Tentmaker Forum

I'd appreciate any ideas on where you think may be the best places to look to find people who may like to help do missionary work with me or others.

I'm thinking of colleges. If that's a good idea, are there guidelines to consider first?

Can we find potential missionaries online anywhere besides here? If so, where and how?

I think the folks in churches need to hear the truth.

How would you approach these "people in churches", Tom?

My idea is to approach their kids at religious colleges. What about that?

I go to a public university, but there are a lot of Christian groups that hand things out. I always take them, just hoping one time someone will be spreading the truth. Someone handed me today a brochure that was titled "God's simple plan of salvation." I read it, and I immediately recognized it from this site http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ which we all know David J Stewart is a false teacher. I talk to my friends about this truth, and some have told me they hope I'm right, and some just don't really seem to care right now. I would really love it if I could meet some like minded people at my school.

Quote from: Lloyd on September 27, 2013, 06:00:22 AM
How would you approach these "people in churches", Tom?

My idea is to approach their kids at religious colleges. What about that?

It seems most so called Christians are church folks with whom you can communicate anywhere anytime the opportunity is made available to you, but be prepared to receive mostly persecution for your efforts because church doctrine is very much opposed to the truth of scripture that God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all on earth and in the heavens to be all in all. I believe folks are mistaken when they assume everybody in the U.S.A. has received the evangel because church doctrine is not the evangel. So I don't think you need to go to some far away place to preach the evangel. You can do it in your own neighborhood and on the Web which reaches much of the world.

Tom, that's my plan, to "preach" locally, but I figure young people of high school to college age would be the most open to receiving the gospel.

Warhawk, where are you located? If I come across any universalists in your area, I could try to introduce you.

Southern Wisconsin

around Racine, Beloit, Janesville, or Jamestown?

How 'bout right here! In the good ole USA!

Anywhere the Spirit leads you.

Yesterday, for me, it was in Bremen, Alabama, when the Lord moved me toward someone who seemed open to listen, and who said he would check it out.  He said he was a lay preacher.  I planted seeds, and I pray the Lord water those seeds.

I have spoken to very few people who have ever even heard of the notion of God being the Savior of all people.  Few know of the two resurrections, or the fact that we will be judged by our deeds, not be whether we believed or not.  Few realize that their bible says that "hell" [death] will be done away with in the end when it is thrown into the lake of fire.  Almost no one really understands the catching up of the overcomers at the return of the Christ.  They don't know their bibles teach that the heaven and earth we know now will be done away with, and a new heaven and earth will be created.  So few people really know many of the fundamental truths that the scriptures give us, although many Christians hold it right in their hands every Sunday.

As far as missionary work goes, America is wide open!  Start where you are.  The Spirit will lead you where he wants you.  And why would he lead you elsewhere, if you aren't already doing it where you are now?

Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 29, 2013, 10:53:57 PM
As far as missionary work goes, America is wide open!  Start where you are.  The Spirit will lead you where he wants you.  And why would he lead you elsewhere, if you aren't already doing it where you are now?

J, I think that's what we've been saying. By the way, how do you distinguish between what the Lord leads you to do and what you lead you to do?

Quote from: Lloyd on September 30, 2013, 02:25:47 AM

Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 29, 2013, 10:53:57 PM
As far as missionary work goes, America is wide open!  Start where you are.  The Spirit will lead you where he wants you.  And why would he lead you elsewhere, if you aren't already doing it where you are now?

J, I think that's what we've been saying. By the way, how do you distinguish between what the Lord leads you to do and what you lead you to do?

Believe me, if you're not sure, He'll let you know in a way that you are sure.
Stay close to Him and trust.

Lloyd, you are trying to come up with ideas of where you can preach. What about, as scripture says, "if somebody ask about your faith" ?

I go out in a state of readiness to share my faith, sometimes the opportunity arises and sometimes not but I am ready in season and out of season.

I don't know about universities in the US, but here in the UK, they are very secular, very Muslim and resistant to the Gospel, but hey, you can try  :dontknow:

May God lead you

Jock.

Quote from: Jock on October 01, 2013, 05:14:54 PM

Lloyd, you are trying to come up with ideas of where you can preach. What about, as scripture says, "if somebody ask about your faith" ?

I go out in a state of readiness to share my faith, sometimes the opportunity arises and sometimes not but I am ready in season and out of season.

I don't know about universities in the US, but here in the UK, they are very secular, very Muslim and resistant to the Gospel, but hey, you can try  :dontknow:

May God lead you

Jock.

It's true. I'm learning about the British government in one of my classes, and they are a very secular nation. Although I find it strange how they have bishops and archbishops in the House of Lords despite their strong belief in separation of church and state. There are true believers everywhere though. I just pray that God gives me the strength to be a better messenger of the true good news because I know there are people out there in need of it.

Lloyd,

The British government is just as corrupt as their American counterparts. Archbishops and Bishops in the house of Lords are Anglicans and any talk of a division of church and state is just a faint. The Anglican church's head is the Queen, not Christ.

They are already the "State church" and are getting into "inter faith" services and are becoming humanistic. They don't hold much sway in the Lords except the illusion that they lend some morality to the chamber.

Anyways, I'm not very patriotic eh? I suppose I'm more sympathetic to Scottish history, for obvious reasons  :laugh:

Your heart is right though, that you want to see all come to Christ, as long as it's not in your own flesh.

Cheers mate

:dsunny:

Jock

You should try social media, bro. If you want to be a messenger of the evangel to young folks, that's where they are. That would give you a reach beyond "locally" too. You don't have to go anywhere except online, but be prepared to receive persecution. Atheists prefer Charles Darwin, and church folks prefer their god who promises to torture most of mankind in fire forever.

Quote from: Lloyd on September 27, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
I'd appreciate any ideas on where you think may be the best places to look to find people who may like to help do missionary work with me or others.

I'm thinking of colleges. If that's a good idea, are there guidelines to consider first?

Can we find potential missionaries online anywhere besides here? If so, where and how?

Lloyd, I have given this much thought.

In short, here in America we have huge problem with information. Everyone seems to want to sell me something that improve my life beyond my wildest dreams. The down and out person will listen to anyone if there is a free meal or $ attached. Even then, there are countless billboards that state "God Saves" or something equally true but uncompelling.  :sigh:

You see, I believe ignorance is long lost in this country. No one is ignorant in "their" view of God. They know what they believe and it would take more than a miracle or two to change minds and hearts. This is Fathers territory.

So what are we to do?  :dontknow:

Jesus condemned the Pharisee's and those who preached on Street corners. Rather he blessed those who gave him food and shelter, a place to sleep at night. Money even to tied them on their way. Jesus was very clear about this, saying:

Mat 25
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

I guess I am saying that LOVE and TRUTH can best be seen and understood through actions way more than words. I believe it is very important that we "LIVE" our lives with all the LOVE, HOPE and FAITH that we are. I mean live happily, showing our joy everywhere we go. Likewise our patience and compassion. Gratitude for everything should be near our lips always.

So how to reach the most people. Start with one, sowing the seeds I just mentioned and if its Father's will that these seeds grow, then surely you played your part and Father His. Together, we the children of Love can bring Love for Father back in vogue.

I truly believe this Lloyd, I hope I have not offended you.  :friendstu:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 02, 2013, 10:47:19 PM

Quote from: Lloyd on September 27, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
I'd appreciate any ideas on where you think may be the best places to look to find people who may like to help do missionary work with me or others.

I'm thinking of colleges. If that's a good idea, are there guidelines to consider first?

Can we find potential missionaries online anywhere besides here? If so, where and how?

Lloyd, I have given this much thought.

In short, here in America we have huge problem with information. Everyone seems to want to sell me something that improve my life beyond my wildest dreams. The down and out person will listen to anyone if there is a free meal or $ attached. Even then, there are countless billboards that state "God Saves" or something equally true but uncompelling.  :sigh:

You see, I believe ignorance is long lost in this country. No one is ignorant in "their" view of God. They know what they believe and it would take more than a miracle or two to change minds and hearts. This is Fathers territory.

So what are we to do?  :dontknow:

Jesus condemned the Pharisee's and those who preached on Street corners. Rather he blessed those who gave him food and shelter, a place to sleep at night. Money even to tied them on their way. Jesus was very clear about this, saying:

Mat 25
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

I guess I am saying that LOVE and TRUTH can best be seen and understood through actions way more than words. I believe it is very important that we "LIVE" our lives with all the LOVE, HOPE and FAITH that we are. I mean live happily, showing our joy everywhere we go. Likewise our patience and compassion. Gratitude for everything should be near our lips always.

So how to reach the most people. Start with one, sowing the seeds I just mentioned and if its Father's will that these seeds grow, then surely you played your part and Father His. Together, we the children of Love can bring Love for Father back in vogue.

I truly believe this Lloyd, I hope I have not offended you.  :friendstu:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

I know what you mean about people always wanting to sell you something. I've been spent a good deal of time around those "dream big, live big" people. A while back an old acquaintance contacted me saying he would be in my town and wanted to show me something that could change my life. So I listened and eventually got involved and like him became one of those people who went around "selling the dream." After a few months, God started telling me to stop and that this isn't what He had in mind for me. I ignored it for a while, but I couldn't keep living a lie and being someone that I'm not.

I'm all about dreaming big and reaching your full potential in this life that God has given you, but many of these "dreams" didn't extend beyond the scope of owning an unnecessary amount of expensive cars, or a 20 bedroom house, or a private plane and yacht. Many of the rich higher ups preached the prosperity gospel. I could write a book on all the ridiculous, scripture-twisting nonsense I heard. Not all people in that are like that though. In fact, I built relationships with a lot of kind, caring, hard-working people who like me were just young 18-30 year olds looking to make some extra money. I have a feeling they will see the nonsense eventually and leave, but that's not always easy. The system tries to program everyone into its ideal version of a businessman and also to unconditionally defend the organization. That's cult like if you ask me.

Sorry for going a little off topic with my rant, but if someone ever tries to get you to join something like this, be wary of what you get yourself into.

"Now no one can be slaving for two lords, for either he will be hating the one and loving the other, or will be upholding one and despising the other. You can not be slaving for God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24)

Exactly, and I began hating Mammon and the attitudes people had about it, which caused me to gravitate back to God. I'm not anti business or anti money, and I certainly wouldn't say the Bible is, but I'm against some of the attitudes big business minded people have. I'd rather support the small businesses in my town that are owned by honest, hardworking, humble people that care about their customers.

Quote from: Warhawk17 on October 03, 2013, 05:20:28 AM
Exactly, and I began hating Mammon and the attitudes people had about it, which caused me to gravitate back to God. I'm not anti business or anti money, and I certainly wouldn't say the Bible is, but I'm against some of the attitudes big business minded people have. I'd rather support the small businesses in my town that are honest, hardworking, humble people that care about their customers.

Wonderfully put Warhawk.  :HeartThrob:

By no means am I anti-business either. Business is the backbone of life as we enjoy it. Neither am I against nice things. I would enjoy parking Porsche in my spot at work very much. Possibly to much, because I sure would be proud of it and very grateful. Yet, I don't need a Porsche or anything special to know that Father is looking out for me.


I am right with you on supporting small businesses as well. There are plenty fine folk out there doing their best with limited resources, trying to please a whole host of people everyday. Such as these will bode well with Father I am sure because each in their own way are caring for theit customers just like you said. Leading by example.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 03, 2013, 05:56:52 AM

Quote from: Warhawk17 on October 03, 2013, 05:20:28 AM
Exactly, and I began hating Mammon and the attitudes people had about it, which caused me to gravitate back to God. I'm not anti business or anti money, and I certainly wouldn't say the Bible is, but I'm against some of the attitudes big business minded people have. I'd rather support the small businesses in my town that are honest, hardworking, humble people that care about their customers.

Wonderfully put Warhawk.  :HeartThrob:

By no means am I anti-business either. Business is the backbone of life as we enjoy it. Neither am I against nice things. I would enjoy parking Porsche in my spot at work very much. Possibly to much, because I sure would be proud of it and very grateful. Yet, I don't need a Porsche or anything special to know that Father is looking out for me.


I am right with you on supporting small businesses as well. There are plenty fine folk out there doing their best with limited resources, trying to please a whole host of people everyday. Such as these will bode well with Father I am sure because each in their own way are caring for theit customers just like you said. Leading by example.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

One of the things I loved about growing up in my hometown and still love is all the small shops and restaurants on our main street. It's an easy walk from our house, and growing up my family would frequently take weekend walks to get something to eat. Everyone knows everyone there so we'd always come across another family we knew, and when I'm home for the holidays and summers, I always run into old friends/acquaintances from high school and the Catholic grade school I attended when I visit the old joints.

I feel like I should be more open about my faith with my friends and family friends. People probably think I'm weird since I'm going against the grain in a very conservative religious Catholic/Lutheran town. But I was reading a Martin Zender newsletter the other day when he said that it's expected for us to feel like outcasts society because we're ahead of the times with our beliefs. He talked about how DaVinci was drawing helicopters 500 years before they were invented, and everyone thought he was crazy. The same could be said for Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, and any other pioneer in their respective industry. Failure and rejection are part of this life though, and we need to do our best to overcome it and keep pushing on.

Sometimes I wish I could just go back to when I was young and everything was so simple and black and white like when I was being brainwas...ahem...taught Catholicism in my school. Life was so simple and carefree, but I am more excited about the future and what God is going to do in the coming ages!! The amazing thing though was that for a long time, I just assumed that since God was so great and loving that everyone would go to Heaven. I lost this belief as I got older and we started learning the deeper "truths" of God, but I have gained it back thankfully!

The Matthew 25 passages have been helping to motivate me for a couple of months or so. Right now I'm visiting a Catholic Workers group and that's what provides major inspiration for them too. The group is only 3 people, being a new group, and none of them are "Catholic". I was discussing universalism with them a while ago, before coming here to the library, and one of them asked if I'd heard of the book, If Grace is True. I hadn't, but he then showed me a copy he has and there are lots of markings in the book where someone highlighted passages. The subtitle is Why God Will Save Every Person. He said the authors are a couple of evangelical Quakers. Two members of their group are also Quakers. And I've affiliated quite a bit with Quakers myself. Anyway, it looks like a good book. I've only read a few pages so far.

The Bible says Jesus is our example. And I believe everyone who follows Jesus' example is our example as well. The Apostles followed Jesus' example and instructions and they went in pairs to preach the gospel to the world. The Apostle's flocks then formed Christian communities, following their instructions and the Bible. I believe those communities followed the advice from Matthew 25.

That kind of sums up what kinds of efforts I feel led to get involved in, but including the universalist message too. Actually, I think it should also include Christian and ultimately universal unity, since unity was an important part of Jesus' message that the Apostles' example as well.

I'm fine with social media as a way to reach people, but I think we need to be forming local communities at the same time. I don't know what kinds of preaching the Pharisees did, but Jesus and the Apostles did preaching too, so it seems that their style of preaching is likely meant to help serve as our example too. Isn't it? While they preached, they also healed the sick, which partially fulfilled Matthew 25. One of the members of the local Catholic Workers group is practicing shiatsu, or acupressure, which he wants to make available free to those in need as a form of healing. The group is also building rooms in a building they bought where they want to shelter people in need temporarily. They're growing food too, as well as dumpster diving for good food. At least one of them is a Christian anarchist.

My main question is, are not the apostles (and Jesus) our examples? If they are our examples, are we not to do what they did, preaching to the world, healing the sick, and starting communities of the faithful?

Quote from: Lloyd on October 04, 2013, 10:55:35 PM
My main question is, are not the apostles (and Jesus) our examples? If they are our examples, are we not to do what they did, preaching to the world, healing the sick, and starting communities of the faithful?

Lloyd for sure you must look on us a an ungrateful bunch of folk. To be honest, we likely are. I mean what better news could there be knowing all of this that we call life is just temporary and we near fear nothing.  Yet, not all of us are healers, teachers, fortune tellers, etc. However, would you believe that I am a member of a UR church that is all of what you speak of and more besides.


I belong to the Unity Church of Practical Christianity. I, myself am learning Reiki (healing hands) and have had two wonderful teachers. I know several people who can see energy as color and actually pull the negative energy out of a person. I'm not there yet but have seen some amazing results of the healing touch of Love.


Our church welcomes people of ANY background or any religion. We believe that all people have a portion of the Divinity of Christ. There is nothing but Love and Encouragement. If you have never heard of this Church you might be interested in this: [size=78%]http://www.truthunity.net (http://www.truthunity.net)[/size]


This is a site that one of the member's runs and is full of very interesting studies, etc.


Please let me know what you think.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie, I don't have much time now, but I'll try to get time later today or tomorrow to look more into the website.

Where are you located approximately? There's a Unity church in Indy that I'm planning to attend soon. Do Unity members try to encourage Christians to unify? I believe that's an important work for Christians to do too.

Julie,

With that site, I am having a hard time figuring out what your church is all about. I'm not going to judge something I know nothing about, but I have a few questions. Does your church acknowledge God as the authority of all things and His son Jesus Christ as the only means to salvation? To me this sort of sounds similar to those churches that embrace all faiths and that all paths lead to the final destination which is simply untrue. Please don't get the wrong idea from my post, but I am genuinely curious.  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: Lloyd on October 07, 2013, 08:03:54 PM
Julie, I don't have much time now, but I'll try to get time later today or tomorrow to look more into the website.

Where are you located approximately? There's a Unity church in Indy that I'm planning to attend soon. Do Unity members try to encourage Christians to unify? I believe that's an important work for Christians to do too.

I am all over the place but call Texas home. As far as encouraging members to unify, it makes a point of including every person, including enemies as all being one. It is so refreshing not being in a church with an us and then attitude.

Live Julie. :HeartThrob:

Fair question deserving of an honest answer. Unity believes that Father alone can see inside ones heart and to judge any one without that knowledge is fool hardy. Loving in the same spirit that Father loves is is the ONLY OPTION.

I do not believe for a moment that: "Jesus Christ is the only means to salvation" which will likely shock you.

Jesus taught truth in Spirit. I believe people all over the world recognize a form of divinity in themselves that is greater than the whole. Jesus has told us that those that have been given little, little will be expected and the punishment light. He also stressed that the last will indeed come first.

Also, if Father has created a person to be Hindu or whatever, who am I to tell Father that he messed up. I do believe all paths lead home, some just take a lot longer than others. Perhaps the religion of eternal damnation being the longest.

I believe the majority of Jesus lovers are more heinous than most other religions barring those worshipping Alah. By their fruits we shall no then.

All we know is what Father told us, not what he told/instructed anyone else'
destination is in front of the judgement seat.

I hope that helps

Love Julie  :HeartThrob

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 07, 2013, 10:11:19 PM
I do not believe for a moment that: "Jesus Christ is the only means to salvation" which will likely shock you.

I'd suspected as much, when I first asked you about Jesus and you wouldn't/didn't answer me.  Julie, He's the SAVIOR, who shed His blood for all, and I believe we should ALL be very careful so as to not wander into error and fall into the category of many who call themselves spiritual or believers, yet are "denying the Lord that bought them".  2 Peter 2:1.     "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?".  2 Cor. 13:5

Regarding the quote and some other references Julie, I personally strongly disagree with what you've stated, as I believe it clearly goes against the scriptures. 

"No one comes to the Father but through Me" - Jesus    John 14:6

Quote from: jabcat on October 08, 2013, 12:16:35 AM

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 07, 2013, 10:11:19 PM
I do not believe for a moment that: "Jesus Christ is the only means to salvation" which will likely shock you.

I'd suspected as much, when I first asked you about Jesus and you wouldn't/didn't answer me.  He's not just a buddy, big brother, or great guy. 

I couldn't disagree more with what you've stated, and I believe it clearly goes against the scriptures.  Caveat emptor.

Ok that is a fair statement and I guess I walked right into it. Please let me clarfy.

I believe that Jesus the man was a perfect example on which to base ones life. I believe also, that Jesus died to prove that death is only an illusion. That his and our Father who is PERFECT Love would/could never see part of Him (Father) (LOVE) die.

Yet there is more, much more. I believe that the Christ, the WORD is the Spirit of Love, of Truth and the perfect example of Father. I believe that Jesus the Man had, prior to his becomming a man was one and the same with this Spirit. He was essentiall the WORD, He was the first born of creation. Yet as a man, he emptied himself of all of this and by Faith and Love he healed the sick and performed various other amazing miracles.

Jhn 17: 24
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

So what am I saying? I am saying that Jesus said himself that he taught in Spirit and in Truth. I believe that when he said:

Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He was referring much more than just his name. 

Jhn 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

Which name is that? What name does the Father share with Jesus?

I honestly don't know of a name.

I believe that one is not saved by saying "Jesus Save Me" rather I believe that by Calling on the name "Jesus" is to call on ALL that HE Represented, his and Our FATHER. He gave all Honor and all Glory to Father in everything, he NEVER sought any for himself. It has been given to me to Honor and Love the Father just how Jesus taught us to.

So now Jesus has returned to the Father. He is now once again fully Spirit, All LOVE and the WORD. Being perfect LOVE could he not SPEAK to all His Children through out the world and teach them of LOVE, so what if they have different names? Can we be sure that they are not being instructed by the WORD? Jesus told us that we will "see" a person by their fruits. I do not believe he met what came out of their mouths.

So we have Jesus the man. Who taught us of Fathers Kingdom in each of us. He promised to send the Spirit to remind us all of what he taught. He died and came back through His Faith and Love for Father as an example to prove that there is nothing to fear in death.

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of Father. What was his name before he became a man called Jesus (not even pronounced correctly) I do not know this name, so how can I call on a name that I do not know? It being the same name as Father Jhn 17:11

Perhaps it is one of these:

Isa 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I believe we must recognize the Holy divinity within each of us, our Higher-selves: understand that through this small light we can and will one day have full access to Father.

Eph 2:17, 18
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

I believe that "THROUGH" Christ Jesus, being perfect Love, Truth, Compassion, etc we all can find the peace that he taught, by looking within and not without. When someone can lose the ego and become as a child one will certainly see that there is boundless LOVE beyond compare with us always.

This is what Jesus taught and this is what I believe.

James, I truly hope I have not offended you by this. Clearly my original statement was based on the understanding of using nothing more that the "name." Of course my words "Jesus Christ" and my explanation seem to be at odds; my bad

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

It's important to base one's belief on the word of God not human philosophy even if that philosophy is based on "love" because only the word of God is the truth about love. Without the accurate reference to the truth of the word of God, one is susceptible to deception, and that's the Adversary's special method of operation. God is love, and everything including God's love comes to us through Christ who is the word of God. That also includes all creation, the reconciliation of all on earth and in the heavens, and the salvation of all mankind.

"5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

"For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

The word of God is empowered by the spirit of God.

"For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

"Now, whenever the consoler which I shall be sending you from the Father may be coming, the spirit of truth which is going out from the Father, that will be testifying concerning Me." (John 15:26)

"We are of God. He who knows God is hearing us. He who is not of God is not hearing us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deception." (1 John 4:6)

"1 Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons,
2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized" (1 Timothy 4:1,2)

"3 For the era will be when they will not tolerate sound teaching, but, their hearing being tickled, they will heap up for themselves teachers in accord with their own desires,
4 and, indeed, they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

"9 Therefore we also, from the day on which we hear, do not cease praying for you and requesting that you may be filled full with the realization of His will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,
10 you to walk worthily of the Lord for all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and growing in the realization of God;
11 being endued with all power, in accord with the might of His glory, for all endurance and patience with joy;
12 at the same time giving thanks to the Father, Who makes you competent for a part of the allotment of the saints, in light,
13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins,
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.
18 And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first,
19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:9-20)

"And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also." (1 John 2:2)

"And we have gazed upon Him, and are testifying that the Father has dispatched the Son, the Saviour of the world." (1 John 4:14)

"And there is no salvation in any other one, for neither is there any other name, given under heaven among men, in which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Dear Tom,  :HeartThrob:

Thank you for these words of Paul

(Colossians 1:13-20)
13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins,

You know, I have no idea why I wrote this: I do not believe for a moment that: "Jesus Christ is the only means to salvation" which will likely shock you. Because I believe without question all of this. I think I was voicing frustration with someone I love dearly who still thinks most of Fathers children will burn forever. Myself included. Christ has rescued all already.

15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,

The small amount of divinity that each of us have rejoices for our spirit knows we are nothing without Christ

17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.

Exactly, there is not a single person that is outside of Christ. No one "isn't" saved.

18 And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first,
19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,

Not just a portion, but all. All being all except Father.

20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens."

And EVERYONE is cleared, made clean through him, whether on Earth or in the heavens.

:dontknow: There is nothing more I can say. I wrote something I should not have for my words did not match my intent.

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie

[b]"Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest[/b]

I call out to God for this courage that the Lord speaks of here. All I find at the moment, is fear but and weakness which illustrates my dire need for Him. I know that the Lord speaks in power and that even one word transforms me, not just because it's in the Bible, although He can do it that way too, and many others.

Julie, I went to a Quaker church once and I enjoyed the quietness there but they were speaking things about other faiths that were foreign to me. I told them that if they ignored Christ, they were missing the greatest Love and wisdom in the Universe. They told me that they include Christ too, kinda lumping them all in together, a mixed cocktail or what is known as a "Mickey Finn"! I didn't go back, instead the Lord led me here, thankfully. May He give you wisdom and guide you on the way.


Jock   :Peace2:

Quote from: Jock on October 08, 2013, 12:22:11 PM
Julie, I went to a Quaker church once and I enjoyed the quietness there but they were speaking things about other faiths that were foreign to me. I told them that if they ignored Christ, they were missing the greatest Love and wisdom in the Universe. They told me that they include Christ too, kinda lumping them all in together, a mixed cocktail or what is known as a "Mickey Finn"! I didn't go back, instead the Lord led me here, thankfully. May He give you wisdom and guide you on the way.


Jock   :Peace2:

Thanks Jock, your counsel is taken in the spirit it was given. :HeartThrob: 


Perhaps this is where I made my mistake. So many confuse Jesus Christ with just the man who walked this earth. An amazing man for sure, but albeit just a tiny, tiny facet of his being. There is NOTHING that exists that exists outside of Christ. He is the Word that created the heavens and the Earth. He is the one from whom all LOVE, PEACE and WISDOM is received.


He is beyond time as we know time. Everything and I mean everything that we Live, Love and Experience is utterly complete. Father planned all of this long (relative) before our world was created. Father has no beginning and no end; therefore, Father has no past, present or future. A very difficult concept for sure, yet if this was not true: Father would be older now than before, but we know that Father is ageless and does not / cannot change.


I guess what I am trying to say, is that the redemption of all was not just promised, it was completed before Adam came into existence.


So what does this mean for the person who has never heard the name: Jesus Christ? Very little as Jesus Christ has redeemed this person already. What then of those that are sure Jesus and Father are heinous, brutal evil even god's that will take glory in the torture of millions if not billions. Well, they are in for one heck of a shock. Their shame will be great I am sure when they learn that LOVE, loves and fear destroys.


So one could easily take all of this and reason that anyone could do what they like; kill, rape and plunder and nothing will happen. Logical but not entirely practical. For what this knowledge really does is to remove the blinders of limitations and constraints. It opens the door to all Peace and Love. You see that is why we are here. To Love as Father has Loved us, to have Faith as Jesus the man had faith. To create miracles through Love, to lift each other up, encouraging one another. Jesus the man showed us how to do this. He showed us that our opinions and wisdom is nothing without love.


So getting back on point. Why are there so many different flavors of religions. For that matter, why so many different flavors of Christianity? Each would be teacher is leading their flock somewhere. Will each flock find Love, Peace and Truth? Doubtful, but who knows what Father has planned? There are gods of all types, mystics and shaman's world wide. To lump Jesus Christ in with such is mistake, though many lump Jesus the man. Still a mistake, as Jesus the man was The Christ incarnate. No other god, shaman or mystic can claim this.


Unity Church does not exclude any race, color or sexual orientation. It welcomes all with open arms and seeks to tear down walls of division, realizing that only Love for one another through the Spirit of Love and Truth is the only way. It teaches that we are all one in spirit, regardless of how dim the little spirit light is flickering.


There is so much more to Christ Jesus than just professing the words: "I give my life to Jesus"


He is the source of all Peace, Love and Spirit, for no one can come to Father but through his Glorious Son.   :HeartThrob:

We just need to just be still and know that He is Lord of all and let the Love flow through.


Love Julie

 I drove down, with my wife yesterday to Edinburgh airport to pick up our son and his fiancé who are visiting from Canada.  While we were waiting in the terminal for their plane to arrive, I noticed an "Interfaith Prayer Room) It had all the symbols, Crescent moon, Candelabra and others and then of course, the Cross.

They were all just the symbols of man's religions and I don't belong to any of them. I didn't go in but I am thinking just how much I hate political correctness and this room was telling people that "here at Edinburgh airport", we are politically correct and multicultural!

It left a stench in my nostrils. My spirit said "STOP"! I follow Yeshua, not the Christian faith. God is not a Christian.

Jock.   :doh:

I know what you mean, bro, but I think it's sad that we think "the Christian faith" is church doctrine because the true Christian faith is not the distorted religion of the Roman Empire which calls itself Christianity. I believe we are sharing the true "Christian faith" here on this forum. I think we should take back "the Christian faith" from the church because it dishonors it with lies. I think we need to speak the truth that the church is not "the Christian faith." Christ put down the Pharisees because of their hypocrisy. The church is the modern day Pharisees. Truth is not any more popular today than it was when Christ spoke it, but it needs to be told. We may miss the socializing of the church, but that's better than being hypocrites ourselves. Now that we know the truth, we can't go along with church doctrine. The Roman Empire established church doctrine to be politically correct with the pagan religions. That was what ruined the reputation of Christianity. We need to stop believing the creeds established by Rome, and just believe the word of God. It is better to get our virtual fellowship here in truth rather than just going through the motions in church for the sake of socializing because we know the church doesn't preach the truth.

"God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

Tom, Amen brother!

Amen and Amen   :iagree:

Jock

Could we stick to the topic of this thread, please? It's easy to start another thread to discuss other topics. Julie, do you read PMs? Can I send you one to read?

Sorry Lloyd, my fault, meant to write in on a different thread.   :dontknow:

Quote from: Lloyd on October 08, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
Could we stick to the topic of this thread, please? It's easy to start another thread to discuss other topics. Julie, do you read PMs? Can I send you one to read?

Sure  :HeartThrob:

Thanks, Julie. If it's true that Unity gets members of all denominations etc together, then I think that would be a good effort to join in, since unity is one of Jesus' major advisory statements. So, if they teach both unity and universalism, and study spiritual/physical healing to boot, that seems very encouraging. But, if they're very progressive or liberal, I'm afraid they may not be seeking unity with conservative Christians, whereas I think conservatives would be among the most worth befriending early.

Quote from: Lloyd on October 08, 2013, 11:09:30 PM
Thanks, Julie. If it's true that Unity gets members of all denominations etc together, then I think that would be a good effort to join in, since unity is one of Jesus' major advisory statements. So, if they teach both unity and universalism, and study spiritual/physical healing to boot, that seems very encouraging. But, if they're very progressive or liberal, I'm afraid they may not be seeking unity with conservative Christians, whereas I think conservatives would be among the most worth befriending early.

Thank you Lloyd for your thoughtful response. I certainly do not consider Unity to be Liberal or Progressive, in fact far from it. But then it is not tied into old school ideas and beliefs. The Church is very opened minded and measures everything against Love. Love for Father, Love for Son and Love for each other. This is not to say that there is not Liberal or Progressive members, for there are; however, no toes are being stepped on when the principle teaching is that we are all One with Christ and Christ being the Shepherd of the entire world. Unity teaches that Love and Spiritual growth for all is what Jesus and Paul taught. There is no dogmatic doctrine and just about anything can be discussed after the service, providing it is presented in Love. There have been a few who simply could not handle this constraint. Unity believes there is no love in a lot of church doctrine; rather that the divinity of  spirit is Love. Well this is my understanding and is given as such.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

I do still plan to check out Unity Church this Sunday here in Indy, but now I'm getting two worries. One, as I stated in another thread here, is that they may feel like they're too pure to need to get their hands dirty to help others physically. And the second now is that they may consider what I say to be not in the spirit of love. After all I think the Pharisees didn't feel like many of Jesus' words to or about them were "loving", since he didn't shower them with many compliments or praises.

Quote from: Lloyd on October 09, 2013, 05:28:29 AM
I do still plan to check out Unity Church this Sunday here in Indy, but now I'm getting two worries. One, as I stated in another thread here, is that they may feel like they're too pure to need to get their hands dirty to help others physically. And the second now is that they may consider what I say to be not in the spirit of love. After all I think the Pharisees didn't feel like many of Jesus' words to or about them were "loving", since he didn't shower them with many compliments or praises.

Lloyd if I gave you any reason to think that "my" Unity church would treat you like an outsider than please accept my deepest of apologies.


Too pure, that is almost to funny. I promise you, no one is to pure. In fact no one is considered higher than anyone else because Father does not Love some of his children more than others, even though from our puny view point it might seem so.


As for considering what you say not being in the spirit of love, only you can be the judge of that. In my experience in life in general, it matter most of how something is said than what. Please understand fully, that there are people from all walks of life, from all religious backgrounds; everyone has a truckload of dogma, ideas and insights. What sets Unity apart from any other church I have ever attended, is that they do not judge but rather Love.


I was shocked most about the Love filled Sanctuary, it was warm, positive and inviting. In every other church until then, I felt like I was an unwanted outsider and everyone I knew felt the same way but went out of duty.


Lloyd, the church may not be for you. Go in with an open mind and an open heart an experience it with no preconceptions. I will be honest though. I was dreading attending yet another church and begrudgingly walked through the front door. I was blown away, I was not expecting to feel like I had come home, but I did. My higher self knew it too.


Just relax and know that Father is with you always.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]

Quote from: Lloyd on October 09, 2013, 05:28:29 AM
I do still plan to check out Unity Church this Sunday here in Indy, but now I'm getting two worries. One, as I stated in another thread here, is that they may feel like they're too pure to need to get their hands dirty to help others physically. And the second now is that they may consider what I say to be not in the spirit of love. After all I think the Pharisees didn't feel like many of Jesus' words to or about them were "loving", since he didn't shower them with many compliments or praises.

That's very true. I recommend that everyone reads this. http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm L Ray Smith was a great teacher, and he put it all together pretty well here. Jesus wasn't some nicey nice dude who went around praising everyone all the time. He flipped over tables, cussed out the Pharisees many times, and told people what they needed to hear. Yes he is love, but what kind of love would it be if he didn't point out the error of people's ways? Paul also told us to expose those who contradict.

My parents have given me so much love and care all my life. However, like any good parent, they also pointed out my faults and punished me when I rebelled against them. Sometimes they would yell and say things I didn't find particularly pleasant, and they would take away certain privileges I had. Most people agree that good parents should do these things.

And for some reason these same people will get offended when they realize Jesus was the same way. He wasn't always a warm and fuzzy guy. Like a good parent, he told everyone what they needed to hear and pointed out their faults and sins. Parents who unconditionally support their kids, even if they are rebellious, are typically chastised by other parents for letting their kids get out of control. Yet when people are told Jesus was like this they get offended? I am confused, but Churchianity is a very confusing place.

Quote from: Warhawk17 on October 09, 2013, 09:19:04 AM

Quote from: Lloyd on October 09, 2013, 05:28:29 AM
I do still plan to check out Unity Church this Sunday here in Indy, but now I'm getting two worries. One, as I stated in another thread here, is that they may feel like they're too pure to need to get their hands dirty to help others physically. And the second now is that they may consider what I say to be not in the spirit of love. After all I think the Pharisees didn't feel like many of Jesus' words to or about them were "loving", since he didn't shower them with many compliments or praises.

That's very true. I recommend that everyone reads this. http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm) L Ray Smith was a great teacher, and he put it all together pretty well here. Jesus wasn't some nicey nice dude who went around praising everyone all the time. He flipped over tables, cussed out the Pharisees many times, and told people what they needed to hear. Yes he is love, but what kind of love would it be if he didn't point out the error of people's ways? Paul also told us to expose those who contradict.

My parents have given me so much love and care all my life. However, like any good parent, they also pointed out my faults and punished me when I rebelled against them. Sometimes they would yell and say things I didn't find particularly pleasant, and they would take away certain privileges I had. Most people agree that good parents should do these things.

And for some reason these same people will get offended when they realize Jesus was the same way. He wasn't always a warm and fuzzy guy. Like a good parent, he told everyone what they needed to hear and pointed out their faults and sins. Parents who unconditionally support their kids, even if they are rebellious, are typically chastised by other parents for letting their kids get out of control. Yet when people are told Jesus was like this they get offended? I am confused, but Churchianity is a very confusing place.

This is so well presented on so many levels,it is difficult to find where to begin. Thanks Warhawk.


Yes, LOVE is all what you state. It can be just as tough as it is gentle; however, in it's toughness it is seeking to build up the good, not tear it down. Sometimes going through this process feels nothing like Love and it is because our egos get in the way. As you say, some are offended when they learn of what Jesus said or did; however, it seems there are so many more who spew out the words of Jesus, not understanding that the words are empty without the Spirit of Love.


When we learn that Love covers a multitude of sins, it is not a blanket in as much as it "hides" the sin beneath it. Rather, Love can tackle any number of sins, for no sin is to great to be handled with anything but Love of Father. This love may be firm and even appear harsh, but the Spirit in which it is given can never be mistaken.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Off-Topic?
I don't know if this subject is really on-topic, so, if anyone wants to discuss this more, I suppose we ought to start a different thread for it. If we do, I can move this post to the new thread.

Family Health Notes - Don't Scream at Your Teens
I post health news from Dr. Mercola at http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17549.0 (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17549.0). A recent article there, Screaming at Your Misbehaving Teen May Backfire, came from http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/newsletter-archive/2013/09/19.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/newsletter-archive/2013/09/19.aspx). I've studied several parenting methods since 1975 and have found that, although most parents do fairly good at parenting, most can also use quite a bit of improvement. That's another place where I see too much complacency. It seems to me that there's a lot less love in most families than what there could be. And family members don't really know how to improve their moods and their relationships with others.

I learned quite a bit from Thomas Gordon's book, Parent Effectiveness Training. He pointed out that both authoritarian and permissive parenting lead to emotional and relationship problems and to kids who become less effective adults. People tend to be insensitive to each other's emotions, but as long as negative emotions are experienced it's hard to move forward. So there are a lot of people who have trouble moving forward because their emotions aren't resolved, because they don't know how to resolve them. They become insensitive to their own emotions and to those of others.

Emotions Resolved
Yet, it's so simple to resolve emotions most of the time. Usually, when someone feels a negative emotion all they need is to be understood by someone nearby. And the way they know they're understood is if someone comments non-judgmentally on the emotion while naming it. On Christmas maybe ten years ago my niece had given her brother a sweater as a present, but when he commented that he was disappointed with it, she started crying silently and went up to her room to cry on her bed. No one else noticed her. I did and I went up by her door and asked if she was sad that her brother didn't like her present much. She said yes, then I added that I didn't think he was that upset by it. That's all it took. She seemed to feel much better right away and she went right back downstairs to rejoin the party. I had quite a number of experiences like that. It often seems almost miraculous, because people's emotions can change quite suddenly by such methods. Their feeling of aloneness or stress goes away, simply from being heard by someone.

Unresolved
Sometimes it's harder to resolve an emotion. I visited a spiritual humanitarian group recently and just before I left I got into a conflict that isn't resolved yet. There was a dead mouse by the frij which had died from mouse poison probably. I mentioned it to the lady of the house. She said she noticed it. I may have mentioned then that it might be better to catch them with traps than with poison. She said she didn't like hurting animals and thought they suffered less from poison than from traps. I commented that I didn't think most animals are nearly as sensitive to pain as humans are. She was getting upset at that point, I think, but I didn't notice it until she said shortly after that that she wanted to drop the subject. I was okay with that, but I then sensed that she was upset, so I wanted to let her know I understood her emotion by asking her if she felt I'd been judgmental of her. She said yes and she repeated that she didn't want to talk about it any more, but I felt that we weren't talking about the mouse any more, but about feelings. So I asked if she didn't want to try to resolve the conflict instead of letting it fester. She then left the kitchen and went to her room. I realized later that she probably thought I was insensitive to animals' feelings and I probably was more concerned about humans' feelings. But, being an amateur, I didn't choose the best words to use. She even thought I was psychoanalyzing her and said she didn't need that.

Clearness Committees
I still think it's best to try to resolve such conflicts as soon as possible, because I don't think there can be world peace if people don't learn to resolve conflicts respectfully. So I emailed the group's contact person and I asked to have a clearness committee on the matter. The woman is a Quaker and Quakers sometimes have clearness committees to help someone get clarity on a personal issue etc. I've asked for two clearness committees for myself years ago, so I have experience with them. There's a good explanation of them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearness_committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearness_committee). I hope they will agree to that, so we can be at peace on the matter. I said I'd prefer doing it by email, because I don't have a car and it would be more expensive and time consuming in person.

Supernanny
I think the Supernanny tv show is also very good at showing how to improve relationships in families. Of the many shows I've watched, I think in every case the families felt much more harmonious and loving after learning to practice her methods. She starts with family ground rules, like no hitting, name-calling, mocking, cussing etc, what chores to do, what time each day the parents play with the kids, when to have meals, when to do homework with help from parents, when is bedtime etc. When kids misbehave, parents are taught to put younger kids in time-out for one minute for each year of age of the child. For older kids they're taught to take away or reduce a privilege for a week or so. She teaches parents not to yell in anger and to calm down to defuse anger before giving discipline.

By the way, Warhawk, I find the section called THIS IS THE ONLY DAY OF SALVATION at the webpage you referenced (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm)) very helpful for universalist teaching. I'm glad you posted it and I read it. I also see now that he has a good discussion of "aionios" at http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#aion (http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#aion).

I went to Unity Church in Indy on Sunday. It's universalist and seeks Christian unity as well and also helps member learn spiritual healing etc. I met a young homeless guy there and had the privilege of helping him out some. And I hope to help out some more. But there's a lot more that could be done politically to help the homeless and other needy. So I'm discussing with others how to bring caring back into politics. Our govt was founded on Christian principles and needs to get those principles back, but better this time.

Quote from: Lloyd on October 16, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
I went to Unity Church in Indy on Sunday. It's universalist and seeks Christian unity

I didn't plan on saying anything else, no point in fruitless struggling.  However, it's been brought back up, so gently but honestly, I see it also encourages open rebellious sin, and even welcomes it into the pulpit teaching others.

For any guests passing through the Tentmaker discussion forum, I visited the Unity "church" site, and I believe it's filled with much unscriptural deceit.  They may mean well, but I personally would discourage being drawn into their (what I believe is) apostacy.

I don't know about Universalist/Unity churches, so I can't comment. But there is grave danger in Inter-Faith churches! That is, sitting with Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist and the like. I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

Just a word to the wise.

Jock. :Peace2:

Quote from: jabcat on October 16, 2013, 06:50:53 AM

Quote from: Lloyd on October 16, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
I went to Unity Church in Indy on Sunday. It's universalist and seeks Christian unity

I didn't plan on saying anything else, no point in fruitless struggling.  However, it's been brought back up, so gently but honestly, I see it also encourages open rebellious sin, and even welcomes it into the pulpit teaching others.

For any guests passing through the Tentmaker discussion forum, I visited the Unity "church" site, and I believe it's filled with much unscriptural deceit.  They may mean well, but I personally would discourage being drawn into their (what I believe is) apostacy.

  Amen to that  ,   the warnings are there   ,   the consequence   and the  blessing for overcoming

those traps of false apostles teaching men so ,    Jab   Just agreeing with the WORD OF GOD as well !

Rev 2:1 "Write this letter to the angel  of the church in Ephesus. This is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven gold lampstands: 


Rev 2:2 "I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don't tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars. 


Rev 2:3 You have patiently suffered for me without quitting. 


Rev 2:4 "But I have this complaint against you. You don't love me or each other as you did at first!

Rev 2:5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don't repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches. 


Rev 2:6 But this is in your favor: You hate the evil deeds of the Nicolaitans, just as I do. 


Rev 2:7 "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God. 


Rev 2:8 "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive: 


Rev 2:9 "I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan. 


Rev 2:10 Don't be afraid of what you are about to suffer. The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days. But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life. 


Rev 2:11 "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death. 


Rev 2:12 "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Pergamum. This is the message from the one with the sharp two-edged sword: 


Rev 2:13 "I know that you live in the city where Satan has his throne, yet you have remained loyal to me. You refused to deny me even when Antipas, my faithful witness, was martyred among you there in Satan's city. 


Rev 2:14 "But I have a few complaints against you. You tolerate some among you whose teaching is like that of Balaam, who showed Balak how to trip up the people of Israel. He taught them to sin by eating food offered to idols and by committing sexual sin. 


Rev 2:15 In a similar way, you have some Nicolaitans among you who follow the same teaching. 


Rev 2:16 Repent of your sin, or I will come to you suddenly and fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 


Rev 2:17 "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give some of the manna that has been hidden away in heaven. And I will give to each one a white stone, and on the stone will be engraved a new name that no one understands except the one who receives it. 


Rev 2:18 "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Thyatira. This is the message from the Son of God, whose eyes are like flames of fire, whose feet are like polished bronze: 


Rev 2:19 "I know all the things you do. I have seen your love, your faith, your service, and your patient endurance. And I can see your constant improvement in all these things. 


Rev 2:20 "But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols. 


Rev 2:21 I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality. 


Rev 2:22 "Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering, [fn] and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn away from her evil deeds. 


Rev 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve. 


Rev 2:24 "But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching ('deeper truths,' as they call them—depths of Satan, actually). I will ask nothing more of you 


Rev 2:25 except that you hold tightly to what you have until I come. 


Rev 2:26 To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations. 


Rev 2:27 They will rule the nations with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots. [fn] 


Rev 2:28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star! 


Rev 2:29 "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. 

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 02:27:17 PM
I don't know about Universalist/Unity churches, so I can't comment. But there is grave danger in Inter-Faith churches! That is, sitting with Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist and the like. I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

Just a word to the wise.

Jock. :Peace2:

:iagree:

  I know that Love is not some sticky   gooey  sweet layer of   talking  that anything goes .

the real Truth in Love is  actually a somber   reality , God is the judge of all
 
we are to judge what is right  though  and stay faithful to His Word

  For me its always been a matter of perspective   and How we see Jesus Christ the Son of God   , by His Word and though His Spirit  , thats the only way to know God   here and now as its written

heard and  mostly  LIVED !

Quote from: jabcat on October 16, 2013, 06:50:53 AM

Quote from: Lloyd on October 16, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
I went to Unity Church in Indy on Sunday. It's universalist and seeks Christian unity

I didn't plan on saying anything else, no point in fruitless struggling.  However, it's been brought back up, so gently but honestly, I see it also encourages open rebellious sin, and even welcomes it into the pulpit teaching others.

For any guests passing through the Tentmaker discussion forum, I visited the Unity "church" site, and I believe it's filled with much unscriptural deceit.  They may mean well, but I personally would discourage being drawn into their (what I believe is) apostacy.

This post might see me band from Tent Maker if, so then please accept my sincere appreciation for all that I have learned in my short time here. I hope that I have been able to share a little light on the Love that Father has for all. You see, the struggles we have is not with the world, but our very own ego.


It's the ego that is not loved and thanked each time that it seeks to protect, that has consequence of the words quoted in this post. It would appear that Jabcat can decide that the amazing Loving and Fruitful church I attend "encourages open rebellious sin." Unforuantly, Jabcat would rather voice his distain for something he has read than being open an honest enough to admit he has NEVER ATTENDED a single service at an Unity Church.


While he readily admits that he "believes" Unity teaches apostacy, he has no honest idea, because he cannot read the hearts of those that attend. He also has no concept of the fruits produced or the total lack of anomosity to all.


Jabcat, I bid you nothing but Love, for it is LOVE that I have for all. You may discredit Unity Church, but atleast do a little more than read something from a website before condemning them as being of Satan. You really have no idea, because you are more interested in Words that can be heard over those that cannot. Jesus said the time for Worshiping in Spirit is NOW. Worshiping in Spirit of Love and Truth.


So if this post see's my account closed, then so be it.


Father has blessed me with such peace and such love that I will be fine.


My Love to you all, always.


Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 02:27:17 PM
I don't know about Universalist/Unity churches, so I can't comment. But there is grave danger in Inter-Faith churches! That is, sitting with Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist and the like. I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

Just a word to the wise.

Jock. :Peace2:

Jock, unfortunately, they know not what they do. Just as Jesus said on the cross. He forgave them and asked Father to as well.  :HeartThrob:



The Scriptures give us reason to know why....Father has hardened their hearts. They are as little children, not even knowing what they are doing is wrong.


Yet we are told to Love them. I think this is a wiser instruction. We can't hope to given them what Father has forbade, yet we can treat them with respect just as the good Samaritan did to the guy beaten and left for dead on the ground. Spiritually speaking, are these not the same.


And one final question: What god are they worshipping that is not sanctioned by Father?


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]

Quote from: rosered on October 16, 2013, 06:20:29 PM

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 02:27:17 PM
I don't know about Universalist/Unity churches, so I can't comment. But there is grave danger in Inter-Faith churches! That is, sitting with Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist and the like. I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

Just a word to the wise.

Jock. :Peace2:

:iagree:

  I know that Love is not some sticky   gooey  sweet layer of   talking  that anything goes .

the real Truth in Love is  actually a somber   reality , God is the judge of all
 
we are to judge what is right  though  and stay faithful to His Word

  For me its always been a matter of perspective   and How we see Jesus Christ the Son of God   , by His Word and though His Spirit  , thats the only way to know God   here and now as its written

heard and  mostly  LIVED !

Dear Rosered :HeartThrob:


Is this the kind of Love that you think I speak of? I hope you do not lose sight of the fact that Jesus Christ is Spirit and He is the Word. He teaches in Spirit to those that have ears to hear.


Father grants this hearing, no one else. If we can "hear" why should we ever look down on those that cannot.


We should always live as if we have been given the greatest gift on Earth, because WE HAVE.  :HeartThrob:


Is it not our job to love these little lost children who know not Fathers unconditional Love so that through the Spirit of truth we have been given, we can teach spirit to spirit. The fruits of which will speak for themselves.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]

Julie

You are right that we can sometimes speak the truth, but with the wrong pneuma (spirit/wind/breath. I have been guilty of that more than a few times. Yes, we must show respect to those who worship differently to us. We must love them, not in human terms or because it's in the Bible but more as a natural outflow of the Spirit of Christ within us.

We have to be careful too, that we don't share common ground with those outside the faith. To do that would be to hate them because the Lord will not sit with sin. The other thing I need to mention is that we should not go out "evangelizing". If the Lord wants to draw someone to us, HE will.

Blessings

Jock.  :Peace2:

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 08:08:49 PM
We have to be careful too, that we don't share common ground with those outside the faith. To do that would be to hate them because the Lord will not sit with sin. The other thing I need to mention is that we should not go out "evangelizing". If the Lord wants to draw someone to us, HE will.

Blessings

Jock.  :Peace2:

I agree 100% with you Jock. To try to do something to undo the work of Father is to say: "Father, you messed up!"


I believe those whom Father has left in the dark, are for our benefit or dare I mention destruction. Jesus made it very clear that to those that little has been given, little shall be expected. He then said, that to those that much has been given (read UR) much, much more is expected.


We must see these people as lost children wandering around in the dark. We can show them the way home by the light of truth that we present (not say.) If we present the fruits of the Spirit 24/7 and sow spiritual seeds wherever we go and to whomever we meet, who knows whom Father might cause to grow.


Thanks Jock  :HeartThrob:


Love Julie

Yeah, when I kill a bird or animal on the road, I am devastated but in my younger days, I would kill an animal without twitching. The animals were here first and they have no road sense.

HE really does take away the hard heart and gives us a heart of flesh. Obviously that applies to those who are in darkness.

Jock.

There was a time when I lived in a cabin on a mountain with no indoor plumbing or electricity, and I read my King James Bible by the light of an oil lamp. I had to walk two miles through the snow to get down to a road where I'd walk and hitchhike another 7 miles into town to go to a church with some very loving folks. I don't live on that mountain anymore. I quit going to church, and I quit reading the King James Version.

These days I'm content just to be a member of the body of Christ and a student of the word of God more accurately translated. I visit the Tentmaker forum for my fellowship even though I don't agree with everything I read here. I realize folks have different perspectives with different interpretations of scripture. 

I believe scripture is the inspired written word of God, but scripture can be misused. Satan even quoted scripture when he confronted Christ in the wilderness. Scripture has been distorted to propagate church doctrine.

I believe scripture is the word of truth, and I think folks should refuse to believe teachings that contradict scripture. That's why I quit the church, and that's why I quit reading the King James Version. I think, even if a teaching contains some truth, but contradicts scripture, it should not be believed.

Despite the fact that there may be some loving folks in church, church doctrine contradicts the word of God.

I personally don't subscribe to any philosophy, creed, or doctrine that does not conform to the word of God. That's why I don't belong to a church.

"8 Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ,
9 for in Him the entire complement of the Deity is dwelling bodily." (Colossians 2:8,9)

"3 For the era will be when they will not tolerate sound teaching, but, their hearing being tickled, they will heap up for themselves teachers in accord with their own desires,
4 and, indeed, they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3)

"13 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
15 It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

"13 Satan changes his tactics to conform to God's administrations. At times he deceives, and again he destroys. Peter speaks of him as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet.5:8). Such will be his course in the judgment era following the present administration of grace, when the epistles of Peter will have their application. Now Satan is transfigured into an angel of light. He is not hideous, but beautiful. His servants stand for righteousness and pose as apostles of Christ. His world is not found in the sinks of iniquity, but in the efforts to educate and reform mankind apart from the blood of Christ. He deceives by assuming the very role which he is popularly supposed to oppose." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 275)

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 16, 2013, 07:10:36 PM

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 02:27:17 PM
I don't know about Universalist/Unity churches, so I can't comment. But there is grave danger in Inter-Faith churches! That is, sitting with Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist and the like. I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

Just a word to the wise.

Jock. :Peace2:

Jock, unfortunately, they know not what they do. Just as Jesus said on the cross. He forgave them and asked Father to as well.  :HeartThrob:



The Scriptures give us reason to know why....Father has hardened their hearts. They are as little children, not even knowing what they are doing is wrong.


Yet we are told to Love them. I think this is a wiser instruction. We can't hope to given them what Father has forbade, yet we can treat them with respect just as the good Samaritan did to the guy beaten and left for dead on the ground. Spiritually speaking, are these not the same.


And one final question: What god are they worshipping that is not sanctioned by Father?


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]

I am two beings .
I am only one being at a time.
God has given me the free gift of deciding moment by moment which being I am.

God created two vessels one for destruction and one for Honor.

Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.


And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small."


I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

We worship in spirit!
How would anyone know if they were worshipping God.
There is a church in Texas that says God is punishing   Gays with aids.
But once they die God is going to delight in torturing them forever.

When they worship this God is it the same God I worship.
They say they are Christians.
The flesh can call it's self what ever it wants.
The Spirit is NOT FLESH.

Julie you definitely are NOT  a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Something I suspected all along .

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 16, 2013, 06:58:26 PM

Quote from: jabcat on October 16, 2013, 06:50:53 AM

Quote from: Lloyd on October 16, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
I went to Unity Church in Indy on Sunday. It's universalist and seeks Christian unity

I didn't plan on saying anything else, no point in fruitless struggling.  However, it's been brought back up, so gently but honestly, I see it also encourages open rebellious sin, and even welcomes it into the pulpit teaching others.

For any guests passing through the Tentmaker discussion forum, I visited the Unity "church" site, and I believe it's filled with much unscriptural deceit.  They may mean well, but I personally would discourage being drawn into their (what I believe is) apostacy.

This post might see me band from Tent Maker if, so then please accept my sincere appreciation for all that I have learned in my short time here. I hope that I have been able to share a little light on the Love that Father has for all. You see, the struggles we have is not with the world, but our very own ego.


It's the ego that is not loved and thanked each time that it seeks to protect, that has consequence of the words quoted in this post. It would appear that Jabcat can decide that the amazing Loving and Fruitful church I attend "encourages open rebellious sin." Unforuantly, Jabcat would rather voice his distain for something he has read than being open an honest enough to admit he has NEVER ATTENDED a single service at an Unity Church.


While he readily admits that he "believes" Unity teaches apostacy, he has no honest idea, because he cannot read the hearts of those that attend. He also has no concept of the fruits produced or the total lack of anomosity to all.


Jabcat, I bid you nothing but Love, for it is LOVE that I have for all. You may discredit Unity Church, but atleast do a little more than read something from a website before condemning them as being of Satan. You really have no idea, because you are more interested in Words that can be heard over those that cannot. Jesus said the time for Worshiping in Spirit is NOW. Worshiping in Spirit of Love and Truth.


So if this post see's my account closed, then so be it.


Father has blessed me with such peace and such love that I will be fine.


My Love to you all, always.


Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie, I don't need to go to a service to recognize apostacy when it's blatantly advertised and promoted, just as I don't need to wallow around in a pigpen to know that it stinks and gets one muddy.

Their site has a section for practicing homosexuals, and it says they ordain/approve of actively homosexual ministers/pastors.  I'm not going to argue with you any further about details of what they believe - they state pretty clearly what they believe and teach, and I can read it for myself.  But I will say there are other things there that reek of new age/far eastern mysticism IMO.  If you choose to go there and openly promote it, don't expect me to swallow it or not raise a red flag to others - of which I will do when I see blatant error, i.e., things are clearly against the scripture and serve as a danger to the flock.  Also, I'd suggest let's not make this a public personal issue.

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 08:08:49 PM
Yes, we must show respect to those who worship differently to us. We must love them..

Amen.  And despite what some may accuse or assume, nothing different from this has been said.  I just personally don't believe "loving" them means promoting and encouraging anyone's open willful sin.

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 08:08:49 PM


We have to be careful too, that we don't share common ground with those outside the faith. To do that would be to hate them because the Lord will not sit with sin.

Amen again.  On target, IMO.   

Quote from: rosered on October 16, 2013, 06:20:29 PM


  I know that Love is not some sticky   gooey  sweet layer of   talking  that anything goes .

the real Truth in Love is  actually a somber   reality , God is the judge of all
 
we are to judge what is right  though  and stay faithful to His Word

Amen rosie.   Blessings.

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 02:19:10 AM
.

Julie you definitely are NOT  a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Something I suspected all along .[/color]

Please explain  :sigh:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 16, 2013, 07:17:33 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 16, 2013, 06:20:29 PM

Quote from: Jock on October 16, 2013, 02:27:17 PM
I don't know about Universalist/Unity churches, so I can't comment. But there is grave danger in Inter-Faith churches! That is, sitting with Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist and the like. I don't for a minute buy into the lie of "We are all worshipping the same God".

Just a word to the wise.

Jock. :Peace2:

:iagree:

  I know that Love is not some sticky   gooey  sweet layer of   talking  that anything goes .

the real Truth in Love is  actually a somber   reality , God is the judge of all
 
we are to judge what is right  though  and stay faithful to His Word

  For me its always been a matter of perspective   and How we see Jesus Christ the Son of God   , by His Word and though His Spirit  , thats the only way to know God   here and now as its written

heard and  mostly  LIVED !

Dear Rosered :HeartThrob:


Is this the kind of Love that you think I speak of? I hope you do not lose sight of the fact that Jesus Christ is Spirit and He is the Word. He teaches in Spirit to those that have ears to hear.


Father grants this hearing, no one else. If we can "hear" why should we ever look down on those that cannot.


We should always live as if we have been given the greatest gift on Earth, because WE HAVE.  :HeartThrob:


Is it not our job to love these little lost children who know not Fathers unconditional Love so that through the Spirit of truth we have been given, we can teach spirit to spirit. The fruits of which will speak for themselves.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]

Thank you for answering Julie
  Much appreciated  ,  I judge no one .
I just know that  the warning is to preach this gospel to the ends of the world for a witness !
this gospel of Jesus Christ and the cross  , is the good news we are to preach or speak of


   For  me its so simple a child can understand it 

  and   if its some other gospel we should   take heed  that its NOT the same gospel   
    that  all those  apostles   wrote for our benefit

Do you see what I am trying to say here ?

  Its  going to be a witness  for us or against us  any of us  though the ages   to  tell / teach men so

To  me this is the failure of all   those whom   religion   has been  in vain

  there is a pattern   we are to follow 
   2Cr 11:1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 


2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride [fn] to one husband—Christ. 


2Cr 11:3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 


2Cr 11:4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 


2Cr 11:5 But I don't consider myself inferior in any way to these "super apostles" who teach such things. 


2Cr 11:6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I'm not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way. 


2Cr 11:7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God's Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 


2Cr 11:8 I "robbed" other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 


2Cr 11:9 And when I was with you and didn't have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 


2Cr 11:10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece [fn] will ever stop me from boasting about this. 


2Cr 11:11 Why? Because I don't love you? God knows that I do. 


2Cr 11:12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 


2Cr 11:13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 


2Cr 11:14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 


2Cr 11:15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.  


2Cr 11:16 Again I say, don't think that I am a fool to talk like this. But even if you do, listen to me, as you would to a foolish person, while I also boast a little. 


2Cr 11:17 Such boasting is not from the Lord, but I am acting like a fool. 


2Cr 11:18 And since others boast about their human achievements, I will, too. 


2Cr 11:19 After all, you think you are so wise, but you enjoy putting up with fools! 


2Cr 11:20 You put up with it when someone enslaves you, takes everything you have, takes advantage of you, takes control of everything, and slaps you in the face. 


    I look at the Spirit of Love   as being balanced    and whom God loves He corrects also 

I believe that the cross of Jesus Christ is a very critical   part that must be  our foundational truth   to build upon   thats all  :2c:

   

"6 I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel,
7 which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ.
8 But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 17, 2013, 03:06:25 AM

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 02:19:10 AM
.

Julie you definitely are NOT  a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Something I suspected all along .[/color]

Please explain  :sigh:

It was meant as an encouragement.


If I speak human or angelic languages
but do not have love,
I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy
and understand all mysteries
and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith
so that I can move mountains
but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor,
and if I give my body in order to boast[a]
but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind.
Love does not envy,
is not boastful, is not conceited,
5 does not act improperly,
is not selfish, is not provoked,
and does not keep a record of wrongs.
6 Love finds no joy in unrighteousness
but rejoices in the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, endures all things.


The Holy Spirit Loves.


It is way easier to prove and be approved by your peers for knowledge of the Bible.
Than it is to be approved by your peers and have a reputation for Love.

Love is the proof of the Holy Spirit not biblical Doctrine.
Once I found out that Love was the power behind Christ( not the bible).
My ego and it's ability to be proven right was a secondary issue.

Everything even accurate scriptural interpretations are a secondary issue.

Love is the most important.
Some people will go to great lengths to describe a kind of love that is not love.
Then continue on to elevate something or some doctrine above Love.

Julie you already know this.

Father Loves
Jesus Loves
Holy Spirit Loves

Love is Fathers only pleasure.

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 05:22:57 AM

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 17, 2013, 03:06:25 AM

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 02:19:10 AM
.

Julie you definitely are NOT  a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Something I suspected all along .

Please explain  :sigh:

It was meant as an encouragement.


If I speak human or angelic languages
but do not have love,
I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy
and understand all mysteries
and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith
so that I can move mountains
but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor,
and if I give my body in order to boast[a]
but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind.
Love does not envy,
is not boastful, is not conceited,
5 does not act improperly,
is not selfish, is not provoked,
and does not keep a record of wrongs.
6 Love finds no joy in unrighteousness
but rejoices in the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, endures all things.


The Holy Spirit Loves.


It is way easier to prove and be approved by your peers for knowledge of the Bible.
Than it is to be approved by your peers and have a reputation for Love.

Love is the proof of the Holy Spirit not biblical Doctrine.
Once I found out that Love was the power behind Christ( not the bible).
My ego and it's ability to be proven right was a secondary issue.

Everything even accurate scriptural interpretations are a secondary issue.

Love is the most important.
Some people will go to great lengths to describe a kind of love that is not love.
Then continue on to elevate something or some doctrine above Love.

Julie you already know this.

Father Loves
Jesus Loves
Holy Spirit Loves

Love is Fathers only pleasure.

Thank you dajomaco   :HeartThrob:


Today has been a little stressful, having started at 3am. Having trouble working out which way is up.  :doh:


Everything you wrote is just music to my soul. Yes, I do know this.


Many Thanks,


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: rosered on October 17, 2013, 03:07:18 AM

    I look at the Spirit of Love   as being balanced    and whom God loves He corrects also 

I believe that the cross of Jesus Christ is a very critical   part that must be  our foundational truth   to build upon 

Amen rose.  Here's how I personally understand it.  I don't believe "love" does away with the rest of the whole counsel of God.  I believe to love includes seeking and following the teachings of God - with His help, all of it - with the leading, empowering, and enablement of the Holy Spirit.  I also believe it will show kindness, do good to others, and turn the other cheek and forgive; but also be willing to speak the truth.  And after lovingly as led, speaking the truth, rather than encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such, will pray for someone's deliverance from their sin and support and encourage them in that process.  Jesus and the early church were about deliverance and victory, not the current form of "acceptance" and "affirming".  And that was/is loving, or the scriptures are wrong or unimportant (which they're not).

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears...

Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2013, 05:59:35 AM

Quote from: rosered on October 17, 2013, 03:07:18 AM

    I look at the Spirit of Love   as being balanced    and whom God loves He corrects also 

I believe that the cross of Jesus Christ is a very critical   part that must be  our foundational truth   to build upon 

Amen rose.  Here's how I personally understand it.  I don't believe "love" does away with the rest of the whole counsel of God.  I believe to love includes seeking and following the teachings of God - with His help, all of it - along with the leading of the Holy Spirit.  I also believe it will show kindness, do good to others, and turn the other cheek and forgive; but also be willing to speak the truth.  And after lovingly as led, speaking the truth, rather than encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such, will pray for someone's deliverance from their sin and support and encourage them in that process.  Jesus and the early church were about deliverance and victory, not the current form of "acceptance" and "affirming".  And that was/is loving, or the scriptures are wrong or unimportant (which they're not).

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears...

Amen James
all are born into the sinful nature in Adam 
Jesus states   we are to  be born again  , become new creatures in Christ glorifying His name   to the Glory of the Father

These  are sound  scriptures not all have read , but those who  have and do are  responsible   to share this truth with those whom do not know   the Truth .

Rom 1:1 This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News. 


Rom 1:2 God promised this Good News long ago through his prophets in the holy Scriptures. 


Rom 1:3 The Good News is about his Son. In his earthly life he was born into King David's family line, 


Rom 1:4 and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit.  He is Jesus Christ our Lord. 


Rom 1:5 Through Christ, God has given us the privilege  and authority as apostles to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name. 
Rom 1:6 And you are included among those Gentiles who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ.   
Rom 1:7 I am writing to all of you in Rome who are loved by God and are called to be his own holy people. May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. 


Rom 1:8 Let me say first that I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith in him is being talked about all over the world. 


Rom 1:9 God knows how often I pray for you. Day and night I bring you and your needs in prayer to God, whom I serve with all my heart  by spreading the Good News about his Son. 


Rom 1:10 One of the things I always pray for is the opportunity, God willing, to come at last to see you. 


Rom 1:11 For I long to visit you so I can bring you some spiritual gift that will help you grow strong in the Lord. 


Rom 1:12 When we get together, I want to encourage you in your faith, but I also want to be encouraged by yours. 


Rom 1:13 I want you to know, dear brothers and sisters, [fn] that I planned many times to visit you, but I was prevented until now. I want to work among you and see spiritual fruit, just as I have seen among other Gentiles. 


Rom 1:14 For I have a great sense of obligation to people in both the civilized world and the rest of the world,  to the educated and uneducated alike. 


Rom 1:15 So I am eager to come to you in Rome, too, to preach the Good News. 


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.   


Rom 1:17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."   

Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.   


Rom 1:19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 


Rom 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 


Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 


Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 


Rom 1:23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. 


Rom 1:24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 


Rom 1:25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 


Rom 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 


Rom 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. 


Rom 1:28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 


Rom 1:29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 


Rom 1:30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 


Rom 1:31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 


Rom 1:32 They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. 

rosie, it's awesome how the Lord is using you tonight to share, through His Words to us, things that I believe He'd have us see.  Thank you for speaking the truth - in love.  I know I personally always need it.   Amen.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2013, 06:42:24 AM
rosie, it's awesome how the Lord is using you tonight to share, through His Words to us, things that I believe He'd have us see.  Thank you for speaking the truth - in love.  I know I personally always need it.   Amen.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

  I always need  the truth too  James,  we are to share the truth   in love with everyone willing to hear
It may not be what we want to hear    but its is certainly what we NEED to hear 
Gods Word  and Spirit   do change   those whom believe and obey HIM
  we become His possesion   and are  no longer   our own . 

We can  all  be thankful to the Father for that
  and  its   about being faithful  to His Word , that the least we can do  , in my opinion

Amen.

Quote from: rosered on October 17, 2013, 07:30:56 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2013, 06:42:24 AM
speaking the truth - in love.  I know I personally always need it.   Amen.

  I always need  the truth too  James,  we are to share the truth   in love with everyone willing to hear
It may not be what we want to hear    but its is certainly what we NEED to hear 

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.  Who can understand it?  Jer. 17:9

Quote from: rosered on October 17, 2013, 07:30:56 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2013, 06:42:24 AM
For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

Blessings.

Julie

As I was going through the thread, I noticed your question to me that I didn't answer: "And one final question: What god are they worshipping that is not sanctioned by Father?"

Without going into a long dissertation about all the different gods they worship, I can say that having fellowship with them is very grievous even though it is well intended by yourself. You have to come outside the Body of Christ to do that. If on the other hand, you are trying to reach them with the Truth who IS Christ then that may or may not be OK. Are you saying that ALLAH (for instance) is the one true God? The devil is very slick and you could end up as a vessel with a mixed cocktail.

The last thing I'd like to offer is, it is wise to heed the counsel of the brethren on such things and if the Amen is there (which I believe it is) you need to open your heart and obey.

I say these things Julie, to you, in love.


Jock   :Pray:

Besides love and faithfulness, Jesus also talked a lot about the need for unity. And the apostles showed in Acts 15 how to achieve unity by consensus. The article on Righteous Government at http://bilib.webs.com shows that all coming to agreement seems to be how God shows His approval of believers' ideas about collaboration. If they don't come to agreement, it's because they have not yet found God's all-loving and all-knowing perspective.

Romans 1:24-27, quoted above, suggests that homosexuality and sexual perversion is sin, but the KJV doesn't say it as explicitly as above. It says sleeping with someone of the same sex is sin. Elsewhere Paul says that drunks and other sinners can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus also said to lust after another person who's not your spouse is a sin.

Sometimes, most people here seem to be willing to admit that we're all sinners, but at other times, like in this thread, many seem to want to think that they're not sinners, but other people are.

Since Jesus wants us to have unity and peace, we need to do that, don't we?

We obviously can't know exactly what God or Jesus considers to be God's word. The Bible says Jesus is our example. See the bilib link above. Most non-Christian bibles include the same morality that Jesus taught. God has reasons for not giving everyone on Earth the same written form of His word. Apparently, He's satisfied that He can give His word directly to anyone with whatever people already have access to. The Bible also says God wants to write His Law or Word in our hearts and minds and elsewhere says what He wants He does. So we don't need bibles to tell us His Word. We only need Him.

So I think we need to be tolerant of our fellow sinners, regardless of their religion or philosophy, if any, and seek unity with anyone who's potentially interested and who believes in not harming anyone.

Quote from: Jock on October 17, 2013, 12:06:18 PM
Julie

As I was going through the thread, I noticed your question to me that I didn't answer: "And one final question: What god are they worshipping that is not sanctioned by Father?"

Without going into a long dissertation about all the different gods they worship, I can say that having fellowship with them is very grievous even though it is well intended by yourself. You have to come outside the Body of Christ to do that. If on the other hand, you are trying to reach them with the Truth who IS Christ then that may or may not be OK. Are you saying that ALLAH (for instance) is the one true God? The devil is very slick and you could end up as a vessel with a mixed cocktail.

The last thing I'd like to offer is, it is wise to heed the counsel of the brethren on such things and if the Amen is there (which I believe it is) you need to open your heart and obey.

I say these things Julie, to you, in love.


Jock   :Pray:

Dear Jock  :HeartThrob: Everything you have said is taken with Love.


I believe every "so called" religion that in "some" way recognizes a single "spirit" that has the greater good for all as their base (this would seem to exclude most of Christianity, but I am not going there) is being used by Father.


Here is my reasoning. There have been perhaps millions of peoples since the advent of Jesus that have NEVER heard of him, let alone any of his teachings. Many will comment on this as such are nothing but heathens fit to be baked in some huge fire. Yet, what father would abandon his children to fend for themselves? A poor father indeed; however, many are so quick to judge our Perfect Loving Father as doing the same. REALLY??  What is perfect or loving in abandonment?


Father is Perfect Love and the great spirit that was/is worshiped by the many American Indian tribes, can we not assume that Father gave these peoples this part of himself for a reason. There are many religions that promote Love and Peace that NEVER new of Jesus. Many say they are evil, but are they?


I really have a hard time with muslims though; thankfully Father judges hearts, because I do not see a lot of fruit worthy of preserving.


But there is a greater question. If Father has provided means for the many foreign religions, is what they practice wrong, if done from a trusting, loving heart in good faith? Also, if they have not been given the ears and eyes to hear and see the truth as given the many here; how can they be wrong. Wrong in whose eyes, certainly not Fathers. Millions of peoples have died not knowing Jesus the man, can we ever be so sure that they NEVER knew Jesus the Christ?


Lastly and perhaps most importantly. What road does NOT lead to Salvation, it is not as if any can escape it, can they. Of what sense is there being a Christian and looking down on all other peoples. Did not the Scribes and Pharisee's do the very same things in Jesus's time? Does not the majority of Christian churches do the same still? Jesus said it was time to worship Father in Spirit, perhaps it is the Christian and Muslim religions that reject this concept the most and persist on the physical.


Yes, the devil is slick, but we must always look within before we ever look without. Come out of her, we were told. Millions were never in her, millions will never leave. Up is down and White is black.


The last shall become first and the first shall be last.
   
Mat 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.  (Lest we forget)

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie and Lloyd

I offer a two verses, John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels

It sounds like you have both made up your minds. A long time ago, I lived in Oregon and there was a Unity church right across the street from us. Right above the front door was the Eye of Horus or "The all seeing eye". I did go to a Unity meeting once and to find that they teach Metaphysics, exit stage left!

I don't think myself better than those folks nor do I think I'm a Pharisee?? I'm just very grateful that my Lord Jesus Christ is in my heart, spirit and mind.

Take care

Jock.  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2013, 05:59:35 AM

Quote from: rosered on October 17, 2013, 03:07:18 AM

    I look at the Spirit of Love   as being balanced    and whom God loves He corrects also 

I believe that the cross of Jesus Christ is a very critical   part that must be  our foundational truth   to build upon 

Amen rose.  Here's how I personally understand it.  I don't believe "love" does away with the rest of the whole counsel of God.  I believe to love includes seeking and following the teachings of God - with His help, all of it - with the leading, empowering, and enablement of the Holy Spirit.  I also believe it will show kindness, do good to others, and turn the other cheek and forgive; but also be willing to speak the truth.  And after lovingly as led, speaking the truth, rather than encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such, will pray for someone's deliverance from their sin and support and encourage them in that process.  Jesus and the early church were about deliverance and victory, not the current form of "acceptance" and "affirming".  And that was/is loving, or the scriptures are wrong or unimportant (which they're not).

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears...

encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such,
To be concerned about other peoples sin.
IS SIN
The only people who encourage open rebellious sin are Christians.
There uncaring attitude is anathema to GOD. 

GOD is not Mocked.

Jabcat every time you sin it is open and rebellious.

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

Quote from: Jock on October 17, 2013, 07:01:40 PM
Julie and Lloyd

I offer a two verses, John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels

It sounds like you have both made up your minds. A long time ago, I lived in Oregon and there was a Unity church right across the street from us. Right above the front door was the Eye of Horus or "The all seeing eye". I did go to a Unity meeting once and to find that they teach Metaphysics, exit stage left!

I don't think myself better than those folks nor do I think I'm a Pharisee?? I'm just very grateful that my Lord Jesus Christ is in my heart, spirit and mind.

Take care

Jock.  :Chinscratch:

Just as He is in mine Jock. There is such a peace, Love and understanding that is as calming as a sea breeze and as warm as snuggly blanket. I do not see myself better than anyone, not even the worst of the worst. Because I truly know, that there is nothing that I did on my own that has granted me the Love and Peace I am now.


My mantra is: I am Love, I am Peace and I am Light.


My sole purpose is spread the fruits of the Spirit of Love in all I do. I feel no animosity towards no person, object or thing. I ask Father only one thing and that is too always be the strongest beacon of His light that I can be.


I do not profess to be smart or wise, but if I can encourage anyone to do anything, it is to be still and know that Father is God. I just believe that millions have been doing this since the beginning of time.


You may say that I have made my mind up. However, I am honest enough to see our Father as the Perfect Father. I see him HATING none of his children, because to Hate them, he must hate himself because all are of Him through our Lord Jesus Christ. All were created in His image, I have simply been given to see all as Fathers children, all in need of Love and all of the fruits of Love.


You take care too Jock,


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

"5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

God will vivify all mankind, but only some are chosen to be vivified for eonian life. The rest will not be tortured alive in fire. They will be dead, reposing, until the consummation of the eons when they too will be vivified.

Those who die as unbelievers will see Christ at the great white throne before they die the second death. So even they will come to the Father through Christ by sight not by faith. The dead are not conscious of anything. The very next thing they know after they die will be that they are alive again, and God will be all in all.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

...no process of repentance and the passing away of the outer man with renewal of the inner man?

More and more I believe the Holy Feast Days of ancient Israel portrayed / prophesied the two advents of Jesus.. with Day of Atonement(DOA) being a long day of that very process of repentance and the passing away/dying of the outer man with renewal of the inner man, for the 2nd resurrection..

I believe all things our Father does (with man and in the sight of man) has, and is, an important teaching lesson.. this seems very logical to me..
       :Chinscratch: :icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 07:05:34 PM

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

Dajomaco, I feel exactly the same way. To focus on the shortcomings of the world is nothing more than focusing on the failure of Christ of FORGIVING all sins.


If they are forgiven, why should "I" have to worry about them. I shouldn't unless someone else's well being is being threatened. How little faith would I have if all I see is the sins of the world. I choose to see the goodness and the Love that is everywhere. Love covers a multitude of sin, not sin, a multitude of love.


FAITH - That Father's Will will be Done on His Time
HOPE - That greets me each morning and is with as I sleep each night
LOVE - All that I Father has given me and All that He has given everyone. All that He is.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: marie glen on October 17, 2013, 07:43:54 PM

...no process of repentance and the passing away of the outer man with renewal of the inner man?

More and more I believe the Holy Feast Days of ancient Israel portrayed / prophesied the two advents of Jesus.. with Day of Atonement(DOA) being a long day of that very process of repentance and the passing away/dying of the outer man with renewal of the inner man, for the 2nd resurrection..

I believe all things our Father does (with man and in the sight of man) has, and is, an important teaching lesson.. this seems very logical to me..
       :Chinscratch: :icon_jokercolor:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html

 

Dear Daj

Not   for a minute do  we think ourselves righteous , not self righteous 
Its not fair to  judge anyone
  But   I know for a fact  after reading many scriptures  , God puts it in our hearts   to warn    all of us   to repent , change our minds   before any coming judgment is set on a  person , city or country  , The bible is  full of many  mistreated    souls whom  perished   warning  all that they themselves are being judged along with the rest of the  rebellious  ones !

  But they escaped the  wrath of God

Your right God is not mocked 
  and what do you think Jesus meant when He said , I will come to you suddenly and fight against them with the SWORD OF MY MOUTH ?  Rev 2 :16
  praying for one another is key to   GOD forgiving  trespass 
I know when the fiery trials come upon my own life , I now know its God chastening me , not the devil /adversary      and need for a change of heart
Only a fool would think they are not going to be judged , judgment begins in the house of God  first !
there is NO condemnation to those who are  found hidden in Jesus  Christ , but making sure you are hid in Christ  and not some other    Jesus  or gospel ! there is no other foundation to be laid  but  Jesus Christ  ,  thats the whole point in a nutshell .

Quoteencourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such,
To be concerned about other peoples sin.
IS SIN
The only people who encourage open rebellious sin are Christians.
There uncaring attitude is anathema to GOD. 

GOD is not Mocked.

Jabcat every time you sin it is open and rebellious.

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 07:05:34 PM


encourage open rebellious sin or an uncaring attitude regarding such,
To be concerned about other peoples sin.
IS SIN
The only people who encourage open rebellious sin are Christians.
There uncaring attitude is anathema to GOD. 

GOD is not Mocked.

Jabcat every time you sin it is open and rebellious.

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

How do you know I sin?  Just kidding.   :laughing7:

Some of this is in direct response to your post(s), some of it to others - some of it to myself.

No one has said love's bad, or even that it's not paramount.  Let's all try to keep things in accurate perspective.  However, there's much more to reality than just hugging everybody (literally/figuratively), and I believe much else is being ignored in this discussion.  I DON'T believe we should be sin-focused, nor that we should judge others and go around picking at their sins and giving them a hard time over it.  We should be JESUS-focused.   However, OTOH,  it's NOT "sin" to be aware of what the scriptures teach as sin, tell that truth in love when the opportunity arises and we're truly led to, and try to help people overcome anything they/we need help with. IMO, that is indeed loving - when done in the right attitude and for the right reasons - to be obedient to God and restore others (and ourselves when we need it) to the kingdom.     When Jesus was around people, He ministered to them, telling them the truth ("My Words judge them"), delivered, and admonished them to sin no more.  Also reference all of Paul's admonitions to the ecclesia.  There's a lot of slandering of Christians, and some of it earned.  However, much of its not, and is simply mockery.    If Jesus or Paul entered into a group of people who were blatantly promoting and overlooking the fact that many in that group worshiped Mohammed, Buddha, or generally rejected Him in various ways - and vehemently and openly taught that things clearly against the scriptures didn't matter and sin was OK, we just needed to be nice to each other and it would all work out - honestly, what are we shown in scriptures they would do?  (Love them, YES - what else?).   

I believe it's prudent to recognize the difference between someone struggling, failing, and their flesh sinning - which even the strongest believers do (of which I am not), vs. someone hardening their heart, continuing unrepentant in their sin, and searing their conscience as Paul describes.  And then being turned over to the lusts of their flesh, suffer the consequences by being destroyed by it.  And further, then an organization, group of people, or even an individual, putting their stamp of approval on that behavior, encouraging them, and sharing in their deceit by teaching there's nothing wrong with it and sitting in "fellowship" in their presence - in direct opposition to the scriptures "How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!."  Psalm 1:1   (do we just "love" such scriptures and admonitions away, a.k.a., ignore them?)    That's what I'm discussing and pointing out in this thread.  I often am unable to, but I also think it's important to use scriptures in context and rightly divided.   Now, I need to spend the day, with His help because that's the only way it can be done, loving those with whom I disagree.  :)

Quote from: marie glen on October 17, 2013, 07:43:54 PM

...no process of repentance and the passing away of the outer man with renewal of the inner man?

More and more I believe the Holy Feast Days of ancient Israel portrayed / prophesied the two advents of Jesus.. with Day of Atonement(DOA) being a long day of that very process of repentance and the passing away/dying of the outer man with renewal of the inner man, for the 2nd resurrection..

I believe all things our Father does (with man and in the sight of man) has, and is, an important teaching lesson.. this seems very logical to me..
       :Chinscratch: :icon_jokercolor:

I am convinced   of this too Marie !
  we do  all judge one another and    are instruments  in   the LOrds hands   the left and right hands of power

this is why its said blessed is he who is in the  first ressurection  ,  for the 2nd death holds no power over them !

  what power are we  talking about  exactly
  for me its always been being found dead  in Christ   and Christ will raise you up  into His Body
  the warning of the  7 churches always had an effect on me personally
   when we get to a lukewarm  state of being  , are are judged as being  spued out of His mouth
  making us  prey with no help , out on your own so to speak

And its  a horrible  condition to not be  in the world anylonger nor in Christ either  , making us a twice dead  and useless    situation  , thats just scary to me 

  I do believe Gods word is a Sword/ Word and Spirit   that cuts  deep  both ways  into the soul and spirit in ALL mankind   and His judgments are just and fair

  God always warned  by sending someone to warn first before inpending doom/judgment     , He sent His Son last to wrap it all up quickly    .

       

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 17, 2013, 07:47:22 PM

Quote from: dajomaco on October 17, 2013, 07:05:34 PM

I have faith that Jesus' obedience to God will and can erase your sin.
So I don't think about you and or any one else's sin that much unless some one
who is blind and they can't see their sin.

FAITH HOPE LOVE.

To some these are just words.
To me they are living conduits of power.

I have a favorite.

Dajomaco, I feel exactly the same way. To focus on the shortcomings of the world is nothing more than focusing on the failure of Christ of FORGIVING all sins.


If they are forgiven, why should "I" have to worry about them. I shouldn't unless someone else's well being is being threatened. How little faith would I have if all I see is the sins of the world. I choose to see the goodness and the Love that is everywhere. Love covers a multitude of sin, not sin, a multitude of love.


FAITH - That Father's Will will be Done on His Time
HOPE - That greets me each morning and is with as I sleep each night
LOVE - All that I Father has given me and All that He has given everyone. All that He is.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Love is great, love is important, love is vital.  As I said a few weeks ago, Julie keep loving - and everyone, including myself - however God TRULY leads - not according to what the world says love is or what our imagination says it is.

Re: the quote, I don't believe everyone's forgiven yet, just as everyone's not saved yet.

IMO, to believe some of the things being said by three members in this thread is ignoring most of the scripture - taking out of context, and picking and choosing what "fits" or has a "good" sound or feeling to it..   :2c:


"worship in Spirit               and truth."     Only with God's help can we do that, but may we be willing.

Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2013, 08:34:57 PM
I don't believe everyone's forgiven yet, just as everyone's not saved yet.  IMO, to believe some of the things being said by three members in this thread is ignoring most of the scripture - taking out of context, and picking and choosing what "fits".   :2c:

I know you do not believe everyone is forgiven, or saved. I do hope you believe this....

Rom 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

Rom 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

James, I see the spirit in which image all are of Christ himself. I do not wish to ever see ONLY the results of a fleshly being born in to sin. To do so is to deny the divinity; regardless, of how tiny it is in all.

Jhn 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Can you please explain why you look down on those that Father has held from Christ?

1 Pet 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Father has chosen some well in advance to be obedient to Jesus Christ, these will NOT speak on their own but Father will give the words through the Spirit of Love and Truth.
   
Mat 10:20
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

What is the big Picture James? What is the endgame? I could careless the many plays that we who are yet bathed in Sin try and ultimately fail. No matter how hard we try, we can do nothing. Even Jesus the man knew that He could do NOTHING on his own.

Jhn 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Now please don't say: "Ha!! HE Judges, so do I!" He was born the perfect man, we into sin. Jesus did not know sin so how much fairer his judgments over ours.

The big picture is that we must Love as Jesus commanded us too. We must Trust in all that we have been given. We must NEVER lean on our own understanding and if we had faith in the amount of a mustard seed we could move mountains. Our Faith is severely lacking, so how could we possibly trust Father to do the right thing?

The EndGame is all standing before the KING and his Son. All having been cleansed and as pure as snow. The Light of Spirit in whose image we all are, will be shining brighter than the brightest star. If such a vision isn't enough to greet everyday and every problem with a smile and a joyous heart then I simply do not know why. We are free James, free from the issues of the world, from stress or worry, free to LOVE as it was in the image of Love we were created.

You may think that I pick and choose through the Scriptures, but I promise you, it is not the journey that has my attention, but the destination. We are coming Home James, let's Love, Laugh and be as Joyous as joy can be in Everything, because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. Nothing matters other than we be the Love that we are, seeking the highest good for all, always.

Fathers will, will be done and that is a given and all will come to the knowledge of the truth. (1Tim 2:4)

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on October 17, 2013, 09:16:56 PM

James,  I do not wish to ever see ONLY the results of a fleshly being born in to sin.

That's good, I agree, and no one's said or is saying any different.  The quoted scriptures of course I agree with as well.  Many of your interpretations and applications, I don't.  And many of mine, you apparently don't.  Mainly, above all, I believe Jesus is the perfect Sacrifice and Savior, the only Way to the Father as the scriptures teach.

I had hopes of some reconciliation.  It looks like we're just going to disagree though on many things - so I'll choose to not keep beating on the same things I personally understand as error, unless they keep being brought up by others (and I do know I have my own areas of error/lack of understanding/ability as well).  If there's a possibility of error though, I believe I should lean toward the scriptures, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed - rather than what is a trap for myself as well as others - on feelings, on my own mind, on what the world says is right, or on just a few scriptures here or there out of context, ignoring the rest that don't feel quite as good or fit our own personal philosophy.  I believe we all, including myself, need continued empowerment, revelation, guidance, understanding, and obedience - as well as, yes, love, joy, and peace - IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. 

Who is Saved?
The Bible definitely says Jesus is our example. Obviously, what it means to be saved is to follow his example. Putting all of the Bible quotes together comes to a statement like that: To be saved is to follow Jesus' example of Love toward all.

Many like to talk about "faith" in "Jesus", but the Greek word translated "faith" is actually "faithful". So we're saved by being faithful to following Jesus' example.

Many like to think salvation requires speaking Jesus' name or stating faith in Jesus' name, but the Greek word for "name" actually meant "authority". So it's not his name that's important; it's his authority, which surely means the authority of his faithfulness to the Father, his being/behaving in the Image/Likeness of the Father, which is the Ideal of Love for all.

You don't need to know the Bible or Jesus' name or God's name to be faithful to the authority of God's Love for all. The Bible has certainly helped to teach humanity that truth and that's surely why God made the Bible widely available to much of the world. But God doesn't need anything physical to teach us of His truth. And that must be why He hasn't made the Bible available to everyone.

Therefore, I don't believe those who do not claim to be Christian, but who do follow Jesus' example of Love for all, even if they never heard of Jesus, are saved.

I believe it's just as much a sin to eat too much food (or even to eat for pleasure rather than for health) as it is to engage in a homosexual act or fantasy.

I do support promoting the Bible to the world, because it seems to explain how to follow Jesus' example better than does any other physical writing. But it's not a basis for judging whether someone is saved or not.

I've never had much fear of God. The word for fear in the Bible is said to mean awe. I do happen to be in awe of God, now and then. I think that being afraid of being punished or left out by not following the letter of the Bible is a sign of distrust of God, which is due to being raised by the traditions of men who wrongly teach fear of God instead of God's Love for all.

"not needing to know who Jesus is, or calling on Him, or confessing Him, but just following His example ("love for all") means one is saved"..

Multiple scriptures say otherwise. 

Here are 2 for example;

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.


Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved...

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?

or on just a few scriptures here or there out of context, ignoring the rest that don't feel quite as good or fit our own personal philosophy.


When  we can have the notion that we don't have are own personnel philosophy.
But the other guy or gal does. It is already a vortex.

Words and proving words is a game that does not include Love.

I have heard from the pulpit too many times how Christians have a real Love.
The other religions have a world love or man love or emotion love.

There is ONE GOD ONE LOVE.

We look for proofs of this real love.
God gave us proof his SON.

Every one who belongs to one of the major world religions
Judaism
Christianity
Muslim
Buddhist.

To sit in any of these temples or cathedrals.
Means absolutely nothing.
It is important what is going on in the sitters mind and heart.

I have never met a person at a Christian church who believed what Jesus said
That to look upon a women and lust is sin.(  the same sin as homo sin)

Each church has it's own philosophy as to the order and rank of sin.

They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving,[t] and unmerciful.

If we allowed one hundred people in our church.

No Gays allowed 4or 5%.      We have 95 peoples left in church
No Greed allowed                   We have  20 peoples left in church
No murders allowed                 We have 99 peoples left in church
No quarrels allowed                 We have 1 peoples left in church.
No deceit  allowed                   We have 25 peoples left in church
No malice allowed                   We have 36 peoples left in church.
No gossip allowed                    We have 2 peoples left in church.

My point is that we all have our personnel philosophy when it comes to SIN
This worlds wisdom says there are degrees of Sin and there are degrees of punishment.
This is a philosophy that every rational mind can agree with.

I am trying to put on the irrational mind of Christ.
To see sin is easy.
I believe that Gods spirit sees something entirely different.
While we were dead spiritually that was when we attracted the Spirit of God.
 

"When  we can have the notion that we don't have are own personnel philosophy.
But the other guy or gal does."


No one has said anything like this.  I used the word "our".  Believe me, I've done it, but I do believe it's best to not just imagine things or make them up as we go.  That's what the scriptures are for. It sorrows me that apparently too many have less than an appropriate use/respect for them.
------------


"I have heard from the pulpit too many times how Christians have a real Love.
The other religions have a world love or man love or emotion love."

I guess if other so-called "holy" books were just as relevant and Spirit-breathed as the Judeo-Christian scriptures, what you say you've heard from the pulpit could be legitimately disputed.  I haven't read it, but I imagine most of the "holy" books teach some kind of love.  But they don't teach Jesus the Sacrifice and Savior.  There-in lies a crucial difference, and I believe in essence, the scriptures teach that's the starting point.

----------


"Every one who belongs to one of the major world religions
Judaism
Christianity
Muslim
Buddhist.

To sit in any of these temples or cathedrals.
Means absolutely nothing.
It is important what is going on in the sitters mind and heart."



I'm not sure how to answer this, as it doesn't directly address any issues I've personally intended.  I've talked about obvious, organized, promoted, anti-scriptural deceit (or yes, even as individuals as well).   We all err, but not all habitually, uncaringly, unrepentantly sin and teach others to do so;  i.e., being a bastard and/or deceiver, instead of a child of God who is called back in repentance and maintains fellowship.  It's a hard saying, I don't fully understand it, and hits me in the gut.  But John said that person does not know God and is a child of the devil. I John 3:10. 

  Psalm 1:1, as well as many other scriptures regarding mixing light and darkness, what fellowship has light with darkness, etc.?  They still count. :)
--------------------


"I have never met a person at a Christian church who believed what Jesus said
That to look upon a women and lust is sin.  (  the same sin as homo sin)"

Unless you've only gone to totally wacked-out churches, I simply don't believe this.  I'd suggest you just didn't know it - because it's a commonly believed teaching in numerous more conservative (read, "Bible-believing") churches.  I've heard it all my life - literally, for 50 years.   I'm not really talking about "churches" as the focal point anyway.  Again, I'm referencing what do the scriptures say?
----------

"Each church has it's own philosophy as to the order and rank of sin."

:dontknow:  not sure what that has to do with the scriptures.  My main points have not been to talk about "churches".

---------------------

"They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving,[t] and unmerciful.

If we allowed one hundred people in our church.

No Gays allowed 4or 5%.      We have 95 peoples left in church
No Greed allowed                   We have  20 peoples left in church
No murders allowed                 We have 99 peoples left in church
No quarrels allowed                 We have 1 peoples left in church.
No deceit  allowed                   We have 25 peoples left in church
No malice allowed                   We have 36 peoples left in church.
No gossip allowed                    We have 2 peoples left in church."


Again, I'm not sure this directly addresses what I've said.  I've never said sinners shouldn't be allowed in the church.  We all sin.  I'd just reference the difference noted earlier about weakness of the flesh and failing, vs. hardening ones' heart, searing ones' conscience, and deceiving and being deceived - i.e., wolves in sheep's clothing - teaching apostacy and devouring the flock.  Paul described it in detail (Romans, Corinthians, etc.).
-----------------------


"My point is that we all have our personnel philosophy when it comes to SIN
This worlds wisdom says there are degrees of Sin and there are degrees of punishment.
This is a philosophy that every rational mind can agree with.

I am trying to put on the irrational mind of Christ.
To see sin is easy.
I believe that Gods spirit sees something entirely different.
While we were dead spiritually that was when we attracted the Spirit of God."

While we're trying to put something on, I'd just suggest we test it and make sure it's not in direct opposition with the Word of God.   
-----------------


Jesus and Paul would love.  But they also wouldn't stick their head in the sand and hum away the "bad stuff", and they DIDN"T teach that it wasn't important to be aware, watchful, and warn others (while examining ourselves).  So again, besides loving, what else did they say, do, and admonish us to do about sin, deceit, and apostacy?   (Search the scriptures, not relying on our own mind, feelings, or what's popularly said.  The truth is getting less and less popular.  But I believe it needs to be sought, revealed, and then spoken in love.  Grace to you, James.   

Quote from: Lloyd on October 18, 2013, 02:54:41 AM
Who is Saved?
The Bible definitely says Jesus is our example. Obviously, what it means to be saved is to follow his example. Putting all of the Bible quotes together comes to a statement like that: To be saved is to follow Jesus' example of Love toward all.

Many like to talk about "faith" in "Jesus", but the Greek word translated "faith" is actually "faithful". So we're saved by being faithful to following Jesus' example.

Many like to think salvation requires speaking Jesus' name or stating faith in Jesus' name, but the Greek word for "name" actually meant "authority". So it's not his name that's important; it's his authority, which surely means the authority of his faithfulness to the Father, his being/behaving in the Image/Likeness of the Father, which is the Ideal of Love for all.

You don't need to know the Bible or Jesus' name or God's name to be faithful to the authority of God's Love for all. The Bible has certainly helped to teach humanity that truth and that's surely why God made the Bible widely available to much of the world. But God doesn't need anything physical to teach us of His truth. And that must be why He hasn't made the Bible available to everyone.

Therefore, I don't believe those who do not claim to be Christian, but who do follow Jesus' example of Love for all, even if they never heard of Jesus, are saved.

I believe it's just as much a sin to eat too much food (or even to eat for pleasure rather than for health) as it is to engage in a homosexual act or fantasy.

I do support promoting the Bible to the world, because it seems to explain how to follow Jesus' example better than does any other physical writing. But it's not a basis for judging whether someone is saved or not.

I've never had much fear of God. The word for fear in the Bible is said to mean awe. I do happen to be in awe of God, now and then. I think that being afraid of being punished or left out by not following the letter of the Bible is a sign of distrust of God, which is due to being raised by the traditions of men who wrongly teach fear of God instead of God's Love for all.

My definition of saved is probably different that yours.
I was saved from the fruitless effort of trying to please God.
All religions including Christianity profess to teach you how to please God.

Jesus pleased the Father
The Holy Spirit encourages me celebrate that Jesus did for me
what I could not do myself.
I am free. Free to praise God.
I don't praise God to please him.
I praise God that God is already pleased.
Jesus I know pleases God
God is full of Love .So open your receivers and receive.
   

QuoteSo again, besides loving, what else did they say, do, and admonish us to do about sin, deceit, and apostacy?   (Search the scriptures, not relying on our own mind, feelings, or what's popularly said.

The scriptures at the time of Jesus and Paul was the Old Testament. But Jesus said he came not to destroy the Law, the Old Testament, but to fulfill it, where destroy means to teach incorrectly and fulfill means teach correctly. There are hundreds of quotes from the Old Testament in the New Testament, but the New Testament wasn't written for some years after Jesus' death apparently.

Regarding the passages in Acts 16 and Romans 9, I take the phrase "believe in Jesus Christ" to mean "follow his example of Love for all" and the phrase "confess him with your mouth" to mean "speak to others with Love" and when Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to them" I think it means they told them about Jesus' message of Love for all.  We can all say we believe anything, but it's not really believing unless we act on those beliefs. Isn't that why Jesus criticized those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do his commandments?

Quote from: Lloyd on October 18, 2013, 06:08:38 AM

QuoteSo again, besides loving, what else did they say, do, and admonish us to do about sin, deceit, and apostacy?   (Search the scriptures, not relying on our own mind, feelings, or what's popularly said.

Regarding the passages in Acts 16 and Romans 9, I take the phrase "believe in Jesus Christ" to mean "follow his example of Love for all" and the phrase "confess him with your mouth" to mean "speak to others with Love" and when Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to them" I think it means they told them about Jesus' message of Love for all. 

Hi Loyd. IMO, that's a pretty slippery slope.  We could pretty much do that with any scripture, to try to make it all fit what/where we personally want.  "No prophecy of scripture (a divinely inspired utterance, instruction, exhortation, or revelation) is of private interpretation".  2 Peter 1:20   The point being, we best be sure and careful and not play too loosely with it.  But Lloyd, is it accurate to say you don't really rely on the scriptures all that much, or not?  If that's not correct, I apologize, but I'm getting that sense.

As far as "Lord, Lord", no, that's not what I think it "simply" means.  I believe there's more to it than that, including taking into account the whole precept of being saved by grace through the gift of faith to believe Jesus as Savior and Lord as the scriptures teach, rather than by works.

Quote from: Lloyd on October 18, 2013, 06:08:38 AM
Isn't that why Jesus criticized those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do his commandments?

To me Lloyd, along with the "saved by grace not works" issue Paul was so adamant about, there's this;  by the theory of "love and you're saved", if someone loved even once, or was kind to someone even once, or said something loving even once, wouldn't that mean they knew Jesus a little bit or were saved a little bit?  What He said in that passage is, "I NEVER knew you".  So according to my understanding, those folks mentioned who come saying "Lord, Lord", were never (yet) given the free gift of faith to believe on Him as Savior, as the Holy Spirit through Paul said we must - thus He never knew them.

Quote from: Lloyd on October 18, 2013, 06:08:38 AMRegarding the passages in Acts 16 and Romans 9, I take the phrase "believe in Jesus Christ" to mean "follow his example of Love for all" and the phrase "confess him with your mouth" to mean "speak to others with Love" and when Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to them" I think it means they told them about Jesus' message of Love for all.  We can all say we believe anything, but it's not really believing unless we act on those beliefs. Isn't that why Jesus criticized those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do his commandments?

Lloyd, that's 100% correct but not 100% complete.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Love is core part of Jesus' teachings, I think no one argues otherwise.
Verse 36 states The God needs to be a core part of that love. Not just any god or love without God.
Verse 40 mentions laws that are based on love. Meaning following those laws in an expression of love. What exactly those laws are is a whole new discussion but I assume everyone agrees the laws includes no murder and no theft. Sure murdering  someone isn't an act of love but the law includes less obvious things.
The point is that love in itself isn't always correct. Muslims love allah. But that's not the kind of love Jesus was promoting. ETs love the great justice of God when He roasts billions without an end. But that wasn't the love Jesus was trying to teach.

So.... love most certainly is what it's about, but we need to read all/many verses to understand what God's definition of love is...

There are things out there that appear to be "good" but are really wicked.

Paul warned: 
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

To go off to do this in the name of love is nothing more than dead works. Dead works is when there is a chasm between us and Christ. If we try to breach that chasm, that is dead works, only Christ can breach the chasm.

Principalities and powers are massively powerful angels who can appear as an angel of light and can deceive many. There is always safety found in the Body of Christ!  1Cor12:12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ

To sit with people who deny Christ or deny His Soverienty and speak of Christ and try to fellowship in the spirit is a type of spiritual fornication.

I have an idea, instead of this back and forward debate (it's like watching a tennis match  :rolllol:) why don't you guys pray about this for a couple of weeks, put it on the back burner and if after the two weeks, it's still as strong, then do what is in your heart to do. I don't see anyone here condemning you, just speaking the truth in love.

Jock  :Pray:

A peek at the unity/universalist church:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FGM7CBJLHc

QuoteSo.... love most certainly is what it's about, but we need to read all/many verses to understand what God's definition of love is...

I'd say some of us need to read many verses, but some need not read any, to know what Love means, since God probably determines largely whether a person has understanding.

Fear of Being Taken in by Deceitful Devils
I don't think fear is really helpful for anyone, but caution certainly is. The Bible might be considered a book of caution as well as good news. It gives many examples of people who were taken in by foolish ideas and suffered greatly or were ruined or physically died as a result.

Now, some or many of you are applying this caution to those of us who believe that people do not need to "know or believe in Jesus Christ" in order to be saved. Although most English versions of the Bible say that sort of thing, we know that Jesus' teachings are largely symbolic, and the Bible says Jesus taught the disciples things that he never preached publicly, because the public could not understand.

The main reasons I'm not persuaded that anyone needs to profess belief in Jesus to be saved are: 1) There doesn't seem to be any reason for God to care if anyone believes in a person with a certain name, appearance and title; 2) God has provided proof that the Bibles we have are corrupted, but doesn't tell us how much they're corrupted, at least up to now.

But what does make sense of the whole Bible, not just small parts, is that God wants us all to learn to behave in the same way Jesus behaved. And to believe in something must mean to actually do the thing believed in, not just give lip service.

Has anyone ever had an addiction? I did. Do you know what it's like to escape from an addiction? I do. That's what I believe salvation is. My main addiction was overeating. By following Biblical principles taught by others I let go of many of the bad thinking habits that caused my addiction. Then God released me from the addiction. That's when I first started thinking the idea of "salvation" might be real. Here's a Bible quote on gluttony:  Philippians 3:18-19 (ESV) For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

This thread is locked until further notice.  I'm waiting on further directions from Gary, but in the meantime, TM is not a place to promote other religions, argue for the acceptance/overlooking of flaunted sin, trash and discount the scriptures (no, just because someone actually believes them doesn't mean they're making them an idol - get real), tell people that whatever they believe (or not) they're just fine and already saved/it doesn't matter - or that nothing else in the whole world or the scriptures matter except "love" (deceit)..  This is a place, as the new member said, that is to be a refuge, not only from the world, but from within the ecclesia itself from wolves in sheep's clothing, or at least those that for whatever reason insist on teaching in direct opposition to the scriptures (or twist them beyond recognition, or even totally discount them).

If Gary tells me differently, I'll let you know.  In the meantime, drastically change directions and get back to the purpose of the boards.  It would probably do well, for whoever decides to stay, to read or re-read the Expectations/FAQ, Guidelines, and what Gary has written regarding "TM's Beliefs on Universal Reconciliation" in that section.  Posting at TM indicates an agreement to abide by those guidelines.

James