Annihilationism vs Universalism

[Tom]

Thanks Tom.

A question for you, do you believe that we are living out the judgement here in this life? That the chastening we experience from the Lord's hand will find it's fullness at the Great White Throne?

Jock

Those who died as unbelievers will be raised to be judged before the great white throne where they will be condemned to the second death during which time they couldn't be chastened because the dead are not conscious.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

We believers won't be judged at the great white throne because we're justified through Christ, and we will already have been vivified and snatched away a thousand years before that. We believers will be requited at the dais of Christ.

"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

"13 Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation.
14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him.
15 For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
16 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first.
17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.
18 So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheDais/index.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

If all the dead great and small pass before the great white throne, and those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are cast into the lake of pur(fire) and theon(brimstone/purifying agent)....it stands to reason that the second death may be different in nature than the first death, since the scriptures would be contradicting themselves or even mocking themselves by stating that there will be kolassis in the fire- Jesus himself describing it as singularly unpleasant. For instance, when Paul wrtes of widows who are taken ontot he church rolls as intercessors who then go back to seeking a man or become busybodies etc, he says "they are dead even while they live"- yet, they are conscious- but just not conscious of God.

When Paul says, "As in Adam all men died"- it is for the reader to decide if Adam, who remained conscious for hundreds of years really died, and what that death was/is before it is fulfilled in actual physical death.

I personally believe the second death obviously involves consciousness because if you sleep through kolassis it is no kolassis at all. If you are unconscious of it or non existent in it you ARE NOT experiencing it and therefore could not be changed by it.

Paul speaks frequently of "the wrath to come" and it is very real in my opinion, whatever it is.

Also, it is for the reader to decide when the word dead/death is reffering to the state of unregenerated man or a man who has become nothing when the context is not clear. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It cannot receive the things f God. It knows nothing. Sheol opens its mouth wide to swallow the dead. Many of them are dead even as they live because they walk "in the valley of the shadow of death" rather than "abide under the shadow of the Almighty" which is life.

It seems to me that while insisting on one literal understanding(the dead know nothing) and enforcing it across the board to govern the understanding of what the second death is....we deny another literal understanding(they will be tormented day and night in the presence of God and His holy messengers). IMO, this is illogical and a failure of exegesis- in any case, we cannot hav it both ways at the same time.

[Jock]

Eaglesway

It seems to me if I understand correctly that the LOF that you describe, is Hell. I believe that those cast in, will immediately die but the Grace of God found in Christ's sacrifice will re-vivify them from ash "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" The only difference I see in your description is that the LOF will ultimately go out.

:dontknow:

Jock

At the end of the day, we will need to trust God Himself and when we see His just judgement, we will agree.

[Tom]

If all the dead great and small pass before the great white throne, and those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are cast into the lake of pur(fire) and theon(brimstone/purifying agent)....it stands to reason that the second death may be different in nature than the first death, since the scriptures would be contradicting themselves or even mocking themselves by stating that there will be kolassis in the fire- Jesus himself describing it as singularly unpleasant. For instance, when Paul wrtes of widows who are taken ontot he church rolls as intercessors who then go back to seeking a man or become busybodies etc, he says "they are dead even while they live"- yet, they are conscious- but just not conscious of God.

When Paul says, "As in Adam all men died"- it is for the reader to decide if Adam, who remained conscious for hundreds of years really died, and what that death was/is before it is fulfilled in actual physical death.

I personally believe the second death obviously involves consciousness because if you sleep through kolassis it is no kolassis at all. If you are unconscious of it or non existent in it you ARE NOT experiencing it and therefore could not be changed by it.

Paul speaks frequently of "the wrath to come" and it is very real in my opinion, whatever it is.

Also, it is for the reader to decide when the word dead/death is reffering to the state of unregenerated man or a man who has become nothing when the context is not clear. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It cannot receive the things f God. It knows nothing. Sheol opens its mouth wide to swallow the dead. Many of them are dead even as they live because they walk "in the valley of the shadow of death" rather than "abide under the shadow of the Almighty" which is life.

It seems to me that while insisting on one literal understanding(the dead know nothing) and enforcing it across the board to govern the understanding of what the second death is....we deny another literal understanding(they will be tormented day and night in the presence of God and His holy messengers). IMO, this is illogical and a failure of exegesis- in any case, we cannot hav it both ways at the same time.

As I said before, bro, we have different perspectives even though we agree on the ultimate salvation of all mankind.

I realize that death is used both literally and figuratively in scripture, but I believe those mortals in the lake of fire condemned to the second death will be literally dead and therefore not conscious of any "kolasin" or "chastening."

I believe "all the dead...before the great white throne" that you refer to are those who died as unbelievers because we believers will have already been made alive never to die again when Christ meets us in the air a thousand years before the great white throne judgement.

I believe the "kolasin" or "chastening" of Matthew 25:46 refers to the live nations being judged according to how they dealt with Israel not the dead who are raised a thousand years later to be judged before the great white throne.

I believe Adam and Eve did not die when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but they began the process of dying which we all experience during our lives.

"But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you must not eat from it; for on the day you eat from it, to die you shall be dying." (Genesis 2:17)

"But the serpent said to the woman: Not to die shall you be dying; for Elohim knows that on the day you eat of it your eyes will be unclosed, and you will become like Elohim, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4,5)

I believe only those who died as unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and condemned to the second death, but those of us in the body of Christ will be saved from indignation because we are justified in the blood of Christ.

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)

That's why it says "especially of believers." We are saved from death for eonian life.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10) These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie (Genesis 3:4).

Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26).

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)

The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Death is like sleep. (John 11:11-14)

Scripture says the dead are reposing. Believers who died, along with believers who are alive, will be "snatched away" to meet Christ in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

Death is a return.

"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)

The body returns to the soil.

"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)

The spirit returns to God. Spirit is by implication the imperceptible power of action, life, and intelligence.

"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

And the soul returns to the "unseen."

"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)

"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)

"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)

Scripture says the soul dies.

"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

Christ alone has immortality.

"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)

Believers will be immortalized when we are snatched away to meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), and unbelievers condemned to "the second death" will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-26).

"Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory." (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)

The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever, but scripture says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

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[Jock]

Martin Zender on the Lake of fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8Qm5OOv2Y

and the second death

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWu_kd5GRs

[Tom]

Martin Zender on the Lake of fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8Qm5OOv2Y

and the second death

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWu_kd5GRs

I agree with Martin about this.

[sheila]

what about Jude'sandPaul's  dissertatin speakingof the falling away ofbeleivers.......inthe

assembly?  certain men..without fruit..thaat slipped in androse up fromamongst

theirownmembers[to be revealed andconsumedwith the BreathofHiscoming]twice dead

  wandering stars...I say wickedservant class appointed portionwith unbeleivers..........

  now these spiritualunseenthingsare manifested as seen through examples in men.....

things of the spiritual seed andenmity betweenthem..evidenced openly in man'sflesh

   the clue is that which isdeemed'twice dead'...and alsoJesus declaring toreligious leaders

that they traverse landandse tomake one proselyte..andwhen they getthrough withat man

  he is twice the son of hell!!!!

  in Jude they have eyes full of adultery[for they are coveting andlusting after the bride of

Christ]  they are no freind of the bridegroom...they seek that she follow them,not Christ

andthe Holy spirit[Bridesgroom's freind during betrothalperiod]

imo  the things Imentioned above shows/reveals whatis spoken of inthe LOF.............

such say ...Lord,Lord..did wenot............they are shown as usurpers............

   same thing as Paul dealt with 'superfine apostle's"that were supposedly sent from Jerusalem

when He comes...He doesaway with them..........Proverbs 6;34,35....they lead astray/seduced

  'silly/foolish women[churches]' see parable of tenvirgins........the foolish took not oil

intheir lamps..whichthe Holy spirit as freind of bridegroomwould have provided the betrothed

......thus theymiss out onthe intimacy of the wedding supper.

             Now these things have been openlydisplayed for us all.........and the men/churches

  that have openly manifested these things,serve as examples as towhat is unseen.....

andwe need to realize....that were as allmenshall be delivered from this wicked contrast

spirit in operation[nosuch demonscanseperate] by the Love/mercy of God[Ishall show

mercy untowhomIshallshowmercy] God is harsh untothe evil spirits........

...foriftherighteus[allmendeclared righteous in Christ] are saved inmuch difficulty..where

are the wicked?

       God inHis mercy gave the gift of eternallife..through resurrection[I amtheresurrection]

unto allmen.Allmen appointed todie once

  But theresurrection ofthe wicked is to bejudged untodoom/eternal destruction

death...and there names aare not writtenin theBookof Life..twice dead/Lof...God himself

will destroy  himwho destroys God's temple[destroy this temple andIshallraise up onthe third

day.Cheif cornerstone..ofwhich nomancan build onany therfoundation...........

   all dead fallen men are reckoned in Christ..to beresurrected[sheepforthe slaughter/appointed

todieonce]  intheresurrectionthesesheep receive the Kingdomprepared for them...they shall

be seperated from Azazael's lot......that shall be outside the Holy cityNew Jerusalem....

   But toall redeemedmen......the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come! Andlet himwhohears

say,'Come!  Whoever is thirsty let him come!; and whoever wishes,let him take the

freegift of the water ofLife!!

  outside of that Holy city..are the old man of sin/corrupt image condemned todie..and the

corrupt evil spirit that corrupted man.........theyboth are completely consumed/and never

enter theHolycity/Azazael goat lot

   Inside is thenewcreaturein the image of Christ...raised up from it's fallen/destroyed state

   the Lord's lot..inChrist...

[sheila]

 the twice dead and Lof 'crowd...are the angels that followed satan[did not keep their

positionsin heaven] but took the daughters of menunto wed.....that in the days of Noah

come underjudgement..and their ' offspring' nethelim..were destroyed......of whichonly

evilwas intheirminds continually...they were bound and notallowed torise againunto

heaven...andawait theircoming executioninthe Lof[water/Noaahs + Fire]  these don't survive.

   the true 'twice dead" arethese fallenangels..andtheir evil spirit offspring...which issue forth

  from the flesh of man..and corrupt theimage of God/Christin man..

though redeemed man pass through the water and the fire...he is preserved........

but itis not sofor thefallenangels anddemonicoffspring/evil spirits...the same fireandwater

consumes utterly that which is notof God.   and they ARE NOT OF GOD...forthose of God

can not sin[as perthe fallenangels] orcontinue topractice sin[as per man that bears first

the image of the corrupt..which seizes tosin at death ofsinfulflesh..and is raised up new

creature[nolonger practices sin butis delivered from the wicked]


   a parellel canbe drawn that churches/daughters of men betrothed to Christ/God/sonf God

  ....as inNoah'sdaay...are marrying andgiving in marriage...and taking nonote.

  fallen angels[gospels] have took forthemselves..Namely..all who they want....these lying

deceivng 'messengers' workfalse signs........ and giant deceptions abound..inthe earth....

from Giant corporations that consume allthe resources of man onearth..to Giant oneworld

governments seeking tosit asruler of the earth...toGiant religious organizations... that desire

to exalt themselves above the stars ofheaven/sit inthe temple..showing himself he is god..


   the Giant image shall fall...a stone not cut out by human hands

   

]

   He shall deliver us from our enemy..that is stronger then us

[Tom]

"Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day." (Jude 1:6)

"For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging" (2 Peter 2:4)

"4 The "gloomy caverns" of Tartarus are distinct from the unseen, from gehenna, and from the lake of fire. They are the temporary dungeon of spirits (cf note on page 392 14)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 364)

I no longer believe celestial messengers mated with human females and produced giants.

The Hebrew word for "elohim" which has been translated as "God" in the King James Version can also refer to false gods and human subjectors (Exodus 4:16; 18:11; 20:3; 22:8,9,28). The Hebrew word for "nephilim" translated as "giants" in the King James Version is translated as "the distinguished" in the Concordant Version.

"Now it had occurred when humanity had started to increase on the surface of the ground and daughters had been born to them, the sons of the elohim saw the daughters of the human that they were good-looking. So they took wives for themselves from any whom they chose. Then Yahweh said: My spirit shall not abide in the human for the eon, in that he too is flesh. So his days will continue a hundred twenty years. As for the distinguished, they were on earth in those days and also afterward, when the sons of the elohim were coming to the daughters of the human, and they bore them offspring. They were the masterful ones, who were from the eon, mortals of renown. (Genesis 6:1-4)

"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'?" (John 10:34)

"34 The term "gods" is translated "judges" in Ex.21:6, 22:8-9, where it refers to men. But our Lord does not appeal to this, but to Psalm 82:6 where the context clearly excludes men. The mighty spiritual powers of the past who overrule the affairs of mankind are called sons by God Himself. Even Satan is called a son of God (Job1:6). He is called the god of this eon (2Co.4:4). Now if God said to these subjectors, "Gods are you," notwithstanding the fact that they failed to right the wrongs of earth, how much rather shall He have called Him God Who shall dispossess them? To Him God says (Psa.82:8) :

Rise, O God! Judge the earth,
For Thou shalt be allotted all nations.

He had been undoing the deeds of these sons of God and doing all that was foretold of Him before their very eyes. And yet they thought they were not blind!" (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 158)