Hi folks
I was thinking of the LOF which is the second death. This takes place after the 2nd resurrection and the white throne, Judgement.
There is no 3rd resurrection, which would seem to mean that those who were burnt up in the Lake, ceased to exist, only to become as ash under the feet of the redeemed.
Any thoughts?
Jock :sigh:
It never says those in the LOF will be consumed. It never says anything about anyone being there but who it was created for - the devils and his angels - no mention of humans in there.
Are you assuming that there are just some people that will continue to override the will and love of God with their "free will" which must be stronger than God's? :dontknow: :Chinscratch: :Peace2:
Jock please read and take special note of the word WORKS. Also the final verse
1Cr 3:11. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Cr 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
It is only ever the Works that are consumed. Not the person . Besides it is a figurative fire
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie, thanks, that made it nice and clear. I sometimes must be shown those things like I'm a four year old! :sigh:
ded2daworld, I was thinking of this:
Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jock :flamebreath:
3 harvests - 3 resurrections
http://www.thewayprepared.com/studies/3-foldharvest.html
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/threeharvests.htm
http://www.theopenscroll.com/beyond_veil/appendices/resurrectionSequence.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20one.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20two.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20three.htm
Etc :banana:
the 'works' burnt up........everything,whether good or evil...comes from God or theevil contrast
spirit........only Godisgood...andany 'good' workisdonethroughHisspirit...only the wicked
contrast is wicked...andany wickednessis done through it...........discern the tree andit's
fruit.........the good samaritaaandid a 'good' work through the spirit of God..........
make the tree good or evil...the axe is already at the root of the trees..andevery tree that
does not produce good fruit[not of God's spirit] shall be cut downandthrown intothe fire
or every plant the Lord did not plant shall be pulled upofit's roots[look anenemy hath donethis]
discerning the tree...it is known of it's fruit..whether of God,or the wicked one
look!....the son with the evil spirit in him that often caast him down Matt 17;15 and throw
him in the water or fire[think wicked in Noah's day..and lof/judgementas wicked annihilation]
and see howJesus handles wicked spirits that tryanddestroythe children..........Mark 9;29
through water andfire....note seizuresof the boy by the wicked spirit...foaming at the mouth
seizures coz 'gnashing' ofteeth...realize exactly 'who/what' is cast out andgnashingit's teeth
andwho/whaat isdelivered....then know 'who/what is outside the Holy city.....
See how Jesus handles such wicked spirits in men that endeavour to cast them in the
Lof. through 'seizing'them
Quote from: Jock on October 09, 2013, 12:12:47 PM
Hi folks
I was thinking of the LOF which is the second death. This takes place after the 2nd resurrection and the white throne, Judgement.
There is no 3rd resurrection, which would seem to mean that those who were burnt up in the Lake, ceased to exist, only to become as ash under the feet of the redeemed.
Any thoughts?
Jock :sigh:
The book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" containing "the second death-the lake of fire" is at the end of your bible, but it's not the end of the story. Those who died as unbelievers raised to be judged before the "great white throne" and cast into "the lake of fire" will be dead until they are "vivified" at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished, and God will be "all in all."
"13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.
14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)
"13 Thus all evil is segregated in the lake of fire, where Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet already are (20:10). "This is the second death" defines the lake of fire. Those who have been raised from death return to the same state in the second death. The only immunity from condemnation lies in having a place in the scroll of life." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 404)
"12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (1 Corinthians 15:12-28)
"12 The resurrection is the very fundamental of fundamentals. The death of Christ is essential to the evangel, yet it is not enough. A dead Christ cannot save. The resurrection is not only essential, but it involves His death, for only one who is dead can be roused from the dead. Without His resurrection we are still in our sins.
18 The state of the dead, apart from resurrection, is not one of ecstatic bliss, but of destruction.
20 Christ was not the first one to be roused from the dead. The prophets, and the Lord Himself, recalled some to life before He Himself suffered death. But He is the first One to be made alive beyond the power of death. All the others were roused to die again. He is the First fruit of those who are vivified, and die no more.
21 Death's entrance and exit are both through a man. Adam and Christ are the channels, respectively, through which death and resurrection reach all mankind.
22 The words "even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (1Thes.4:16; 1Cor.15:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.
25 The reign of Christ is so beneficent, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes. Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.
27 The universality of Christ's subjection of all under His feet is evident from the one exception—God Himself.
28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
http://concordant.org/
http://concordant.org/version/CLNT_Intro.htm
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC00.htm
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
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why would any man want to cast mankind inthe LOF? that is what the evil spirit does!!!!
when God judges the people learn righteousness...there fore God declares TRUTH and
removes allthings that cause men to stumble[namely,lying prophets/Babylon/bestly/carnal
teachings andthe satanand his devils] when Heremoves andburns up 'these lying works
deceptions/powers/carnal understandings" from man...thenHE CAN LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS
AND NOT HAVE THESE POWERS TEMPTING HIM,NOR DECEIVING NOR RULING OVER HIM!!
KNOWING GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE...THE PEOPLE WILL BE DE#LIVERED AND KNOW GOD
HE WILL BE ALL IN ALL..BECAUSE THE EVIL CONTRST IS GONE!!!!!!!
HE REALLY DOES TAKE AWY THE SIN FROM ALL MEN
3harvests...barly wheat and grapes..barley was gathered at Hisfirst coming...and through
generations since then..of men inthis class..............wheat..at His return..He seperates
andrefines those'wheat'He gathers out of Babylon...grapes...all men that have died
not knowing of the grace of God in their lifetimes.....there are grapesofwrathandgrapes that
are turned into the best wine[last]
weeds,tares.grapes of wrath..that set teeth onedge..........In those days people will
nolonger saay......'the fathers have eatensour grapes and the children's teeth have been set
onedge"..........this refers to first Adam and sinentering all men...fromnowon caall no man
your father..God aloneis your Father...all resurecctedmenwill have God as their true Father
old damwill have diedin allof them..NEW COVENANT......put my laws in theirminds and
hearts NOLONGER WILL A MAN TEACH HIS BROTHER..saying KNOW THE LORD...
BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME!!!!!!!![thisis eternal life toKNOW THE ONE TRUE GOD!
Thanks Guys
There is a lot for me to ingest and chew on here. I'll come back to you next week sometime.
Jock :dsunny:
Julie, what do you mean by a "figurative fire?"
Tom, I think I am beginning to see in the Spirit that God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth and those who are dust will be vivified because all things will be as new. It's just kinda difficult to get this one down into concrete.
WW, I've been looking at one of the links you sent me, the one about the 3 resurrections. It's very good.
Anyways, still reading.
Cheers for now :banana:
Jock
Quote from: Jock on October 11, 2013, 04:22:07 PM
WW, I've been looking at one of the links you sent me, the one about the 3 resurrections. It's very good.
Good to hear Jock.
The book is 3 volumes. I edited my post and added volume 2 and 3
Quote from: Jock on October 11, 2013, 04:22:07 PM
Tom, I think I am beginning to see in the Spirit that God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth and those who are dust will be vivified because all things will be as new. It's just kinda difficult to get this one down into concrete.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"20 Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished until the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27) and when all mankind are saved (1Tim.4:10) and justified (Rom.5:18). This takes us far beyond the new earth portrayed at the end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, for there He still reigns, many of mankind are still lost, and death is not yet abolished." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 303)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
I believe the chastening that some refer to as associated with the lake of fire is actually accomplished during the judgment at the great white throne prior to the lake of fire because mortals in the lake of fire will be dead and therefore not conscious to be chastened.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/AResurrectionOfJudging.html
Quote from: Jock on October 11, 2013, 04:22:07 PM
Julie, what do you mean by a "figurative fire?"
Jock
Jock many fail to understand the significance of Father when he said: "Let us make man in our image"
Clearly, Father isn't human; He is Spirit. Therefore, must not we also be spirit?
1Cr 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.This is clearly saying "There IS a natural body, and there IS a SPIRITUAL body.
Also, this Scripture states beyond debate that when the natural body dies it is raised a spiritual body.
Clearly, fire as we know it cannot burn / cleanse spirit.
Hope this helps,
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie, that was helpful, very clear. Seems there is going to be a lot of dying going on, but also leading into a lot of living. I'd love to be in the 1st resurrection but I guess not all will. There are even Christians (don't like that term) who will have to wait until the 2nd.
Cheers for now
Jock :Pray:
yes,the links WW put up ofthethree stages of be liftedup[resurrection] inChrist
was not lost on me. I see a correlation in 1 John 2; 12-14
littlechildren,youngmen..and Fathers...
sowing seed[tender sprout come up/treat littlechildren/flock withtenderness]
watering/growth. sanctification[young men] ........ripeness/maturity.....[fathers/saviours
positions ofoversite[throne]
barley cake=seed of spiritual Israel sowninland to inherit[Judges 7;14]
wheat= Elijah1 Kings 18;33-35 watering of the seed/seperating of the tares[prophets
of baal/aashtoreth destroyed[sanctification]
grapes=best wine for last[cup/covenant of throne] waterturned to wine] 1 Cor10;16
cup of blessing/increase/Fathers
barley= enough to sustain one man'slife/needs Rev 6;5wheat=enough tosustain a family for
a days wages....oilandwine= well-oileddishes/winefeast..winekeptonthe lees=abundance
for all men[savioursrise uponMt Zion/the revealing of the sonsofGodofwhich the cretion had
beengroaning for....maturity
Quote from: Jock on October 09, 2013, 02:40:04 PM
Julie, thanks, that made it nice and clear. I sometimes must be shown those things like I'm a four year old! :sigh:
ded2daworld, I was thinking of this:
Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jock :flamebreath:
I too ask the Lord our God our Father about these thngs like a hungry child learning Jock
you gave the verse Rev 20 bout Death and hades being thown into the Lake of Fire
But I always was puzzled by Daeth riding a horse ??? How does and why does Death ride a horse ?
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and
his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Seems the mystery is in the horses and what they do and what they represent
they are swift and always used in battle
so the sign of horses and the red ones black ones and white ones have a special meaning/purpose in the BIBLE of what they do in Gods plan , this pale horse and Death is its rider , the power of Life and death is in the tongue !
we see the comparing them in REV 9 this battle !! very profound they are locusts but look like horses and also in James
our big clues are found
our flesh is like horses , we make the flesh / horses obey us by a bridle in its mouth
and the horse our own flesh is driven by winds / spirits
good spirits or bad spirits
look at these
Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and
their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.
.
Eze 23:20 For she doted upon their paramours,
whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. remember the issue of blood shall flow to the horses bridles !!Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
here in James explains alot to the mystries of battle of Life and death in the POWER of the tongue and we KNOW that LIFE in Jersus Christ has the power and victory over death
its the VOICE of the Lord as many waters FROM ABOVE that puts out the fires of the tongues of Death , that Rider of the pale horse !! I ask could a pale horse represent
no blood / life in them ??? because the Life is in the Blood according the the scriptures
But in the end God is a consuming FIRE that swallows up death and hades /hell the graves in VICTORY !!
Jam 3:
3
Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
bits being to steer and guide and the whole body being our flesh as horses by a wind breath spirit in the horses breathing had when running to and fro
Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and
are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
winds as spirits , if you look up SPIRIT
Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. hell follows after Death from the tongue !!
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
But
the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
REV 9 !
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
I just hope you can see a little bit of what I am trying to explain here
when you look into those things , you can see with a new perspective
on how hidden in plain sight Gods Word is !
sorry this got sooooooooo long , and its not as clear as I had hoped it could be
I just know its all about JESUS CHRIST !
OUR FOUCUS and to keep our eyes on Him ,
we are not ''special '' its the LORD HIMSELF that is special and holy and we are blessed by HIS WORKING in us , and that makes it ''special '' to us whom have been fortunate enough to be given eyes to see and hears to hear and heart to understand what the SPIRIT is saying and doing in the new heavens and earth
for me I always wondered what its meant by the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world
I do not any longer see it as the literal old world that stands today
but the Cross of Jesus Christ was and is the new heavens and earth being established before our very eyes and lives here and now ! from that time of the open show to now and to keep on coming is our LORD JESUS CHRIST coming in the clouds of glory , the many witnesses , that we are so blessed to be in that number !! GLORY TO GOD !
Hi all,
The LOF is only mentioned in the last part or revelation. It has to do with the 2nd resurrection and the white throne judgment. IMO when the second death occurs there will be no more LOF and it will have been ended with the new heavens and new earth IMO. Just wondering since LOF is often directly associated with the second death. Second death is the end of any need for judgment or fire. It will then be that GOD ID ALL IN ALL. :Peace2:
awesome post,Rose!!! Onething I noticed about horses..is how quickly a'wind' canaffect them
wind/spirit very similiar in root word.... a littlewind come up..and they act 'strange!" attimes
sometimes...spooked...sometimes...a different reaction. Iremember thinking inmy 20's
'what's up with their reaction toa wind coming through?"'andIwondered abouttheterm
'ill wind"
Hi guys
I appreciate all your answers but I am not much of a reader and it's hard for me to get my mind around reams of text. Could somebody please explain this to me like I'm a brand new believer?
Thanks
Jock :dontknow:
Rose, that was a good post about the tongue.
All I know is this. If we minister in Love, we minister life
If we minister in anger or hatred, we minister death.
Words are very powerful, so we need to check our hearts that we are in the Spirit and speaking the truth in Love, especially towards the brethren.
Jock. :winkgrin:
Was just thinking, the Fire of God that refines and consumes, I've known that fire on and off throughout my entire life. When I look back a ways, I really am a totally different person now. God has arranged the whole thing!
Jock.
Prophecy buffs always seem to read Revelation and the Prophets as future events. No doubt some of them are but the Word of God is working in us NOW! It's not Christ future or Christ past, it's Christ right now.
Just some thoughts
Jock
Quote from: joeteekay on October 13, 2013, 05:57:03 AM
Hi all,
The LOF is only mentioned in the last part or revelation. It has to do with the 2nd resurrection and the white throne judgment. IMO when the second death occurs there will be no more LOF and it will have been ended with the new heavens and new earth IMO. Just wondering since LOF is often directly associated with the second death. Second death is the end of any need for judgment or fire. It will then be that GOD ID ALL IN ALL. :Peace2:
The lake of fire is the second death.
"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)
God will be all in all at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and those condemned to the the second death are vivified.
"22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Jock on October 13, 2013, 11:56:11 AM
Hi guys
I appreciate all your answers but I am not much of a reader and it's hard for me to get my mind around reams of text. Could somebody please explain this to me like I'm a brand new believer?
Thanks
Jock :dontknow:
God is love, and God created all to manifest his love.
The church is wrong about saying God plans to torment or annihilate unbelievers.
The inspired written word of God says it is only by the grace of God that some believe.
"8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
The word of God clearly states that all are reconciled to God through Christ.
"and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20)
That means universal reconciliation.
God is the savior of all mankind.
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
When somebody perishes, is lost, or suffers destruction, it is only until all will be vivified because death will be abolished, and God's ultimate goal is to be all in all.
"20 Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Thanks Tom.
A question for you, do you believe that we are living out the judgement here in this life? That the chastening we experience from the Lord's hand will find it's fullness at the Great White Throne?
Jock
Quote from: Jock on October 13, 2013, 09:09:25 PM
Thanks Tom.
A question for you, do you believe that we are living out the judgement here in this life? That the chastening we experience from the Lord's hand will find it's fullness at the Great White Throne?
Jock
Those who died as unbelievers will be raised to be judged before the great white throne where they will be condemned to the second death during which time they couldn't be chastened because the dead are not conscious.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
We believers won't be judged at the great white throne because we're justified through Christ, and we will already have been vivified and snatched away a thousand years before that. We believers will be requited at the dais of Christ.
"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)
"22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
"13 Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation.
14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him.
15 For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
16 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first.
17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.
18 So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheDais/index.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
If all the dead great and small pass before the great white throne, and those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are cast into the lake of pur(fire) and theon(brimstone/purifying agent)....it stands to reason that the second death may be different in nature than the first death, since the scriptures would be contradicting themselves or even mocking themselves by stating that there will be kolassis in the fire- Jesus himself describing it as singularly unpleasant. For instance, when Paul wrtes of widows who are taken ontot he church rolls as intercessors who then go back to seeking a man or become busybodies etc, he says "they are dead even while they live"- yet, they are conscious- but just not conscious of God.
When Paul says, "As in Adam all men died"- it is for the reader to decide if Adam, who remained conscious for hundreds of years really died, and what that death was/is before it is fulfilled in actual physical death.
I personally believe the second death obviously involves consciousness because if you sleep through kolassis it is no kolassis at all. If you are unconscious of it or non existent in it you ARE NOT experiencing it and therefore could not be changed by it.
Paul speaks frequently of "the wrath to come" and it is very real in my opinion, whatever it is.
Also, it is for the reader to decide when the word dead/death is reffering to the state of unregenerated man or a man who has become nothing when the context is not clear. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It cannot receive the things f God. It knows nothing. Sheol opens its mouth wide to swallow the dead. Many of them are dead even as they live because they walk "in the valley of the shadow of death" rather than "abide under the shadow of the Almighty" which is life.
It seems to me that while insisting on one literal understanding(the dead know nothing) and enforcing it across the board to govern the understanding of what the second death is....we deny another literal understanding(they will be tormented day and night in the presence of God and His holy messengers). IMO, this is illogical and a failure of exegesis- in any case, we cannot hav it both ways at the same time.
Eaglesway
It seems to me if I understand correctly that the LOF that you describe, is Hell. I believe that those cast in, will immediately die but the Grace of God found in Christ's sacrifice will re-vivify them from ash "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" The only difference I see in your description is that the LOF will ultimately go out.
:dontknow:
Jock
At the end of the day, we will need to trust God Himself and when we see His just judgement, we will agree.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 15, 2013, 06:36:15 AM
If all the dead great and small pass before the great white throne, and those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are cast into the lake of pur(fire) and theon(brimstone/purifying agent)....it stands to reason that the second death may be different in nature than the first death, since the scriptures would be contradicting themselves or even mocking themselves by stating that there will be kolassis in the fire- Jesus himself describing it as singularly unpleasant. For instance, when Paul wrtes of widows who are taken ontot he church rolls as intercessors who then go back to seeking a man or become busybodies etc, he says "they are dead even while they live"- yet, they are conscious- but just not conscious of God.
When Paul says, "As in Adam all men died"- it is for the reader to decide if Adam, who remained conscious for hundreds of years really died, and what that death was/is before it is fulfilled in actual physical death.
I personally believe the second death obviously involves consciousness because if you sleep through kolassis it is no kolassis at all. If you are unconscious of it or non existent in it you ARE NOT experiencing it and therefore could not be changed by it.
Paul speaks frequently of "the wrath to come" and it is very real in my opinion, whatever it is.
Also, it is for the reader to decide when the word dead/death is reffering to the state of unregenerated man or a man who has become nothing when the context is not clear. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It cannot receive the things f God. It knows nothing. Sheol opens its mouth wide to swallow the dead. Many of them are dead even as they live because they walk "in the valley of the shadow of death" rather than "abide under the shadow of the Almighty" which is life.
It seems to me that while insisting on one literal understanding(the dead know nothing) and enforcing it across the board to govern the understanding of what the second death is....we deny another literal understanding(they will be tormented day and night in the presence of God and His holy messengers). IMO, this is illogical and a failure of exegesis- in any case, we cannot hav it both ways at the same time.
As I said before, bro, we have different perspectives even though we agree on the ultimate salvation of all mankind.
I realize that death is used both literally and figuratively in scripture, but I believe those mortals in the lake of fire condemned to the second death will be literally dead and therefore not conscious of any "kolasin" or "chastening."
I believe "all the dead...before the great white throne" that you refer to are those who died as unbelievers because we believers will have already been made alive never to die again when Christ meets us in the air a thousand years before the great white throne judgement.
I believe the "kolasin" or "chastening" of Matthew 25:46 refers to the live nations being judged according to how they dealt with Israel not the dead who are raised a thousand years later to be judged before the great white throne.
I believe Adam and Eve did not die when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but they began the process of dying which we all experience during our lives.
"But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you must not eat from it; for on the day you eat from it, to die you shall be dying." (Genesis 2:17)
"But the serpent said to the woman: Not to die shall you be dying; for Elohim knows that on the day you eat of it your eyes will be unclosed, and you will become like Elohim, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4,5)
I believe only those who died as unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and condemned to the second death, but those of us in the body of Christ will be saved from indignation because we are justified in the blood of Christ.
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
That's why it says "especially of believers." We are saved from death for eonian life.
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10) These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie (Genesis 3:4).
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26).
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Death is like sleep. (John 11:11-14)
Scripture says the dead are reposing. Believers who died, along with believers who are alive, will be "snatched away" to meet Christ in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
Death is a return.
"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)
The body returns to the soil.
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)
The spirit returns to God. Spirit is by implication the imperceptible power of action, life, and intelligence.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
And the soul returns to the "unseen."
"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)
"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
Christ alone has immortality.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
Believers will be immortalized when we are snatched away to meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), and unbelievers condemned to "the second death" will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-26).
"Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory." (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)
The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever, but scripture says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
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Martin Zender on the Lake of fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8Qm5OOv2Y
and the second death
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWu_kd5GRs
Quote from: Jock on October 15, 2013, 05:06:13 PM
Martin Zender on the Lake of fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8Qm5OOv2Y
and the second death
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWu_kd5GRs
I agree with Martin about this.
what about Jude'sandPaul's dissertatin speakingof the falling away ofbeleivers.......inthe
assembly? certain men..without fruit..thaat slipped in androse up fromamongst
theirownmembers[to be revealed andconsumedwith the BreathofHiscoming]twice dead
wandering stars...I say wickedservant class appointed portionwith unbeleivers..........
now these spiritualunseenthingsare manifested as seen through examples in men.....
things of the spiritual seed andenmity betweenthem..evidenced openly in man'sflesh
the clue is that which isdeemed'twice dead'...and alsoJesus declaring toreligious leaders
that they traverse landandse tomake one proselyte..andwhen they getthrough withat man
he is twice the son of hell!!!!
in Jude they have eyes full of adultery[for they are coveting andlusting after the bride of
Christ] they are no freind of the bridegroom...they seek that she follow them,not Christ
andthe Holy spirit[Bridesgroom's freind during betrothalperiod]
imo the things Imentioned above shows/reveals whatis spoken of inthe LOF.............
such say ...Lord,Lord..did wenot............they are shown as usurpers............
same thing as Paul dealt with 'superfine apostle's"that were supposedly sent from Jerusalem
when He comes...He doesaway with them..........Proverbs 6;34,35....they lead astray/seduced
'silly/foolish women[churches]' see parable of tenvirgins........the foolish took not oil
intheir lamps..whichthe Holy spirit as freind of bridegroomwould have provided the betrothed
......thus theymiss out onthe intimacy of the wedding supper.
Now these things have been openlydisplayed for us all.........and the men/churches
that have openly manifested these things,serve as examples as towhat is unseen.....
andwe need to realize....that were as allmenshall be delivered from this wicked contrast
spirit in operation[nosuch demonscanseperate] by the Love/mercy of God[Ishall show
mercy untowhomIshallshowmercy] God is harsh untothe evil spirits........
...foriftherighteus[allmendeclared righteous in Christ] are saved inmuch difficulty..where
are the wicked?
God inHis mercy gave the gift of eternallife..through resurrection[I amtheresurrection]
unto allmen.Allmen appointed todie once
But theresurrection ofthe wicked is to bejudged untodoom/eternal destruction
death...and there names aare not writtenin theBookof Life..twice dead/Lof...God himself
will destroy himwho destroys God's temple[destroy this temple andIshallraise up onthe third
day.Cheif cornerstone..ofwhich nomancan build onany therfoundation...........
all dead fallen men are reckoned in Christ..to beresurrected[sheepforthe slaughter/appointed
todieonce] intheresurrectionthesesheep receive the Kingdomprepared for them...they shall
be seperated from Azazael's lot......that shall be outside the Holy cityNew Jerusalem....
But toall redeemedmen......the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come! Andlet himwhohears
say,'Come! Whoever is thirsty let him come!; and whoever wishes,let him take the
freegift of the water ofLife!!
outside of that Holy city..are the old man of sin/corrupt image condemned todie..and the
corrupt evil spirit that corrupted man.........theyboth are completely consumed/and never
enter theHolycity/Azazael goat lot
Inside is thenewcreaturein the image of Christ...raised up from it's fallen/destroyed state
the Lord's lot..inChrist...
the twice dead and Lof 'crowd...are the angels that followed satan[did not keep their
positionsin heaven] but took the daughters of menunto wed.....that in the days of Noah
come underjudgement..and their ' offspring' nethelim..were destroyed......of whichonly
evilwas intheirminds continually...they were bound and notallowed torise againunto
heaven...andawait theircoming executioninthe Lof[water/Noaahs + Fire] these don't survive.
the true 'twice dead" arethese fallenangels..andtheir evil spirit offspring...which issue forth
from the flesh of man..and corrupt theimage of God/Christin man..
though redeemed man pass through the water and the fire...he is preserved........
but itis not sofor thefallenangels anddemonicoffspring/evil spirits...the same fireandwater
consumes utterly that which is notof God. and they ARE NOT OF GOD...forthose of God
can not sin[as perthe fallenangels] orcontinue topractice sin[as per man that bears first
the image of the corrupt..which seizes tosin at death ofsinfulflesh..and is raised up new
creature[nolonger practices sin butis delivered from the wicked]
a parellel canbe drawn that churches/daughters of men betrothed to Christ/God/sonf God
....as inNoah'sdaay...are marrying andgiving in marriage...and taking nonote.
fallen angels[gospels] have took forthemselves..Namely..all who they want....these lying
deceivng 'messengers' workfalse signs........ and giant deceptions abound..inthe earth....
from Giant corporations that consume allthe resources of man onearth..to Giant oneworld
governments seeking tosit asruler of the earth...toGiant religious organizations... that desire
to exalt themselves above the stars ofheaven/sit inthe temple..showing himself he is god..
the Giant image shall fall...a stone not cut out by human hands
]
He shall deliver us from our enemy..that is stronger then us
"Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day." (Jude 1:6)
"For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging" (2 Peter 2:4)
"4 The "gloomy caverns" of Tartarus are distinct from the unseen, from gehenna, and from the lake of fire. They are the temporary dungeon of spirits (cf note on page 392 14)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 364)
I no longer believe celestial messengers mated with human females and produced giants.
The Hebrew word for "elohim" which has been translated as "God" in the King James Version can also refer to false gods and human subjectors (Exodus 4:16; 18:11; 20:3; 22:8,9,28). The Hebrew word for "nephilim" translated as "giants" in the King James Version is translated as "the distinguished" in the Concordant Version.
"Now it had occurred when humanity had started to increase on the surface of the ground and daughters had been born to them, the sons of the elohim saw the daughters of the human that they were good-looking. So they took wives for themselves from any whom they chose. Then Yahweh said: My spirit shall not abide in the human for the eon, in that he too is flesh. So his days will continue a hundred twenty years. As for the distinguished, they were on earth in those days and also afterward, when the sons of the elohim were coming to the daughters of the human, and they bore them offspring. They were the masterful ones, who were from the eon, mortals of renown. (Genesis 6:1-4)
"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'?" (John 10:34)
"34 The term "gods" is translated "judges" in Ex.21:6, 22:8-9, where it refers to men. But our Lord does not appeal to this, but to Psalm 82:6 where the context clearly excludes men. The mighty spiritual powers of the past who overrule the affairs of mankind are called sons by God Himself. Even Satan is called a son of God (Job1:6). He is called the god of this eon (2Co.4:4). Now if God said to these subjectors, "Gods are you," notwithstanding the fact that they failed to right the wrongs of earth, how much rather shall He have called Him God Who shall dispossess them? To Him God says (Psa.82:8) :
Rise, O God! Judge the earth,
For Thou shalt be allotted all nations.
He had been undoing the deeds of these sons of God and doing all that was foretold of Him before their very eyes. And yet they thought they were not blind!" (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 158)