Demonic Possession/Exorcisms

[jbertonbounds]

Is that not proof that the Lord uses evil for his purpose in his divine plan for the universe?  Isaiah 45.7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."  God created Satan evil.  John 8.44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning...  Satan is not a good angel gone bad.  God created him evil from the start.  Satan has a purpose in God's plan.  It is God's purpose, not Satan's.

[musicman]

what I wonder about sometimes is...  lets take someone who have lived a life free from violence, were brought up in a loving family around loving friends, far from hate, murder, and other evils.  and this person passed away peacefully and lived a beautiful life around loving and peaceful caring people.  and take the person who lived a life in a violent family, who murdered and hated and did so many evil things and spent a life suffering and never had a loving family or friends. 

So if GODS plan was to create evil ,"or satan"  for a purpose, was it just those unlucky people who got that end of the stick and we are the lucky ones?  or will we have to experience that "other side" or "satan"  some time in our life, or after life so we have the "full experience"  scary to think of.    it some how just doesn't seem fair does it? but I don't wish that on myself or anyone here to have to go through that eveil experience to have a full balanced experience of GOD.
:dontknow:

[lomarah]

There is no one on this earth who has had a life free from evil!!! We all have the wheat AND the tares. Everyone has the tares.  :2c:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   I think the whole earth,in the naturaal testifies to the propensity of weeds,constant vigilence

and a battle waged to keep them  at a minimum. do they not 'pop up" overnite?

        they 'suck up' water and nutrients from the more desirable plants...and grow hardy while others

   are spindly...and are generally very poisonous. Some may apper quite beautiful but are deadly

       some coz blisters and rash,some prick....some are used for remedies[ a little hair of the dog/

  serpent lifted on a pole type...foxglove/digitalis..for failing hearts]

[jbertonbounds]

God is a just God.  It takes faith to believe that.  Most of us were raised on ET and taught that God was not a just God.  (ET's say God is just, but their teachings do not say it.)  Remember the scripture that says, "⁴⁷And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. ⁴⁸But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." [Luke 12:47-48, ESV]  This teaches us that, because God knows what each of us is given (because he gave it to us), He will take that into consideration in the judgment.  The punishment will "fit the crime."  In our limited understanding, it sometimes can seem unfair, but God is a just God - believe that and trust Him.  Always remember this: there is no such thing as "luck."  God works all things out for the good of his followers.  There is nothing whatsoever for us to fear.  And yes, it would be scary indeed if luck were in any part of the equation! :eek:

Here is the way I see it: Because we believe, we are going through judgment while we are here on the earth by suffering with the Christ.  God does the impossible and allows us to die the "second death" (death of our self-will) before we die the first death (physical death).  He then also allows us to suffer the judgment (the sufferings with the Christ) before our first (physical) death.  Then when we die our physical death, we have already been judged and suffered, and we are resurrected to eonian life for the millennium and given immortal spiritual bodies.  We will not suffer the "second death" after the Great White Throne Judgment, because we died that death back on earth for the sake of the Christ.
:dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Is that not proof that the Lord uses evil for his purpose in his divine plan for the universe?  Isaiah 45.7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."  God created Satan evil.  John 8.44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning...  Satan is not a good angel gone bad.  God created him evil from the start.  Satan has a purpose in God's plan.  It is God's purpose, not Satan's.

If God made Satan a murderer, then God is evil and good. The fact that Satan was a murderer from the beginning would not be any kind of a rebuke t the Pharisees, after all God made Satan a murderer and God made the Pharisees murderers and no one should woryy because God made them what they are and only He can change them.  Kinda simplistic and fatalistic to me, and a lot resting on from the beginning. Beginning of what? It doesnt necessarily mean he was created evil. Isaiah 45:7 is set in the context of God judging Israel for their backsliding.  "I create chaos and I create peace...... In other words, if you obey you will dwell in the land and have peace....If you rebel I will allow chaos and unrest to come upon you.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Yet, He creates evil. God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil, according to the apostle James, one of the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem......

I believe God uses evil and causes all things to work together for good and causes all things to work according to the council of His will.....but IMO He does no evil.

[jbertonbounds]

I didn't say God DID evil.  What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil."  Let me add that God tempts no one with evil.  Let us not confuse evil with sin.  Many use these terms interchangeably. 

IMO they are not the same thing.  Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division.  Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err.  Sin is evil, but evil is not sin.  To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil.  To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction.  Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.

Who created all things?  God.  Therefore, who created Satan?  God.  Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil?  No.  God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil.  Yet he created him anyway.  Who created humans?  God.  Who gave humans our weakness?  God.  Who put us on the earth?  God.  Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth?  God.  Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans?  God.  Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition?  God.  Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops!  I didn't see that coming." :sigh:?  No.  It was all part of the plan since from before the creation.  Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation.  God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be.  It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.
:banana: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I believe all this stuff is a little blurry, but in my opinion, if God created a murderer, He did evil.

[micah7:9]

I didn't say God DID evil.  What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil."  Let me add that God tempts no one with evil.  Let us not confuse evil with sin.  Many use these terms interchangeably. 

IMO they are not the same thing.  Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division.  Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err.  Sin is evil, but evil is not sin.  To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil.  To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction.  Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.

Who created all things?  God.  Therefore, who created Satan?  God.  Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil?  No.  God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil.  Yet he created him anyway.  Who created humans?  God.  Who gave humans our weakness?  God.  Who put us on the earth?  God.  Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth?  God.  Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans?  God.  Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition?  God.  Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops!  I didn't see that coming." :sigh:?  No.  It was all part of the plan since from before the creation.  Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation.  God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be.  It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.
:banana: :dsunny:

:iagree: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I believe all this stuff is a little blurry, but in my opinion, if God created a murderer, He did evil.

It just seems to me, it just seems to me, that putting all this "stuff always to be a little blurry" as the glass darkly that you speak of so often, keeps the the one fact and truth beyond our admission.

Now if UR is going to say ALL is ALL, then when I read, 16 for in Him is ALL created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, ALL is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before ALL, and ALL has its cohesion in Him.

Then for me it is not through a glass darkly or a little blurry, either it's ALL  and He is before ALL, and ALL has its cohesion in Him. or ALL is not ALL.
So if ALL is ALL then it is not my opinion. :HeartThrob:

Just to add, HE is the Creator of everything that man has lived and died through. Why do we question the Lord God in how He brings His creation to the fullness that we believe and know He will do? Should evil,the adversary, and demons be, then is it not His Wisdom that is higher and more wise than mans attempt at understanding? "I AM THAT WHICH I AM" Ex. 3:14

[eaglesway]

Well, that God will be ALL in ALL is foundational and clear by direct statements, many and uncontestable in context when properly translated.

The same cannot be said about God creating Satan a murderer.

I hav made very careful and well defined staements about the peripheral doctrines that I consider to be purposely murky and paradoxical by the God of mysteries who prefers not to be boxed by men. UR is certainly not one of them :o)

That God created Satan a murderer is an opinion, IMO :o)

That Isaiah 45:7 is a proof text for God creating Satan evil from the beginning is also, (Because of its context and few similar witnesses across the whole of scripture) also contestable, and definitely not foundational.

[musicman]

So are we just lucky we haven't had a life of torture and murder (forgive me if some here have) if we will experience all that god is at some point will that jut be love or also a taste of the worst pain created as well??

[micah7:9]

Well, that God will be ALL in ALL is foundational and clear by direct statements, many and uncontestable in context when properly translated.

The same cannot be said about God creating Satan a murderer.

I hav made very careful and well defined staements about the peripheral doctrines that I consider to be purposely murky and paradoxical by the God of mysteries who prefers not to be boxed by men. UR is certainly not one of them :o)

That God created Satan a murderer is an opinion, IMO :o)

That Isaiah 45:7 is a proof text for God creating Satan evil from the beginning is also, (Because of its context and few similar witnesses across the whole of scripture) also contestable, and definitely not foundational.
[/quote

Is...in or out of your context? Col. 16 for in Him is ALL created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, ALL is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before ALL, and ALL has its cohesion in Him.

Just how within your, "...defined staements about the peripheral doctrines that I consider to be purposely murky and paradoxical by the God of mysteries who prefers not to be boxed by men. UR is certainly not one of them :o)?"

So ALL in UR is ALL and the rest of ALL is "purposely murky and paradoxical by the God..." I'm not trying to cause a problem, but either ALL is ALL or I need a new definition for all.

[micah7:9]

So are we just lucky we haven't had a life of torture and murder (forgive me if some here have) if we will experience all that god is at some point will that jut be love or also a taste of the worst pain created as well??

For me it's called life. I would expect, and I only assume, that when Cain killed Abel, that Adam and Eve felt the first remorse known to man. And as Job said, Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

[eaglesway]

However, again, here the question is what evil is Job speaking of? He is speaking of trial, difficulty, chaos -that which is for the purification of our faith- as Job's faith WAS purified ("My ears had heard but now my eyes hav seen and I abhor myself").....to me this has nothing to do with the kind of evil we speak of in connection to the motives within the activites of Satan and wicked men.

Does God use those things? Of course. Does God do those things, either directly or indirectly? I personally dont think so.

Perhaps there are 3 different kinds of evil

1)Sinful motives, thoughts and acts, "Let no man say when he tempted, I am tempted by God, for God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyman. Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin and sin conceives death".

2)The chaos that is the seed bed for the growth of life and faith, "The earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters....Beloved, be not amazed at the variety and volume of trial that comes upon you. It is for the purification of your faith"

3)The chaos that results when God withdraws the canopy of peace because of the rebellion and disregard of His creatures...."Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day,"Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not in the midst of us?".

IMO to confuse the three as being all the same ignores the context of scripture in the same way not understanding the 3 forms of "judgment" ignores the context of scripture. Some see judgment as only "condemnation" or "damnation". It can mean "objective appraisal", it can mean, "to pass sentence on the guilty"...... it can mean "the wisdom of God". Only the context tells us(along in some cases with proper translation) when "judgment" means one thing or the other in the various places it is used in the English versions of the Bible. I submit that the word "evil" is EXACTLY the same. Otherwise I have to ignore some other verses, and I believe every foundational doctrine will satisfy ALL the scriptures. IMO, if it doesnt, then it is 1) error 2) a "half-truth" playing one side of the coin against the other- the full coin being the "whole counsel of God" or 3) It is a peripheral truth left like a mote in the eye for people with logs in their eyes to stumble over.

I cannot claim, in this particular discussion, to hav the "full coin" and I do not pretend too. I just see some holes in what is being presented as foundational truth so I am pointing them out- purely as opinions from my own perspective- not for the purpose of overturning someone elses position but rather to say.... I think the real deal is a little further in, a little higher up, a little deeper down :o)

[micah7:9]

You use chaos and calamity as though that will change what the Lord God created and made to grow, a tree of good and evil way back in Genesis. Evil: H7451 same evil as Genesis 2:17 and Isa. 45:7. Why is it you think that the Creator has a fault, so to speak, that He cannot use what He created to work out his plan?
If any one is confusing the matter, I, in my opinion think it is you, who cannot fathom a Creator who will use the means that He knew and created would bring about His plan and purpose. Using evil, chaos, calamity, distress, grief, adversity, affliction, bad,  mischief, harm, hurt,  sorrow, trouble, to do what His thoughts and reason was best for His creation.

Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Who got this ball of creation rolling? Who is the A of this alphabet? Who is the Genesis of ALL that is working?
If or should it not be Jehovah, then just who is it? He started this whole thing and I trust He is and will take respondsibilty for ALL that is/was/ and will be.

[eaglesway]

I can fathom it.... I just see it differently than you do, and I am not stating absolutes... I am just questioning one. If I confuse the issue that is fine really. Light comes out of darkness. Order out of chaos. The spirit is hovering over our chaos seeking the image of Christ in us, LET THERE BE LIGHT :o)

[micah7:9]

So are we just lucky we haven't had a life of torture and murder (forgive me if some here have) if we will experience all that god is at some point will that jut be love or also a taste of the worst pain created as well??

Ecc 11:8  But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity.
Darkness: H2822 the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.

[jbertonbounds]

I didn't say God DID evil.  What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil."  Let me add that God tempts no one with evil.  Let us not confuse evil with sin.  Many use these terms interchangeably. 

IMO they are not the same thing.  Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division.  Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err.  Sin is evil, but evil is not sin.  To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil.  To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction.  Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.

Who created all things?  God.  Therefore, who created Satan?  God.  Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil?  No.  God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil.  Yet he created him anyway.  Who created humans?  God.  Who gave humans our weakness?  God.  Who put us on the earth?  God.  Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth?  God.  Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans?  God.  Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition?  God.  Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops!  I didn't see that coming." :sigh:?  No.  It was all part of the plan since from before the creation.  Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation.  God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be.  It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.

I cannot claim, in this particular discussion, to hav the "full coin" and I do not pretend too. I just see some holes in what is being presented as foundational truth so I am pointing them out- purely as opinions from my own perspective- not for the purpose of overturning someone elses position but rather to say.... I think the real deal is a little further in, a little higher up, a little deeper down :o)

Actually, I presented this as MY OPINION, as you can see above.

[jbertonbounds]

God is a just God.  It takes faith to believe that.  Most of us were raised on ET and taught that God was not a just God.  (ET's say God is just, but their teachings do not say it.)  Remember the scripture that says, "⁴⁷And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. ⁴⁸But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." [Luke 12:47-48, ESV]  This teaches us that, because God knows what each of us is given (because he gave it to us), He will take that into consideration in the judgment.  The punishment will "fit the crime."  In our limited understanding, it sometimes can seem unfair, but God is a just God - believe that and trust Him.  Always remember this: there is no such thing as "luck."  God works all things out for the good of his followers.  There is nothing whatsoever for us to fear.  And yes, it would be scary indeed if luck were in any part of the equation! :eek:

Here is the way I see it: Because we believe, we are going through judgment while we are here on the earth by suffering with the Christ.  God does the impossible and allows us to die the "second death" (death of our self-will) before we die the first death (physical death).  He then also allows us to suffer the judgment (the sufferings with the Christ) before our first (physical) death.  Then when we die our physical death, we have already been judged and suffered, and we are resurrected to eonian life for the millennium and given immortal spiritual bodies.  We will not suffer the "second death" after the Great White Throne Judgment, because we died that death back on earth for the sake of the Christ.

AND HERE.

[jbertonbounds]

Is that not proof that the Lord uses evil for his purpose in his divine plan for the universe?  Isaiah 45.7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."  God created Satan evil.  John 8.44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning...  Satan is not a good angel gone bad.  God created him evil from the start.  Satan has a purpose in God's plan.  It is God's purpose, not Satan's.

Whether God planned for Satan to be evil BEFORE he created him, or Satan was evil WHEN he was created, or Satan became evil LATER, does it make any difference?  God in sovereign.  God knows all.  God is in control.  God knew before time began, before he created Satan, just exactly what Satan would be and what Satan would do.  Satan, the earth, humans, and God's plan for the universe were all premeditated by God.  Of course this is just MY OPINION.

[micah7:9]

I accept your opinion as very sound. :dsunny:

I accept your opinion as very sound.  :dsunny:

[sheila]

 a few thoughts on the use of the evil' contrast.......but an 'educational tool "used of the Father.   the nature

of evil is not in any relation the nature of God..it is'in it's nature' not what God is;it's 'godlessness".


    now, that Father implemented this in His education of his children,I accept...and that He has not failed

to educate us of it's nature  and danger...I concur.


    DO NOT EAT FROM THE TREE LEST YE DIE   Exodus 21;28 if aa bull gores a man or a woman to death,

  the bull must be stoned to death and it's meat not eaten. But the owner of the bull willl not be held responsible

   IF however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept

it penned up,and it kills a man or a woman,the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put t death


    Deut 22;8  when you build a new house make a parapet around your roof,so that you may not bring

  the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.


     I offer the above scriptures to show..through the law...how seriously our Father takes the preservation

of life...and how from the start He built in 'parapets and penned in " the evil contrast..to protect life.

   [they shll cause no harm on my Holy mountain]


     another thought for consideration is in regard to the children/offspring of God,is this....it is sown

a natur4aal body and raised up a ssspiritual body...unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth and die

it remains alone,but if it fall to the earth and die..it bears much fruit in heaven..   God sowed His spiritual

seed in a feild[dust/clay vessel/natural body] an enemy come at night and sowed tares also in  the feild

  [good/evil mix/tree] they both grow togather until harvest...the 'tares are removed and burned[evil

seed/mystery of godlessness]...the  'wheat' good seed of God[mystery of godliness are gathered in the barns

of heaven[much fruit]  there is the seperation of good/evil at harvest.


    the wicked man accused God of reaping where He did not sow[saving evil people[feild over-run with tares

  but God knows He sowed  a wheat in that feild] nd becoz the wicked[tares] encompassed the

righteous/wheat..correct judgement did not go forth[Rev 20;9] 2 Sam 22;5 Ps 18;4 40;12 116;3 Jon 2;3


     the bearing much fruit in heaven is also related to 'the just spirits of men made perfect"  the spirit

seed/wheat..in the barns of heaaven.  I myself will finish their training..'all shall be taught of God"

  with the upward call...the spiritual man see's a different perspective and veiw as he looks upon the sown

feilds...a veiw not hindered by tares surrounding him....he is 'perfected' in correct judgement............


    He receives the same veiwpoint of God and Jesus...'surely I spoke of things I did not understand.....

  things too wonderful for me.  For the 'Wonderful Counselor" has finished his training Jdgs 13;18 the strong

man..'whatever you bind[tares] on earth is bound in heaven...whatever you loose[wheat] on earth is loosed

in heaven[free...the sons of the kingdom are free]   Mat 12;29  Or again,how can anyone enter a strong

man's house and carry off his possessions[robber theif/accuses 'you reap where you did not sow] unless

he first binds up[bound in sin] the strong man? Then he can rob his house


    John the Baptist[spirit and power of Elijah] 'After me will come one more stronger then I am,the thongs of

whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie"


       He sends forth His angels to gather the tares..and bind them up in bundles to burn[this REDEEMER WHO

IS STRONG]  then gther  MY wheat into the brns of heaven.


    He comes like a robber and theif to the house of the one who thinks he has[feilds with tares sown] and

what he thinks he has is taken away from him[wickedness/godlessness possesing a man/tares sown]


        P.S. the TOKOGAE is the developement of discernment . As God brought to Adam the creatures

for him to observe[discern characteristics,nature] and then name accordingly[if you can name it..you can

  get dominion over it....for this reason we are all given a new name that no-one knows but the one who

receives it...this way..another spirit can not mislead you..[a seal..so to speak..a garuntee it is from God..

.you answer only to God/Christ.....though those

  of your peers

may know and call you of a different name .thus Jesus asking the spirit it's name..exercizing

authority over it.

    It takes a very fine discernment..to overcome.[now the serpent was the most subtil beast of the feild,

  it is this very subtilness that makes very fine discernment necessary

.it takes the spirit oof God.....'I speak only what I hear.."

   it takes GOD REVEALING IT TO YOU. He has promised nothing hidden will not be revealed.....and you

  that are 'hidden' in Christ,shall be revealed as the sons of God


    we are as but  little children.. while we are down here....mature sons[brn from above] have discernment

that little children do not possess as of yet[the saints were overcome]  Rev 14 Overcomers on Mt Zoin who

sing a song no-one could learn except them[no lie found in their mouths=discernment of truth from deception]


    as of yet,we easily wander from the striat and narrow...a little too faar to the left,a little to far to the right

    and the 'wicked generation' perishes in the wilderness...walking the crooked path of the serpent

  and like a drunken man.. But we are not alne..our Shepherd is with us


   .Isaih 30;20-21  Although the Lrd gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction,YOUR

TEACHERS WILL BE HIDDEN NO MORE;with your own eyes you will see them,   whether you turn to the

right or turn to the left,your ears will hear a voice behind you,saying, 'THIS IS THE WAY;WALK IN IT"

   INDEED,the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God

[onlytruth]

goooood word sheila

[jabcat]

yes, interesting   :thumbsup: