My wife is ET. She talks in her sleep. Last night she shouted out (while sleeping) "Jesus Christ died for your sins" I asked her what that was about when she awoke a few minutes later. She said that a man was being chased by a demon in her dream and that was all she could think of to say.
Did Jesus die for EVERYONE'S SINS? Her favorite preacher, John MacArthur says NO. God HATES those that don't believe and therefore he didn't die for those that don't accept him in this life.
Either we are responsible for our own salvation or we are not.
Since the Bible is clear that "God is the author and finisher of our faith" I propose that we are not responsible for basically "saving ourselves"
The world consists of all mankind, saints and sinners alike,
and seeing Jesus, John(the baptizer) said, "LOOK! (pointing to Jesus) There goes the saviour of the WORLD."
I submit that Jesus died for all the sins of all humanity.
Regarding those that don't "Accept" Christ as Saviour before they die, he warns them plainly, they will die in their sins. :Peace2:
He certainly did die for us all.
Those who are not in the first group miss out on the excitement of being in the first humungus change.
Humungus- huge, gigantic, awesome [ one of those local terms.]
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 04, 2013, 07:48:20 AM
My wife is ET. She talks in her sleep. Last night she shouted out (while sleeping) "Jesus Christ died for your sins" I asked her what that was about when she awoke a few minutes later. She said that a man was being chased by a demon in her dream and that was all she could think of to say.
Did Jesus die for EVERYONE'S SINS? Her favorite preacher, John MacArthur says NO. God HATES those that don't believe and therefore he didn't die for those that don't accept him in this life.
Either we are responsible for our own salvation or we are not.
Since the Bible is clear that "God is the author and finisher of our faith" I propose that we are not responsible for basically "saving ourselves"
The world consists of all mankind, saints and sinners alike,
and seeing Jesus, John(the baptizer) said, "LOOK! (pointing to Jesus) There goes the saviour of the WORLD."
I submit that Jesus died for all the sins of all humanity.
Regarding those that don't "Accept" Christ as Saviour before they die, he warns them plainly, they will die in their sins. :Peace2:
"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God.
The word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ.
The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the inspired written word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.
Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God.
Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain Colossians 1:20 that says all will be reconciled through Christ.
The church says most people will be tortured alive in "hell fire" forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/TheGrandestTruth.html
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Quote from: Ross on September 04, 2013, 10:53:08 AM
He certainly did die for us all.
Those who are not in the first group miss out on the excitement of being in the first humungus change.
Humungus- huge, gigantic, awesome [ one of those local terms.]
I'm sorry guys, but as of late I have seen a few posts which tell me that the only thing being a Christian does is get you through the first eons. Then everything becomes nice again. Is that it then? Is Christianity nothing more that the invite to a eons long party. Not being a Christian simply means you sleep through the party and wake up at the end where everything is okay?
If it is, okay. I just thought there was more to being a Christian than somehow getting an invite to an elite group. Given the choice, I think I would rather sleep until the All comes and then move on from there.
Quote from: VineBranch on September 05, 2013, 05:17:06 AM
Quote from: Ross on September 04, 2013, 10:53:08 AM
He certainly did die for us all.
Those who are not in the first group miss out on the excitement of being in the first humungus change.
Humungus- huge, gigantic, awesome [ one of those local terms.]
I'm sorry guys, but as of late I have seen a few posts which tell me that the only thing being a Christian does is get you through the first eons. Then everything becomes nice again. Is that it then? Is Christianity nothing more that the invite to a eons long party. Not being a Christian simply means you sleep through the party and wake up at the end where everything is okay?
If it is, okay. I just thought there was more to being a Christian than somehow getting an invite to an elite group. Given the choice, I think I would rather sleep until the All comes and then move on from there.
As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:18.
"Let your light so shine before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" MATTHEW 5:16.
As God's elect, Christians will continue the preaching of the gospel and teaching the nations in the eons to come. Christians will also be a light to those in the lake of fire, so they can see their good works, and they too will want to glorify the Father.
This is the wonderful and glorious purpose of God's elect or Christians, now and in the eons to come.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:18.
"Let your light so shine before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" MATTHEW 5:16.
As God's elect, Christians will continue the preaching of the gospel and teaching the nations in the eons to come. Christians will also be a light to those in the lake of fire, so they can see their good works, and they too will want to glorify the Father.
This is the wonderful and glorious purpose of God's elect or Christians, now and in the eons to come.
I respect your itemizations rj, you're a lot of help in sorting things out. But I thought those who didn't receive Christ were asleep until the eons are over. To whom then are we preaching in the eons?
I'm sorry guys, but as of late I have seen a few posts which tell me that the only thing being a Christian does is get you through the first eons. Then everything becomes nice again. Is that it then? Is Christianity nothing more that the invite to a eons long party. Not being a Christian simply means you sleep through the party and wake up at the end where everything is okay?
Hi VineBranch;
On the surface this concept seems to promote that we just loll about and do nothing. However, knowing that we do not earn our position does not give us the right to not love others or not do things for them to help and encourage them. To do this so that we rate others more than ourselves is what Paul said in Phil 2;3
Christ gave us the prime example of this by taking on the form of a servant. To me this seems to indicate that we are not to abuse our position, take it for granted, or assume that we are just going to be playing harps and doing what we want.
To be in the position of rated above angels we have to learn the right way to do stuff. We have one Father who is teaching us to do NOTHING in rivalry or vain-glory.
Those who did not receive Christ to this point are not aware of the program. Does not make them useless or of no value, just puts them like Paul when he was known as Saul.
1 Tim 1;12-16 " And I give thanks to Him who enabled me- Christ Jesus our Lord- that He did reckon me stedfast, having PUT ON me to the ministration,
who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting, [ sound like some ministers and colleagues I know ]
and I found kindness because, BEING IGNORANT I DID IT IN UNBELIEF,
and exceedingly did the grace of our Lord abound with faith and love THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS:
stedfast is the word and worthy of all acceptance that Christ Jesus came in to save sinners- of whom I am the first;
but because of this I found kindness, that in me Christ Jesus might show forth all patience for a pattern of those about to believe on Him to life age-during."
Did Paul sit back and do nothing?
1 Cor 15;10 " By the grace of God I am what I amand His grace that is towards me did not come in vain, but I did labor more abundantly than they all,
YET NOT I , BUT THE GRACE OF GOD that is within me."
Seems to be a bit more than an invite. Rather seems a position of responsibility with the right system of values.
Quote from: VineBranch on September 06, 2013, 02:11:49 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:18.
"Let your light so shine before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" MATTHEW 5:16.
As God's elect, Christians will continue the preaching of the gospel and teaching the nations in the eons to come. Christians will also be a light to those in the lake of fire, so they can see their good works, and they too will want to glorify the Father.
This is the wonderful and glorious purpose of God's elect or Christians, now and in the eons to come.
I respect your itemizations rj, you're a lot of help in sorting things out. But I thought those who didn't receive Christ were asleep until the eons are over. To whom then are we preaching in the eons?
Hi VineBranch. Thanks for listening to my comments. You're question is interesting and thought provoking, and your question deserves a Biblical answer.
The fact is, those who don't receive Christ will be physically alive but still spiritually dead in the eons to come. Remember before we believed in Christ we were still dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1-5).
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin. That's why Revelation 20:12-15 describes those standing before God as dead. The lake of fire of course is for chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying for those in the lake of fire. After this chastening and cleansing, they can be vivified or made alive spiritually.
I hoped this addressed your question. Blessings.
Quote from: Ross on September 06, 2013, 03:55:24 AM
Seems to be a bit more than an invite. Rather seems a position of responsibility with the right system of values.
Thanks Ross. I meant after we die however. Or does the responsibility go on? If Christ is there in person would He not be the best example and wouldn't I just be getting in the way if He is still ministering to them?
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 03:59:39 AM
Hi VineBranch. Thanks for listening to my comments. You're question is interesting and thought provoking, and your question deserves a Biblical answer.
The fact is, those who don't receive Christ will be physically alive but still spiritually dead in the eons to come. Remember before we believed in Christ we were still dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1-5).
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin. That's why Revelation 20:12-15 describes those standing before God as dead. The lake of fire of course is for chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying for those in the lake of fire. After this chastening and cleansing, they can be vivified or made alive spiritually.
I hoped this addressed your question. Blessings.
Hey RJ:
Your answer intrigues me. I don't think I grasp it all but I see the method. I am a little confused however about the physical vs. spiritual conditions after death.
If the unbelievers are physically alive and spiritually dead standing before the throne of God wouldn't the fact that they were there give them a clue and wouldn't any sane person repent instantly if they saw God face to face on a throne?
I don't get the lake of fire. If the lake of fire is for "chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying", and the people in the lake of fire a physically alive, are they being chastened, cleansed, purged and purified physically? I ask this because I can't see how if they are dead spiritually they can be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified spiritually: there is nothing there to work with. If their spirits are to be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified, wouldn't their spirits have to be made alive first? If so, they wouldn't be dead ... right?
Secondly, if they are alive physically, wouldn't the lake of fire kill them? I'm guessing it's wickedly hot.
Quote from: VineBranch on September 06, 2013, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 03:59:39 AM
Hi VineBranch. Thanks for listening to my comments. You're question is interesting and thought provoking, and your question deserves a Biblical answer.
The fact is, those who don't receive Christ will be physically alive but still spiritually dead in the eons to come. Remember before we believed in Christ we were still dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1-5).
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin. That's why Revelation 20:12-15 describes those standing before God as dead. The lake of fire of course is for chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying for those in the lake of fire. After this chastening and cleansing, they can be vivified or made alive spiritually.
I hoped this addressed your question. Blessings.
Hey RJ:
Your answer intrigues me. I don't think I grasp it all but I see the method. I am a little confused however about the physical vs. spiritual conditions after death.
If the unbelievers are physically alive and spiritually dead standing before the throne of God wouldn't the fact that they were there give them a clue and wouldn't any sane person repent instantly if they saw God face to face on a throne?
I don't get the lake of fire. If the lake of fire is for "chastening, cleansing, purging and purifying", and the people in the lake of fire a physically alive, are they being chastened, cleansed, purged and purified physically? I ask this because I can't see how if they are dead spiritually they can be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified spiritually: there is nothing there to work with. If their spirits are to be chastened, cleansed, purged and purified, wouldn't their spirits have to be made alive first? If so, they wouldn't be dead ... right?
Secondly, if they are alive physically, wouldn't the lake of fire kill them? I'm guessing it's wickedly hot.
"The wicked and unbelievers in the lake of fire being chastened is the beginning of regeneration or given spiritual life, and being made anew.
Secondly, the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and metaphors. Keeping that in mind, why would you think the fire is a literal or physical place? Look at these scriptures:
"If any man's works shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" 1Corinthians 3:15.
For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" Mark 9:49.
"And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Revelation 14:10.
"For our God is a consuming fire" Hebrews 12:29.
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love" 1John 4:8.
I believe the lake of fire is not a literal or physical place. I believe the lake of fire is a condition of emotional and spiritual torment on the wicked and unbelievers. I bellieve the lake of fire is a metaphor for God's tormenting love on the wicked and unbelievers.
From RJJohnson
"God's tormenting love"
Now there is an interesting phrase :Chinscratch:
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):
Father please forgive me if I am still so naive. I have still, such a huge problem with the Word "Christian" I really do not refer myself as one. This is NOT an attack on you RJ :friendstu: it is just lil Julie sharing her heart yet again.
For so many years, even to this day: all I here is would be followers of our dear Lord Jesus Christ speak of the most heinous of things to the very people that Jesus told us to Love and care for. I have yet to find a more polarized / divided people than the Group called Christians.
I do not believe that ALL who profess to be Christian are called by God to be a beacon of light for all, to shed peace and love on all. So many are CINO (Christian in name only) I have family members who "have" to believe in ET because they have to play it safe. They can live the way they want, condemning who they want, simply because they have called on the name of Jesus. Yes, I love them, even though they condemn me.
Strange how Jesus never condemned anyone. :HeartThrob:
So am I a Christian? I don't think so. I am a child of the most Loving Father and a sister to Jesus Christ.
There is no "Us" and "Them" No division, for we are told to love All as much and as dearly as we love ourselves. Father can certainly put me in any group he so desires, all I am called to do is to Love and give Love 24/7.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 07:20:27 AM
Secondly, the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and metaphors. Keeping that in mind, why would you think the fire is a literal or physical place?
Well, because you said the people were physically alive and spiritually dead. Then you said:
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 07:20:27 AM
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.
You never mentioned metaphor anywhere. In fact, when you asked, "How can physically dead people stand? ", you pretty much wiped out any notion of things being taken metaphorically: you insisted only physically alive people can stand; therefore stand can't be metaphorical. If something as innocuous as 'stand' can't be a metaphor, I don't see how anything could be.
Quote from: VineBranch on September 06, 2013, 07:30:26 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 07:20:27 AM
Secondly, the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and metaphors. Keeping that in mind, why would you think the fire is a literal or physical place?
Well, because you said the people were physically alive and spiritually dead. Then you said:
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 07:20:27 AM
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.
You never mentioned metaphor anywhere. In fact, when you asked, "How can physically dead people stand? ", you pretty much wiped out any notion of things being taken metaphorically: you insisted only physically alive people can stand; therefore stand can't be metaphorical. If something as innocuous as 'stand' can't be a metaphor, I don't see how anything could be.
The lake of fire must be taken as symbolic and as a metaphor, because if the fire was literal, it would completely burn up physical bodies.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
The lake of fire must be taken as symbolic and as a metaphor, because if the fire was literal, it would completely burn up physical bodies.
So, are you saying they are physically thrown into a symbolic and metaphorical lake of fire? Now I'm more confused then normal.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling047.htm
Quote from: VineBranch on September 06, 2013, 10:14:28 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
The lake of fire must be taken as symbolic and as a metaphor, because if the fire was literal, it would completely burn up physical bodies.
So, are you saying they are physically thrown into a symbolic and metaphorical lake of fire? Now I'm more confused then normal.
The book of Revelation was written in symbolic and figurative langue.
As long as we look at that langue as literal it will confuse us:
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" Revelation 20:15. No one is literally being cast into a literal lake of fire because their names were not written in a literal book of life. The langue is symbolic and figurative.
"And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" Revelation 14:10. Do you believe people are being literally tormented in the presence of a literal Lamb? Of course not. The Lamb of course is figurative, and symbolic for Jesus Chist---" Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" John 1:29.
The book of Revelation also speaks of a wild beast who will rule the earth and a dragon who will give this beast his power(Revelation 13). If we take the wild beast, the dragon, the Lamb, and the lake of fire as literal then of course we will be confused.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 06, 2013, 04:37:46 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):
Father please forgive me if I am still so naive. I have still, such a huge problem with the Word "Christian" I really do not refer myself as one. This is NOT an attack on you RJ :friendstu: it is just lil Julie sharing her heart yet again.
For so many years, even to this day: all I here is would be followers of our dear Lord Jesus Christ speak of the most heinous of things to the very people that Jesus told us to Love and care for. I have yet to find a more polarized / divided people than the Group called Christians.
I do not believe that ALL who profess to be Christian are called by God to be a beacon of light for all, to shed peace and love on all. So many are CINO (Christian in name only) I have family members who "have" to believe in ET because they have to play it safe. They can live the way they want, condemning who they want, simply because they have called on the name of Jesus. Yes, I love them, even though they condemn me.
Strange how Jesus never condemned anyone. :HeartThrob:
So am I a Christian? I don't think so. I am a child of the most Loving Father and a sister to Jesus Christ.
There is no "Us" and "Them" No division, for we are told to love All as much and as dearly as we love ourselves. Father can certainly put me in any group he so desires, all I am called to do is to Love and give Love 24/7.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie I could not agree more. I stopped using the label of "Christian" because I am embarrassed of that label. I don't want to be lumped into a group of mostly hypocrites who believe they can live any way they like when they are not striving to live Christ like. Most practice all of the pagan holy days and say they are doing it for Yahweh. Yahweh clearly says:
Jeremiah 10
10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the Lord,
Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on September 06, 2013, 10:47:22 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 06, 2013, 04:37:46 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
As a Christian, you are chosen by God, but Christians are not elite, because Christians are sinners and undeserving just like every body else. As a Christian, you are the elect of God. As the elect of God, don't you know what your purpose is? Do you think the elect will just be glorifying God and casting stones at the non elect? Of course not. Here is the purpose of Christians(God's elect):
Father please forgive me if I am still so naive. I have still, such a huge problem with the Word "Christian" I really do not refer myself as one. This is NOT an attack on you RJ :friendstu: it is just lil Julie sharing her heart yet again.
For so many years, even to this day: all I here is would be followers of our dear Lord Jesus Christ speak of the most heinous of things to the very people that Jesus told us to Love and care for. I have yet to find a more polarized / divided people than the Group called Christians.
I do not believe that ALL who profess to be Christian are called by God to be a beacon of light for all, to shed peace and love on all. So many are CINO (Christian in name only) I have family members who "have" to believe in ET because they have to play it safe. They can live the way they want, condemning who they want, simply because they have called on the name of Jesus. Yes, I love them, even though they condemn me.
Strange how Jesus never condemned anyone. :HeartThrob:
So am I a Christian? I don't think so. I am a child of the most Loving Father and a sister to Jesus Christ.
There is no "Us" and "Them" No division, for we are told to love All as much and as dearly as we love ourselves. Father can certainly put me in any group he so desires, all I am called to do is to Love and give Love 24/7.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie I could not agree more. I stopped using the label of "Christian" because I am embarrassed of that label. I don't want to be lumped into a group of mostly hypocrites who believe they can live any way they like when they are not striving to live Christ like. Most practice all of the pagan holy days and say they are doing it for Yahweh. Yahweh clearly says:
Jeremiah 10
10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
I prefer to call myself a believer even though I don't think we should allow the hypocrites to hijack the word "Christian," but unfortunately what is commonly called "Christianity" is based on the creeds of the Roman Empire which I no longer believe in. I prefer to call it "churchianity" because it's all about church doctrine and tradition that contradicts the word of God.
"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)
At some point I decided to get out of the church and just get into the word of God because I believe it is sufficient.
Hi VineBranch;
Thanks Ross. I meant after we die however. Or does the responsibility go on? If Christ is there in person would He not be the best example and wouldn't I just be getting in the way if He is still ministering to them?
I actually see that as on going in the resurrection, working WITH our brother Christ. Working in the heavenly kingdom.
Paul says;
Col 1;23 " ... the good news, which you heard, which was preached in all creation that is UNDER the heaven..."
Col 3;1,2 " If then you were raised with Christ seek the things above, where the Christ is seated on the right hand of God, mind you the things above, NOT the things on the earth."
Here then is my confusion.
You said in a former post
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.
So, (your words) "these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected"; also (your words again) "So those in the lake of fire are physically alive..."
Then you just said
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 10:45:17 PM
The book of Revelation was written in symbolic and figurative langue.
As long as we look at that langue as literal it will confuse us:
On the one hand you claim they are physically alive, and on the other hand you say Revelation is a book of symbols and metaphors. It's your presentation which confuses me. How do you know they aren't metaphorically alive? You really can't have both of these statements being true at the same time.
Quote from: Ross on September 07, 2013, 04:46:48 AM
I actually see that as on going in the resurrection, working WITH our brother Christ. Working in the heavenly kingdom.
Paul says;
Ongoing? You mean parts of me are resurrected and other parts aren't?
Quote from: VineBranch on September 07, 2013, 04:59:20 AM
Here then is my confusion.
You said in a former post
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 05, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
Revelation 20:12-15 says the dead are standing before God. How can physically dead people stand? Answer---these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected, but they are still dead in their sins because they have not yet received Christ as you say. So those in the lake of fire are physically alive, but spiritually dead in sin.
So, (your words) "these people standing before God, who are to be cast into the lake of fire have been physically resurrected"; also (your words again) "So those in the lake of fire are physically alive..."
Then you just said
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 06, 2013, 10:45:17 PM
The book of Revelation was written in symbolic and figurative langue.
As long as we look at that langue as literal it will confuse us:
On the one hand you claim they are physically alive, and on the other hand you say Revelation is a book of symbols and metaphors. It's your presentation which confuses me. How do you know they aren't metaphorically alive? You really can't have both of these statements being true at the same time.
Before I continue. Can I ask you a question? I know you are not sure of what Revelation 20:11-15 means or the Book of Revelation in general means. But can you give me your understanding of at least what you think it means? Then maybe we can go from there. Blessings.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on September 07, 2013, 07:11:07 AM
Before I continue. Can I ask you a question? I know you are not sure of what Revelation 20:11-15 means or the Book of Revelation in general means. But can you give me your understanding of at least what you think it means? Then maybe we can go from there. Blessings.
Thank you for your concern. I have no idea what the book of
Revelations means. When I was younger I thought it was a really neat book describing the end of the world and the things which I had come to know as real. Then I talked to some pastors and learned men. They told me it was a mysterious book which should only be attempted by people of great spiritual and intellectual prowess.
Later still I met a man who was an 'expert' on the book of
Revelations. He was filled with fantastical explanations of a dragon and how it was Satan, and how the grand minutiae inherent in the book is worthy of a lifetime of study. He had really colourful pictures and basically kinda talked to himself in front of the audience. I think the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, but that could have been someone else.
Then I talked to someone who told me that
Revelations was meant to read as a warning to the Romans and the leaders of the day. John apparently was writing to his contemporaries. All the revelations and prophecies were already gone. He used Calvinistic language so I think he was a preterist.
When I took a course on the
Bible as literature, no one really talked about the validity. Most of us English majors and minors looked at the language as just the neatest things around.
When I took some courses through the Religious Studies department, the prof (although a Hebrew scholar of some renown) thought the whole thing malarkey.
Personally I like thinking it's a kinda a guide book through the end times. But I really haven't clue, what it is, should be, or wants to be.
what the book of revelations is.........the revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM....to SHOW His servants
what must soon take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, WHO testifies to
everything he saw- that is, THE WORD OF GOD AND THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST......
so whatever man may say it is,his opinon etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is.....and since all scripture
is beneficial...BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO READS THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY,nd Blessed are those who hear it.
and take to heart what is written in it. 2 Peter 1;20 Above all,you must understand no prophecy of scripture
come about by the prophet's own interprettion,for prophecy never had it's origen in the will of man,but men spoke
from God,as they were carried along of the Holy spirit.
Quote from: sheila on September 07, 2013, 05:57:59 PM
so whatever man may say it is,his opinon etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is
But if we start from the assumption it is all symbol and metaphor, then what is it really?
'what is it?" Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17
Quote from: sheila on September 08, 2013, 07:21:15 AM
'what is it?" Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17
So
Revelations is a white rock with a new name and a box with lightning, voices, thunder, an earthquake, and great hail. Thanks, that helps a lot. How could I have been so blind as not to have seen how clear that is.
the word 'manna' means..what is it....... the word sarcasm..means to cut flesh with words...I will not converse with you
anymore. why should I be ripped by your tongue whenIspeak of beautifulspiritual things.
I wasn't being sarcastic! I was using irony as a rhetorical devise to show my incredulity toward your statement. It wasn't a personal shot at you; I was showing that I didn't believe your sentence had answered my question. Why would you take that personally?
Quote from: VineBranch on September 08, 2013, 07:37:45 PM
I wasn't being sarcastic! I was using irony as a rhetorical devise to show my incredulity toward your statement. It wasn't a personal shot at you; I was showing that I didn't believe your sentence had answered my question. Why would you take that personally?
Reads like sarcasm to me :flamebreath:
Well, I know from personal experience (and from scripture) that the tongue is a difficult thing to tame. I also know it's very easy to wound with words, I've done it often. But it's definitely something to strive to control/submit it to the Lord, because it can sure cause dissention and strife.
for the member requesting deletion of their account due to the "spirit of dissention", I'd ask you to hold on a bit if you can
Quote from: sheila on September 08, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
the word 'manna' means..what is it....... the word sarcasm..means to cut flesh with words...I will not converse with you
anymore. why should I be ripped by your tongue whenIspeak of beautifulspiritual things.
Amen Sheila. (I so very much love and appreciate your posts and the Truth you speak!!)
VB ask Daddy to show you these things. His Spirit wrote them and His same Spirit reveals them. The carnal mind is enmity toward them and cannot grasp them.
How very amusing that if someone doesn't agree with us - THEY have a spiritual problem.
How very amusing that if someone offends us - THEY have a problem because "Love takes no offense"
My how upset we get. Some here refuse to acknowledge I've even posted when I ask them a question directly in a post, other refuse to talk to some other members for some imagined offense.
Wow! We are all so different from non-christians that get offended or feel slighted because of misunderstandings.
We can't get along with our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth so we ignore them and/or tell us they aren't REALLY a child of God. Or they can't possibly know God like we do because (Gasp!) they disagree with us.
Well, I'll wait to see if this post gets left up. It may be seen as causing dissension but I'm just trying to point out how God's children (all of us) are being childish.
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 08, 2013, 08:30:50 PM
Quote from: VineBranch on September 08, 2013, 07:37:45 PM
I wasn't being sarcastic! I was using irony as a rhetorical devise to show my incredulity toward your statement. It wasn't a personal shot at you; I was showing that I didn't believe your sentence had answered my question. Why would you take that personally?
Reads like sarcasm to me :flamebreath:
Then you just ain't readin it rite.
Quote from: lomarah on September 08, 2013, 09:45:37 PM
Amen Sheila. (I so very much love and appreciate your posts and the Truth you speak!!)
That everyone who says things differently is inherently wrong?
Quote from: lomarah on September 08, 2013, 09:45:37 PM
VB ask Daddy to show you these things. His Spirit wrote them and His same Spirit reveals them. The carnal mind is enmity toward them and cannot grasp them.
So, I'm not allowed to be ironic, because someone might think it's sarcasm, but you are allowed to be condescending because she is your friend? Are those who agree with her more spiritual then? Again, I have no personal stake in the answer: God is bigger then any of us. And to whomever will blast me for what I say and call me names: I forgive you.
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2013, 09:07:23 PM
Well, I know from personal experience (and from scripture) that the tongue is a difficult thing to tame. I also know it's very easy to wound with words, I've done it often. But it's definitely something to strive to control/submit it to the Lord, because it can sure cause dissention and strife.
Agreed. Does this include the phrases: "I will not converse with you
anymore. why should I be ripped by your tongue whenIspeak of beautifulspiritual things."?
VB maybe you could explain the irony in your post for us slower types.
IMO, VB is asking, if you say certain verses of scripture are symbolic/metaphorical what makes you so certain that your interpretation is the correct one? Especially the Book of Revelation which has over 20 valid backed by scripture and word study different interpretations of the SAME verses.? All is opinion. Why take offense when someone questions your opinion and denigrate them and/or snub them.
If God's Word is sufficient for all we need to know(and it is) if there are parts we don't understand, then we don't need to understand it. God wants us to act on what we do understand... and that's plenty.
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 08, 2013, 10:49:39 PM
VB maybe you could explain the irony in your post for us slower types.
Rj asked me what I thought of the book of
Revelations. I told him that throughout my life I have had different people tell me what it is, what it is about etc. After a list of the different times I have asked and received different answers about what it really is I finally said I liked the idea that it was a guide book for the end times, but that ultimately I didn't know what it was, or should be or wants to be.
Although I was waiting for RJ to answer, Shelia jumped in and said that: "the revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM....to SHOW His servants what must soon take place." I saw that as kinda what I said: a guide book for end times. (Maybe I wouldn't have used 'soon' seeing as how the book is about two thousand years old, but soon may be relative.) So, not symbol at all, but it is what it literally says. She then states: "so whatever man may say it is,his opinion etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is." Pretty much a given in my world.
I therefore asked (because my post was actually a post to RJ who asked the question, and he said it's all symbol and metaphor): "But if we start from the assumption it is all symbol and metaphor, then what is it really?" This was a way of asking how can we show it isn't a metaphor or a symbol to those who start with that assumption. The question is, what is the book of
Revelations? Rj says it's metaphor and symbol, Sheila says it's literal.
Her answer: "'what is it?" Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17." I was confused because those were metaphors and definitely symbols. It clearly says the manna is hidden, so how could we know what it is if we can't see it? So, I looked up the scriptural references. The first one says: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." (Rev 11:19 ) The second one says: " He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Rev 2:17)
Does any of this answer my question to her? Not in my opinion. Does any of this gain-say what RJ says? No. So, by telling me it's really the revelation of end times and it is exactly what it says it is regardless of what man says, and then using scriptural references which are overtly symbolic and metaphorical, she defeats her own position. What, for example, is the white rock all about? I felt justified in using irony because there appeared to be no thought given to the answer, just some throw away scriptures which defeated what she said. By saying that her answer cleared up the confusion, I was saying that her answers merely create more confusion: that is the classic definition of irony.
I know that these boards are full of people who simply throw away posts to things they don't read, but I was looking forward to having an answer to a serious question answered seriously and with some thought attached. RJ seemed to be heading there. This answer ... well. I thought at least we read our own postings to see if they made sense.
Ded2daworld's explanation is spot on.
Hi VineBranch;
Not us in parts. referring to some will be in the first resurrection- so parts is part of mankind, which makes the plan seem to be carried out in stages of development; hence firstfruits, then the rest in the next phase so that ALL will learn the right way of life.
Quote from: Ross on September 09, 2013, 04:15:05 PM
Hi VineBranch;
Not us in parts. referring to some will be in the first resurrection- so parts is part of mankind, which makes the plan seem to be carried out in stages of development; hence firstfruits, then the rest in the next phase so that ALL will learn the right way of life.
Ah, got it mankind is divided into parts. Sorry to have been so dim. I am still woefully ignorant of the second resurrection and what it means. Thanks.
When scripture talks about the sea giving up its dead and every grave being empty are those then just believers who are being resurrected and is that the first one? The unbelievers stay in their graves until later? Or is that the people born after the first resurrection?
Quote from: VineBranch on September 09, 2013, 06:47:19 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 08, 2013, 10:49:39 PM
VB maybe you could explain the irony in your post for us slower types.
Rj asked me what I thought of the book of Revelations. I told him that throughout my life I have had different people tell me what it is, what it is about etc. After a list of the different times I have asked and received different answers about what it really is I finally said I liked the idea that it was a guide book for the end times, but that ultimately I didn't know what it was, or should be or wants to be.
Although I was waiting for RJ to answer, Shelia jumped in and said that: "the revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM....to SHOW His servants what must soon take place." I saw that as kinda what I said: a guide book for end times. (Maybe I wouldn't have used 'soon' seeing as how the book is about two thousand years old, but soon may be relative.) So, not symbol at all, but it is what it literally says. She then states: "so whatever man may say it is,his opinion etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is." Pretty much a given in my world.
I therefore asked (because my post was actually a post to RJ who asked the question, and he said it's all symbol and metaphor): "But if we start from the assumption it is all symbol and metaphor, then what is it really?" This was a way of asking how can we show it isn't a metaphor or a symbol to those who start with that assumption. The question is, what is the book of Revelations? Rj says it's metaphor and symbol, Sheila says it's literal.
Her answer: "'what is it?" Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17." I was confused because those were metaphors and definitely symbols. It clearly says the manna is hidden, so how could we know what it is if we can't see it? So, I looked up the scriptural references. The first one says: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." (Rev 11:19 ) The second one says: " He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Rev 2:17)
Does any of this answer my question to her? Not in my opinion. Does any of this gain-say what RJ says? No. So, by telling me it's really the revelation of end times and it is exactly what it says it is regardless of what man says, and then using scriptural references which are overtly symbolic and metaphorical, she defeats her own position. What, for example, is the white rock all about? I felt justified in using irony because there appeared to be no thought given to the answer, just some throw away scriptures which defeated what she said. By saying that her answer cleared up the confusion, I was saying that her answers merely create more confusion: that is the classic definition of irony.
I know that these boards are full of people who simply throw away posts to things they don't read, but I was looking forward to having an answer to a serious question answered seriously and with some thought attached. RJ seemed to be heading there. This answer ... well. I thought at least we read our own postings to see if they made sense.
Ded2daworld's explanation is spot on.
Of all the books in the Bible that cannot be pigeon holed, IMO Revelations is IT :o). It includes historical prophecy, literal exhortations to prototypical churches that apply in every generation. it includes symblolic metaphors- pictures of the true living church of Jesus(the ecclesia) that are both for the NOW in every generation and also for the final "filling up" and "completion" of the body of Christ in this age- with glimpses into the next age or two.
It is written in the language of parables and prophecy- the same language used by Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah- etc.
When Zechariah sees a Lampstand with two olive trees upon it he is seeing Israel as he was meant to be, the light of the world before Messiah comes.
When Ezekiel sees dry bones and must prophesy to the wind in order to raise them, he seeing, at least on one level- the means by which every great restoration of God begins- a fresh release of the "sword of the spirit, living and active- the word of God".
These prophetic books of the OT mixed metaphorical pictures of God and His people with social commentary, exhortations to righteousness, specific prophecies of impending historical events and visions from behind the veil of hidden things that were occuring in secret. On top of all that were scattered pieces of the puzzles of what is hidden and yet "always being revealed to seekers" in our own generation.
The revelation John received contains all of the above and more. It is not a book of doctrine and eschatological timelines, altho it contains some clues to such things- they are not the core purpose of the book IMO.
In every generation since the book was written, "God-breathed" through John- it speaks to the reader IN THAT GENERATION things that "are and things that will be" from the one who "was and is and is to come".
The purpose of it, in my opinion, is taht as saints read it, like a glass through which hidden things are brought to light, and share what they see- the CORPORATE VOICE begins to speak forth what "THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES".
"Come let every one who thirsts DRINK FREELY of the water of life......the Spirit and the Bride say COME".e
I believe the revelation is an INVITATION to the inner mysteries (wheels within wheels :o) of the one who, according to His kind intention which HE purposed in Himself, is gathering all things together into one in Christ(EPh 1). The one who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will is giving glimpses to each of us who digs there to share with one another, and from which we may reap the COMMON VISION that Jesus, the "head over all things to His ecclesia, the fulness of Him who fills all in all"- is giving to those who are seeking to come into the "unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God"(Eph 4).
Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such. VB what I meant was, you are asking many questions and I used to do the same, but I realized the only way to get the truth is to ask Father for it and have His Spirit reveal it to you. There are many opinions on what is written in the bible but the only one I care to learn it from is Him. I did the bible university thing, studied til the cows came home and came out more confused than ever. It wasn't until I started learning from Him again, and from those taught directly by Him, that I began to see the truth rather than confusion. (Certainly there is a place for study and I am not saying not to study, which I have been accused of before. Only that we need to ask our Father to reveal the truth in anything to us.)
I "amen"ed Sheila's post because she certainly is speaking of beautiful spiritual things and seemed to be being mocked.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2013, 06:17:18 PM
Of all the books in the Bible that cannot be pigeon holed, IMO Revelations is IT :o). It includes historical prophecy, literal exhortations to prototypical churches that apply in every generation. it includes symblolic metaphors- pictures of the true living church of Jesus(the ecclesia) that are both for the NOW in every generation and also for the final "filling up" and "completion" of the body of Christ in this age- with glimpses into the next age or two.
It is written in the language of parables and prophecy- the same language used by Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah- etc.
When Zechariah sees a Lampstand with two olive trees upon it he is seeing Israel as he was meant to be, the light of the world before Messiah comes.
When Ezekiel sees dry bones and must prophesy to the wind in order to raise them, he seeing, at least on one level- the means by which every great restoration of God begins- a fresh release of the "sword of the spirit, living and active- the word of God".
These prophetic books of the OT mixed metaphorical pictures of God and His people with social commentary, exhortations to righteousness, specific prophecies of impending historical events and visions from behind the veil of hidden things that were occuring in secret. On top of all that were scattered pieces of the puzzles of what is hidden and yet "always being revealed to seekers" in our own generation.
The revelation John received contains all of the above and more. It is not a book of doctrine and eschatological timelines, altho it contains some clues to such things- they are not the core purpose of the book IMO.
In every generation since the book was written, "God-breathed" through John- it speaks to the reader IN THAT GENERATION things that "are and things that will be" from the one who "was and is and is to come".
The purpose of it, in my opinion, is taht as saints read it, like a glass through which hidden things are brought to light, and share what they see- the CORPORATE VOICE begins to speak forth what "THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES".
"Come let every one who thirsts DRINK FREELY of the water of life......the Spirit and the Bride say COME".e
I believe the revelation is an INVITATION to the inner mysteries (wheels within wheels :o) of the one who, according to His kind intention which HE purposed in Himself, is gathering all things together into one in Christ(EPh 1). The one who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will is giving glimpses to each of us who digs there to share with one another, and from which we may reap the COMMON VISION that Jesus, the "head over all things to His ecclesia, the fulness of Him who fills all in all"- is giving to those who are seeking to come into the "unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God"(Eph 4).
I was about to introduce myself, but read a couple of posts first and was a bit sidetracked by your post. eaglesay: What a noteworthy POV of Revelation. I've noted much of it (pen, ink, notebook) and will come back tomorrow to gather some more notes from your interesting POV of Revelation. Thank you!
actually,Iposted Rev 1;1to show what the scriptures said the book of Revelations said it was.due to VB's comment about
some said this,some said that. Andthesymbolgy beingsomewhat confusing..with many interpretations. The comment..
what is it.....I was going with that....the manna...hidden manna=hidden word of Christ/ testimony/prophecy.
Jesus taught in parables..rich in symbology. the hidden manna was kept in the ark[Christ]temple/body]and just as
David ate the bread of the presence..fromthe HighPreist..sotooJesus Christ will feed hidden manna to His.hidden in
symbols.[thosehiddeninChrist]
The Revelation/unveiling of His testimony/prophecy........what I close no-one canopen,what Iopen no-onecanclose
is also shown in the seven seals onthe scrollin Rev 5.the sevenseals...upon His word...is revealed inthe 7 letters
to the elect..asto what needs totake place forHim toopen to youthe door...He will give these things to those who overcome
the problems/snares,listedin the 7 letters.... after thisIlooked and there before me stood adoor standing open in heaven
It is aguide as VB surmised...Iwas attempting to show from the scriptures this very thing.
His rewardsof right to eat from TOL,noharmfrom secounddeath,crownoflife,hiddenmanna,white stone,new name
authority overthenations,morningstar,dressedinwhite,nameinbookoflife,kept through the hourof trial, etc...allthesethings
representbeingfound spotless and blameless at His coming..oF the first resurrection......or Highcalling..come up here
He refines,rebukes,guides and Blesses inthis revelation and testimony
Allofthese symbols/tokensgiven...havetheir'meanings'inthe scriptures...for ex...right to eat from TOL........in Genesis
we see an angelwithaflaming sword who guards the way ofthe TOL.....Jesus also states....He willcome andfight against you
with the sword of His mouth..lest ye repent..in Rev 2;16...this is showing..His authority to open or close the way. Also
He acknowledges you before His angels...so you are not barred to eat from the Tol
Quote from: lomarah on September 09, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such.
Your post wasn't condescending.
We have some sort of attitude at work on the forum right now with an individual or two, that's showing itself publically and causing others to not want to post. It's expected that we all speak to each other with respect (without constantly flaming/baiting [against forum guidelines]). This will be addressed further by PM later.
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2013, 08:28:07 PM
Quote from: lomarah on September 09, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such.
Your post wasn't condescending.
We have some sort of attitude at work on the forum right now with an individual or two, that's showing itself publically and causing others to not want to post. It's expected that we all speak to each other with respect (without constantly flaming/baiting [against forum guidelines]). This will be addressed further by PM later.
LIKE
Quote from: lomarah on September 09, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
... the only way to get the truth is to ask Father for it and have His Spirit reveal it to you. There are many opinions on what is written in the bible but the only one I care to learn it from is Him. I did the bible university thing, studied til the cows came home and came out more confused than ever. It wasn't until I started learning from Him again, and from those taught directly by Him, that I began to see the truth rather than confusion. (Certainly there is a place for study and I am not saying not to study, which I have been accused of before. Only that we need to ask our Father to reveal the truth in anything to us.)
Lomarah, you have a beautiful testimony in this. :HeartThrob: Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:
Children of Father why all of the bickering :sigh:
Have most of you forgotten LOVE :HeartThrob:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. ... 1Cr 13:4-8
No one can say anything to offend or anger anyone here unless the one chooses to be offended or angered.
This is no joke, comments like sarcasm and Lomarah feeling she had to apologize for being "condescending" should never be an issue!
WHY!!!! because we are brothers and sisters in Christ and we should NEVER be so quick to JUDGE one another with any intent other than LOVE. Words are not PERSONAL, and dare I say is the intent that they appear to carry unless one DECIDES to make them so.
Don't you think a quick question asking for an explanation is most useful, if the "understood" meaning is not of Love?
I think a Group Hug is very much in order. :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu:
I love you all dear brothers and sisters :HeartThrob:
Julie
"Peace, be still."
"Be still and know that I am God."
Quote from: lomarah on September 09, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such. VB what I meant was, you are asking many questions and I used to do the same, but I realized the only way to get the truth is to ask Father for it and have His Spirit reveal it to you. There are many opinions on what is written in the bible but the only one I care to learn it from is Him. I did the bible university thing, studied til the cows came home and came out more confused than ever. It wasn't until I started learning from Him again, and from those taught directly by Him, that I began to see the truth rather than confusion. (Certainly there is a place for study and I am not saying not to study, which I have been accused of before. Only that we need to ask our Father to reveal the truth in anything to us.)
I "amen"ed Sheila's post because she certainly is speaking of beautiful spiritual things and seemed to be being mocked.
Okay, maybe I read it incorrectly. Here's what I read: "VB ask Daddy to show you these things. His Spirit wrote them and His same Spirit reveals them. The carnal mind is enmity toward them and cannot grasp them. "
so ..."VB ask Daddy to show you these things." Because obviously I don't know them, or else why would you say that. (That seems a bit judgemental, but that's just me.)
and ..." The carnal mind is enmity toward them and cannot grasp them." So, because I don't know those things which God could show me, I must still in my carnal mind. (Again, a bit judgemental to set yourself up as knowing where someone is spiritually.)
Did I get it wrong?
I think maybe, if you are of a mind, we could remember that this turned ugly when Sheila accused me of being sarcastic, and all of you jumped on the band wagon. May I also remind you of an incident last spring when you defended a fellow named Tom. He actually viciously attacked me and called me a troll, after I questioned him on something. Jabcat banned him for his offensiveness. Even after Jab did that you still protected him. I say one word against Sheila and I am in need of sensitivity training from on high. What are we twelve? Is this still a popularity contest?
Quote from: VineBranch on September 10, 2013, 12:24:22 AM
I think maybe, if you are of a mind, we could remember that this turned ugly when Sheila accused me of being sarcastic, and all of you jumped on the band wagon. May I also remind you of an incident last spring when you defended a fellow named Tom. He actually viciously attacked me and called me a troll, after I questioned him on something. Jabcat banned him for his offensiveness. Even after Jab did that you still protected him. I say one word against Sheila and I am in need of sensitivity training from on high. What are we twelve? Is this still a popularity contest?
VB, I am coming to your defense. We are not perfect, nor we read minds or hearts. I was shocked when I read of all the bickering. There is no need for it, and all involved should feel the need to openly apologize for not showing the Love so freely given them.
We CANNOT have it both ways. We must never forsake love for ego, which is sadly what happened. Feelings got hurt because those holding them wanted them hurt.
There is fault all way round and I am no more perfect than anyone else, so I will start by saying:
"If I have inadvertently offended anyone here with anything I said or implied, please accept my heartfelt apology. It was neither my intention or goal."
If we, with hearts and souls opened by Spirit for and because of Love cannot show the same for each other, perhaps it is time for a break and some quiet time knowing Father.
Much Love, Julie :HeartThrob:
Yeah VB, that's not how I meant it at all. It must have looked that way because of my amen to Sheila's post but I was going to suggest you ask Daddy about your questions long before then, I just didn't get a chance. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, what I'm saying is the only one who does know for sure is our Father. And I was thanking Sheila for her posts because I know how it can feel when someone comes down on the truths you have learned... it makes you not want to share at all. I have really benefited from her sharing and do not want her stopping!
Anyhow I think I've explained myself well enough, I meant no offense to anyone, believe me or not.
And if by Tom you mean Marc I also meant no offense to you by wanting to keep him around but I love the guy like a brother and was hoping we could work things out peacefully while not having to ban anyone. It apparently could not be so, jab pm'ed me some details I was unaware of and he is no longer here. (Marc if you're reading this I hope you're well!)
Anyhow, blessings and peace to you all. :HeartThrob:
This is beginning to sound off topic :flamebreath:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on September 10, 2013, 03:06:47 AM
This is beginning to sound off topic :flamebreath:
Beginning to?? LOL :laugh: Oh, thanks for that.
Open letter to Shiela
Sorry Sheila. I could have backed down, instead I got my back up. It wasn't very loving, and I didn't exhibit any grace. I offer no excuses. I'll submit to being banned if you choose. Before I am banned however, I beg your forgiveness.
I'm sorry,tooVB. Yet,Iknow this,whenFather andJesus complete that which they have
begun in you...you will be such an awesome brother! He doesn' tcount our sins against us
VB.....but delivers us from them. As painful and as upsetting as it is for all of us,welearn
from allthese things.
we all have freedom in Him to make mistakes and learn from them. WhetherI was wrong
to say what I did to you,I do not know at this point. Ijust know something in me said
'enough"! Godknows,andI am sure He will uncover anything hidden in me as to my motivation
for what it was,whether it was a failing in my love for you,pure stubborness that made me
dig in my heels onthe matter..or out of genuine love for what I perceived as
spiritually abusive.
Regardless,Iknow that you as well as me,will bewith Him in the eternal Kingdom of His
perfect love. And we shall be reconciled. there is always a future for the manof peace.
and He shall give it to us all.