Dreamin

[ded2daworld]

My wife is ET. She talks in her sleep. Last night she shouted out (while sleeping) "Jesus Christ died for your sins" I asked her what that was about when she awoke a few minutes later. She said that a man was being chased by a demon in her dream and that was all she could think of to say.

Did Jesus die for EVERYONE'S SINS? Her favorite preacher, John MacArthur says NO. God HATES those that don't believe and therefore he didn't die for those that don't accept him in this life.
Either we are responsible for our own salvation or we are not.
Since the Bible is clear that "God is the author and finisher of our faith" I propose that we are not responsible for basically "saving ourselves"
The world consists of all mankind, saints and sinners alike,
and seeing Jesus, John(the baptizer) said, "LOOK! (pointing to Jesus) There goes the saviour of the WORLD."
I submit that Jesus died for all the sins of all humanity.
Regarding those that don't "Accept" Christ as Saviour before they die, he warns them plainly, they will die in their sins. :Peace2:

[Ross]

He certainly did die for us all.
Those who are not in the first group miss out on the excitement of being in the first humungus change.
Humungus- huge, gigantic, awesome [ one of those local terms.]

[Tom]

My wife is ET. She talks in her sleep. Last night she shouted out (while sleeping) "Jesus Christ died for your sins" I asked her what that was about when she awoke a few minutes later. She said that a man was being chased by a demon in her dream and that was all she could think of to say.

Did Jesus die for EVERYONE'S SINS? Her favorite preacher, John MacArthur says NO. God HATES those that don't believe and therefore he didn't die for those that don't accept him in this life.
Either we are responsible for our own salvation or we are not.
Since the Bible is clear that "God is the author and finisher of our faith" I propose that we are not responsible for basically "saving ourselves"
The world consists of all mankind, saints and sinners alike,
and seeing Jesus, John(the baptizer) said, "LOOK! (pointing to Jesus) There goes the saviour of the WORLD."
I submit that Jesus died for all the sins of all humanity.
Regarding those that don't "Accept" Christ as Saviour before they die, he warns them plainly, they will die in their sins. :Peace2:

"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God.

The word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ.

The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the inspired written word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.

Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God.

Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain Colossians 1:20 that says all will be reconciled through Christ.

The church says most people will be tortured alive in "hell fire" forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.

So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/TheGrandestTruth.html

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[VineBranch]

He certainly did die for us all.
Those who are not in the first group miss out on the excitement of being in the first humungus change.
Humungus- huge, gigantic, awesome [ one of those local terms.]

I'm sorry guys, but as of late I have seen a few posts which tell me that the only thing being a Christian does is get you through the first eons.  Then everything becomes nice again.  Is that it then?  Is Christianity nothing more that the invite to a eons long party.  Not being a Christian simply means you sleep through the party and wake up at the end where everything is okay?

If it is, okay.  I just thought there was more to being a Christian than somehow getting an invite to an elite group.  Given the choice, I think I would rather sleep until the All comes and then move on from there.

[rjohnson741]

He certainly did die for us all.
Those who are not in the first group miss out on the excitement of being in the first humungus change.
Humungus- huge, gigantic, awesome [ one of those local terms.]

I'm sorry guys, but as of late I have seen a few posts which tell me that the only thing being a Christian does is get you through the first eons.  Then everything becomes nice again.  Is that it then?  Is Christianity nothing more that the invite to a eons long party.  Not being a Christian simply means you sleep through the party and wake up at the end where everything is okay?

If it is, okay.  I just thought there was more to being a Christian than somehow getting an invite to an elite group.  Given the choice, I think I would rather sleep until the All comes and then move on from there.

As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):

"Go ye therefore,  and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:18.

"Let your light so shine before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" MATTHEW 5:16.

As God's elect, Christians will continue the preaching of the gospel and teaching the nations in the eons to come. Christians will also be a light to those in the lake of fire, so they can see their good works, and they too will want to glorify the Father.

This is the wonderful and glorious purpose of God's elect or Christians, now and in the eons to come.

[VineBranch]

As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):

"Go ye therefore,  and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:18.

"Let your light so shine before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" MATTHEW 5:16.

As God's elect, Christians will continue the preaching of the gospel and teaching the nations in the eons to come. Christians will also be a light to those in the lake of fire, so they can see their good works, and they too will want to glorify the Father.

This is the wonderful and glorious purpose of God's elect or Christians, now and in the eons to come.

I respect your itemizations rj, you're a lot of help in sorting things out.  But I thought those who didn't receive Christ were asleep until the eons are over.  To whom then are we preaching in the eons?

[Ross]

I'm sorry guys, but as of late I have seen a few posts which tell me that the only thing being a Christian does is get you through the first eons.  Then everything becomes nice again.  Is that it then?  Is Christianity nothing more that the invite to a eons long party.  Not being a Christian simply means you sleep through the party and wake up at the end where everything is okay?


Hi VineBranch;

On the surface  this concept seems to promote  that we just loll about and do nothing. However, knowing that we do not earn our position does not give us the right to not love others or not do things for them to help and encourage them. To do this so that we rate others more than ourselves is what Paul said in Phil 2;3

Christ gave us the prime example of this by taking on the form of a servant. To me this seems to indicate that we are not to abuse our position, take it for granted, or assume that we are just going to be playing harps and doing what we want.
To be in the position of rated above angels we have to learn the right way to do stuff. We have one Father who is teaching us to do NOTHING in rivalry or vain-glory.

Those who did not receive Christ to this point are not aware of the program. Does not make them useless or of no value, just puts them like Paul when he was known as Saul.
1 Tim 1;12-16 " And I give thanks to Him who enabled me- Christ Jesus our Lord- that He did reckon me stedfast, having PUT ON me to the ministration,
who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting,   [ sound like some ministers and colleagues I know ]
and I found kindness because, BEING IGNORANT I DID IT IN UNBELIEF,
and exceedingly did the grace of our Lord abound with faith and love THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS:
stedfast is the word and worthy of all acceptance that Christ Jesus came in to save sinners- of whom I am the first;
but because of this I found kindness, that in me Christ Jesus might show forth all patience for a pattern of those about to believe on Him to life age-during."

Did Paul sit back and do nothing?

1 Cor 15;10 " By the grace of God I am what I amand His grace that is towards me did not come in vain, but I did labor more abundantly than they all,
YET NOT I , BUT THE GRACE OF GOD that is within me."

Seems to be a bit more than an invite. Rather seems a position of responsibility with the right system of values.

[rjohnson741]

As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):

"Go ye therefore,  and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:18.

"Let your light so shine before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" MATTHEW 5:16.

As God's elect, Christians will continue the preaching of the gospel and teaching the nations in the eons to come. Christians will also be a light to those in the lake of fire, so they can see their good works, and they too will want to glorify the Father.

This is the wonderful and glorious purpose of God's elect or Christians, now and in the eons to come.

I respect your itemizations rj, you're a lot of help in sorting things out.  But I thought those who didn't receive Christ were asleep until the eons are over.  To whom then are we preaching in the eons?

Hi VineBranch. Thanks for listening to my comments. You're question is interesting and thought provoking, and your question deserves a Biblical answer.
The fact is, those who don't receive Christ will be physically alive but still spiritually dead in the eons to come. Remember before we believed in Christ we were still dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1-5).
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin. That's why Revelation 20:12-15 describes those standing before God as dead. The lake of fire of course is for chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying for those in the lake of fire. After this chastening and cleansing, they can be vivified or made alive spiritually.
I hoped this addressed your question. Blessings.

[VineBranch]

Seems to be a bit more than an invite. Rather seems a position of responsibility with the right system of values.

Thanks Ross.  I meant after we die however.  Or does the responsibility go on?  If Christ is there in person would He not be the best  example and wouldn't I just be getting in the way if He is still ministering to them? 

[VineBranch]

Hi VineBranch. Thanks for listening to my comments. You're question is interesting and thought provoking, and your question deserves a Biblical answer.
The fact is, those who don't receive Christ will be physically alive but still spiritually dead in the eons to come. Remember before we believed in Christ we were still dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1-5).
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin. That's why Revelation 20:12-15 describes those standing before God as dead. The lake of fire of course is for chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying for those in the lake of fire. After this chastening and cleansing, they can be vivified or made alive spiritually.
I hoped this addressed your question. Blessings.

Hey RJ:

Your answer intrigues me.  I don't think I grasp it all but I see the method.  I am a little confused however about the physical vs. spiritual conditions after death.

If the unbelievers are physically alive and spiritually dead standing before the throne of God wouldn't the fact that they were there give them a clue and wouldn't any sane person repent instantly if they saw God face to face on a throne?

I don't get the lake of fire.  If the lake of fire is for "chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying", and the people in the lake of fire a physically alive, are they being chastened, cleansed, purged and purified physically?  I ask this because I can't see how if they are dead spiritually they can be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified spiritually:  there is nothing there to work with.  If their spirits are to be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified, wouldn't their spirits have to be made alive first?  If so, they wouldn't be dead ... right?

Secondly, if they are alive physically, wouldn't the lake of fire kill them?  I'm guessing it's wickedly hot.

[rjohnson741]

Hi VineBranch. Thanks for listening to my comments. You're question is interesting and thought provoking, and your question deserves a Biblical answer.
The fact is, those who don't receive Christ will be physically alive but still spiritually dead in the eons to come. Remember before we believed in Christ we were still dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1-5).
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin. That's why Revelation 20:12-15 describes those standing before God as dead. The lake of fire of course is for chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying for those in the lake of fire. After this chastening and cleansing, they can be vivified or made alive spiritually.
I hoped this addressed your question. Blessings.

Hey RJ:

Your answer intrigues me.  I don't think I grasp it all but I see the method.  I am a little confused however about the physical vs. spiritual conditions after death.

If the unbelievers are physically alive and spiritually dead standing before the throne of God wouldn't the fact that they were there give them a clue and wouldn't any sane person repent instantly if they saw God face to face on a throne?

I don't get the lake of fire.  If the lake of fire is for "chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying", and the people in the lake of fire a physically alive, are they being chastened, cleansed, purged and purified physically?  I ask this because I can't see how if they are dead spiritually they can be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified spiritually:  there is nothing there to work with.  If their spirits are to be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified, wouldn't their spirits have to be made alive first?  If so, they wouldn't be dead ... right?

Secondly, if they are alive physically, wouldn't the lake of fire kill them?  I'm guessing it's wickedly hot.

"The wicked and unbelievers in the lake of fire being chastened is the beginning of regeneration or given spiritual life, and being made anew.
Secondly, the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and metaphors. Keeping that in mind, why would you think the fire is a literal or physical place? Look at these scriptures:

"If any man's works shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" 1Corinthians 3:15.

For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" Mark 9:49.

"And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Revelation 14:10.

"For our God is a consuming fire" Hebrews 12:29.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love" 1John 4:8.

I believe the lake of fire is not a literal or physical place. I believe the lake of fire is a condition of emotional and spiritual torment on the wicked and unbelievers. I bellieve the lake of fire is a metaphor for God's tormenting love on the wicked and unbelievers.
 

 

[ded2daworld]

From RJJohnson

"God's tormenting love"

Now there is an interesting phrase :Chinscratch:

[JulieTang84]

As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):

Father please forgive me if I am still so naive. I have still, such a huge problem with the Word "Christian" I really do not refer myself as one. This is NOT an attack on you RJ  :friendstu: it is just lil Julie sharing her heart yet again.

For so many years, even to this day: all I here is would be followers of our dear Lord Jesus Christ speak of the most heinous of things to the very people that Jesus told us to Love and care for. I have yet to find a more polarized / divided people than the Group called Christians.

I do not believe that ALL who profess to be Christian are called by God to be a beacon of light for all, to shed peace and love on all. So many are CINO (Christian in name only) I have family members who "have" to believe in ET because they have to play it safe. They can live the way they want, condemning who they want, simply because they have called on the name of Jesus. Yes, I love them, even though they condemn me.

Strange how Jesus never condemned anyone.   :HeartThrob:

So am I a Christian? I don't think so. I am a child of the most Loving Father and a sister to Jesus Christ.

There is no "Us" and "Them" No division, for we are told to love All as much and as dearly as we love ourselves. Father can certainly put me in any group he so desires, all I am called to do is to Love and give Love 24/7.

Love Julie   :HeartThrob: 

[VineBranch]

Secondly, the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and metaphors. Keeping that in mind, why would you think the fire is a literal or physical place?

Well, because you said the people were physically alive and spiritually dead.  Then you said:

Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.

You never mentioned metaphor anywhere.  In fact, when you asked, "How can physically dead people stand? ", you pretty much wiped out any notion of things being taken metaphorically:  you insisted only physically alive people can stand;  therefore stand can't be metaphorical.  If something as innocuous as 'stand' can't be a metaphor, I don't see how anything could be.

[rjohnson741]

Secondly, the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and metaphors. Keeping that in mind, why would you think the fire is a literal or physical place?

Well, because you said the people were physically alive and spiritually dead.  Then you said:

Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.

You never mentioned metaphor anywhere.  In fact, when you asked, "How can physically dead people stand? ", you pretty much wiped out any notion of things being taken metaphorically:  you insisted only physically alive people can stand;  therefore stand can't be metaphorical.  If something as innocuous as 'stand' can't be a metaphor, I don't see how anything could be.

The lake of fire must be taken as symbolic and as a metaphor, because if the fire was literal, it would completely burn up  physical bodies. 

[VineBranch]

The lake of fire must be taken as symbolic and as a metaphor, because if the fire was literal, it would completely burn up  physical bodies.

So, are you saying they are physically thrown into a symbolic and metaphorical lake of fire?  Now I'm more confused then normal.

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling047.htm

[rjohnson741]

The lake of fire must be taken as symbolic and as a metaphor, because if the fire was literal, it would completely burn up  physical bodies.

So, are you saying they are physically thrown into a symbolic and metaphorical lake of fire?  Now I'm more confused then normal.

The book of Revelation was written in symbolic and figurative langue.
As long as we look at that langue as literal it will confuse us:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" Revelation 20:15. No one is literally being cast into a literal lake of fire because their names were not written in a literal book of life. The langue is symbolic and figurative.

"And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" Revelation 14:10. Do you believe people are being literally tormented in the presence of a literal Lamb? Of course not. The Lamb of course is figurative, and symbolic for Jesus Chist---" Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" John 1:29.

The book of Revelation also speaks of a wild beast who will rule the earth and a dragon who will give this beast his power(Revelation 13). If we take the wild beast, the dragon, the Lamb, and the lake of fire as literal  then of course we will be confused.   

[mplsfitter539]

As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):

Father please forgive me if I am still so naive. I have still, such a huge problem with the Word "Christian" I really do not refer myself as one. This is NOT an attack on you RJ  :friendstu: it is just lil Julie sharing her heart yet again.

For so many years, even to this day: all I here is would be followers of our dear Lord Jesus Christ speak of the most heinous of things to the very people that Jesus told us to Love and care for. I have yet to find a more polarized / divided people than the Group called Christians.

I do not believe that ALL who profess to be Christian are called by God to be a beacon of light for all, to shed peace and love on all. So many are CINO (Christian in name only) I have family members who "have" to believe in ET because they have to play it safe. They can live the way they want, condemning who they want, simply because they have called on the name of Jesus. Yes, I love them, even though they condemn me.

Strange how Jesus never condemned anyone.   :HeartThrob:

So am I a Christian? I don't think so. I am a child of the most Loving Father and a sister to Jesus Christ.

There is no "Us" and "Them" No division, for we are told to love All as much and as dearly as we love ourselves. Father can certainly put me in any group he so desires, all I am called to do is to Love and give Love 24/7.

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

Julie I could not agree more. I stopped using the label of "Christian" because I am embarrassed of that label. I don't want to be lumped into a group of mostly hypocrites who believe they can live any way they like when they are not striving to live Christ like. Most practice all of the pagan holy days and say they are doing it for Yahweh. Yahweh clearly says:

Jeremiah 10

10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

[Tom]

As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):

Father please forgive me if I am still so naive. I have still, such a huge problem with the Word "Christian" I really do not refer myself as one. This is NOT an attack on you RJ  :friendstu: it is just lil Julie sharing her heart yet again.

For so many years, even to this day: all I here is would be followers of our dear Lord Jesus Christ speak of the most heinous of things to the very people that Jesus told us to Love and care for. I have yet to find a more polarized / divided people than the Group called Christians.

I do not believe that ALL who profess to be Christian are called by God to be a beacon of light for all, to shed peace and love on all. So many are CINO (Christian in name only) I have family members who "have" to believe in ET because they have to play it safe. They can live the way they want, condemning who they want, simply because they have called on the name of Jesus. Yes, I love them, even though they condemn me.

Strange how Jesus never condemned anyone.   :HeartThrob:

So am I a Christian? I don't think so. I am a child of the most Loving Father and a sister to Jesus Christ.

There is no "Us" and "Them" No division, for we are told to love All as much and as dearly as we love ourselves. Father can certainly put me in any group he so desires, all I am called to do is to Love and give Love 24/7.

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

Julie I could not agree more. I stopped using the label of "Christian" because I am embarrassed of that label. I don't want to be lumped into a group of mostly hypocrites who believe they can live any way they like when they are not striving to live Christ like. Most practice all of the pagan holy days and say they are doing it for Yahweh. Yahweh clearly says:

Jeremiah 10

10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

I prefer to call myself a believer even though I don't think we should allow the hypocrites to hijack the word "Christian," but unfortunately what is commonly called "Christianity" is based on the creeds of the Roman Empire which I no longer believe in. I prefer to call it "churchianity" because it's all about church doctrine and tradition that contradicts the word of God.

"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)

At some point I decided to get out of the church and just get into the word of God because I believe it is sufficient.

[Ross]

Hi VineBranch;

Thanks Ross.  I meant after we die however.  Or does the responsibility go on?  If Christ is there in person would He not be the best  example and wouldn't I just be getting in the way if He is still ministering to them? 

I actually see that as on going in the resurrection, working WITH our brother Christ. Working in the heavenly kingdom.
Paul  says;
Col 1;23 " ... the good news, which you heard, which was preached in all creation that is UNDER the heaven..."
Col 3;1,2 " If then you were raised with Christ seek the things above, where the Christ is seated on the right hand of God, mind you the things above, NOT the things on the earth."

[VineBranch]

Here then is my confusion.

You said in a former post

Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.

So, (your words) "these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected"; also (your words again) "So those in the lake of fire are physically alive..."

Then you just said

The book of Revelation was written in symbolic and figurative langue.
As long as we look at that langue as literal it will confuse us:

On the one hand you claim they are physically alive, and on the other hand you say Revelation is a book of symbols and metaphors.  It's your presentation which confuses me.  How do you know they aren't metaphorically alive?  You really can't have both of these statements being true at the same time.

[VineBranch]

I actually see that as on going in the resurrection, working WITH our brother Christ. Working in the heavenly kingdom.
Paul  says;

Ongoing?  You mean parts of me are resurrected and other parts aren't?

[rjohnson741]

Here then is my confusion.

You said in a former post

Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.

So, (your words) "these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected"; also (your words again) "So those in the lake of fire are physically alive..."

Then you just said

The book of Revelation was written in symbolic and figurative langue.
As long as we look at that langue as literal it will confuse us:

On the one hand you claim they are physically alive, and on the other hand you say Revelation is a book of symbols and metaphors.  It's your presentation which confuses me.  How do you know they aren't metaphorically alive?  You really can't have both of these statements being true at the same time.

Before I continue. Can I ask you a question? I know you are not sure of what Revelation 20:11-15 means or the Book of Revelation in general means. But can you give me your understanding of at least what you think it means? Then maybe we can go from there. Blessings.

[VineBranch]

Before I continue. Can I ask you a question? I know you are not sure of what Revelation 20:11-15 means or the Book of Revelation in general means. But can you give me your understanding of at least what you think it means? Then maybe we can go from there. Blessings.

Thank you for your concern. I have no idea what the book of Revelations means.  When I was younger I thought it was a really neat book describing the end of the world and the things which I had come to know as real.  Then I talked to some pastors and learned men.  They told me it was a mysterious book which should only be attempted by people of great spiritual and intellectual prowess.

Later still I met a man who was an 'expert' on the book of Revelations.  He was filled with fantastical explanations of a dragon and how it was Satan, and how the grand minutiae inherent in the book is worthy of a lifetime of study.  He had really colourful pictures and basically kinda talked to himself in front of the audience.  I think the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, but that could have been someone else.

Then I talked to someone who told me that Revelations was meant to read as a warning to the Romans and the leaders of the day.  John apparently was writing to his contemporaries.  All the revelations and prophecies were already gone.  He used Calvinistic language so I think he was a preterist.

When I took a course on the Bible as literature, no one really talked about the validity.  Most of us English majors and minors looked at the language as just the neatest things around.

When I took some courses through the Religious Studies department, the prof (although a Hebrew scholar of some renown) thought the whole thing malarkey.

Personally I like thinking it's a kinda a guide book through the end times.  But I really haven't clue, what it is, should be, or wants to be.