Do Local Missionary Work

[Lloyd]

Besides love and faithfulness, Jesus also talked a lot about the need for unity. And the apostles showed in Acts 15 how to achieve unity by consensus. The article on Righteous Government at http://bilib.webs.com shows that all coming to agreement seems to be how God shows His approval of believers' ideas about collaboration. If they don't come to agreement, it's because they have not yet found God's all-loving and all-knowing perspective.

Romans 1:24-27, quoted above, suggests that homosexuality and sexual perversion is sin, but the KJV doesn't say it as explicitly as above. It says sleeping with someone of the same sex is sin. Elsewhere Paul says that drunks and other sinners can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus also said to lust after another person who's not your spouse is a sin.

Sometimes, most people here seem to be willing to admit that we're all sinners, but at other times, like in this thread, many seem to want to think that they're not sinners, but other people are.

Since Jesus wants us to have unity and peace, we need to do that, don't we?

We obviously can't know exactly what God or Jesus considers to be God's word. The Bible says Jesus is our example. See the bilib link above. Most non-Christian bibles include the same morality that Jesus taught. God has reasons for not giving everyone on Earth the same written form of His word. Apparently, He's satisfied that He can give His word directly to anyone with whatever people already have access to. The Bible also says God wants to write His Law or Word in our hearts and minds and elsewhere says what He wants He does. So we don't need bibles to tell us His Word. We only need Him.

So I think we need to be tolerant of our fellow sinners, regardless of their religion or philosophy, if any, and seek unity with anyone who's potentially interested and who believes in not harming anyone.

[JulieTang84]

Julie

As I was going through the thread, I noticed your question to me that I didn't answer: "And one final question: What god are they worshipping that is not sanctioned by Father?"

Without going into a long dissertation about all the different gods they worship, I can say that having fellowship with them is very grievous even though it is well intended by yourself. You have to come outside the Body of Christ to do that. If on the other hand, you are trying to reach them with the Truth who IS Christ then that may or may not be OK. Are you saying that ALLAH (for instance) is the one true God? The devil is very slick and you could end up as a vessel with a mixed cocktail.

The last thing I'd like to offer is, it is wise to heed the counsel of the brethren on such things and if the Amen is there (which I believe it is) you need to open your heart and obey.

I say these things Julie, to you, in love.


Jock   :Pray:

Dear Jock  :HeartThrob: Everything you have said is taken with Love.


I believe every "so called" religion that in "some" way recognizes a single "spirit" that has the greater good for all as their base (this would seem to exclude most of Christianity, but I am not going there) is being used by Father.


Here is my reasoning. There have been perhaps millions of peoples since the advent of Jesus that have NEVER heard of him, let alone any of his teachings. Many will comment on this as such are nothing but heathens fit to be baked in some huge fire. Yet, what father would abandon his children to fend for themselves? A poor father indeed; however, many are so quick to judge our Perfect Loving Father as doing the same. REALLY??  What is perfect or loving in abandonment?


Father is Perfect Love and the great spirit that was/is worshiped by the many American Indian tribes, can we not assume that Father gave these peoples this part of himself for a reason. There are many religions that promote Love and Peace that NEVER new of Jesus. Many say they are evil, but are they?


I really have a hard time with muslims though; thankfully Father judges hearts, because I do not see a lot of fruit worthy of preserving.


But there is a greater question. If Father has provided means for the many foreign religions, is what they practice wrong, if done from a trusting, loving heart in good faith? Also, if they have not been given the ears and eyes to hear and see the truth as given the many here; how can they be wrong. Wrong in whose eyes, certainly not Fathers. Millions of peoples have died not knowing Jesus the man, can we ever be so sure that they NEVER knew Jesus the Christ?


Lastly and perhaps most importantly. What road does NOT lead to Salvation, it is not as if any can escape it, can they. Of what sense is there being a Christian and looking down on all other peoples. Did not the Scribes and Pharisee's do the very same things in Jesus's time? Does not the majority of Christian churches do the same still? Jesus said it was time to worship Father in Spirit, perhaps it is the Christian and Muslim religions that reject this concept the most and persist on the physical.


Yes, the devil is slick, but we must always look within before we ever look without. Come out of her, we were told. Millions were never in her, millions will never leave. Up is down and White is black.


The last shall become first and the first shall be last.
   
Mat 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.  (Lest we forget)

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Jock]

Julie and Lloyd

I offer a two verses, John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels

It sounds like you have both made up your minds. A long time ago, I lived in Oregon and there was a Unity church right across the street from us. Right above the front door was the Eye of Horus or "The all seeing eye". I did go to a Unity meeting once and to find that they teach Metaphysics, exit stage left!

I don't think myself better than those folks nor do I think I'm a Pharisee?? I'm just very grateful that my Lord Jesus Christ is in my heart, spirit and mind.

Take care

Jock.  :Chinscratch:

[dajomaco]

    I look at the Spirit of Love   as being balanced    and whom God loves He corrects also 

I believe that the cross of Jesus Christ is a very critical   part that must be  our foundational truth   to build upon 

Amen rose.  Here's how I personally understand it.  I don't believe "love" does away with the rest of the whole counsel of God.  I believe to love includes seeking and following the teachings of God - with His help, all of it - with the leading, empowering, and enablement of the Holy Spirit.  I also believe it will show kindness, do good to others, and turn the other cheek and forgive; but also be willing to speak the truth.  And after lovingly as led, speaking the truth, rather than encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such, will pray for someone's deliverance from their sin and support and encourage them in that process.  Jesus and the early church were about deliverance and victory, not the current form of "acceptance" and "affirming".  And that was/is loving, or the scriptures are wrong or unimportant (which they're not).

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears...

encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such,
To be concerned about other peoples sin.
IS SIN
The only people who encourage open rebellious sin are Christians.
There uncaring attitude is anathema to GOD. 

GOD is not Mocked.

Jabcat every time you sin it is open and rebellious.

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

[JulieTang84]

Julie and Lloyd

I offer a two verses, John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels

It sounds like you have both made up your minds. A long time ago, I lived in Oregon and there was a Unity church right across the street from us. Right above the front door was the Eye of Horus or "The all seeing eye". I did go to a Unity meeting once and to find that they teach Metaphysics, exit stage left!

I don't think myself better than those folks nor do I think I'm a Pharisee?? I'm just very grateful that my Lord Jesus Christ is in my heart, spirit and mind.

Take care

Jock.  :Chinscratch:

Just as He is in mine Jock. There is such a peace, Love and understanding that is as calming as a sea breeze and as warm as snuggly blanket. I do not see myself better than anyone, not even the worst of the worst. Because I truly know, that there is nothing that I did on my own that has granted me the Love and Peace I am now.


My mantra is: I am Love, I am Peace and I am Light.


My sole purpose is spread the fruits of the Spirit of Love in all I do. I feel no animosity towards no person, object or thing. I ask Father only one thing and that is too always be the strongest beacon of His light that I can be.


I do not profess to be smart or wise, but if I can encourage anyone to do anything, it is to be still and know that Father is God. I just believe that millions have been doing this since the beginning of time.


You may say that I have made my mind up. However, I am honest enough to see our Father as the Perfect Father. I see him HATING none of his children, because to Hate them, he must hate himself because all are of Him through our Lord Jesus Christ. All were created in His image, I have simply been given to see all as Fathers children, all in need of Love and all of the fruits of Love.


You take care too Jock,


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

"5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

God will vivify all mankind, but only some are chosen to be vivified for eonian life. The rest will not be tortured alive in fire. They will be dead, reposing, until the consummation of the eons when they too will be vivified.

Those who die as unbelievers will see Christ at the great white throne before they die the second death. So even they will come to the Father through Christ by sight not by faith. The dead are not conscious of anything. The very next thing they know after they die will be that they are alive again, and God will be all in all.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[marie glen]

...no process of repentance and the passing away of the outer man with renewal of the inner man?

More and more I believe the Holy Feast Days of ancient Israel portrayed / prophesied the two advents of Jesus.. with Day of Atonement(DOA) being a long day of that very process of repentance and the passing away/dying of the outer man with renewal of the inner man, for the 2nd resurrection..

I believe all things our Father does (with man and in the sight of man) has, and is, an important teaching lesson.. this seems very logical to me..
       :Chinscratch: :icon_jokercolor:

[JulieTang84]

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

Dajomaco, I feel exactly the same way. To focus on the shortcomings of the world is nothing more than focusing on the failure of Christ of FORGIVING all sins.


If they are forgiven, why should "I" have to worry about them. I shouldn't unless someone else's well being is being threatened. How little faith would I have if all I see is the sins of the world. I choose to see the goodness and the Love that is everywhere. Love covers a multitude of sin, not sin, a multitude of love.


FAITH - That Father's Will will be Done on His Time
HOPE - That greets me each morning and is with as I sleep each night
LOVE - All that I Father has given me and All that He has given everyone. All that He is.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

...no process of repentance and the passing away of the outer man with renewal of the inner man?

More and more I believe the Holy Feast Days of ancient Israel portrayed / prophesied the two advents of Jesus.. with Day of Atonement(DOA) being a long day of that very process of repentance and the passing away/dying of the outer man with renewal of the inner man, for the 2nd resurrection..

I believe all things our Father does (with man and in the sight of man) has, and is, an important teaching lesson.. this seems very logical to me..
       :Chinscratch: :icon_jokercolor:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html

[rosered]

 

Dear Daj

Not   for a minute do  we think ourselves righteous , not self righteous 
Its not fair to  judge anyone
  But   I know for a fact  after reading many scriptures  , God puts it in our hearts   to warn    all of us   to repent , change our minds   before any coming judgment is set on a  person , city or country  , The bible is  full of many  mistreated    souls whom  perished   warning  all that they themselves are being judged along with the rest of the  rebellious  ones !

  But they escaped the  wrath of God

Your right God is not mocked 
  and what do you think Jesus meant when He said , I will come to you suddenly and fight against them with the SWORD OF MY MOUTH ?  Rev 2 :16
  praying for one another is key to   GOD forgiving  trespass 
I know when the fiery trials come upon my own life , I now know its God chastening me , not the devil /adversary      and need for a change of heart
Only a fool would think they are not going to be judged , judgment begins in the house of God  first !
there is NO condemnation to those who are  found hidden in Jesus  Christ , but making sure you are hid in Christ  and not some other    Jesus  or gospel ! there is no other foundation to be laid  but  Jesus Christ  ,  thats the whole point in a nutshell .

encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such,
To be concerned about other peoples sin.
IS SIN
The only people who encourage open rebellious sin are Christians.
There uncaring attitude is anathema to GOD. 

GOD is not Mocked.

Jabcat every time you sin it is open and rebellious.

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

[jabcat]

encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such,
To be concerned about other peoples sin.
IS SIN
The only people who encourage open rebellious sin are Christians.
There uncaring attitude is anathema to GOD. 

GOD is not Mocked.

Jabcat every time you sin it is open and rebellious.

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

How do you know I sin?  Just kidding.   :laughing7:

Some of this is in direct response to your post(s), some of it to others - some of it to myself.

No one has said love's bad, or even that it's not paramount.  Let's all try to keep things in accurate perspective.  However, there's much more to reality than just hugging everybody (literally/figuratively), and I believe much else is being ignored in this discussion.  I DON'T believe we should be sin-focused, nor that we should judge others and go around picking at their sins and giving them a hard time over it.  We should be JESUS-focused.   However, OTOH,  it's NOT "sin" to be aware of what the scriptures teach as sin, tell that truth in love when the opportunity arises and we're truly led to, and try to help people overcome anything they/we need help with. IMO, that is indeed loving - when done in the right attitude and for the right reasons - to be obedient to God and restore others (and ourselves when we need it) to the kingdom.     When Jesus was around people, He ministered to them, telling them the truth ("My Words judge them"), delivered, and admonished them to sin no more.  Also reference all of Paul's admonitions to the ecclesia.  There's a lot of slandering of Christians, and some of it earned.  However, much of its not, and is simply mockery.    If Jesus or Paul entered into a group of people who were blatantly promoting and overlooking the fact that many in that group worshiped Mohammed, Buddha, or generally rejected Him in various ways - and vehemently and openly taught that things clearly against the scriptures didn't matter and sin was OK, we just needed to be nice to each other and it would all work out - honestly, what are we shown in scriptures they would do?  (Love them, YES - what else?).   

I believe it's prudent to recognize the difference between someone struggling, failing, and their flesh sinning - which even the strongest believers do (of which I am not), vs. someone hardening their heart, continuing unrepentant in their sin, and searing their conscience as Paul describes.  And then being turned over to the lusts of their flesh, suffer the consequences by being destroyed by it.  And further, then an organization, group of people, or even an individual, putting their stamp of approval on that behavior, encouraging them, and sharing in their deceit by teaching there's nothing wrong with it and sitting in "fellowship" in their presence - in direct opposition to the scriptures "How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!."  Psalm 1:1   (do we just "love" such scriptures and admonitions away, a.k.a., ignore them?)    That's what I'm discussing and pointing out in this thread.  I often am unable to, but I also think it's important to use scriptures in context and rightly divided.   Now, I need to spend the day, with His help because that's the only way it can be done, loving those with whom I disagree.  :)

[rosered]

...no process of repentance and the passing away of the outer man with renewal of the inner man?

More and more I believe the Holy Feast Days of ancient Israel portrayed / prophesied the two advents of Jesus.. with Day of Atonement(DOA) being a long day of that very process of repentance and the passing away/dying of the outer man with renewal of the inner man, for the 2nd resurrection..

I believe all things our Father does (with man and in the sight of man) has, and is, an important teaching lesson.. this seems very logical to me..
       :Chinscratch: :icon_jokercolor:

I am convinced   of this too Marie !
  we do  all judge one another and    are instruments  in   the LOrds hands   the left and right hands of power

this is why its said blessed is he who is in the  first ressurection  ,  for the 2nd death holds no power over them !

  what power are we  talking about  exactly
  for me its always been being found dead  in Christ   and Christ will raise you up  into His Body
  the warning of the  7 churches always had an effect on me personally
   when we get to a lukewarm  state of being  , are are judged as being  spued out of His mouth
  making us  prey with no help , out on your own so to speak

And its  a horrible  condition to not be  in the world anylonger nor in Christ either  , making us a twice dead  and useless    situation  , thats just scary to me 

  I do believe Gods word is a Sword/ Word and Spirit   that cuts  deep  both ways  into the soul and spirit in ALL mankind   and His judgments are just and fair

  God always warned  by sending someone to warn first before inpending doom/judgment     , He sent His Son last to wrap it all up quickly    .

       

[jabcat]

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

Dajomaco, I feel exactly the same way. To focus on the shortcomings of the world is nothing more than focusing on the failure of Christ of FORGIVING all sins.


If they are forgiven, why should "I" have to worry about them. I shouldn't unless someone else's well being is being threatened. How little faith would I have if all I see is the sins of the world. I choose to see the goodness and the Love that is everywhere. Love covers a multitude of sin, not sin, a multitude of love.


FAITH - That Father's Will will be Done on His Time
HOPE - That greets me each morning and is with as I sleep each night
LOVE - All that I Father has given me and All that He has given everyone. All that He is.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Love is great, love is important, love is vital.  As I said a few weeks ago, Julie keep loving - and everyone, including myself - however God TRULY leads - not according to what the world says love is or what our imagination says it is.

Re: the quote, I don't believe everyone's forgiven yet, just as everyone's not saved yet.

IMO, to believe some of the things being said by three members in this thread is ignoring most of the scripture - taking out of context, and picking and choosing what "fits" or has a "good" sound or feeling to it..   :2c:


"worship in Spirit               and truth."     Only with God's help can we do that, but may we be willing.

[JulieTang84]

I don't believe everyone's forgiven yet, just as everyone's not saved yet.  IMO, to believe some of the things being said by three members in this thread is ignoring most of the scripture - taking out of context, and picking and choosing what "fits".   :2c:

I know you do not believe everyone is forgiven, or saved. I do hope you believe this....

Rom 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

Rom 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

James, I see the spirit in which image all are of Christ himself. I do not wish to ever see ONLY the results of a fleshly being born in to sin. To do so is to deny the divinity; regardless, of how tiny it is in all.

Jhn 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Can you please explain why you look down on those that Father has held from Christ?

1 Pet 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Father has chosen some well in advance to be obedient to Jesus Christ, these will NOT speak on their own but Father will give the words through the Spirit of Love and Truth.
   
Mat 10:20
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

What is the big Picture James? What is the endgame? I could careless the many plays that we who are yet bathed in Sin try and ultimately fail. No matter how hard we try, we can do nothing. Even Jesus the man knew that He could do NOTHING on his own.

Jhn 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Now please don't say: "Ha!! HE Judges, so do I!" He was born the perfect man, we into sin. Jesus did not know sin so how much fairer his judgments over ours.

The big picture is that we must Love as Jesus commanded us too. We must Trust in all that we have been given. We must NEVER lean on our own understanding and if we had faith in the amount of a mustard seed we could move mountains. Our Faith is severely lacking, so how could we possibly trust Father to do the right thing?

The EndGame is all standing before the KING and his Son. All having been cleansed and as pure as snow. The Light of Spirit in whose image we all are, will be shining brighter than the brightest star. If such a vision isn't enough to greet everyday and every problem with a smile and a joyous heart then I simply do not know why. We are free James, free from the issues of the world, from stress or worry, free to LOVE as it was in the image of Love we were created.

You may think that I pick and choose through the Scriptures, but I promise you, it is not the journey that has my attention, but the destination. We are coming Home James, let's Love, Laugh and be as Joyous as joy can be in Everything, because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. Nothing matters other than we be the Love that we are, seeking the highest good for all, always.

Fathers will, will be done and that is a given and all will come to the knowledge of the truth. (1Tim 2:4)

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

James,  I do not wish to ever see ONLY the results of a fleshly being born in to sin.

That's good, I agree, and no one's said or is saying any different.  The quoted scriptures of course I agree with as well.  Many of your interpretations and applications, I don't.  And many of mine, you apparently don't.  Mainly, above all, I believe Jesus is the perfect Sacrifice and Savior, the only Way to the Father as the scriptures teach.

I had hopes of some reconciliation.  It looks like we're just going to disagree though on many things - so I'll choose to not keep beating on the same things I personally understand as error, unless they keep being brought up by others (and I do know I have my own areas of error/lack of understanding/ability as well).  If there's a possibility of error though, I believe I should lean toward the scriptures, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed - rather than what is a trap for myself as well as others - on feelings, on my own mind, on what the world says is right, or on just a few scriptures here or there out of context, ignoring the rest that don't feel quite as good or fit our own personal philosophy.  I believe we all, including myself, need continued empowerment, revelation, guidance, understanding, and obedience - as well as, yes, love, joy, and peace - IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. 

[Lloyd]

Who is Saved?
The Bible definitely says Jesus is our example. Obviously, what it means to be saved is to follow his example. Putting all of the Bible quotes together comes to a statement like that: To be saved is to follow Jesus' example of Love toward all.

Many like to talk about "faith" in "Jesus", but the Greek word translated "faith" is actually "faithful". So we're saved by being faithful to following Jesus' example.

Many like to think salvation requires speaking Jesus' name or stating faith in Jesus' name, but the Greek word for "name" actually meant "authority". So it's not his name that's important; it's his authority, which surely means the authority of his faithfulness to the Father, his being/behaving in the Image/Likeness of the Father, which is the Ideal of Love for all.

You don't need to know the Bible or Jesus' name or God's name to be faithful to the authority of God's Love for all. The Bible has certainly helped to teach humanity that truth and that's surely why God made the Bible widely available to much of the world. But God doesn't need anything physical to teach us of His truth. And that must be why He hasn't made the Bible available to everyone.

Therefore, I don't believe those who do not claim to be Christian, but who do follow Jesus' example of Love for all, even if they never heard of Jesus, are saved.

I believe it's just as much a sin to eat too much food (or even to eat for pleasure rather than for health) as it is to engage in a homosexual act or fantasy.

I do support promoting the Bible to the world, because it seems to explain how to follow Jesus' example better than does any other physical writing. But it's not a basis for judging whether someone is saved or not.

I've never had much fear of God. The word for fear in the Bible is said to mean awe. I do happen to be in awe of God, now and then. I think that being afraid of being punished or left out by not following the letter of the Bible is a sign of distrust of God, which is due to being raised by the traditions of men who wrongly teach fear of God instead of God's Love for all.

[jabcat]

"not needing to know who Jesus is, or calling on Him, or confessing Him, but just following His example ("love for all") means one is saved"..

Multiple scriptures say otherwise. 

[jabcat]

Here are 2 for example;

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.


Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved...

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?

[dajomaco]

or on just a few scriptures here or there out of context, ignoring the rest that don't feel quite as good or fit our own personal philosophy.


When  we can have the notion that we don't have are own personnel philosophy.
But the other guy or gal does. It is already a vortex.

Words and proving words is a game that does not include Love.

I have heard from the pulpit too many times how Christians have a real Love.
The other religions have a world love or man love or emotion love.

There is ONE GOD ONE LOVE.

We look for proofs of this real love.
God gave us proof his SON.

Every one who belongs to one of the major world religions
Judaism
Christianity
Muslim
Buddhist.

To sit in any of these temples or cathedrals.
Means absolutely nothing.
It is important what is going on in the sitters mind and heart.

I have never met a person at a Christian church who believed what Jesus said
That to look upon a women and lust is sin.(  the same sin as homo sin)

Each church has it's own philosophy as to the order and rank of sin.

They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving,[t] and unmerciful.

If we allowed one hundred people in our church.

No Gays allowed 4or 5%.      We have 95 peoples left in church
No Greed allowed                   We have  20 peoples left in church
No murders allowed                 We have 99 peoples left in church
No quarrels allowed                 We have 1 peoples left in church.
No deceit  allowed                   We have 25 peoples left in church
No malice allowed                   We have 36 peoples left in church.
No gossip allowed                    We have 2 peoples left in church.

My point is that we all have our personnel philosophy when it comes to SIN
This worlds wisdom says there are degrees of Sin and there are degrees of punishment.
This is a philosophy that every rational mind can agree with.

I am trying to put on the irrational mind of Christ.
To see sin is easy.
I believe that Gods spirit sees something entirely different.
While we were dead spiritually that was when we attracted the Spirit of God.
 

[jabcat]

"When  we can have the notion that we don't have are own personnel philosophy.
But the other guy or gal does."


No one has said anything like this.  I used the word "our".  Believe me, I've done it, but I do believe it's best to not just imagine things or make them up as we go.  That's what the scriptures are for. It sorrows me that apparently too many have less than an appropriate use/respect for them.
------------


"I have heard from the pulpit too many times how Christians have a real Love.
The other religions have a world love or man love or emotion love."

I guess if other so-called "holy" books were just as relevant and Spirit-breathed as the Judeo-Christian scriptures, what you say you've heard from the pulpit could be legitimately disputed.  I haven't read it, but I imagine most of the "holy" books teach some kind of love.  But they don't teach Jesus the Sacrifice and Savior.  There-in lies a crucial difference, and I believe in essence, the scriptures teach that's the starting point.

----------


"Every one who belongs to one of the major world religions
Judaism
Christianity
Muslim
Buddhist.

To sit in any of these temples or cathedrals.
Means absolutely nothing.
It is important what is going on in the sitters mind and heart."



I'm not sure how to answer this, as it doesn't directly address any issues I've personally intended.  I've talked about obvious, organized, promoted, anti-scriptural deceit (or yes, even as individuals as well).   We all err, but not all habitually, uncaringly, unrepentantly sin and teach others to do so;  i.e., being a bastard and/or deceiver, instead of a child of God who is called back in repentance and maintains fellowship.  It's a hard saying, I don't fully understand it, and hits me in the gut.  But John said that person does not know God and is a child of the devil. I John 3:10. 

  Psalm 1:1, as well as many other scriptures regarding mixing light and darkness, what fellowship has light with darkness, etc.?  They still count. :)
--------------------


"I have never met a person at a Christian church who believed what Jesus said
That to look upon a women and lust is sin.  (  the same sin as homo sin)"

Unless you've only gone to totally wacked-out churches, I simply don't believe this.  I'd suggest you just didn't know it - because it's a commonly believed teaching in numerous more conservative (read, "Bible-believing") churches.  I've heard it all my life - literally, for 50 years.   I'm not really talking about "churches" as the focal point anyway.  Again, I'm referencing what do the scriptures say?
----------

"Each church has it's own philosophy as to the order and rank of sin."

:dontknow:  not sure what that has to do with the scriptures.  My main points have not been to talk about "churches".

---------------------

"They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving,[t] and unmerciful.

If we allowed one hundred people in our church.

No Gays allowed 4or 5%.      We have 95 peoples left in church
No Greed allowed                   We have  20 peoples left in church
No murders allowed                 We have 99 peoples left in church
No quarrels allowed                 We have 1 peoples left in church.
No deceit  allowed                   We have 25 peoples left in church
No malice allowed                   We have 36 peoples left in church.
No gossip allowed                    We have 2 peoples left in church."


Again, I'm not sure this directly addresses what I've said.  I've never said sinners shouldn't be allowed in the church.  We all sin.  I'd just reference the difference noted earlier about weakness of the flesh and failing, vs. hardening ones' heart, searing ones' conscience, and deceiving and being deceived - i.e., wolves in sheep's clothing - teaching apostacy and devouring the flock.  Paul described it in detail (Romans, Corinthians, etc.).
-----------------------


"My point is that we all have our personnel philosophy when it comes to SIN
This worlds wisdom says there are degrees of Sin and there are degrees of punishment.
This is a philosophy that every rational mind can agree with.

I am trying to put on the irrational mind of Christ.
To see sin is easy.
I believe that Gods spirit sees something entirely different.
While we were dead spiritually that was when we attracted the Spirit of God."

While we're trying to put something on, I'd just suggest we test it and make sure it's not in direct opposition with the Word of God.   
-----------------


Jesus and Paul would love.  But they also wouldn't stick their head in the sand and hum away the "bad stuff", and they DIDN"T teach that it wasn't important to be aware, watchful, and warn others (while examining ourselves).  So again, besides loving, what else did they say, do, and admonish us to do about sin, deceit, and apostacy?   (Search the scriptures, not relying on our own mind, feelings, or what's popularly said.  The truth is getting less and less popular.  But I believe it needs to be sought, revealed, and then spoken in love.  Grace to you, James.   

[dajomaco]

Who is Saved?
The Bible definitely says Jesus is our example. Obviously, what it means to be saved is to follow his example. Putting all of the Bible quotes together comes to a statement like that: To be saved is to follow Jesus' example of Love toward all.

Many like to talk about "faith" in "Jesus", but the Greek word translated "faith" is actually "faithful". So we're saved by being faithful to following Jesus' example.

Many like to think salvation requires speaking Jesus' name or stating faith in Jesus' name, but the Greek word for "name" actually meant "authority". So it's not his name that's important; it's his authority, which surely means the authority of his faithfulness to the Father, his being/behaving in the Image/Likeness of the Father, which is the Ideal of Love for all.

You don't need to know the Bible or Jesus' name or God's name to be faithful to the authority of God's Love for all. The Bible has certainly helped to teach humanity that truth and that's surely why God made the Bible widely available to much of the world. But God doesn't need anything physical to teach us of His truth. And that must be why He hasn't made the Bible available to everyone.

Therefore, I don't believe those who do not claim to be Christian, but who do follow Jesus' example of Love for all, even if they never heard of Jesus, are saved.

I believe it's just as much a sin to eat too much food (or even to eat for pleasure rather than for health) as it is to engage in a homosexual act or fantasy.

I do support promoting the Bible to the world, because it seems to explain how to follow Jesus' example better than does any other physical writing. But it's not a basis for judging whether someone is saved or not.

I've never had much fear of God. The word for fear in the Bible is said to mean awe. I do happen to be in awe of God, now and then. I think that being afraid of being punished or left out by not following the letter of the Bible is a sign of distrust of God, which is due to being raised by the traditions of men who wrongly teach fear of God instead of God's Love for all.

My definition of saved is probably different that yours.
I was saved from the fruitless effort of trying to please God.
All religions including Christianity profess to teach you how to please God.

Jesus pleased the Father
The Holy Spirit encourages me celebrate that Jesus did for me
what I could not do myself.
I am free. Free to praise God.
I don't praise God to please him.
I praise God that God is already pleased.
Jesus I know pleases God
God is full of Love .So open your receivers and receive.
   

[Lloyd]

So again, besides loving, what else did they say, do, and admonish us to do about sin, deceit, and apostacy?   (Search the scriptures, not relying on our own mind, feelings, or what's popularly said.

The scriptures at the time of Jesus and Paul was the Old Testament. But Jesus said he came not to destroy the Law, the Old Testament, but to fulfill it, where destroy means to teach incorrectly and fulfill means teach correctly. There are hundreds of quotes from the Old Testament in the New Testament, but the New Testament wasn't written for some years after Jesus' death apparently.

Regarding the passages in Acts 16 and Romans 9, I take the phrase "believe in Jesus Christ" to mean "follow his example of Love for all" and the phrase "confess him with your mouth" to mean "speak to others with Love" and when Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to them" I think it means they told them about Jesus' message of Love for all.  We can all say we believe anything, but it's not really believing unless we act on those beliefs. Isn't that why Jesus criticized those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do his commandments?

[jabcat]

So again, besides loving, what else did they say, do, and admonish us to do about sin, deceit, and apostacy?   (Search the scriptures, not relying on our own mind, feelings, or what's popularly said.

Regarding the passages in Acts 16 and Romans 9, I take the phrase "believe in Jesus Christ" to mean "follow his example of Love for all" and the phrase "confess him with your mouth" to mean "speak to others with Love" and when Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to them" I think it means they told them about Jesus' message of Love for all. 

Hi Loyd. IMO, that's a pretty slippery slope.  We could pretty much do that with any scripture, to try to make it all fit what/where we personally want.  "No prophecy of scripture (a divinely inspired utterance, instruction, exhortation, or revelation) is of private interpretation".  2 Peter 1:20   The point being, we best be sure and careful and not play too loosely with it.  But Lloyd, is it accurate to say you don't really rely on the scriptures all that much, or not?  If that's not correct, I apologize, but I'm getting that sense.

As far as "Lord, Lord", no, that's not what I think it "simply" means.  I believe there's more to it than that, including taking into account the whole precept of being saved by grace through the gift of faith to believe Jesus as Savior and Lord as the scriptures teach, rather than by works.

[jabcat]

Isn't that why Jesus criticized those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do his commandments?

To me Lloyd, along with the "saved by grace not works" issue Paul was so adamant about, there's this;  by the theory of "love and you're saved", if someone loved even once, or was kind to someone even once, or said something loving even once, wouldn't that mean they knew Jesus a little bit or were saved a little bit?  What He said in that passage is, "I NEVER knew you".  So according to my understanding, those folks mentioned who come saying "Lord, Lord", were never (yet) given the free gift of faith to believe on Him as Savior, as the Holy Spirit through Paul said we must - thus He never knew them.

[WhiteWings]

Regarding the passages in Acts 16 and Romans 9, I take the phrase "believe in Jesus Christ" to mean "follow his example of Love for all" and the phrase "confess him with your mouth" to mean "speak to others with Love" and when Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to them" I think it means they told them about Jesus' message of Love for all.  We can all say we believe anything, but it's not really believing unless we act on those beliefs. Isn't that why Jesus criticized those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do his commandments?

Lloyd, that's 100% correct but not 100% complete.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Love is core part of Jesus' teachings, I think no one argues otherwise.
Verse 36 states The God needs to be a core part of that love. Not just any god or love without God.
Verse 40 mentions laws that are based on love. Meaning following those laws in an expression of love. What exactly those laws are is a whole new discussion but I assume everyone agrees the laws includes no murder and no theft. Sure murdering  someone isn't an act of love but the law includes less obvious things.
The point is that love in itself isn't always correct. Muslims love allah. But that's not the kind of love Jesus was promoting. ETs love the great justice of God when He roasts billions without an end. But that wasn't the love Jesus was trying to teach.

So.... love most certainly is what it's about, but we need to read all/many verses to understand what God's definition of love is...