I am having to learn and revisit a lot of things because the doctrines etc that were taught me before (30 years worth) were many of them, in error. I'll start with this one:
How can we say that the Bible is the word of God, perfect in every way, knowing that there are mistakes and misinterpretations, for instance, hell!
It is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks to our inner ear and we know the truth by the Amen! I know that the scriptures are profitable for teaching and reproof etc.
Can anybody enlighten me?
Blessings
Jock?
It's a tool to stop questioning doctrines based on flawed translations.
Hi Jock, this is how I see the Bible. As you, I totally listen to the Holy Spirit as Jesus instructed us to do. This is where all truth comes, as it is given directly and is not based on understanding of interpretation.
Rather, it comes as a warm comforting knowledge, that is bathed in peace and harmony, ie. LOVE. :HeartThrob:
This is Spirit speaking directly to spirit. The Bible. is then used to validate what was given and thus becomes the second required witness.
I know this concept does not bode well with many, but I will leave you with 3 prose vs as I am using my phone and pasting text is a real pain :sigh:
Jesus said to become as little children.
We are told not to lean on our understanding
As well as being told to be still so we may know Father.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie, that was lovely and I agree, that has been my experience, the scriptures validate what the Spirit says and it resounds in the body of Christ. We are Priests unto Him. Thank you, you did very well on your phone!
I found this on Youtube. The scene and singing at the end are a bit funky but I like what the brother says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dj9p1aH69k
Bless you
Jock. :thumbsup:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 26, 2013, 05:40:25 PM
This is where all truth comes, as it is given directly and is not based on understanding of interpretation.
QuoteThis is Spirit speaking directly to spirit. The Bible. is then used to validate what was given and thus becomes the second required witness.
Two conflicting statements.
How can you verify what the HS told you?
Only by interpretation of the written Word.
WW
I understood what Julie meant very clearly, for this is my walk. The Holy Spirit speaks and that (for me at least) is always accompanied by scripture and has the "Amen" in the Body.
From what you wrote, I think you understand that
Jock.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 26, 2013, 06:44:33 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 26, 2013, 05:40:25 PM
This is where all truth comes, as it is given directly and is not based on understanding of interpretation.
QuoteThis is Spirit speaking directly to spirit. The Bible. is then used to validate what was given and thus becomes the second required witness.
Two conflicting statements.
How can you verify what the HS told you?uu
Only by interpretation of the written Word.
Have you never had a A-Ha moment when suddenly the words and the wisdom the contain suddenly become part of you?
I am somewhat surprised by your words of doubt. Are you so sure of your understanding that you must question the words of others?
You see, wisdom from the Holy Spirit becomes as part of one as ones blood. It does not need a witness, it is TRUTH and answers to no one. The Holy Spirit speaks only the words given by Father.
Jesus said that the truth will be heard and the listener will be free. Free from doubt, fear and questions.
So what does this Truth and the Bible have in common? Everything, because now whatever nugget of truth that has been given will now magically appear in the Bible and resonate as if angels were singing. The words become alive. There is nothing to understand, just another step closer to Father.
I really do not know how to explain it better than this.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jock on September 26, 2013, 06:59:49 PM
WW
I understood what Julie meant very clearly, for this is my walk. The Holy Spirit speaks and that (for me at least) is always accompanied by scripture and has the "Amen" in the Body.
From what you wrote, I think you understand that
Jock.
Thanks Jock, thatwas beautifully said.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie
What is "IMO"? Gotta get my computer lingo up to scratch, Ha!
Jock
IMO = In my opionion.
IMHO = In my humble opionion.
OP = Opening post.
PM = Private message.
OTOH = On the other hand.
I'm sure I missed some. :winkgrin:
Jock,
I believe most of the mainstream bible translatations are pretty accurate, but they probably all contain some translation errors, because humans translated them. As older and more reliable manuscripts are found through the years, it becomes more evident that most bibles are good translations. However, it is important to remember this (this sounds like a shock statement at first, but hear me out): To put it simply, the bible is not God's inerrant word. It is a translation of God's inspired, inerrant word. I am aware of only a few translation errors, but most I know of are of major consequence.
For example, the word "hell." It should not be in any translation, and is not in some. The words "Hades" and "Sheol," mistranslated into hell, actually meant, generally speaking, grave. And the word "Gehenna," often mistranslated "hell" actually was a place, a garbage dump, obviously a figurative term.
Then there is the word "forever." The words "olam" and "aion" and their various forms mean "for an age," "for the ages," or "for an indefinite period of time" - not "forever."
These mistranslations have contributed in a major way to the doctrine of eternal torment. :sigh: These mistranslations come from ignorance, traditional beliefs, manipulation, or just plain human error - or maybe all these.
But don't be afraid to put your trust in modern bibles, but do choose wisely, and I prefer a translation that at least does not have the words "hell" and "forever" in them.
:notworthy: Humble yourself before the Lord and his Spirit will guide you in truth.
:Pray: Pray often for understanding, wisdom, and guidance.
:banana: The Father will bless you!
jbertonbounds , thanks and I agree that the Bible is not inerrant. There are a huge amount of believers who would argue on that point. I have witnessed people making a god of their Bible. This is idolatry.
Cheers for now :Peace2:
Jock
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 26, 2013, 07:17:18 PM
Have you never had a A-Ha moment when suddenly the words and the wisdom the contain suddenly become part of you?
Many. And many where false.
QuoteI am somewhat surprised by your words of doubt. Are you so sure of your understanding that you must question the words of others?
Pot and kettle Julie. You question my understanding too.
QuoteYou see, wisdom from the Holy Spirit becomes as part of one as ones blood. It does not need a witness, it is TRUTH and answers to no one. The Holy Spirit speaks only the words given by Father.
True. But that's totally besides the point! Prove it's not satan, your ego or another false source giving you that info.
THAT is my point. It's not questioning Father, Son or HS. It's questioning if it's one of them speaking.
QuoteJesus said that the truth will be heard and the listener will be free. Free from doubt, fear and questions.
Even more lies will be heard.
QuoteSo what does this Truth and the Bible have in common? Everything, because now whatever nugget of truth that has been given will now magically appear in the Bible and resonate as if angels were singing. The words become alive. There is nothing to understand, just another step closer to Father.
So now suddenly you verify with the written Word?
QuoteI really do not know how to explain it better than this.
No need to Julie. I understand your view and in no way I will be convinced things I can't verify in the Bible are facts.
Quote from: Jock on September 26, 2013, 08:40:30 PM
jbertonbounds , thanks and I agree that the Bible is not inerrant. There are a huge amount of believers who would argue on that point. I have witnessed people making a god of their Bible. This is idolatry.
Cheers for now :Peace2:
Jock
Yes many believe the bible, in any translation, is inerrant. I used to be one of those who made even my bible an idol.
WW your words not mine. I do not need to verify any truth given me by the Spirit. of Truth.
The Scriptures merely give witness.
It saddens me that you cannot believe Jesus at his word. This is your path and I love you no less
Jesus spoke of faith and trust as the fruit of faith of truths that cannot be proven. Just as Jesus told Thomas, blessed are thosethat bbelieve who cannot see or touch.
May I ask where the ego is in Pure White LOVE, which is the love giveyn from Father.
I can answer that, but you may not like it.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 26, 2013, 08:15:44 PM
Jock,
I believe most of the mainstream bible translatations are pretty accurate, but they probably all contain some translation errors, because humans translated them. As older and more reliable manuscripts are found through the years, it becomes more evident that most bibles are good translations.
I've read something else...
200 years ago linguists still had to guess nearly 800 NT words. The Dead Sea Scrolls gave great insight too. The problem is that doctrines are set in stone and every bit of info will be twisted to prove the doctrine right. If not possible the info will be rejected.
True, there are translator not bound by church doctrine but I yet have to see a major translation updating their view. Not just spelling or something trival like a name. But doctrinal issues.
QuoteHowever, it is important to remember this (this sounds like a shock statement at first, but hear me out): To put it simply, the bible is not God's inerrant word. It is a translation of God's inspired, inerrant word.
Not even that jbert. It's a translation of corrupted manuscripts.
QuoteI am aware of only a few translation errors
I severly doubt they ever were honest translation errors. But that's of course hard to prove.
Quote, but most I know of are of major consequence.
For example, the word "hell." It should not be in any translation,
The word is not wrong. At the time of translation it also had the meaning of "unseen" (helmet)
Even today it has that meaning. But obvious by far the most primary meaning is total pagan fantasy.
QuoteAnd the word "Gehenna," often mistranslated "hell" actually was a place, a garbage dump, obviously a figurative term.
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 26, 2013, 09:09:14 PM
WW your words not mine. I do not need to verify any truth given me by the Spirit. of Truth.
Unscriptual approach.
QuoteThe Scriptures merely give witness.
That's verification if the interpretation is correct.
QuoteIt saddens me that you cannot believe Jesus at his word.
It saddens me you either don't understand me or totally twist my words.
This is your path and I love you no less
Jesus spoke of faith and trust as the fruit of faith of truths that cannot be proven. Just as Jesus told Thomas, blessed are thosethat bbelieve who cannot see or touch.
QuoteMay I ask where the ego is in Pure White LOVE, which is the love giveyn from Father.
Again either misunderstanding or twisting my words.
QuoteI can answer that, but you may not like it.
It would be more fruitful to actually read my posts and then try to answer my point.
Really if you claim/suggest I don't trust Jesus and similar arguments then you are misunderstanding my posts. And that is putting it
very mildly.
:HeartThrob: :friendstu: :HeartThrob:
Well it seems as if I have totally must your point. Having gone over what you have written several times, your intent of meaning it's still lost to me. :HeartThrob:
So let's just be content with that knowing if we cannot be on the same page with that, at least we can be regarding our love for truth, whichever way it comes.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jock on September 26, 2013, 06:59:49 PM
WW
I understood what Julie meant very clearly, for this is my walk. The Holy Spirit speaks and that (for me at least) is always accompanied by scripture and has the "Amen" in the Body.
From what you wrote, I think you understand that
Jock.
Keep walking Jock. Run Jock run! :banana:
I understand Julie clearly as well (I hope). I just warn against unverified stuff. It can be 100% correct. But it can also be wrong.
When I started studying the Bible halfway 2008 I sorta promised myself to start my personal religion. I only accept what I understand and can prove to the best of my abilities. I'm not someone who bows for authority or the opinion of the masses. Some time people agree with me often they bump heads like in this thread. If I would receive just one credit before the White Throne it would be that I honestly tried :declare:
Quote from: Jock on September 26, 2013, 03:56:25 PM
I am having to learn and revisit a lot of things because the doctrines etc that were taught me before (30 years worth) were many of them, in error. I'll start with this one:
How can we say that the Bible is the word of God, perfect in every way, knowing that there are mistakes and misinterpretations, for instance, hell!
It is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks to our inner ear and we know the truth by the Amen! I know that the scriptures are profitable for teaching and reproof etc.
Can anybody enlighten me?
Blessings
Jock?
hi! I haven't read any responses yet, so I don't know if someone may have already said this, but my belief would be that God's Word is infallible as it was delivered.
So I love my Strong's Exhaustive concordances, as they provide clues to verses as they were delivered.
"Misinterpretations" like 'hell' are the misinterpretations of humans. So I don't think they are really surprising.
I even think there could be some discrepancies involving census counts, etc, that may have been taken out of the records of men, so discrepancies are not surprising.
I believe Bible reading is a twofold formula: the Word and the Spirit.. the bread and the wine.. daily.
I think if we rely on one and not the other, imo, it's a formula for failure, dreaming, and do's and don'ts..
~~ We can look up every instance of the translation "hell" to find what was originally delivered.
Of course, it gets very tricky when the Greek becomes "hades" from the Biblical "sheol". For "hades" becomes what it is in the Greek! But study upon the word and use of "sheol" (reading all the old testament references) gives us a vision of what Biblical "sheol" was.
"Jesus went to the lower parts of the earth" - the grave (sheol, where neither thought, knowing, nor doing, are)
"hades" as "the realm of the dead" to Greek mythology one thing, but Biblically, imo, still, the place of the dead is the grave.
Jesus said to the thief also crucified "I tell you - today you will be with me in paradise"
Or, "I tell you today - you will be with me in paradise" -- as we can compare it to how He said He would be three nights and three days in the grave...
"Via the Spirit He went and preached to those in prison from the time the ark was being built"
Or is it "Via the Spirit He went and preached, while the ark was being built, to those locked into drowning" because they did not believe and were not going to get into the ark?
And "Gehenna" where Jesus said it is better an arm or an eye go to Gehenna than your whole body. "Gehenna" was the hillside dump where was also burned, the bodies of criminals.
We think of "hell" as the "lake of Fire".. but that's illogical "hell was cast into hell"?
Especially the vision(s) of people will "go to hell" or "go to heaven" at their death. So non-Biblical. Oh my, sentence before trial even.
Jesus said to the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" - this is taken to mean "woe, all hope is lost". But what I think it means is they will lose out on the joy of the 1st resurrection and will rise in the 2nd, still in their sins...
peace and blessings..
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 26, 2013, 08:15:44 PM
Jock,
I believe most of the mainstream bible translatations are pretty accurate, but they probably all contain some translation errors, because humans translated them. As older and more reliable manuscripts are found through the years, it becomes more evident that most bibles are good translations. However, it is important to remember this (this sounds like a shock statement at first, but hear me out): To put it simply, the bible is not God's inerrant word. It is a translation of God's inspired, inerrant word. I am aware of only a few translation errors, but most I know of are of major consequence.
For example, the word "hell." It should not be in any translation, and is not in some. The words "Hades" and "Sheol," mistranslated into hell, actually meant, generally speaking, grave. And the word "Gehenna," often mistranslated "hell" actually was a place, a garbage dump, obviously a figurative term.
Then there is the word "forever." The words "olam" and "aion" and their various forms mean "for an age," "for the ages," or "for an indefinite period of time" - not "forever."
These mistranslations have contributed in a major way to the doctrine of eternal torment. :sigh: These mistranslations come from ignorance, traditional beliefs, manipulation, or just plain human error - or maybe all these.
But don't be afraid to put your trust in modern bibles, but do choose wisely, and I prefer a translation that at least does not have the words "hell" and "forever" in them.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Quote from: Jock on September 26, 2013, 03:56:25 PM
I am having to learn and revisit a lot of things because the doctrines etc that were taught me before (30 years worth) were many of them, in error. I'll start with this one:
How can we say that the Bible is the word of God, perfect in every way, knowing that there are mistakes and misinterpretations, for instance, hell!
It is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks to our inner ear and we know the truth by the Amen! I know that the scriptures are profitable for teaching and reproof etc.
Can anybody enlighten me?
Blessings
Jock?
I have also had to forget about church doctrine that I believed for years even after I left the church. I think the best way to do that is to study an accurate translation of scripture. I believe scripture is the inspired written word of God. All the manuscripts used for all translations were copies. Some contain human errors. Everybody has their own preference for their favorite version of scripture. There is no perfect translation, but I prefer the Concordant Version because it translates every word according to the concordance consistently with a very few exceptions for the sake of idiom. Here is a link to a free download of it. http://concordant.org/online/index.html
Sorry guys
I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?
:sigh:
Jock
Quote from: Jock on September 27, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
Sorry guys
I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?
:sigh:
Jock
:friendstu: :HeartThrob: what's to forgive? :dsunny:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jock on September 27, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
Sorry guys
I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?
:sigh:
Jock
Every question potentially causes strife. Never stop searching/asking because of that fact Jock!
Tom, thanks for that link but I just purchased a copy quite recently.
A couple of things: Jesus said "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Jesus spoke a lot about "hearing".
What did He mean? In those days there was no Bible. He didn't say "I have to leave you but I will send the Bible to comfort you, He said, the comforter AKA Holy Spirit.
The disciples apart from maybe Mathew and Luke, even Judas were illiterate and Jesus spoke Aramaic, so the books of the Bible, Gospels etc, must have been penned by scribes. I say, that the validity or non validity of scripture is illuminated by the Holy Spirit. What we are involved in is not Bible Study but relationship, and searching the scriptures is an outflow of wanting to know our Lord and each other, better.
Bless you all, my brothers and sisters :dsunny:
Jock.
Quote from: Jock on September 27, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
Sorry guys
I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?
:sigh:
Jock
You have not caused any strife or division.There is nothing to forgive.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2013, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: Jock on September 27, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
Sorry guys
I didn't want to cause any strife or division. Not my intention, please forgive?
:sigh:
Jock
Every question potentially causes strife. Never stop searching/asking because of that fact Jock!
:laughing7: hahah! isn't thAt the truth?! :smile:
I had a sort of low level brainstorm this morning and was thinking it's not that we need strive to learn/decide what doctrines and ideas are true and what not true,
so much as it is a dwelling and abiding in His Word.. we in it, and "His Word abides in us"...
"do this in remembrance of me" Jesus instructed, on the very eve of His crucifixion which leads me to think literal bread and wine was not his major intent! but daily bread, with the new wine of His Spirit..
If we are reading His Word as a regular and integral part of our life, then our "mind is being renewed" which is a natural process of faith, and is
not one of works..
:Peace2:
p.s - especially once we've learned the error translations of 'hell' (the grave, and men like seeds planted..?) and 'forever' (iaon / age / duration of time however long it may be)
Quote from: marie glen on September 27, 2013, 07:25:15 PM
I had a sort of low level brainstorm this morning and was thinking it's not that we need strive to learn/decide what doctrines and ideas are true and what not true, so much as it is a dwelling and abiding in His Word.. we in it, and "His Word abides in us"...
"do this in remembrance of me" Jesus instructed, on the very eve of His crucifixion which leads me to think literal bread and wine was not his major intent! but daily bread, with the new wine of His Spirit..
If we are reading His Word as a regular and integral part of our life, then our "mind is being renewed" which is a natural process of faith, and is not one of works..
:Peace2:
p.s - especially once we've learned the error translations of 'hell' (the grave, and men like seeds planted..?) and 'forever' (iaon / age / duration of time however long it may be)
Such a good point, Marie. We tend to focus on doctrine more than love, and on being right more than being in the Father's presence. How can he teach us if we are not in his presence?
I often think, If I were mostly ignorant of any doctrine, scriptural teachings, or mistranslations, yet I put my faith in Jesus, loved others like I love myself, and took care of others like I take care of myself, then I am so much more in tune with god's precepts than if I had knowledge, yet did not love others.
Say we discovered an island of people who for intents and purposes
had been completely separated from us sort of like when an early explorer
discover a new tribe of people.
As an evangelical would you rather send them one man filled with the Spirit.
Or would you send them a thousand bibles and the top ten bible scholars.
Would God send just one man filled with the Spirit.
If I would receive just one credit before the White Throne it would be that I honestly believed Jesus did please the Father.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 27, 2013, 08:47:58 PM
I often think, If I were mostly ignorant of any doctrine, scriptural teachings, or mistranslations, yet I put my faith in Jesus, loved others like I love myself, and took care of others like I take care of myself, then I am so much more in tune with god's precepts than if I had knowledge, yet did not love others.
Amen, amen! :smile: :thumbsup:
Remember, you won't be judged by what you believe, but by your deeds.
Rev 20:12-13 [NIV]
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
but don'tforget this! God's judgement..at this very important time........through one man/first
Adam..sin entered all men[God wrapped allmen up indisobediance...Jesus testified the prince
ofthis world isjudged that his works are wicked...andthrough thefreegiftof righteousness..through
the righteousness of one man[last Adam] all menshall b econstituted righteous......
.....if you leavethis out of the equation..you will mistakenly thinkyou aresavedof your own works...
and not the free gift of Grace through Christ...or your righteousness through Christ. by faith
...and mercy..triumphs over judgement...and the free gift is given.........
now,just as the 12hour workers in the vineyard felt they deserved more..then the 1 hour
workers......when it come to /wages.
there will be men that beleive those who did greater works of evil deserve more wages of death
also[the wagesofsinis death] anything added or taken away from His perfect judgement..is of
the evil one.
now any stripes received..are before death,as Jesus our pattern son shows..... there are certain
covenat curses. that take effect[cursed is the earth on your account 1st Adam]inregard
t othis knowledge of good/evil......those who know to do good and don't receive more stripes
Quote from: sheila on September 29, 2013, 01:39:48 AM
but don'tforget this! God's judgement..at this very important time........through one man/first
Adam..sin entered all men[God wrapped allmen up indisobediance...Jesus testified the prince
ofthis world isjudged that his works are wicked...andthrough thefreegiftof righteousness..through
the righteousness of one man[last Adam] all menshall b econstituted righteous......
.....if you leavethis out of the equation..you will mistakenly thinkyou aresavedof your own works...
and not the free gift of Grace through Christ...or your righteousness through Christ. by faith
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Sheila, I agree completely, but somehow we are almost afraid of doing good works, wondering about the motive and such. Here it says good works were prepared for us to walk in them. I see this like any good parent training up children to be good and do good.
I agree Bushy........a heartfulloflove and appreciationforwhat God andJesus has donefor us...
should impel us t ooffer ourselves in love unto Him..and to love our fellow man as ourselves.
any worksnotdone from this love motive...is vanity...andtheir worship is vain.
Quote from: sheila on September 29, 2013, 10:41:35 PM
I agree Bushy........a heartfulloflove and appreciationforwhat God andJesus has donefor us...
should impel us t ooffer ourselves in love unto Him..and to love our fellow man as ourselves.
any worksnotdone from this love motive...is vanity...andtheir worship is vain.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 29, 2013, 12:40:40 AM
Remember, you won't be judged by what you believe, but by your deeds.
Rev 20:12-13 [NIV]
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Remember you won't be judged by what you did.But rather you will be judged by what Christ did .
I personelly am not waiting for a book to be opened .
My book the book of life has been opened and no one or no thing can close it.
This is just an opinion it is not a 13 word doctrine developed from a verse numbered 13 in the book of revelation .
We cannot work for our salvation and it is a good thing to check the heart "before the Lord" before embarking on some endeavour in His name.
But there should be works that are the natural outflow of the Spirit of God. If those are inspired by love then God will endorse it, because God IS Love!
Just my :2c:
Jock.
PS. I have blown it many times, thankfully, God is merciful :dsunny:
jb; ref to..youwon't bejudged by what you beleive.........carefulbrother..what bout the ones
whohave nolove for truth and beleive a lie...like say our ancestor Adam and Eve.......
or....'if I had notcome and spoke to you..you would havenosin...butnow your sinsremain.
just sayin...it's real easy for allof us to mis-step before weknow it.
We believers who will be justified and vivified in Christ will not be judged and condemned with the dead before the great white throne a thousand years later. We will be requited in front of the dais of Christ.
"11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.
12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.
13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.
14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15)
"11 The Great White Throne judgment has no place for those who are Christ's, for they have all been made alive and have been enjoying eonian life for more than a millennium.
Temple Section—Jerusalem
12 This is not a "general" judgment, though it approaches nearer to it than any other. Only the dead appear before this throne. Those who are Christ's will have been made alive at His presence more than a thousand years before (1Co.15:23). Those who are His will not die during the thousand years, nor can they be hurt by the second death. Hence only those who have not believed in Christ appear in this judgment. They will all receive their just deserts, according to their acts, during the period between their resurrection and second death. Hence they are condemned, for all fall short of God's standard. They are not vivified, or made alive, as the saints are, by a better resurrection, hence they die again.
13 Thus all evil is segregated in the lake of fire, where Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet already are (20:10). "This is the second death" defines the lake of fire. Those who have been raised from death return to the same state in the second death. The only immunity from condemnation lies in having a place in the scroll of life." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 404)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
"14 If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages.
15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14,15)
"14 Let all who teach take this to heart: their work will be tested to see what kind it is. It is better to have a little after the fire than much before it.
15 The question here is not salvation, but service. It is not concerned with the conduct of the believer but with the doctrine of those who teach." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 251)
Quote from: Jock on October 03, 2013, 07:29:25 PM
We cannot work for our salvation and it is a good thing to check the heart "before the Lord" before embarking on some endeavour in His name.
But there should be works that are the natural outflow of the Spirit of God. If those are inspired by love then God will endorse it, because God IS Love!
Just my :2c:
Jock.
PS. I have blown it many times, thankfully, God is merciful :dsunny:
There were two groups of people Jesus said to ;
Group 1)Depart from me you workers of inequity . (I'm not sure if this is the right word but it sounds similar.)
Group 2) Come sit and sup with me.
I like the idea of being part of Group 2)
That group is standing before Jesus and he says
Hey great to have you guys here you did so much work for me.
They have a stund look on their face.
They reply we don't remember doing any work for you
'Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
If you have extra fruit on your trees and your barns are full
and you let the hungry strangers pick and keep the fruit that was just going to rot anyway.
Your heart is delighted to see that although it wasn't a work on your part.
others are being helped by the blessings that God has given you.
I love love love this kind of work.