Loads of questions, beginning with The Word of God?

[Jock]

I am having to learn and revisit a lot of things because the doctrines etc that were taught me before (30 years worth) were many of them, in error. I'll start with this one:

How can we say that the Bible is the word of God, perfect in every way, knowing that there are mistakes and misinterpretations, for instance, hell!

It is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks to our inner ear and we know the truth by the Amen! I know that the scriptures are profitable for teaching and reproof etc.

Can anybody enlighten me?

Blessings

Jock?

[WhiteWings]

It's a tool to stop questioning doctrines based on flawed translations.

[JulieTang84]

Hi Jock, this is how I see the Bible. As you, I totally listen to the Holy Spirit as Jesus instructed us to do. This is where all truth comes, as it is given directly and is not based on understanding of interpretation.

Rather, it comes as a warm comforting knowledge, that is bathed in peace and harmony, ie. LOVE. :HeartThrob:

This is Spirit speaking directly to spirit. The Bible. is then used to validate what was given and thus becomes the second required witness.

I know this concept does not bode well with many, but I will leave you with 3 prose vs as I am using my phone and pasting text is a real pain :sigh:

Jesus said to become as little children.
We are told not to lean on our understanding
As well as being told to be still so we may know Father.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Jock]

Julie, that was lovely and I agree, that has been my experience, the scriptures validate what the Spirit says and it resounds in the body of Christ. We are Priests unto Him. Thank you, you did very well on your phone!

I found this on Youtube. The scene and singing at the end are a bit funky but I like what the brother says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dj9p1aH69k

Bless you

Jock.   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

This is where all truth comes, as it is given directly and is not based on understanding of interpretation.

This is Spirit speaking directly to spirit. The Bible. is then used to validate what was given and thus becomes the second required witness.

Two conflicting statements.

How can you verify what the HS told you?
Only by interpretation of the written Word.

[Jock]

WW

I understood what Julie meant very clearly, for this is my walk. The Holy Spirit speaks and that (for me at least) is always accompanied by scripture and has the "Amen" in the Body.

From what you wrote, I think you understand that 

Jock.

[JulieTang84]

This is where all truth comes, as it is given directly and is not based on understanding of interpretation.

This is Spirit speaking directly to spirit. The Bible. is then used to validate what was given and thus becomes the second required witness.

Two conflicting statements.

How can you verify what the HS told you?uu
Only by interpretation of the written Word.

Have you never had a A-Ha moment when suddenly the words and the wisdom the contain suddenly become part of you?

I am somewhat surprised by your words of doubt. Are you so sure of your understanding that you must question the words of others?

You see, wisdom from the Holy Spirit becomes as part of one as ones blood. It does not need a witness, it is TRUTH and answers to no one. The Holy Spirit speaks only the words given by Father.

Jesus said that the truth will be heard and the listener will be free. Free from doubt, fear and questions.

So what does this Truth and the Bible have in common? Everything, because now whatever nugget of truth that has been given will now magically appear in the Bible and resonate as if angels were singing. The words become alive. There is nothing to understand, just another step closer to Father.

I really do not know how to explain it better than this.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

WW

I understood what Julie meant very clearly, for this is my walk. The Holy Spirit speaks and that (for me at least) is always accompanied by scripture and has the "Amen" in the Body.

From what you wrote, I think you understand that 

Jock.

Thanks Jock, thatwas beautifully said.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[Jock]

Julie
What is "IMO"? Gotta get my computer lingo up to scratch, Ha!

Jock

[jbertonbounds]

IMO = In my opionion.
IMHO = In my humble opionion.
OP = Opening post.
PM = Private message.
OTOH = On the other hand.

I'm sure I missed some. :winkgrin:

[jbertonbounds]

Jock,

I believe most of the mainstream bible translatations are pretty accurate, but they probably all contain some translation errors, because humans translated them.  As older and more reliable manuscripts are found through the years, it becomes more evident that most bibles are good translations.  However, it is important to remember this (this sounds like a shock statement at first, but hear me out): To put it simply, the bible is not God's inerrant word.  It is a translation of God's inspired, inerrant word.  I am aware of only a few translation errors, but most I know of are of major consequence. 

For example, the word "hell."  It should not be in any translation, and is not in some.  The words "Hades" and "Sheol," mistranslated into hell, actually meant, generally speaking, grave.  And the word "Gehenna," often mistranslated "hell" actually was a place, a garbage dump, obviously a figurative term. 

Then there is the word "forever."  The words "olam" and "aion" and their various forms mean "for an age," "for the ages," or "for an indefinite period of time" - not "forever." 

These mistranslations have contributed in a major way to the doctrine of eternal torment. :sigh: These mistranslations come from ignorance, traditional beliefs, manipulation, or just plain human error - or maybe all these. 

But don't be afraid to put your trust in modern bibles, but do choose wisely, and I prefer a translation that at least does not have the words "hell" and "forever" in them.

[jbertonbounds]

:notworthy: Humble yourself before the Lord and his Spirit will guide you in truth.

:Pray: Pray often for understanding, wisdom, and guidance.

:banana: The Father will bless you!

[Jock]

jbertonbounds , thanks and I agree that the Bible is not inerrant. There are a huge amount of believers who would argue on that point. I have witnessed people making a god of their Bible. This is idolatry.

Cheers for now  :Peace2:

Jock

[WhiteWings]

Have you never had a A-Ha moment when suddenly the words and the wisdom the contain suddenly become part of you?

Many. And many where false.

I am somewhat surprised by your words of doubt. Are you so sure of your understanding that you must question the words of others?

Pot and kettle Julie. You question my understanding too.

You see, wisdom from the Holy Spirit becomes as part of one as ones blood. It does not need a witness, it is TRUTH and answers to no one. The Holy Spirit speaks only the words given by Father.

True. But that's totally besides the point! Prove it's not satan, your ego or another false source giving you that info.
THAT is my point. It's not questioning Father, Son or HS. It's questioning if it's one of them speaking.

Jesus said that the truth will be heard and the listener will be free. Free from doubt, fear and questions.

Even more lies will be heard.

So what does this Truth and the Bible have in common? Everything, because now whatever nugget of truth that has been given will now magically appear in the Bible and resonate as if angels were singing. The words become alive. There is nothing to understand, just another step closer to Father.

So now suddenly you verify with the written Word?

I really do not know how to explain it better than this.

No need to Julie. I understand your view and in no way I will be convinced things I can't verify in the Bible are facts.

[jbertonbounds]

jbertonbounds , thanks and I agree that the Bible is not inerrant. There are a huge amount of believers who would argue on that point. I have witnessed people making a god of their Bible. This is idolatry.

Cheers for now  :Peace2:

Jock

Yes many believe the bible, in any translation, is inerrant.  I used to be one of those who made even my bible an idol.

[JulieTang84]

WW your words not mine. I do not need to verify any truth given me by the Spirit. of Truth.

The Scriptures merely give witness.

It saddens me that you cannot believe Jesus at his word. This is your path and I love you no less
Jesus spoke of faith and trust as the fruit of faith of truths that cannot be proven. Just as Jesus told Thomas, blessed are thosethat bbelieve who cannot see or touch.

May  I ask where the ego is in  Pure White LOVE, which is the love giveyn from Father.

I can answer that, but you may not like it.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Jock,

I believe most of the mainstream bible translatations are pretty accurate, but they probably all contain some translation errors, because humans translated them.  As older and more reliable manuscripts are found through the years, it becomes more evident that most bibles are good translations.

I've read something else...
200 years ago linguists still had to guess nearly 800 NT words. The Dead Sea Scrolls gave great insight too. The problem is that doctrines are set in stone and every bit of info will be twisted to prove the doctrine right. If not possible the info will be rejected.
True, there are translator not bound by church doctrine but I yet have to see a major translation updating their view. Not just spelling or something trival like a name. But doctrinal issues.

However, it is important to remember this (this sounds like a shock statement at first, but hear me out): To put it simply, the bible is not God's inerrant word.  It is a translation of God's inspired, inerrant word.

Not even that jbert. It's a translation of corrupted manuscripts.

I am aware of only a few translation errors

I severly doubt they ever were honest translation errors. But that's of course hard to prove.

, but most I know of are of major consequence. 

For example, the word "hell."  It should not be in any translation,

The word is not wrong. At the time of translation it also had the meaning of "unseen" (helmet)
Even today it has that meaning. But obvious by far the most primary meaning is total pagan fantasy.

And the word "Gehenna," often mistranslated "hell" actually was a place, a garbage dump, obviously a figurative term.

http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html

[WhiteWings]

WW your words not mine. I do not need to verify any truth given me by the Spirit. of Truth.

Unscriptual approach.

The Scriptures merely give witness.

That's verification if the interpretation is correct.

It saddens me that you cannot believe Jesus at his word.

It saddens me you either don't understand me or totally twist my words.


This is your path and I love you no less
Jesus spoke of faith and trust as the fruit of faith of truths that cannot be proven. Just as Jesus told Thomas, blessed are thosethat bbelieve who cannot see or touch.

May  I ask where the ego is in  Pure White LOVE, which is the love giveyn from Father.

Again either misunderstanding or twisting my words.

I can answer that, but you may not like it.

It would be more fruitful to actually read my posts and then try to answer my point.
Really if you claim/suggest I don't trust Jesus and similar arguments then you are misunderstanding my posts. And that is putting it very mildly.

[JulieTang84]

 :HeartThrob: :friendstu: :HeartThrob:

Well it seems as if I have totally must your point. Having gone over what you have written several times, your intent of meaning it's still lost to me.  :HeartThrob:

So let's just be content with that knowing if we cannot be on the same page with that, at least we can be regarding our love for truth, whichever way it comes.

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

WW

I understood what Julie meant very clearly, for this is my walk. The Holy Spirit speaks and that (for me at least) is always accompanied by scripture and has the "Amen" in the Body.

From what you wrote, I think you understand that 

Jock.

Keep walking Jock. Run Jock run!  :banana:
I understand Julie clearly as well (I hope). I just warn against unverified stuff. It can be 100% correct. But it can also be wrong.
When I started studying the Bible halfway 2008 I sorta promised myself to start my personal religion. I only accept what I understand and can prove to the best of my abilities. I'm not someone who bows for authority or the opinion of the masses.  Some time people agree with me often they bump heads like in this thread. If I would receive just one credit before the White Throne it would be that I honestly tried  :declare:

[marie glen]

I am having to learn and revisit a lot of things because the doctrines etc that were taught me before (30 years worth) were many of them, in error. I'll start with this one:

How can we say that the Bible is the word of God, perfect in every way, knowing that there are mistakes and misinterpretations, for instance, hell!

It is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks to our inner ear and we know the truth by the Amen! I know that the scriptures are profitable for teaching and reproof etc.

Can anybody enlighten me?

Blessings

Jock?

hi! I haven't read any responses yet, so I don't know if someone may have already said this, but my belief would be that God's Word is infallible as it was delivered.

So I love my Strong's Exhaustive concordances, as they provide clues to verses as they were delivered.

"Misinterpretations" like 'hell' are the misinterpretations of humans. So I don't think they are really surprising.

I even think there could be some discrepancies involving census counts, etc, that may have been taken out of the records of men, so discrepancies are not surprising.

I believe Bible reading is a twofold formula: the Word and the Spirit.. the bread and the wine.. daily.

I think if we rely on one and not the other, imo, it's a formula for failure, dreaming, and do's and don'ts..

~~ We can look up every instance of the translation "hell" to find what was originally delivered.

Of course, it gets very tricky when the Greek becomes "hades" from the Biblical "sheol". For "hades" becomes what it is in the Greek! But study upon the word and use of "sheol" (reading all the old testament references) gives us a vision of what Biblical "sheol" was.

"Jesus went to the lower parts of the earth" - the grave (sheol, where neither thought, knowing, nor doing, are)

"hades" as "the realm of the dead" to Greek mythology one thing, but Biblically, imo, still, the place of the dead is the grave.

Jesus said to the thief also crucified "I tell you - today you will be with me in paradise"

Or, "I tell you today - you will be with me in paradise" -- as we can compare it to how He said He would be three nights and three days in the grave...

"Via the Spirit He went and preached to those in prison from the time the ark was being built"

Or is it "Via the Spirit He went and preached, while the ark was being built, to those locked into drowning" because they did not believe and were not going to get into the ark?

And "Gehenna" where Jesus said it is better an arm or an eye go to Gehenna than your whole body. "Gehenna" was the hillside dump where was also burned, the bodies of criminals.

We think of "hell" as the "lake of Fire".. but that's illogical "hell was cast into hell"?

Especially the vision(s) of people will "go to hell" or "go to heaven" at their death. So non-Biblical. Oh my, sentence before trial even.

Jesus said to the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" - this is taken to mean "woe, all hope is lost". But what I think it means is they will lose out on the joy of the 1st resurrection and will rise in the 2nd, still in their sins...

peace and blessings..

[marie glen]

Jock,

I believe most of the mainstream bible translatations are pretty accurate, but they probably all contain some translation errors, because humans translated them.  As older and more reliable manuscripts are found through the years, it becomes more evident that most bibles are good translations.  However, it is important to remember this (this sounds like a shock statement at first, but hear me out): To put it simply, the bible is not God's inerrant word.  It is a translation of God's inspired, inerrant word.  I am aware of only a few translation errors, but most I know of are of major consequence. 

For example, the word "hell."  It should not be in any translation, and is not in some.  The words "Hades" and "Sheol," mistranslated into hell, actually meant, generally speaking, grave.  And the word "Gehenna," often mistranslated "hell" actually was a place, a garbage dump, obviously a figurative term. 

Then there is the word "forever."  The words "olam" and "aion" and their various forms mean "for an age," "for the ages," or "for an indefinite period of time" - not "forever." 

These mistranslations have contributed in a major way to the doctrine of eternal torment. :sigh: These mistranslations come from ignorance, traditional beliefs, manipulation, or just plain human error - or maybe all these. 

But don't be afraid to put your trust in modern bibles, but do choose wisely, and I prefer a translation that at least does not have the words "hell" and "forever" in them.

:thumbsup: :iagree:

[Tom]

I am having to learn and revisit a lot of things because the doctrines etc that were taught me before (30 years worth) were many of them, in error. I'll start with this one:

How can we say that the Bible is the word of God, perfect in every way, knowing that there are mistakes and misinterpretations, for instance, hell!

It is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks to our inner ear and we know the truth by the Amen! I know that the scriptures are profitable for teaching and reproof etc.

Can anybody enlighten me?

Blessings

Jock?

I have also had to forget about church doctrine that I believed for years even after I left the church. I think the best way to do that is to study an accurate translation of scripture. I believe scripture is the inspired written word of God. All the manuscripts used for all translations were copies. Some contain human errors. Everybody has their own preference for their favorite version of scripture. There is no perfect translation, but I prefer the Concordant Version because it translates every word according to the concordance consistently with a very few exceptions for the sake of idiom. Here is a link to a free download of it. http://concordant.org/online/index.html

[Jock]

Sorry guys

I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?

:sigh:

Jock

[JulieTang84]

Sorry guys

I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?

:sigh:

Jock

:friendstu: :HeartThrob: what's to forgive?  :dsunny:

Love Julie   :HeartThrob: