Democracy or Theocracy?

[jabcat]

Does anyone here understand what I'm trying to get across..?

Love to all,
Bri

Are you in essence saying "Pray for our leaders/government, render to Caesar...".  But don't become entangled with the world (systems), ...."looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10)?  That's my view.  Keeping our eyes on the prize...and it won't be forced, it will be lived and given according to God's will/plan.  God's blessing.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

My picture of things is such:
Theocracy is God leading man. Each man is to be led by the Spirit of God. Each one of us has abilities, talents, and gifts which enable the whole to function.
The man who believes in Christ follows the Sheperd, not a politician. Politicians, as far as what I've seen in the world, don't follow the Sheperd because they don't hear His voice.
That's why I don't vote. God is my King; He has shown Himself to me and if I choose to follow another I know that I am not following Him.

That is why I am interested in communes. Molly can't understand what I'm saying because she is looking at man-based systems.

When we get our eyes on Jesus, our love comes alive, and we are interested in the welfare of our brother and sister. Politicians all interested in themselves. I have not seen and do not expect to see regenerated leaders. Because true leaders are servants. Where are the servants today?

Theocracy is a group of people who listen to the voice of God. If your eyes are on Jesus, you cannot be deceived by man-made systems.

Bri

[jabcat]

Got'cha, and I agree.  I would have to think about the communes part.  If it were truly a work of God, based on truth, led by the Spirit, I would look at it.  I think there's been so much craziness in the name of God, and so often associated with communal living, it's probably a little scary for many.  Not that it would be wrong if truly God-led.  Maybe would work for some, not for others.  And no, these world systems aren't going to be OK until God fixes them...and He may work through us in some ways to do that, I don't know.  In the meantime, we are to follow Him, wherever that leads and whatever He asks us to do.  God's blessing.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Yes, and maybe there are others here too who understand what I'm saying. In fact, I haven't discovered anything new. There have been many Christian communes created in the States, and if I move back at some point, I think I'd seriously look into living in one. Because although they aren't perfect, I find them more in line with what the Spirit of God has shown me than what I see in present day governments.

What scares me is to meet believers who promote capitialism, investing in stock markets, capital punishment and gun possession (while at the same time protesting against abortion...!).

It's just weird.

Here in Italy, even though most people are catholics, and not "practising," 9 out of 10 will tell you that capital punishment and owning guns is not right. (And they aren't even regenerated!!")


bri

[hopeful]

I would have to think about the communes part.  If it were truly a work of God, based on truth, led by the Spirit, I would look at it. 

Same here... 

Community living used to be a fascination of mine.  I have lived communally and semi- communally and there was always too much control of man and not enough being led of the Spirit of God.  I also know many former Hutterite and Amish people who tried to live semi- communally by set rules and let me tell you, we could all tell some really ugly stories.   :mshock:  There always ends up being a man in charge who doesn't handle that charge well and people end up living by laws instead of love.

I think whenever we try to duplicate something that seemed to work for others instead of truly being led of the Lord for our own lives, we can get into a whole different batch of problems than the ones we're trying to steer clear from.

I'm not saying that there isn't a group that has "successfully" lived in some sort of communal way, I just haven't seen or heard of it but instead I've consistently seen the opposite.   :HeartThrob:

My  :2c:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hopeful:

I'm glad you pitched in here because you have lived the experience.

My question to you is: is the fact that some people fall into fleshly desires within the communal setting a reason to stop living it? Wouldn't that be the same as Christians needing to leave their faith because of the failings of Christendom?

I think it is a good way to live. At the same time, I don't negate the imperfections in it. However, those imperfections don't mean that I have to turn to other forms of government which are even more corrupt! It just means I have to work harder at walking in love and peace with my neighbor. And living communally is I believe a good Christian place to start.

In some ways, I admire the Amish more than the average "mainstream churches!"

bri

[Molly]

I think I'm hearing what you're saying, and I'm rejecting it.

There will be a 'theocracy,' I believe, on the return of Jesus.

And Jesus will be the head of the government.

Until then, our government is run by men, and this world is run by satan.

I feel I have the best govt right now--a Republic--which makes allowances for that fact.

One can certainly live communally within a Republic, in small groups,  if that is their choice.

That's why I mentioned Koresh--he led a theocratic commune.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Molly:

My world isn't run by satan.

Love,
Bri

[Molly]

Neither is mine, Bri.

But the one I live in--is.

[hopeful]

Hopeful:

I'm glad you pitched in here because you have lived the experience.

My question to you is: is the fact that some people fall into fleshly desires within the communal setting a reason to stop living it?

No, the Lord has us do some hard things sometimes.  The key for me is to do what the Lord is leading me to do.

:HeartThrob:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Molly:
Isn't it strange how we see the world so differently? For you, it is run by satan. For me, it is run by God!

You see God as ruling when He comes back to earth. I see God as ruling in the hearts of people today! (theocracy)

You see external governments as plausible. I see internal government as the only solution!

When you think of communes, you think of Koresh. I think of the equality of man, part of God's plan.


Oh, well...!

Love,
Bri

[Molly]

...all men are created equal...

Our founders thought that, too.

I don't disagree as much as you think I do.

I know the world is run by satan because I can see clearly the evil men do and it rips my heart out every day.

But, I also know that God rules in the hearts of many and that number is actually increasing in front of my eyes.

I pray for the increase--in that, I also agree, the only solution is internal.

As for Koresh, I find nothing wrong with his commune per se---his was a theocratic commune and you said you wanted a theocracy and a commune---so there you go.  Because a theocracy implies a leader who claims to be divinely inspired and if that is what you want, you will get leaders like Koresh, or worse, much worse, Huckabee lol.

But, I am happy with my Republic, and hope others will understand what they have, a wonderful gift from God,  and not sell it to satan for a bowl of pottage.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

A theocracy means that it is God who is the leader. You keep referring to men as leaders. But I'm talking about GOD doing the leading. Look to Jesus, and HE will lead you!

As believers, that is what we should be doing: following our Leader. Not getting caught up in man's business.


By the way, America was built on blood and deception. The idea that "anyone who wants to can make it big" is a lie. I saw it on the streets everyday. And I want no part of that lie.

Bri

[Molly]

A theocracy means that it is God who is the leader. You keep referring to men as leaders. But I'm talking about GOD doing the leading. Look to Jesus, and HE will lead you!

As believers, that is what we should be doing: following our Leader. Not getting caught up in man's business.


By the way, America was built on blood and deception. The idea that "anyone who wants to can make it big" is a lie. I saw it on the streets everyday. And I want no part of that lie.

Bri

Again, since it must be played out in this world, a theocracy is played out by men who claim to be divinely inspired.  And, then, what do you end up with?  David Koresh if you are lucky, the Inquisition if you are not.

Yes there are many lies about America, but our original Constitution is not one of them.  You will miss it when it's gone--if you can't keep it.


"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross"

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Molly:
I really wish you could understand what I am saying.

Bri

[benwel]

When one comes to Christ, it is theocracy through democracy.

"Come unto me all you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest."


When he sets you free, it becomes democracy through theocracy.

"He who believes in the son is free indeed."


It in fact is both. There doesn't have to be an either\or in God because with him all things are possible.

[Molly]

Molly:
I really wish you could understand what I am saying.

Bri

well, I'm not sure I'm misunderstanding you. I'm trying to understand.  Don't you yearn for what we all yearn for?


Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Rev 20
6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


Here we have Christ reigning with his priests for one thousand years.

Is that the 'theocracy' you long for?

But Mike Huckabee, who must surely be a pathological liar since he lied to millions of people on national tv, is not Christ, no matter how much he might pretend to be.

There is a gap still between man and God.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Well, to answer both posts, I would say that theocracy means that God is who we follow. That means that no other form of government is desirable. Man can invent lots of ways to do things, but they all fall short of God's direction.

Personally, I'm not looking for a leader here or there that will suddenly appear. My Leader is already in my heart, and I wonder why many believers today run here and there to listen to people who they think will lead them. Christ in us will lead us when we hear His voice. Isn't that what Christianity is all about?

Bri

[fire walker]

 :flamebreath:

I think I'm hearing what you're saying, and I'm rejecting it.

There will be a 'theocracy,' I believe, on the return of Jesus.

And Jesus will be the head of the government.

Until then, our government is run by men, and this world is run by satan.

I feel I have the best govt right now--a Republic--which makes allowances for that fact.

One can certainly live communally within a Republic, in small groups,  if that is their choice.

That's why I mentioned Koresh--he led a theocratic commune.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Reverend Jim Jones is another example
of run a away commune, years ago
i was acquainted with someone who
just barely managed to escape the religious clutches of Jim Jones right before his Church went to Guyana for a supposed place of retreat from this world so they could live in a theocratic commune apart from the worldly system and then came the Jones town
masacre.

Fire Walker

[watchman1706]

Yes, but it's not really a realistic point.

A theocracy with the nature of God leading us for our betterment is one thing.

A theocracy with 1 person and their carnal nature would be terrible. It is the root of egomaniacs, dictators and despots and history is full of it.

Theocracy will only work when the works of man and the carnal is destroyed. Until then, we should do the best we can.

Democracy is also corrupt, but there are ususally some checks and balances built in. A theocracy would have none. Or have you forgotten 'Il Duce'"?

:punish:  :banana: :doh:

[Tom]

I think all human government is corrupted by money, and there won't be a righteous government until Christ returns. He will rule until "the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:24)

[Lazarus Short]

I only care to contribute this to the discussion:

DEMOCRAZY

Sometimes, one word says it all.

[jbertonbounds]

I only care to contribute this to the discussion:

DEMOCRAZY

Sometimes, one word says it all.

Aint it the truth! :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

God offered the Israelites choices. 12 judges, but the people desired a king just like the pagans to rule over them. God was not pleased with this choice, but through democracy the will of the people prevailed over God to set up a theocracy.

[jbertonbounds]

God offered the Israelites choices. 12 judges, but the people desired a king just like the pagans to rule over them. God was not pleased with this choice, but through democracy the will of the people prevailed over God to set up a theocracy.

Does anyone or anything prevail over our god, Yahweh?