PEACE in the truth, not apart from it.
I believe that the wrath of God is apparent when people believe a lie about God's judgment..
amen
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 08:09:02 PM
The way I look at it and my two cents is this: The physical things were already done in the OT as examples to us in these times, the end of the ages.
Could be so. But even then my words still apply. If "Hail and Fire mingled with Blood" points to an OT even we still need to fully understand that even to overlay it with a spiritual NT event.
Ever read the interpretations of the spinning wheel in Ezekiel. They vary immensely. How can we understand the spiritual things if we dont even understand the liteal thing?
QuoteI see all the Apostles employing spiritual discernment of those physical things,
I think you should give HS some credit too. Before Pentecost their understanding want quite a bit lower.
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 08:36:06 PM
BTW, I just wanted to say, that the hail and fire mixed with blood doesn't "kill" people in Revelation 8. It just burns trees and grass...
Those events follow the 7 parts of the Mishna.
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Quote from: WhiteWings on November 04, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 08:09:02 PM
The way I look at it and my two cents is this: The physical things were already done in the OT as examples to us in these times, the end of the ages.
Could be so. But even then my words still apply. If "Hail and Fire mingled with Blood" points to an OT even we still need to fully understand that even to overlay it with a spiritual NT event.
Ever read the interpretations of the spinning wheel in Ezekiel. They vary immensely. How can we understand the spiritual things if we dont even understand the liteal thing?
I don't disagree. I just notice a pattern by how judgment is progressing from Genesis to Revelation, the physical to the spiritual.
QuoteQuoteI see all the Apostles employing spiritual discernment of those physical things,
I think you should give HS some credit too. Before Pentecost their understanding want quite a bit lower.
Of course. All credit goes to God, for the gift of God is a transformation by a renewing of the mind that we may understand God's good, perfect and pleasing will (Romans 12:2). Without that we cannot understand anything about God, including how his Love coincides with wrath.
QuoteThose events follow the 7 parts of the Mishna.
Isn't it telling that the 7 trumpets take imagery from the 10 plagues? The question is, what do those 10 plagues represent. I believe they represent that the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2013, 10:07:44 PMQuoteThose events follow the 7 parts of the Mishna.
Isn't it telling that the 7 trumpets take imagery from the 10 plagues? The question is, what do those 10 plagues represent. I believe they represent that the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.
10 plagues or 7?
If so they seem to have great parallels with the 7 stages of syphilis.
10 physical plagues spiritualized by 7 trumpets.
10 commandments for the old covenant. 7 trumpets for 7 candlesticks under the new one. He is no respecter of persons for he his the judge of both jew and gentile.
Alot of people think that the sting of sin is death. Other way around. The pain the sting of death is SIN. To deliver us from death, God MUST and WILL deliver us from the sting of death as well, or he would be merciless.
Rev 9:9-10
The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
check it out, a little bit about horses, since it is mentioned twice in the above scripture:
Isa 31:1
Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the Lord.
Jer 8:6
I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle.
Ok, fire mingled with hail sounds a bit like atmospheric conditions.
Something similar happened on mt. Sinai. Clouds, thunder and lightning.
Cloud of witnesses.
The command where thundered towards the people.
Lightning. Brimstone is rooted in the word for flashing. Flashes of light. Brimstone is also connected to the word for God/Devine.
So there may have been no thunderstorm at all on that mountain.
We also read about angels with the sound of a trumpet/shofar. The shofar and trumpet were no musical instruments. (Some trumpets were).
The sofa has an extremely piercing monotonous sound that carries very far. It was basically used for warnings only. Call for battle. Call for prayer. Informing a festival started etc.
So an angel with a trumpet or voice as trumpet can mean just that. An angel with a literal trumpet. But it just as well can mean an angel with a penetrating voice or message. Or a very authoritative message.
Maybe it can be compared to Jesus having a sword as a tongue. A tongue speaks. A sword cuts.
Combined it cuts the word. --> Correctly divides the word --> Correct teaching.
So my point is all of the above can be 100% literal in a poetic way.
So a real Jesus that can be seen with natural eyes but the sword in His mouth is just a poetic way of saying: He is a know it all teacher.
That's why I think many Revelation things may be literal in a certain way. Darkness may be literal in the sense that the "spiritual eye" is blinded by teachings of man. Also know as atheists.
A mountain (=authority) falls into the sea (=mankind) and makes it bitter may be a king.
A good example of that is "king" Hitler landing in the sea called Germany. At a point 1/3 of the earth was part of a bitter war. (It's just an example. I'm not saying Hitler was that mountain.)
No I don't believe in literal Revelation dragons but they may very well symbolize very literal events. Revelation describes lots of war like things. It takes no rocket scientist to at least keep the possibility open that in tomorrow's newspaper we read Israel launched a full scale war against one of its neighbors and a week later the whole region is involved.
And yes, Seth could be right that the book of literal things (OT) was closed when the book or spiritual things (NT) was opened. Could very well be so. It's just that personally I'm not convinced.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 04, 2013, 09:11:16 PM
What does all this knowledge do for you?
The shy discerning bud, half-opened, half-scared, unfurls and basks in the Sunshine of the true Sun, resurrected from material thought and physical precepts, no longer desiring to bury the dead with those unopening in due season, crushed under the weight of theological mastery bounding in never-ending circles.
The representation to the physical eye that which once seemed to satisfied – that is transcended by the purged spiritual eye of faith. The deathly casket is seamlessly penetrated, bypassed by the spirit which flies with the ease and lightness of a gossamer feather forming part of the angel's wing.
The hard cold husk surrounding the germ of Truth within – that is peeled away to reveal the warm beauty of the hidden Truth within, from which there is no harking back, no turning around to the old dry bones, as the oasis in front has been sighted and even its distant dew regenerates what has now become quickened.
God Bless.
WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.
WONDERFUL Thread ! Makes me look into things I never considered before
Thank God for all of you :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.
Formula's? What do you mean by that Seth? Using OT words/concepts as interpretation for NT prophesies?
yes it is isn't? it is brought to my mind Elijah with his sword slaying the false prophets of Baal
and the prophets of the groves[men/trees]...the showdown where the true God of Israel
was differntiated from the false gods.....we have the Baal's,jezebel etc...and the Lord's letters
to the 7 churches....He speaks of fighting against false prophesy with the sword of His mouth
...and in fact reveals the Father as the TRUE GOD of Israel........in spirit and truth..
the s[alvation]word of all from His mouth...slays the false prophets of Baal that say it is in
God's heaart to burn His children in fire...........
He also verbally dueled with the religious leaders in Jerusalem in His day..speaking truth,
exposing hypocrisy and their origin of the viper..a liar and murderer..not speaking truth....
or worshipping in spirit and truth.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2013, 05:13:13 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.
Formula's? What do you mean by that Seth? Using OT words/concepts as interpretation for NT prophesies?
Formulas meaning, I'm not stuck on a single way of reading Revelation as though it is the ONLY way. I think once we start getting dogmatic about Revelation, pride begins to surface, and God just might need to show us how wrong we are. The church world tends to invent formulas to try and pin everything down, but God says his ways are unsearchable. Not to say that there are no answers, but he puts us in our place when we try to pin him down.
Regarding wars, James said this,
James 4:1
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
It's possible that some of the symbols could represent physical things, like wars....or not. But I think all those things lead people to the realization that the carnal mind is at the root of it all and the destruction of the carnal mind is our salvation from wars and fighting. So, the outward is still pointing inward. My understanding now, is that indeed God will turn us over to wars and fighting in order to bring our pride to a close.
BTW, regarding Revelation 19, John does not say he sees Jesus. He sees this: Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
We understand that the rider is Jesus from all the other scriptures in the Bible that describe him as the Word made flesh. So we still must use interpretation from other scriptures to know who this is talking about. Does that mean Jesus is going to appear on a literal white horse? Maybe, but I think not, because the next scripture says that "With justice he judges and wages war." The question is, what kind of war? That is what I believe the white horse symbolizes, and the "sword" is the weapon.
For he shall judge the world with righteousness and truth. Yet he will not judge the world, his word will judge them, and he places his word into the saints.
Amen Shelia
thought of Isaiah 9 last night
How the only way to know the truth IS to have the false fall and fail and end :doh:
Isaiah 9 with the sting in the tail , being the false prophets as liars and the people were fuel for the fire :sigh:
15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.[/color]
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
Rosered, yes, the doctrines of man cause pain and stinging.
Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Does this represent a physical battle? Maybe. But I think it is very telling that the frogs are proceeding from mouths. And I believe the doctrines of ET etc expose nakedness and reveal our shame.
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 05:54:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2013, 05:13:13 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
WhiteWings, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in interpretation formulas, and Revelation is a hard book, so you may very well be right too. I just see a pattern in progressive revelation in the Bible. I find it interesting to explore.
Formula's? What do you mean by that Seth? Using OT words/concepts as interpretation for NT prophesies?
Formulas meaning, I'm not stuck on a single way of reading Revelation as though it is the ONLY way. I think once we start getting dogmatic about Revelation, pride begins to surface, and God just might need to show us how wrong we are. The church world tends to invent formulas to try and pin everything down, but God says his ways are unsearchable. Not to say that there are no answers, but he puts us in our place when we try to pin him down.
I can agree with that. But I'm also 100% there is a formula that's 99.99% sure never discovered by mankind.
So while agreeing not to be to dogmatic about an interpretation I think there must be some 'formala' to back it up. I mean if I just stated Jesus return 3 December 2023 at noon without the slightest evidence what's the value of such a view. Not even :2c: imo.
So while it's fine with me people have vastly different formula's as I have I'm unable to agree with people that just throw random thought in the air....
To me, the only real valid hermeneutic is this:
1 Cor 2
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
To compare spiritual words with spiritual reality is what I believe that the Apostles do in the NT, and that is the pattern I am talking about going from physical to spiritual through the course of the Bible. Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."
The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
To me, the only real valid hermeneutic is this:
1 Cor 2
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
To compare spiritual words with spiritual reality is what I believe that the Apostles do in the NT, and that is the pattern I am talking about going from physical to spiritual through the course of the Bible. Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."
The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.
Exactly. The scriptures came into being as an expression of the Logos through the spirit, as Paul put it, "all-scripture is God-breathed"....or Peter...."holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit"
16For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, "This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy." We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain.
Because of that experience, we have the prophetic word made more sure. To which you do well to pay attention, as like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.
The natural mind of man cannot receive the things of the spirit, and that is why natural(religious)men continually butcher the scriptures in order to erect strongholds and fortresses against the true knowledge of God.
Eph 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.
The reason there is so much division is because the natural mind always misprioritizes the word, seeking to build mansions on twigs of knowledge and tradition.
IMO, The foundation is Jesus, the Logos, the Word made flesh, the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature-Christ crucified, the love of God revealed as reconciliation to all. Only the Spirit can enlighten the mind and tear away the veils to the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ- and most of those veils are made of scripture, in the wrong hands with the wrong heart and in the wrong mind :o)
:goodpost: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."
The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.
Mmmm, how shall I answer this witout bashing Scripture which is not my intension at all.
Some verses are quite useless. Yes, I fully agree the HS is a great teacher. Yes I agree it should be Scripture based with the aid of HS. The problem is that often we think we interpretate correctly while we don't. So many 100% Bible based denominations that are all let by HS. And yet so vastly different. So somewhere along the line things went wrong otherwise all views would be the same.
Personal thought about interpretet Scripture with Scripture aka as Sola Scriptura: It's major error to do so.
That's the thing. We may all have different ideas of how we are to "spiritually discern". That's why we need to be patient and open minded and test.
Sola scriptura will count for nothing without the Romans 12:2 treatment, be transformed by the renewing of your mind to know the will of God. Lacking that is a big contributor of ET by sola scriptura
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2013, 03:53:52 AM
Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
Nobody can do that with random thoughts, because "the Holy Ghost teacheth." That is why I try to interpret scripture with other scripture, and if I don't know the meaning, I just say "I don't know."
The formulas I am referring to are when people plug the holes with default to literalism, or some other set way other than the scripture sets forth, and I see no justification for that kind of hermeneutic in the Bible and certainly not with the above scripture.
Mmmm, how shall I answer this witout bashing Scripture which is not my intension at all.
Some verses are quite useless. Yes, I fully agree the HS is a great teacher. Yes I agree it should be Scripture based with the aid of HS. The problem is that often we think we interpretate correctly while we don't. So many 100% Bible based denominations that are all let by HS. And yet so vastly different. So somewhere along the line things went wrong otherwise all views would be the same.
Do you honestly believe what you just said?
Personal thought about interpretet Scripture with Scripture aka as Sola Scriptura: It's major error to do so.Mmmm, how shall I answer this witout bashing Scripture which is not my intension at all.
Some verses are quite useless. Yes, I fully agree the HS is a great teacher. Yes I agree it should be Scripture based with the aid of HS. The problem is that often we think we interpretate correctly while we don't. So many 100% Bible based denominations that are all let by HS. And yet so vastly different. So somewhere along the line things went wrong otherwise all views would be the same.
Yeah I believe what I wrote.
Let me explain.
--Useless verses--
Useless verse are for example the verse that state we should use the correct interpretation of verse. Sure that's 100% true but how we know we use the correct interpretation? We should follow what the HS teaches us. But how we know it's satan doing some teaching? I think we never know for sure and that's why we have different views. Note I'm assuming all different views are honest views and don't have the sole purpose of irritating others.
--Sola Scriptura--
At first sight that seems a great starting point. Don't add external potentional wrong info. Often Sola Scriptura is usable. If the Bible states Solomon is the Son of David we don't need external evidence to verify that claim.
We are all using translations that are based on man's knowledge of translation. One error and Sola Scriptura no longer exists strictly speaking. Hebrew uses many idioms that are not explained in the Bible. Those idioms may be long forgotten. If we don't read the verse in the idiomatic way Jesus meant it to understood and His audience understood it then we left Sola Scriptura. We can only uncover the idioms by learning from other ancient documents. Only then we understood what Jesus meant. Yes we still use the same verse but external manmade teachings were added and with that Sola Scriptura was broken. When Jesus says 20 men kicked the bucket we can assume he was describing a soccer game. I'm not so sure that would be correct. Google for the original meaning of "it's raining cats and dogs" the list of possible answers is longer as you may assume. Obviously most possibilties are wrong. Is turning the other cheek just an act of peace or does it have cultural meaning as some scholars claim. Does Scripture follow some deeper harvest patterns we only can uncover when we study ancient farming? Does Scripture follow a wedding pattern that we can only understand by reading secular information of ancient weddings. Some feasts are clearly ordained by God. The purpose is explained as well. But in the NT we see feasts followed by Jesus that are not in the oT. How we know what those feasts are about? We read things like "the great day", "The last day" etc. how Jesus' audienece understod those things. Did ancient Jews call the great temple laver a sea of fire/glass because it sparkled?
I could go on and on but I'm sure you understand what I mean by now :-)
Sometimes God explains exactly what he means directly in his own scripture. Actually he does that a lot.
I don't have much of a problem with the idea of seeking out idiom meanings, but there are a few caveats to that method as well.
Matt 13:10-11
And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto YOU (the disciples) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them (the crowd) it is NOT given."
Parables are useful when the explanation is immediately given, because then you can see nuances of the teaching within the parable. The problem for the non-disciples is that Jesus never explained his parables to them, because "unto them it was not given." If you notice the pattern by which Jesus taught he would say "The kingdom of God is like this" then "the kingdom of God is like that." One after the other, but no explanation.
So, if I look to common knowledge of that time for an explanation, I might accidentally fall into the same understanding as those who crucified Christ. I may have no more understanding of what he was really talking about than they did.
For example, If "kick the bucket" was a common idiom for "die," and I didn't want to give my meaning to the larger crowd, I might use the phrase "kick the bucket" but not mean what they think I meant. The word "kick" might have a specific meaning and same with "bucket" so in that way, I might be talking about "life" while they think I mean "death."
If I take Romans 12:2 and understand that knowing the will of God requires a converted mind, if I arrive at the same understanding as those with unconverted minds, then I think that's a problem.
Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2013, 05:00:54 PM
Sometimes God explains exactly what he means directly in his own scripture. Actually he does that a lot.
Many who fully agree will have a (vastly) different interpretation of what God said. That summarizes my view :friendstu:
True, but that doesn't matter...
God will show the truth in the end. He's always been in charge of that.
Whether or not sola scriptura interpretations are correct can be examined on how well they harmonize with the rest of scripture. That's a good way to test the interpretation.
Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2013, 06:09:29 PM
I don't have much of a problem with the idea of seeking out idiom meanings, but there are a few caveats to that method as well.
Likely more than a few. I didn't intend to promote it as a foolproof method because it isn't. It's just my opinion that it's better than no external references at all. And obviously if a certain source conflicts with the Bible, that source should be ignored.
QuoteParables are useful when the explanation is immediately given, because then you can see nuances of the teaching within the parable. The problem for the non-disciples is that Jesus never explained his parables to them, because "unto them it was not given." If you notice the pattern by which Jesus taught he would say "The kingdom of God is like this" then "the kingdom of God is like that." One after the other, but no explanation.
So, if I look to common knowledge of that time for an explanation, I might accidentally fall into the same understanding as those who crucified Christ. I may have no more understanding of what he was really talking about than they did.
For example, If "kick the bucket" was a common idiom for "die," and I didn't want to give my meaning to the larger crowd, I might use the phrase "kick the bucket" but not mean what they think I meant. The word "kick" might have a specific meaning and same with "bucket" so in that way, I might be talking about "life" while they think I mean "death."
All true.
So there are 3 ways to handle problems:
a] Do nothing because we are (likely) not given to understand. --> End of many studies.
b] Sola Scripture --> Very often a dead end if the reader doesn't inject opinions on what it should mean. Simply because there are to many uncertainties to reach a Sola Scriptura conclusion.
c] External sources with the advantages I pointed out and the dangers you pointed out.
QuoteSo, if I look to common knowledge of that time for an explanation, I might accidentally fall into the same understanding as those who crucified Christ.
I'm not sure about what to think about that Seth. Possibly Jesus was crucified because of misunderstandings as you said.
Maybe it was because they hated to lose their position of authority.
QuoteI may have no more understanding of what he was really talking about than they did.
We have far less 'feeling' for that society as those who lived in it. That's a big disadvantage for us.
OTOH We have access to the complete teaching most Jews merely heard fragments of Jesus teachings because He travelled a lot and many just heard part of His teaching that day.
:dontknow:
Yes, I think external sources are fine as well. Personally, since Jesus himself said that he had no intention for them to understand his message, and that such a thing reveals that the only reason they followed him was for physical miracles, I think discovering meaning from what God says a symbol means has great strength. The reason is because Jesus told the pharisees that they didn't know the scriptures, and that the scriptures were revealing the truth.
If they didn't know the scriptures, and they had practically memorized them, then how well did the rest of the people know them? Not at all either. Yet, they all knew their own idioms. That suggests to me that reading the Bible is not the same as knowing what it says, that a treasure trove of answers exist there and have not been understood by people who have intimate knowledge.
So, if I have a choice between "hail and fire" as being an idiom with a commonly known meaning, while knowing that none of the Jews understood the scripture, and the scripture makes a connection to "hail and fire" being God's voice, I lean to the scriptural understanding more than the common understanding.
I lean toward the notion that Jesus was hiding his mysteries in the scriptures, and didn't want a certain people knowing what they were. If he spoke in idioms so that they knew, Jesus would have been contradicting his purpose.
That's all just a long way of saying that if an idiom explanation contradicts a scriptural explanation, in such a way that the former causes disharmony to the rest of scripture, I will lean to the latter.
Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2013, 09:52:41 PM
Yes, I think external sources are fine as well. Personally, since Jesus himself said that he had no intention for them to understand his message,
While He said that I wonder how we should understand it. It sounds like: All I do is waste my breath while teaching.
I think that can't be the meaning. Maybe in during the years He lived; but also right now?
QuoteJesus told the pharisees that they didn't know the scriptures, and that the scriptures were revealing the truth.
If they didn't know the scriptures, and they had practically memorized them, then how well did the rest of the people know them? Not at all either. Yet, they all knew their own idioms. That suggests to me that reading the Bible is not the same as knowing what it says,
I think it does, but mankind is very skilled at wrong interpretations.
Add to that the complete law they followed at that time was very flawed. It was God's law combined with truckloads of manmade laws to 'improve' Gods law. So assume some people during His ministry knew the law 100% and followed it 100%. But, say, 70% is manmade junk laws that at times even contradict God's laws. So they knew it all but their real problem was that the knew/followed more than what was good for them. And so by obeying the full law they drifted away from the real law. Does that make sense....? :doh:
QuoteSo, if I have a choice between "hail and fire" as being an idiom with a commonly known meaning, while knowing that none of the Jews understood the scripture, and the scripture makes a connection to "hail and fire" being God's voice, I lean to the scriptural understanding more than the common understanding.
That should always be the case Seth. I just wonder if it's even possible to have full Scriptual understanding because our thoughts patterns are greatly influenced by education, society and other matters. It's not without reason ETs seem doom an gloom in every verse. Even the ones that make you cheer.
QuoteI lean toward the notion that Jesus was hiding his mysteries in the scriptures, and didn't want a certain people knowing what they were. If he spoke in idioms so that they knew, Jesus would have been contradicting his purpose.
But I think His purpose was that at some time all those nice idioms would be understood.
Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2013, 09:58:38 PM
That's all just a long way of saying that if an idiom explanation contradicts a scriptural explanation, in such a way that the former causes disharmony to the rest of scripture, I will lean to the latter.
That much I already wrote. Fill gaps not contradict.
BTW an idiom is Scripture too. It's interpretation hasn't to be.
....all of life is a metaphor, but I think most would say it's also literal.. a great lesson this chewing on the fruit of knowing good from evil.. a very important lesson.. and what is the best teacher?
God's 'judgements'/wrath surely(?) is another way of saying consequences & results.. man cannot learn by metaphor alone (imo)
"hail and fire mingled with blood" - is surely?? also Rev 13:13 which (imo) first occurred in 1945 (maN's splitting of the atom) then has been paused for some time while many are sealed on their foreheads,
Rev7:1+
{...imo, metaphor alone, will keep UR tiny/unaccepted, better to believe the Word then try to twist it unrecognizable only a very few could ever bend their heads around it.. "life is simple but man invents many inventions" Ecclesiastes}
:Chinscratch: Who can prevent God's will? He will have all to be reconciled.. same process for all, and summed up driven home in an intense (and very long, surely?) day of review/judgment
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2013, 12:34:15 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2013, 09:52:41 PM
Yes, I think external sources are fine as well. Personally, since Jesus himself said that he had no intention for them to understand his message,
While He said that I wonder how we should understand it. It sounds like: All I do is waste my breath while teaching.
I think that can't be the meaning. Maybe in during the years He lived; but also right now?
I think you and I are pretty similar in understanding.
To answer your question, I think not necessarily right now. In fact, I think the reason Jesus had no intention of being understood had to do with this:
Matthew 10:27
There is NOTHING
concealed that will not be
disclosed, or
hidden that will not be made
known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
Jesus never had to hide anything if he didn't want to, but he definitely had a purpose in doing so. I believe that Jesus was doing this to give his disciples the gift of healing in a much deeper way than physical healing: spiritual healing.
Nothing is more frightening than the idea of being bound hand and foot and thrown into literal fire, but when a disciple like James comes along and says that the fire is representative of a life led by sin and the destruction therein (James 3:4-6), I think he is speaking in the daylight what Jesus spoke in the dark. Jesus never interpreted Gehenna that way. He never really explained it at all. But James gives us a direct interpretation which, while cause for warning, also releases all fear of physical fire. The warning is to not let our members (hands and feet etc) be defiled by sin.
Seeing that the Apostles are speaking in the daylight, what Jesus spoke in the dark, Maybe the best place to find idiom meanings would therefore be in the epistles, not necessarily the four gospels. The best people to explain Jesus' sayings, are his followers.
...feet that greatly love to wander from following Him..hands that repent not of their own works
[that man creates idols to bow down to 'images'..the work of his hands..and does not glorify God for the
works of His[my own right arme will work salvation/Jesus sat at the right hand of God..after
doing the works of His Father for the redemption of all men] Jesus is the right aarm of God and
the Holy spirit sits on His left...you will see God in between them...the true God Revealed of
his son and the Holy spirit[thou shalt make no carven image of God to bow down to him]
God reveals himself between the two cherubs...His right arm and left arm are the covering
cherubs..and one with Him to gather you into His bosom..and carry you close to His heart.......
...prodigal sons of Adam are hugged.....His son which was dead[all in Adam] are welcomed home
they will not see unless the Son/Holy spirit open their eyes/ears..or the shroud[prince
of this world that blinds them] is removed...........in order that the election depend on the will
of God and not man. He does this so that no flesh can boast.....thus harlots tax-collectors
sinners,and the worst of the sinners enter first[seeking the lost] He chose the weakest
the despized..in order to put the strong and exalted to shame. so know this..
Quote from: Seth on November 07, 2013, 06:24:26 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2013, 12:34:15 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2013, 09:52:41 PM
Yes, I think external sources are fine as well. Personally, since Jesus himself said that he had no intention for them to understand his message,
While He said that I wonder how we should understand it. It sounds like: All I do is waste my breath while teaching.
I think that can't be the meaning. Maybe in during the years He lived; but also right now?
I think you and I are pretty similar in understanding.
To answer your question, I think not necessarily right now. In fact, I think the reason Jesus had no intention of being understood had to do with this:
Matthew 10:27
There is NOTHING concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
Jesus never had to hide anything if he didn't want to, but he definitely had a purpose in doing so. I believe that Jesus was doing this to give his disciples the gift of healing in a much deeper way than physical healing: spiritual healing.
Nothing is more frightening than the idea of being bound hand and foot and thrown into literal fire, but when a disciple like James comes along and says that the fire is representative of a life led by sin and the destruction therein (James 3:4-6), I think he is speaking in the daylight what Jesus spoke in the dark. Jesus never interpreted Gehenna that way. He never really explained it at all. But James gives us a direct interpretation which, while cause for warning, also releases all fear of physical fire. The warning is to not let our members (hands and feet etc) be defiled by sin.
Seeing that the Apostles are speaking in the daylight, what Jesus spoke in the dark, Maybe the best place to find idiom meanings would therefore be in the epistles, not necessarily the four gospels. The best people to explain Jesus' sayings, are his followers.
It is intentional mistranslation of Gehenna as hell that has distorted the concept of both. I don't believe the purpose of Gehenna is the fear of being thrown into "literal fire" alive. It is the disgrace of having one's corpse discarded there after execution. The "literal fire" is used to consume the rotting flesh.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
"Gehenna, the valley of the son of Hinnom, just below the city of Jerusalem, where idolatrous worship was once carried on and where the city offal was burned, will once more become the incinerator for Jerusalem. In the kingdom it will consume the carcasses of criminals as well as the rubbish of the city. It should not be confounded with the unseen, or hades, which is often translated "hell", or with tartarus, similarly translated. Neither is it the lake of fire (Un.20:14), which follows the great white throne judgment for the wicked. Its operation is confined to the temporal judgments of the millennial kingdom. It does not fix ultimate destiny, for it disappears long before the consummation." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 16)
QuoteIt is intentional mistranslation of Gehenna as hell that has distorted the concept of both. I don't believe the purpose of Gehenna is the fear of being thrown into "literal fire" alive. It is the disgrace of having one's corpse discarded there after execution. The "literal fire" is used to consume the rotting flesh.
Yes, there is an intentional mistranslation which leads to a whole mess of doctrine. On the other hand, without that mistranslation, one can still come to the wrong ideas. Jesus never mentions Gehenna when he says that those who attend the wedding feast wearing the wrong robes will be bound hand and foot and thrown into the fire. We can make those connections in scripture, but Jesus never explains it himself and that is the point. The Apostles do explain it. The things that Peter and Paul wrote about God's wrath agree with James' interpretation as well.
To interpret Christ's words with an unconverted mind will never allow anyone to know the will of God (Romans 12:2). So, even without the mistranslation, the carnal mind can lead to false doctrine. This is why I don't go along with what either the Greek or the Jews understood in their own day. To me, it's more important to know what Jesus really meant rather than assuming what they would have understood.
1 Cor 2
6Howbeit
WE speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I agree "it's more important to know what Jesus really meant rather than assuming what they would have understood." We just disagree on "what Jesus really meant."
Quote from: TomI agree "it's more important to know what Jesus really meant rather than assuming what they would have understood." We just disagree on "what Jesus really meant."
I try to take what he meant from those who "spoke in the daylight" what Jesus "spoke in the dark," from those he gave his ministry to spread to the world.
Brother, I think there are as many interpretations of scripture as there students of scripture. I think everybody on this site has a unique perspective. It seems we all agree that Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, and reconciled all on earth and in the heavens to God. We're all ambassadors of conciliation, but we have some differences in our understanding of scripture. Some day I guess we'll all find out how accurate our knowledge of scripture was, but I think the important thing is to herald the word. Preach the evangel. Some things in scripture are obviously debatable regarding literal or figurative interpretation. I'm not here to tell anybody they're right or wrong because I think the only authority is God. We have the word of God to reveal truth to us, but everybody perceives things differently. You told me before that you have a different interpretation of Gehenna than I do. I accept that. There are other folks on this site who have different interpretations of some things than I do, and I accept that. I'm not looking for proselytes. I just come here to share holy spirit with my brothers and sisters with the full realization that we don't all agree on everything, but we have enough in common to fellowship together because at least we all agree that God is the savior of all mankind.
I don't have disagreement with anything you just said. :iagree:
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2013, 08:43:31 PM
Brother, I think there are as many interpretations of scripture as there students of scripture. I think everybody on this site has a unique perspective. It seems we all agree that Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, and reconciled all on earth and in the heavens to God. We're all ambassadors of conciliation, but we have some differences in our understanding of scripture. Some day I guess we'll all find out how accurate our knowledge of scripture was, but I think the important thing is to herald the word. Preach the evangel. Some things in scripture are obviously debatable regarding literal or figurative interpretation. I'm not here to tell anybody they're right or wrong because I think the only authority is God. We have the word of God to reveal truth to us, but everybody perceives things differently. You told me before that you have a different interpretation of Gehenna than I do. I accept that. There are other folks on this site who have different interpretations of some things than I do, and I accept that. I'm not looking for proselytes. I just come here to share holy spirit with my brothers and sisters with the full realization that we don't all agree on everything, but we have enough in common to fellowship together because at least we all agree that God is the savior of all mankind.
I gree with what your saying Tom as well
We only have our ''lot '' what gives us to walk out
If it be walking in the Spiirt or walking in the flesh it all still MUST be walked out, to Know and understand Gods will and ways for all of us . many are called to suffer in doing whats right or wrong in His sight