There was a time when I was borderline obsessed with this topic. I've watched many shows and horror movies where people were supposedly possessed by demons, and Catholic priests were called in to perform exorcisms. Many of the shows billed the events as true stories, and I thought these things were the real deal. I don't really believe in that stuff anymore, and I believe many theories about demonic possession come from pagan theology. What is everyone's take on this?
I might tend to believe if someone other than a catholic priest performed the exorcism.
I do believe some of the accounts of demonic possession were epileptic seizures and some were other brain disorders.
I do not believe an evil spirit may enter a person that has the holy spirit of God residing in them. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on July 06, 2013, 12:27:04 AM
I do not believe an evil spirit may enter a person that has the holy spirit of God residing in them. :Peace2:
:thumbsup: Aggravate, but not infiltrate.
I dont expect anyone to take my word for it. But I have seen demons cast out of people who were possessed twice- New Testament level, nothing like the movies.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 06, 2013, 08:26:41 AM
I dont expect anyone to take my word for it. But I have seen demons cast out of people who were possessed twice- New Testament level, nothing like the movies.
You have seen demons cast out of people in person? I'd like to hear more details about that because you have peaked my curiosity. I know the Bible speaks of Jesus driving out demons, but I guess I never really knew if they were literal demons who were possessing them like you see in the movies with the black capes and the Darth Vader masks :icon_jokercolor: or if that was just a metaphor for the uncleanliness that Jesus was casting out of people. I tend to view the latter as truth now.
My belief is that anything which is an enemy to God falls under the category of the devil, and both angels of God and wicked spirits can influence humans, and in some persistent cases of wicked spirits influencing humans it becomes possession.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 06, 2013, 08:26:41 AM
I dont expect anyone to take my word for it. But I have seen demons cast out of people who were possessed twice- New Testament level, nothing like the movies.
Just asking, that' s all.
How was this casting out done? How did you/or someone know the demon had possession?
What kind of a demon was it? :dontknow:
Devil G1228 diabolos a traducer; specifically Satan : - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
G1140 daimonion Neuter of a derivative of G1142; a daemonic being; by extension a deity: - devil, god.
G1142 daimōn a demon or super natural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil.
The word "demon" is not found in the OT or NT. The word "devil" is only used in the NT. The word devil has two meanings and yes one is "demon."
My question, how do we know that the "possession" is either the "traducer/ adversary" or a " a daemonic being-demon"?
And also how can we know that what is called "possession" is not just one of the many diseases-infirmities-sickness that is in the nature of human kind?
Just asking. :dontknow:
Micah, I have the same questions :dontknow:
Well, the manifestations that "devils" (strongs shuwd-malignancy) have are many, as in the scriptures. The madman of the Gadarenes was a good example. As to how you would kno there is a devil involved in a situation...... there is a gift of the spirit called "discernment of spirits"- that is one way. Another is just by the manifestation itself. I have seen spirits(had my eyes opened to see spirits)- I think this is one operation of the gift of discerning of spirits. I once was in a room where a girl who had become demon possessed was being prayed for. The demons in her were speaking to people in the room that she did not kno personally, with knowledge of details of their lives, combined with many insults and "glory to Satan" praises etc. One of the men in the room( a minister in this street ministry in Detroit Mich.) stood up to strike the girl. At this I grabbed him to stop him and the girl got up to leave.
The Lord spoke to me, "Tell her to sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus". So I looked over at her and said, (I was a relatively new beliver at the time but I am good at following instructions), "Sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus" and it was like an invisible hand slapped her down on her back and she stayed there, unable to get up for several hours until some brothers from another inner city ministry that had more experience with deliverance came and picked her up. She became a isciple of Chrsit and I saw her around the fellowship a few times after that.
I have had a few other experiences of supernatural healing and deliverance along the way in my walk with God.
I ask no one to take my word on these things, if they run contrary to your doctrinal beliefs write me off as a madman ;o) I really dont care :o)
LOL "Sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus!" I'm sure there are many here who will not believe you just on account of those words. :laughing7: Cardinal and I were saying just the other night, phewww we are so glad Father is not religious! :LH:
Father has had Cardinal cast out many evil spirits since the beginning of her walk with the Lord. She knew what they were because Father told her, and told her exactly what to say and do, just like Eaglesway. Call her mad too, she won't mind either. She is quite used to it. :declare: :laugh:
Eaglesway thanks for sharing that, especially about the demons whispering in the ears. Confirms some stuff for me. :thumbsup:
My opinion, if I may say this, is that possession was very rampant in the rulers of Christ's time in that most rulers were themselves possessed by the most wicked and evil of spirits, themselves rulers of their own piece of darkness.
I think of the early followers of Jesus, those who loved Jesus Christ. I feel both something akin to shame and also a powerful love. Some they could expect a terrible end would come as a result of their love for the Master, and little ones who must be held in arms as flames licked. To Him who bore more pain than could be imagined is given my full adoration, and to those early pioneers of faith my heart goes out and my gratitude is full :HeartThrob:
I do want to make it clear that I do not see devils around evry corner or think that devils are responsible for all sickness, disease, mental illness, addiction- etc. However i do believe the prince of the power of the air the ruler of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms are very involved in many of these things and occasionally are the root cause or even the whole cause.
I thank God for doctors, science and medicine, but i also thank God that at times He will overrule doctors science and medicine for the benefit of desperate supplicants(woman with the flow of blood, cripple at the pool of Bethesda, for ex.)
When the townspeople came out to see the Madman of the Gadarenes sitting at Jesus feet "sitting at Jesus feet whole and in his right mind", they asked Jesus to leave.
Most people are very uncomfortable with the supernatural because it brings them into a place where they cannot be in control and events do not follow the patterns of there naturl understanding.
I'll tell you, I'm pragmatic...student of both science and faith. I understand disease and well-being. I have seen many things and some just cant be explained by medical science. I have a real hard time wrapping my mind around demons, and demonic possession. With that said, when people of sound spiritual mind report to me, there are things I don't understand, principalities at work...I listen.
Not so long ago, washing hands before surgery was laughed at. If doctors couldn't see it, they didn't believe it. So, I keep an open mind.
Let me ask you all something. Can demons effect a believers life, and if so why are demons allowed to attack and sicken a believer? Is it something the believer does or doesn't do?
Believrs have weapons, armor, spiritual tools providd as sons of God. It is a part of the inheritance. The body of Christ as a whole, is seated in the heavenlies in Christ "far above all principality and power".
"For lack of knowledge the people perish."
Sometimes what we dont kno can hurrt us- but I dont believe a disciple of Jesus in good standing has too much trouble with demons.
"The gates of Sheol shall not prevail against it(the church)"
In the spirit, under the canopy of the love of God, I dont believe demons can function effectively.
A good "fellowship/gathering of the ecclesia" is real protection against demonic interference and oppression....but the grace of God will suffice wherever we are, IMO
Thanks for that answer...sounds reasonable to me.
I suppose that people could (and do) consider evil spirits to represent other things. I believe however, that malevolent spirits of varying degrees of wickedness and strength (to me all fall under the term "the devil"), wander around seeking to find an outlet for their evil...
1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
In my opinion, dangerous spirits with hatred in them are everywhere - but then, of course, so is God and His ministering spirits. Evil spirits can sometimes temporarily pass thoughts into one who, shall we say, is themselves full of hatred, and make the situation worse.
It is not God who is tempting but it is evil that is tempting. It is part of God's Plan that He has allowed the tempting of His children by wicked spirits for His purpose of raising up His children. He has permitted both testing and tempting by evil as part of His Purpose of the aeons and it is not Him. Evil and God are "separated"...
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Regarding temptation...
Luke 4
1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season (kairos => a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time).
I personally believe that Jesus Christ was the perfect Example for man to reflect his own life upon, in that everything He did was a living, open and instantly accessible "Book", as it were, that man could read in order to best sojourn in this world in accordance with the Will of God. God is the Living God and as such each person who is guided by the Holy Spirit literally opens up new areas of spiritual life in the dry and lifeless desert into which he or she must sojourn.
I would say, reading above, that if the Holy Spirit should lead one to beat out a certain path for God which would open up new ground, then it requires a pioneering attitude of great resilience as malevolent spirits will play heavily and then more heavily still on that one.
Here, James appears to almost paraphrase and summarise the Example set by Jesus Himself...
James 4
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.
I do not think it a mere coincidence that prayer and fasting (reverent communing with God and self-denial) are mentioned elsewhere by our Lord concerning the supernormal...
Mark 9
29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
Neither do I think it meaningless but rather telling that Jesus should converse with beings with intelligence - they speak to Him and He speaks back:
Matthew 8
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go.
These particular encounters show that some prowling spirits are desperate to find "rest" from their miserable existence and care not for how they find that rest, even if it means destroying a life...
Luke 11
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
I believe that the strongest temptations come to those who truly want to be pure in heart and mind so that they are closer to God and can make the most of their time here for Him...
Psalms 26
2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart....
2 Examine me (bachan => examine, try, prove), O LORD, and
prove me (nacah => test, try, prove, tempt, assay);
try (tsaraph => smelt, refine, test)
my reins (kilyah => figuratively: seat of emotion) and
my heart (leb => inner man, mind, will, soul, heart, understanding).
Psalms 139
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead (nachah => lead, guide) me in the way (derek => way, road, journey, manner [habit] evermore (owlam => perpetually).
James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations (peirasmos => trials, provings);
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
There are some who become defensive that it might be suggested that for one who has accepted the gift of Love given forth from the Cross by the Saviour Christ, that it is possible to be influenced by evil and form a pattern of sinfulness and have the need to repent. However, Christ has made sure that such a thing cannot be assumed as a whole ekklesia gathering is addressed...
Revelation 3:1-22
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "'I know your works (ergon => acts, things done, products). You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent (metanoeo). If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers (nikao => victorious over all adverseries [i.e. sins etc.]) will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels...
It is easy to think that there exists no unseen enemies around but there appears wicked and malevolent spirits in the Biblical text directly [and I read indirectly]. I look at some people caught on film today who have just committed an atrocity and it is difficult not to see the evil spirit that has taken command of the will in that person. And what of those who commit an act of evil and then are found shaking their head wondering what has just happened? Psychological? Yes, but that does not mean there is not a deeper underlying cause - an evil spirit.
Peace
I have heard of those who believe the devil is the spirit of mans rebellion...sits on the throne of our hearts and calls itself god. Demons those under control of his spirit. All, symbolic and spiritual...no such thing as invisible beings that cause us harm.
I would much rather believe that, as the thought of invisible beings causing us harm brings me anxiety. But, that doesn't mean it's truth.
I think the above thinking is problematic when Thinking about Jesus casting demons into pigs.
I'm still left undecided on the subject. Good thing I dont have to have correct understanding on these things to have a relationship with God.
Dear Shaun,
I really do like that teaching...
Quote
..."the devil is the spirit of mans rebellion...sits on the throne of our hearts and calls itself god. Demons those under control of his spirit. All, symbolic and spiritual..."
Symbolic and spiritual teachings which embody the truth are effective. Thank you for sharing that with me friend.
I like the idea that we must stay humble to be free of the lordship of the devil, and this by always submitting to God's Will which also has the added bonus of removing anxiety. This is a great protection whether the belief is the one I have or the one that you have.
1 Peter 55 ...God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
As for myself, well, I have no choice but to believe what I believe, it is part of my life, it is what God has shown me, and once that kind of thing happens it cannot be taken away, if you will, because it gives me my Lord Jesus Christ in as much abundance as I can take - He has shown Himself to be the only thing ever worth having which nothing else can replace...it is not possible to replace Everything...which I am sure is how everybody else who has found Him feels as well. Yet He can be missed sorely. I hope that makes sense and is not too cryptic
:dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on July 07, 2013, 04:15:44 PM
I suppose that people could (and do) consider evil spirits to represent other things. I believe however, that malevolent spirits of varying degrees of wickedness and strength (to me all fall under the term "the devil"), wander around seeking to find an outlet for their evil...
1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
In my opinion, dangerous spirits with hatred in them are everywhere - but then, of course, so is God and His ministering spirits. Evil spirits can sometimes temporarily pass thoughts into one who, shall we say, is themselves full of hatred, and make the situation worse.
It is not God who is tempting but it is evil that is tempting. It is part of God's Plan that He has allowed the tempting of His children by wicked spirits for His purpose of raising up His children. He has permitted both testing and tempting by evil as part of His Purpose of the aeons and it is not Him. Evil and God are "separated"...
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Regarding temptation...
Luke 4
1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season (kairos => a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time).
I personally believe that Jesus Christ was the perfect Example for man to reflect his own life upon, in that everything He did was a living, open and instantly accessible "Book", as it were, that man could read in order to best sojourn in this world in accordance with the Will of God. God is the Living God and as such each person who is guided by the Holy Spirit literally opens up new areas of spiritual life in the dry and lifeless desert into which he or she must sojourn.
I would say, reading above, that if the Holy Spirit should lead one to beat out a certain path for God which would open up new ground, then it requires a pioneering attitude of great resilience as malevolent spirits will play heavily and then more heavily still on that one.
Here, James appears to almost paraphrase and summarise the Example set by Jesus Himself...
James 4
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.
I do not think it a mere coincidence that prayer and fasting (reverent communing with God and self-denial) are mentioned elsewhere by our Lord concerning the supernormal...
Mark 9
29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
Neither do I think it meaningless but rather telling that Jesus should converse with beings with intelligence - they speak to Him and He speaks back:
Matthew 8
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go.
These particular encounters show that some prowling spirits are desperate to find "rest" from their miserable existence and care not for how they find that rest, even if it means destroying a life...
Luke 11
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
I believe that the strongest temptations come to those who truly want to be pure in heart and mind so that they are closer to God and can make the most of their time here for Him...
Psalms 26
2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart....
2 Examine me (bachan => examine, try, prove), O LORD, and
prove me (nacah => test, try, prove, tempt, assay);
try (tsaraph => smelt, refine, test)
my reins (kilyah => figuratively: seat of emotion) and
my heart (leb => inner man, mind, will, soul, heart, understanding).
Psalms 139
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead (nachah => lead, guide) me in the way (derek => way, road, journey, manner [habit] evermore (owlam => perpetually).
James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations (peirasmos => trials, provings);
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
There are some who become defensive that it might be suggested that for one who has accepted the gift of Love given forth from the Cross by the Saviour Christ, that it is possible to be influenced by evil and form a pattern of sinfulness and have the need to repent. However, Christ has made sure that such a thing cannot be assumed as a whole ekklesia gathering is addressed...
Revelation 3:1-22
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "'I know your works (ergon => acts, things done, products). You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent (metanoeo). If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers (nikao => victorious over all adverseries [i.e. sins etc.]) will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels...
It is easy to think that there exists no unseen enemies around but there appears wicked and malevolent spirits in the Biblical text directly [and I read indirectly]. I look at some people caught on film today who have just committed an atrocity and it is difficult not to see the evil spirit that has taken command of the will in that person. And what of those who commit an act of evil and then are found shaking their head wondering what has just happened? Psychological? Yes, but that does not mean there is not a deeper underlying cause - an evil spirit.
Peace
Good, sound, edifying and IMO correct.
Consider this, has the reign of God come to you? I believe there is much to consider. :HeartThrob:
Mat 12:28 `But if I, by the Spirit of God, do cast out the demons, then come already unto you did the reign of God.
Manifestation of " demonic spirit "is as simple as pushing someones button regarding a long held belief . People will rise up in indignation , get mad, storm out of the room or even worse!
When casting out a " demonic(or something that doesn't line up with Gods desire)spirit , we must have revelation of the source , where did they receive the lie ?
If we don't know , we can't play God and all we can do is love them until it is the right time
God directed to me once to pray for a pastors wife in a wheel chair( even though I didn't want to)I prAyed and God showed me the source. She got up and next couple days shared with everyone!
Then a couple days later we got a call and were told that it wasn't possible, they expelled it to her and she received the curse back again
Needless to say the head pastor told my family we weren't a good fit and asked us to leave.
Explained not expelled.....spellcheck !:)
I have had experience with having spirits casted out of myself! The lady I know has had her eyes opened to seeing these "spirits" I had the spirit of depression and the spirit of infirmity cast out of me. IT was a crazy expericnce, defentely felt like something that was not me was leaving, and even made me say some wierd things like "he let me in here" and I was speaking but it wasn't me speaking. hard to explain. and some of these are familiar spirits past down the ancestral line. she explained it to me as these things arent us they are spirits who need hosts. and these spirits are always looking for hosts, and we open those doors for them to come into our lives through "sin" or unrighteous acts that open these spiritual doorways. I feel like whenever I'm near a night club with people drinking and doing drugs, these spirits are EVERYWHERE!!! Ive had this experience of opening these doorways. I don't necessarily believe that "those who have the holy spirit in them/believers in jesus can't have these spirits enter" because the holy spirit is the spirit of truth, and I find it hard to believe there are many out there living completely embodied by the holy spirit and living in complete truth and righteousness like jesus was. where ever there a lack of truth in our lives, I believe these "spirits" can enter. just my thoughts.
I myself,expierenced a somewhat 'strange' occurrence....shortly before finding out the truth of the
salvation of all men. I was awakened in the middle of the night by an argument going on,it had become
intense enough tht it aroused me out of my sleep. This expierence reminded me of satan and Michael
having a dispute over Moses body.
I had first heard of the salvtion of ll men when I was 17 shortly after I was annointed..and rejected it...
aand there-after I was sent into religious bondage to a very legalisticaally minded group for 10 yrs.
through that expierence I fell off my 'high horse' and was more of the mind set to accept grace...and
realized 'my own righteousness' of works..would not 'save me'
I had 'come out" when the above occurred. also...Jesus had awoken me one morning telling me I had
'dragon breath" beleiving and speaking demonic doctrines of condemnation of men..in opposition
to what His son had accomplished.
so was 'it' a lying religious spirit...'I will choose their delusion' becoz I rejected the truth when I heard
it[salvation of all men]? all I know is He did a work on me..and I was sent to a religious prison house
for ten years[see parable of man who was forgiven much..then beat a man who was in debt to him]
He did a chastising work on me!!! I will not boast of myself[He scourged that out of me/and problably will
continue ] But I will PRAISE HIM!!!!!! and what HE has done and does and will do for all of man.
aand we are so Blessed to have HIM. He IS IN CONTROL!!!!!!
the evil contrst[evil spirits] are used of Him to educate us all.... He uses both positive and negative
to teach His children.
Molly put up a very good writing,a while back..how these spirits overtake the children...yes, the 'saints"
were overcome as written in Daniel..... think not that it can't haappen to you..lest ye fall.
Yeah musicman! Even when you go to a restaurant or any place there are lots of people, if you are sensitive to them you can really feel it. I was set free from alcoholism the other night. It runs on both sides of my family and although I hadn't given into it since I was seventeen (when I was well on my way of becoming a severe alcoholic until God got ahold of me) it still bothered me from time to time, giving me urges to "drink away the pain", most especially during hard times in my life. Well last week after the kids were in bed I finally gave in and had my husband make alcoholic slushies and I got buzzed. I felt fine with it (as in not guilty) and God even spoke to me that night so I knew He wasn't angry with me. I knew it was a slippery slope though and didn't want it to be something that I did often. A couple nights later I had had a particularly hard day and I was texting with Card and told her that I was glad there was no alcohol in the house because I was having heavy urges to drink again. She told me to curse that thing at the root and to ask the fire of the Holy Ghost to burn it up so it would be under the blood of Christ and unable to bother me anymore. I did what she said and immediately felt free and there was an intense warmth (I was feeling the fire of the HG!) and I have never felt so close to Him like I did then! It was awesome!!
I know that people get freaked thinking about having evil spirits in them but when you realize that we've dealt with them our whole lives and consider they are the things we have always called our personality (for example someone is known for having an angry disposition, another is known for having an anxious disposition) it doesn't seem so scary. And Father has shown me that these things are not us as well, so there is another witness to what musicman said. :) He showed me self hatred in myself once... I had always thought it was me. When He showed me it it scared the heck out of me... that thing is a nasty one!!
He came to set the captives free... these are the things He is freeing us from. :HeartThrob:
Sheila :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on July 08, 2013, 06:13:04 PM
I myself,expierenced a somewhat 'strange' occurrence....shortly before finding out the truth of the
salvation of all men. I was awakened in the middle of the night by an argument going on,it had become
intense enough tht it aroused me out of my sleep. This expierence reminded me of satan and Michael
having a dispute over Moses body.
I had first heard of the salvtion of ll men when I was 17 shortly after I was annointed..and rejected it...
aand there-after I was sent into religious bondage to a very legalisticaally minded group for 10 yrs.
through that expierence I fell off my 'high horse' and was more of the mind set to accept grace...and
realized 'my own righteousness' of works..would not 'save me'
I had 'come out" when the above occurred. also...Jesus had awoken me one morning telling me I had
'dragon breath" beleiving and speaking demonic doctrines of condemnation of men..in opposition
to what His son had accomplished.
so was 'it' a lying religious spirit...'I will choose their delusion' becoz I rejected the truth when I heard
it[salvation of all men]? all I know is He did a work on me..and I was sent to a religious prison house
for ten years[see parable of man who was forgiven much..then beat a man who was in debt to him]
He did a chastising work on me!!! I will not boast of myself[He scourged that out of me/and problably will
continue ] But I will PRAISE HIM!!!!!! and what HE has done and does and will do for all of man.
aand we are so Blessed to have HIM. He IS IN CONTROL!!!!!!
the evil contrst[evil spirits] are used of Him to educate us all.... He uses both positive and negative
to teach His children.
Molly put up a very good writing,a while back..how these spirits overtake the children...yes, the 'saints"
were overcome as written in Daniel..... think not that it can't haappen to you..lest ye fall.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Sheila.
I am certain that demonic posession exists.
Hi there all,
This discussion is speaking about a spirit entering a person, didn't Christ say the things that come from OUT of a man makes him unclean not what enters him.
I also believe that the devil is a metaphor for the human ego, with its lusts and wants and must haves and Christ was tempted by His ego not some supernatural devil. That's why Christ is honoured and worshipped because He silenced His ego which as we all know is a very hard thing to do.
As for the Gadarene, he could have had schzophrenia or multiple personality disorder. Even today people are afraid of the mentally ill.
Godbless
Nancy
Quote from: Nancy on July 09, 2013, 12:03:23 PM
Hi there all,
This discussion is speaking about a spirit entering a person, didn't Christ say the things that come from OUT of a man makes him unclean not what enters him.
I also believe that the devil is a metaphor for the human ego, with its lusts and wants and must haves and Christ was tempted by His ego not some supernatural devil. That's why Christ is honoured and worshipped because He silenced His ego which as we all know is a very hard thing to do.
As for the Gadarene, he could have had schzophrenia or multiple personality disorder. Even today people are afraid of the mentally ill.
Godbless
Nancy
I have pondered if Satan is a real person or a metaphor. There are many who believe he is a metaphor. I tend to believe he is a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person). I believe this because there is so much about Satan in the scriptures. It seems that metaphors in the scriptures are usually used more sparingly. However, your point that mental and personality disorders may explain many of the "demon possessions" in the scriptures is an interesting thought. If the terms "Satan," "devil," "demons," and "evil spirits" are metaphorical, then all of it would certainly make more sense to the human logic. But how do we know for sure? And how do we say that those terms are metaphors, and then turn around and say that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are real persons? Maybe my logic is weak here, but all that to say this: the idea of Satan's being a metaphor is a little scary to me and a lot of other Christians. :eek: Of course his being a real person is pretty scary too! :eek:
I'm kinda agnostic on the issue but just want to throw this out there. The law of Moses and Peter are also satan...accuser.
SATAN H7854 śâṭân an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
From H7853 A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.
The word "satan" is not a proper noun, it is the Hebrew word for opponent, adversary, which attacks by accusation.
I believe that the Adversary is a created being, not a person. The adversary is the Devil. There is no devil in the OT. The "terrorists" call the USA "satan."
Devil G1228 diabolos a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
From G1225 diaballō (figuratively) to traduce: - accuse.
From G1223 dia A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through
2Co 11:3 and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ;
Just how I have been given to understand the/my enemy. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
SATAN H7854 śâṭân an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
From H7853 A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.
The word "satan" is not a proper noun, it is the Hebrew word for opponent, adversary, which attacks by accusation.
I believe that the Adversary is a created being, not a person. The adversary is the Devil. There is no devil in the OT. The "terrorists" call the USA "satan."
Devil G1228 diabolos a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
From G1225 diaballō (figuratively) to traduce: - accuse.
From G1223 dia A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through
2Co 11:3 and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ;
Just how I have been given to understand the/my enemy. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Interesting, thanks. :thumbsup:
Jesus was talking clearly about food there when talking about what enters a man, because he also said that food comes out of the man naturally. And he also cast out demons.
Remember.....Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 09, 2013, 05:28:25 PM
I tend to believe he is a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person). I believe this because there is so much about Satan in the scriptures.
"...person [actual spirit being]" :thumbsup:
Just my point. A demon is not "cast out in the draught", so Jesus clearly meant food.
I think demonic posession is real.
I believe and know that the old Dragon, the Serpent, the Devil, the Adversary is very real.
But I personally have found no evidence that the enemy is a " person," as what the definition of a person is. A spirit being yes.
Quote from: Eduard on July 09, 2013, 09:42:03 PM
Just my point. A demon is not "cast out in the draught", so Jesus clearly meant food.
I think demonic posession is real.
As I noted, this a parable, and the "draught" may not have to do with food. That's all I'm noting.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 09, 2013, 05:28:25 PM
Quote from: Nancy on July 09, 2013, 12:03:23 PM
Hi there all,
This discussion is speaking about a spirit entering a person, didn't Christ say the things that come from OUT of a man makes him unclean not what enters him.
I also believe that the devil is a metaphor for the human ego, with its lusts and wants and must haves and Christ was tempted by His ego not some supernatural devil. That's why Christ is honoured and worshipped because He silenced His ego which as we all know is a very hard thing to do.
As for the Gadarene, he could have had schzophrenia or multiple personality disorder. Even today people are afraid of the mentally ill.
Godbless
Nancy
I have pondered if Satan is a real person or a metaphor. There are many who believe he is a metaphor. I tend to believe he is a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person). I believe this because there is so much about Satan in the scriptures. It seems that metaphors in the scriptures are usually used more sparingly. However, your point that mental and personality disorders may explain many of the "demon possessions" in the scriptures is an interesting thought. If the terms "Satan," "devil," "demons," and "evil spirits" are metaphorical, then all of it would certainly make more sense to the human logic. But how do we know for sure? And how do we say that those terms are metaphors, and then turn around and say that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are real persons? Maybe my logic is weak here, but all that to say this: the idea of Satan's being a metaphor is a little scary to me and a lot of other Christians. :eek: Of course his being a real person is pretty scary too! :eek:
" I believe this because there is so much about Satan in the scriptures." (jbertonbounds)
The word satan is spoke of 54 times(KJV and other translations/versions that follow the KJV) from I Chron. 21:1 to Revelation that's really not so much. Just thought it should be noted. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 09:51:26 PM
I believe and know that the old Dragon, the Serpent, the Devil, the Adversary is very real.
But I personally have found no evidence that the enemy is a " person," as what the definition of a person is. A spirit being yes.
I am the one who referred to Satan as a person.
But I never said Satan was a real person - period.
What I said was, "I tend to believe he is
a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person). Meaning a real being, as opposed to a metaphor.
Just for clarification. :winkgrin: Wouldn't want to get caught up in a battle over wording. :laughing7:
To my heart and understanding, Jesus the Christ of God, being the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) was perfectly pure.
He suffered and felt sensations like a human being, yes.
He was tempted but only as a hungry human being would be tempted to eat bread if that human being was starving, but that does not mean that He had any kind of "ego" as in selfishness - He was Selfless - Love Divine - and Love Divine can only give and cannot take for the lesser self.
:dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 10:13:16 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 09, 2013, 05:28:25 PM
I have pondered if Satan is a real person or a metaphor. There are many who believe he is a metaphor. I tend to believe he is a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person). I believe this because there is so much about Satan in the scriptures. It seems that metaphors in the scriptures are usually used more sparingly. However, your point that mental and personality disorders may explain many of the "demon possessions" in the scriptures is an interesting thought. If the terms "Satan," "devil," "demons," and "evil spirits" are metaphorical, then all of it would certainly make more sense to the human logic. But how do we know for sure? And how do we say that those terms are metaphors, and then turn around and say that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are real persons? Maybe my logic is weak here, but all that to say this: the idea of Satan's being a metaphor is a little scary to me and a lot of other Christians. :eek: Of course his being a real person is pretty scary too! :eek:
" I believe this because there is so much about Satan in the scriptures." (jbertonbounds)
The word satan is spoke of 54 times(KJV and other translations/versions that follow the KJV) from I Chron. 21:1 to Revelation that's really not so much. Just thought it should be noted. :HeartThrob:
Of course, the terms "much" and "not much" are relative terms.
54 times seems like a lot too me. :2c:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 09, 2013, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 09:51:26 PM
I believe and know that the old Dragon, the Serpent, the Devil, the Adversary is very real.
But I personally have found no evidence that the enemy is a " person," as what the definition of a person is. A spirit being yes.
I am the one who referred to Satan as a person.
But I never said Satan was a real person - period.
What I said was, "I tend to believe he is a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person).
Meaning a real being, as opposed to a metaphor.
Just for clarification. :winkgrin: Wouldn't want to get caught up in a battle over wording. :laughing7:
Okay. I do understand the difficulty, I am right there as well. When I try to put the adversary into a
word of description, I always settle for "it." I myself, at least for now find in un perceiveable to personify the Devil. :dsunny:
Well I don't think it was an ego that caused a whole herd of pigs to drown themselves... :laughing7:
And there are loads of people who have witnessed seeing demons. I have many friends who have.
Quote from: lastpost on July 09, 2013, 10:33:03 PM
To my heart and understanding, Jesus the Christ of God, being the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) was perfectly pure.
He suffered and felt sensations like a human being, yes.
He was tempted but only as a hungry human being would be tempted to eat bread if that human being was starving, but that does not mean that He had any kind of "ego" as in selfishness - He was Selfless - Love Divine - and Love Divine can only give and cannot take for the lesser self.
:dsunny:
Like
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 10, 2013, 12:53:35 AM
Quote from: lastpost on July 09, 2013, 10:33:03 PM
To my heart and understanding, Jesus the Christ of God, being the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) was perfectly pure.
He suffered and felt sensations like a human being, yes.
He was tempted but only as a hungry human being would be tempted to eat bread if that human being was starving, but that does not mean that He had any kind of "ego" as in selfishness - He was Selfless - Love Divine - and Love Divine can only give and cannot take for the lesser self.
:dsunny:
Like
ABSOLUTELY LIKE! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 10, 2013, 12:45:43 AM
I have been at that place where the door has been locked, it is a terrible, terrifying sound. :sigh:
Are you speaking figuratively micah? If so can you explain?
Quote from: lomarah on July 10, 2013, 01:01:37 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 10, 2013, 12:45:43 AM
I have been at that place where the door has been locked, it is a terrible, terrifying sound. :sigh:
Are you speaking figuratively micah? If so can you explain?
Forgive my post please. I was trying to speak to a locked thread and in my frustration I posted here for lack of any other way to respond. My error. There is nothing to it. My apologies. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Really fascinating discussion! I do believe again that demonic possessions are real after reading all these comments. I believe it more in the sense though that demons manifest themselves in our weaknesses of the flesh such as anger, lusts, alcoholism, greed, etc. I don't think demons are big, red faced creatures with horns that run around scaring people. I think some people have more dramatic experiences with them being cast out than others. I am not as sensitive to these spirits as some of you guys, but I think it is pretty clear they are out there.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 09, 2013, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 09:51:26 PM
I believe and know that the old Dragon, the Serpent, the Devil, the Adversary is very real.
But I personally have found no evidence that the enemy is a " person," as what the definition of a person is. A spirit being yes.
I am the one who referred to Satan as a person.
But I never said Satan was a real person - period.
What I said was, "I tend to believe he is a real person (not human, but for lack of a better term, a person).
Meaning a real being, as opposed to a metaphor.
Just for clarification. :winkgrin: Wouldn't want to get caught up in a battle over wording. :laughing7:
Okay. I do understand the difficulty, I am right there as well. When I try to put the adversary into a
word of description, I always settle for "it." I myself, at least not yet, find it ridiculous to personify the Devil. :dsunny:
Yet, wouldnt you say that the scriptures personify him?
EW, I have to answer that, with a yes, and in the same breath, also ask, since the scriptures do, why have I not been led to see the devil/adversary as a person? Some translations use "it" most use "him he" and they vary in some verses. Perhaps, my understanding of identifing a person and a spirit being differs in my walk. In my walk the enemy does not accuse and attack me as or in the form of what the definition of a person is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Yes, I understand that, but since the scriptures, at least to some signifigant extent DO characterize hom as a person.....isnt it a little strong to characterize the concept as "ridiculous" :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 10, 2013, 06:52:53 PM
Yes, I understand that, but since the scriptures, at least to some signifigant extent DO characterize hom as a person.....isnt it a little strong to characterize the concept as "ridiculous" :o)
"Okay. I do understand the difficulty, I am right there as well. When I try to put the adversary into a
word of description, I always settle for "it." I myself, at least for now find in un perceiveable to personify the Devil. :dsunny: :)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 10, 2013, 06:52:53 PM
Yes, I understand that, but since the scriptures, at least to some signifigant extent DO characterize hom as a person.....isnt it a little strong to characterize the concept as "ridiculous" :o)
LIKE
This is me being an idiot, has any one seen him, the person? I ask because should the Devil be a person can anyone that has seen "him" describe him to me? I've seen pictures of what the imagination of man exploits "him," as, but I have not found a biblical description. :dontknow:
I dont think anybody as at any point suggested that the adversary is jus some person like a guy walkin down the street somewhere.... the issue is whether 1)he is a sentient being with a personal ego/id or 2) just an essence/spirit or principle of our own fallen nature without personality, without a thinking mind and sense of self/being.
I'm sorry and I am serious, I don't understand what you said. Sentient being? Essence/spirit?
Whether "just some person"? Like a guy walking down the street? Then what is a person? :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 10, 2013, 09:41:53 PM
This is me being an idiot, has any one seen him, the person? I ask because should the Devil be a person can anyone that has seen "him" describe him to me? I've seen pictures of what the imagination of man exploits "him," as, but I have not found a biblical description. :dontknow:
I think the Devil is just an evil spirit that manifests itself in people, and the demons are to Satan as to what the angels are to God. I think environments where there is a lot of fighting can attract those spirits or situations of sexual immorality where married couples watch porn. I think we all would agree that pornography destroys intimate relationships.
Porn is bad for your mental health!
Oops. Off topic.
"I think the Devil is just an evil spirit that manifests itself in people...."
Does that make that manifestation a "person"?
Porn is bad for your mental health? I can agree, but where did that come from?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 11, 2013, 04:02:52 AM
Porn is bad for your mental health? I can agree, but where did that come from?
Here.Quote from: Warhawk17 on July 11, 2013, 03:06:11 AM
I think the Devil is just an evil spirit that manifests itself in people, and the demons are to Satan as to what the angels are to God. I think environments where there is a lot of fighting can attract those spirits or situations of sexual immorality where married couples watch porn. I think we all would agree that pornography destroys intimate relationships.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 11, 2013, 04:02:52 AM
"I think the Devil is just an evil spirit that manifests itself in people...."
Does that make that manifestation a "person"?
Porn is bad for your mental health? I can agree, but where did that come from?
I was just giving an example of a good target for these demonic spirits. I read something about the porn industry today, and it reinforced my beliefs that no one should support that organization. I will not elaborate on that though to avoid going off topic.
Well don't read articles about the porn industry and you will probably be a little better. :2c:
I don't know. I feel like we should educate ourselves on topics like that so we can reach out to people who are hurting and hurting others from abuse of things like that. Now to connect back to the topic a bit, I have struggled with porn before, and I always felt really guilty about it. I thought demons were possessing me, and I would have nightmares about hideous creatures doing unspeakable things to me. When I found out this wonderful truth, my burden was lifted, and I was freed from a lot of the struggles I was having.
Now this is just my personal experience so don't take it to the bank as scriptural truth, but I think the demons I had were manifesting themselves in guilt as in God was mad at me for sinning and fear for the punishment I thought I would receive. I guess those thoughts made me rebel a bit more in my thoughts and actions against God and bring me farther away from God. I will tell you, there is no moment you feel farther away from God than when you believe He is just ready to strike you down for your sins at any moment.
Well, my only advice is don't try to hack into the "Medicine" thread! :LH:
Awesome Warhawk, the Truth sets free. :cloud9: :friendstu:
It sure does! :dsunny: My life has been so much more peaceful ever since I have known the truth.
Amen, mine too. And not for lack of wind and waves all about me, that's for sure lol! :smile: God is good. :HeartThrob:
I remember reading an article about "demons" if I can remember correctly, it mentioned that when the fallen angels came and had sex with the females on earth and created the "nephlim" or giants as in the old testiment who ended up being canibals etc.... then after the flood that wiped them all away (some believe the flood didn't wipe away the whole world, but thats a seperate discussion...) then these nephlim spirits still excisted after the flood but without bodies. so this artlice went on about these demonic spirits being from those times. spirits of lust, depression, self hate, fear, worry, addiction, the list goes on... basically all that isn't "godly" its really interesting isn't it. you could just look at it all as "ego" if that way helps you change your ways then great. i guess instead of casting out evil spirits through prayers in jesus' name etc... I guess you could "starve" these spirits by recognizing the unrighteous acts in yourself and changing your ways and resisting the temptation of these demonic spirits, or "ego" and sure enough you would think the spirit would pack up and leave and find a weaker willed body to inhabit. ?? who knows. I still like to remember when jesus said (forget what verse) that the laws are written on our hearts. I really love that verse. It shows us the answers are in our heart. how do we know we are listening to our hearts and not "satin" or an "demonic spirit" ??? discernment. but how do we know we are using discernment? aahhh! the deception can be so strong! thats what I deal with these days, we are living in the days of great deception. how do we know we are really listening to our hearts? are we being decieved? help me :laugh:
Quote from: jabcat on July 06, 2013, 12:58:17 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on July 06, 2013, 12:27:04 AM
I do not believe an evil spirit may enter a person that has the holy spirit of God residing in them. :Peace2:
:thumbsup: Aggravate, but not infiltrate.
Amen!
I know I am way behind in this discussion, lol!
But I would agree with this:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 06, 2013, 04:38:37 PM
Well, the manifestations that "devils" (strongs shuwd-malignancy) have are many, as in the scriptures. The madman of the Gadarenes was a good example. As to how you would kno there is a devil involved in a situation...... there is a gift of the spirit called "discernment of spirits"- that is one way. Another is just by the manifestation itself. I have seen spirits(had my eyes opened to see spirits)- I think this is one operation of the gift of discerning of spirits. I once was in a room where a girl who had become demon possessed was being prayed for. The demons in her were speaking to people in the room that she did not kno personally, with knowledge of details of their lives, combined with many insults and "glory to Satan" praises etc. One of the men in the room( a minister in this street ministry in Detroit Mich.) stood up to strike the girl. At this I grabbed him to stop him and the girl got up to leave.
The Lord spoke to me, "Tell her to sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus". So I looked over at her and said, (I was a relatively new beliver at the time but I am good at following instructions), "Sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus" and it was like an invisible hand slapped her down on her back and she stayed there, unable to get up for several hours until some brothers from another inner city ministry that had more experience with deliverance came and picked her up. She became a isciple of Chrsit and I saw her around the fellowship a few times after that.
I have had a few other experiences of supernatural healing and deliverance along the way in my walk with God.
I ask no one to take my word on these things, if they run contrary to your doctrinal beliefs write me off as a madman ;o) I really dont care :o)
...never seen it that clearly or been that close to it.. but have 'seen' somewhat like it.. and it rings true to me.
I believe there are many demons and many angels (twice as many). I personally believe they are around causing more troubles, or at the root of more troubles than we know.. i also think they operate as an army with commanders and the like, campaigns or orders and ways of doing things, with many going forth with the same orders, which is why some things seem to multiply.. suicide(s) for instance, and I shudder to even write the word, but it seems to be 'catching' they say.. I don't suppose I would say all troubles come from the dark angels/entities, but a whole bunch, yes, and each one, or trouble, is based on a lie, the foundation being untruth, but the sWord of truth delivers and sets right.. imo :))
I also believe dark spirit/entities/fallen-angels work at being obstacles and impediments to truth, to the gospel, to UR, to the tearing down of that blasphemy 'hell'.. etc.. etc.. Also think they are the real "conspiracy" (as to conspiracy theories) - with the 'god of the air' being literal - 'god of the air'waves.. influencing the minds.. whole societal trends.. etc.
Nothing to fear though! heavens no! We've read the back of the Book!! :)) God wins ALL!! it's all serving a (divine) purpose :))
..been reading through so many GOOD replies, but can't keep quoting them all :rolllol: (and still only on the 1st page)
..there's a phrase which comes to my mind when someone is very angry or extremely frustrated or in a very bad mood.. I know I read somewhere in a novel.. the phrase is "in the grip of a foul spirit"
I'm thinking the writer meant it as a nice turn of words meaning to be in a foul mood, but I read it differently, tho I didn't when I first read it!
It's sort of like when I read "Robinson Crusoe" at like age 12 and kept reading "Providence" did this, "Providence did that" - I didn't realize this as more than a fancy turn on words!! til much later that is :))
Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him 1 Samuel 16:14
A spirit came forth and stood before the Lord and said, "I will persuade him" . And the Lord said, "How will you do it?" The spirit replied, "I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouth of His prophets". The Lord said, "You will persuade Him, go on and do it."
A couple of verses for people who think they know it all. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2013, 02:46:07 AM
Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him 1 Samuel 16:14
A spirit came forth and stood before the Lord and said, "I will persuade him" . And the Lord said, "How will you do it?" The spirit replied, "I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouth of His prophets". The Lord said, "You will persuade Him, go on and do it."
A couple of verses for people who think they know it all. :o)
Well, sir and friend I am not one of them folk who think they know it all, but I agree.
I love those two narratives (the fall of Saul and the fall of Ahab). Behold both the kindness and the severity of the Lord. Our God is full of mystery and i am glad it is so :o)
Is that not proof that the Lord uses evil for his purpose in his divine plan for the universe? Isaiah 45.7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." God created Satan evil. John 8.44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning... Satan is not a good angel gone bad. God created him evil from the start. Satan has a purpose in God's plan. It is God's purpose, not Satan's.
what I wonder about sometimes is... lets take someone who have lived a life free from violence, were brought up in a loving family around loving friends, far from hate, murder, and other evils. and this person passed away peacefully and lived a beautiful life around loving and peaceful caring people. and take the person who lived a life in a violent family, who murdered and hated and did so many evil things and spent a life suffering and never had a loving family or friends.
So if GODS plan was to create evil ,"or satan" for a purpose, was it just those unlucky people who got that end of the stick and we are the lucky ones? or will we have to experience that "other side" or "satan" some time in our life, or after life so we have the "full experience" scary to think of. it some how just doesn't seem fair does it? but I don't wish that on myself or anyone here to have to go through that eveil experience to have a full balanced experience of GOD.
:dontknow:
There is no one on this earth who has had a life free from evil!!! We all have the wheat AND the tares. Everyone has the tares. :2c:
:thumbsup: I think the whole earth,in the naturaal testifies to the propensity of weeds,constant vigilence
and a battle waged to keep them at a minimum. do they not 'pop up" overnite?
they 'suck up' water and nutrients from the more desirable plants...and grow hardy while others
are spindly...and are generally very poisonous. Some may apper quite beautiful but are deadly
some coz blisters and rash,some prick....some are used for remedies[ a little hair of the dog/
serpent lifted on a pole type...foxglove/digitalis..for failing hearts]
God is a just God. It takes faith to believe that. Most of us were raised on ET and taught that God was not a just God. (ET's say God is just, but their teachings do not say it.) Remember the scripture that says, "47And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." [Luke 12:47-48, ESV] This teaches us that, because God knows what each of us is given (because he gave it to us), He will take that into consideration in the judgment. The punishment will "fit the crime." In our limited understanding, it sometimes can seem unfair, but God is a just God - believe that and trust Him. Always remember this: there is no such thing as "luck." God works all things out for the good of his followers. There is nothing whatsoever for us to fear. And yes, it would be scary indeed if luck were in any part of the equation! :eek:
Here is the way I see it: Because we believe, we are going through judgment while we are here on the earth by suffering with the Christ. God does the impossible and allows us to die the "second death" (death of our self-will) before we die the first death (physical death). He then also allows us to suffer the judgment (the sufferings with the Christ) before our first (physical) death. Then when we die our physical death, we have already been judged and suffered, and we are resurrected to eonian life for the millennium and given immortal spiritual bodies. We will not suffer the "second death" after the Great White Throne Judgment, because we died that death back on earth for the sake of the Christ.
:dsunny:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 12, 2013, 07:38:18 PM
Is that not proof that the Lord uses evil for his purpose in his divine plan for the universe? Isaiah 45.7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." God created Satan evil. John 8.44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning... Satan is not a good angel gone bad. God created him evil from the start. Satan has a purpose in God's plan. It is God's purpose, not Satan's.
If God made Satan a murderer, then God is evil and good. The fact that Satan was a murderer from the beginning would not be any kind of a rebuke t the Pharisees, after all God made Satan a murderer and God made the Pharisees murderers and no one should woryy because God made them what they are and only He can change them. Kinda simplistic and fatalistic to me, and a lot resting on from the beginning. Beginning of what? It doesnt necessarily mean he was created evil. Isaiah 45:7 is set in the context of God judging Israel for their backsliding. "I create chaos and I create peace...... In other words, if you obey you will dwell in the land and have peace....If you rebel I will allow chaos and unrest to come upon you.
God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Yet, He creates evil. God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil, according to the apostle James, one of the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem......
I believe God uses evil and causes all things to work together for good and causes all things to work according to the council of His will.....but IMO He does no evil.
I didn't say God DID evil. What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil." Let me add that God tempts no one with evil. Let us not confuse evil with sin. Many use these terms interchangeably.
IMO they are not the same thing. Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division. Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err. Sin is evil, but evil is not sin. To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil. To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction. Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.
Who created all things? God. Therefore, who created Satan? God. Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil? No. God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil. Yet he created him anyway. Who created humans? God. Who gave humans our weakness? God. Who put us on the earth? God. Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth? God. Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans? God. Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition? God. Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops! I didn't see that coming." :sigh:? No. It was all part of the plan since from before the creation. Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation. God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be. It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.
:banana: :dsunny:
I believe all this stuff is a little blurry, but in my opinion, if God created a murderer, He did evil.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 13, 2013, 12:25:32 AM
I didn't say God DID evil. What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil." Let me add that God tempts no one with evil. Let us not confuse evil with sin. Many use these terms interchangeably.
IMO they are not the same thing. Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division. Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err. Sin is evil, but evil is not sin. To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil. To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction. Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.
Who created all things? God. Therefore, who created Satan? God. Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil? No. God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil. Yet he created him anyway. Who created humans? God. Who gave humans our weakness? God. Who put us on the earth? God. Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth? God. Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans? God. Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition? God. Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops! I didn't see that coming." :sigh:? No. It was all part of the plan since from before the creation. Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation. God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be. It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.
:banana: :dsunny:
:iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 13, 2013, 12:48:54 AM
I believe all this stuff is a little blurry, but in my opinion, if God created a murderer, He did evil.
It just seems to me,
it just seems to me, that putting all this "stuff always to be a little blurry" as the glass darkly that you speak of so often, keeps the the one fact and truth beyond our admission.
Now if UR is going to say ALL is ALL, then when I read, 16
for in Him is ALL created,
that in the heavens and that on the earth, the
visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, ALL is created through Him and for Him,17
and He is before ALL, and ALL has its cohesion in Him.Then for me it is not through a glass darkly or a little blurry, either it's ALL
and He is before ALL, and ALL has its cohesion in Him. or ALL is not ALL.
So if ALL is ALL then it is not my opinion. :HeartThrob:
Just to add, HE is the Creator of everything that man has lived and died through. Why do we question the Lord God in how He brings His creation to the fullness that we believe and know He will do? Should evil,the adversary, and demons be, then is it not His Wisdom that is higher and more wise than mans attempt at understanding? "I AM THAT WHICH I AM" Ex. 3:14
Well, that God will be ALL in ALL is foundational and clear by direct statements, many and uncontestable in context when properly translated.
The same cannot be said about God creating Satan a murderer.
I hav made very careful and well defined staements about the peripheral doctrines that I consider to be purposely murky and paradoxical by the God of mysteries who prefers not to be boxed by men. UR is certainly not one of them :o)
That God created Satan a murderer is an opinion, IMO :o)
That Isaiah 45:7 is a proof text for God creating Satan evil from the beginning is also, (Because of its context and few similar witnesses across the whole of scripture) also contestable, and definitely not foundational.
So are we just lucky we haven't had a life of torture and murder (forgive me if some here have) if we will experience all that god is at some point will that jut be love or also a taste of the worst pain created as well??
Quote from: eaglesway on July 13, 2013, 01:41:58 AM
Well, that God will be ALL in ALL is foundational and clear by direct statements, many and uncontestable in context when properly translated.
The same cannot be said about God creating Satan a murderer.
I hav made very careful and well defined staements about the peripheral doctrines that I consider to be purposely murky and paradoxical by the God of mysteries who prefers not to be boxed by men. UR is certainly not one of them :o)
That God created Satan a murderer is an opinion, IMO :o)
That Isaiah 45:7 is a proof text for God creating Satan evil from the beginning is also, (Because of its context and few similar witnesses across the whole of scripture) also contestable, and definitely not foundational.
[/quote
Is...in or out of your context? Col. 16 for in Him is ALL created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, ALL is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before ALL, and ALL has its cohesion in Him.
Just how within your, "...defined staements about the peripheral doctrines that I consider to be purposely murky and paradoxical by the God of mysteries who prefers not to be boxed by men. UR is certainly not one of them :o)?"
So ALL in UR is ALL and the rest of ALL is "purposely murky and paradoxical by the God..." I'm not trying to cause a problem, but either ALL is ALL or I need a new definition for all.
Quote from: musicman on July 13, 2013, 01:59:49 AM
So are we just lucky we haven't had a life of torture and murder (forgive me if some here have) if we will experience all that god is at some point will that jut be love or also a taste of the worst pain created as well??
For me it's called life. I would expect, and I only assume, that when Cain killed Abel, that Adam and Eve felt the first remorse known to man. And as Job said, Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
However, again, here the question is what evil is Job speaking of? He is speaking of trial, difficulty, chaos -that which is for the purification of our faith- as Job's faith WAS purified ("My ears had heard but now my eyes hav seen and I abhor myself").....to me this has nothing to do with the kind of evil we speak of in connection to the motives within the activites of Satan and wicked men.
Does God use those things? Of course. Does God do those things, either directly or indirectly? I personally dont think so.
Perhaps there are 3 different kinds of evil
1)Sinful motives, thoughts and acts, "Let no man say when he tempted, I am tempted by God, for God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyman. Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin and sin conceives death".
2)The chaos that is the seed bed for the growth of life and faith, "The earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters....Beloved, be not amazed at the variety and volume of trial that comes upon you. It is for the purification of your faith"
3)The chaos that results when God withdraws the canopy of peace because of the rebellion and disregard of His creatures...."Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day,"Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not in the midst of us?".
IMO to confuse the three as being all the same ignores the context of scripture in the same way not understanding the 3 forms of "judgment" ignores the context of scripture. Some see judgment as only "condemnation" or "damnation". It can mean "objective appraisal", it can mean, "to pass sentence on the guilty"...... it can mean "the wisdom of God". Only the context tells us(along in some cases with proper translation) when "judgment" means one thing or the other in the various places it is used in the English versions of the Bible. I submit that the word "evil" is EXACTLY the same. Otherwise I have to ignore some other verses, and I believe every foundational doctrine will satisfy ALL the scriptures. IMO, if it doesnt, then it is 1) error 2) a "half-truth" playing one side of the coin against the other- the full coin being the "whole counsel of God" or 3) It is a peripheral truth left like a mote in the eye for people with logs in their eyes to stumble over.
I cannot claim, in this particular discussion, to hav the "full coin" and I do not pretend too. I just see some holes in what is being presented as foundational truth so I am pointing them out- purely as opinions from my own perspective- not for the purpose of overturning someone elses position but rather to say.... I think the real deal is a little further in, a little higher up, a little deeper down :o)
You use chaos and calamity as though that will change what the Lord God created and made to grow, a tree of good and evil way back in Genesis. Evil: H7451 same evil as Genesis 2:17 and Isa. 45:7. Why is it you think that the Creator has a fault, so to speak, that He cannot use what He created to work out his plan?
If any one is confusing the matter, I, in my opinion think it is you, who cannot fathom a Creator who will use the means that He knew and created would bring about His plan and purpose. Using evil, chaos, calamity, distress, grief, adversity, affliction, bad, mischief, harm, hurt, sorrow, trouble, to do what His thoughts and reason was best for His creation.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Who got this ball of creation rolling? Who is the A of this alphabet? Who is the Genesis of ALL that is working?
If or should it not be Jehovah, then just who is it? He started this whole thing and I trust He is and will take respondsibilty for ALL that is/was/ and will be.
I can fathom it.... I just see it differently than you do, and I am not stating absolutes... I am just questioning one. If I confuse the issue that is fine really. Light comes out of darkness. Order out of chaos. The spirit is hovering over our chaos seeking the image of Christ in us, LET THERE BE LIGHT :o)
Quote from: musicman on July 13, 2013, 01:59:49 AM
So are we just lucky we haven't had a life of torture and murder (forgive me if some here have) if we will experience all that god is at some point will that jut be love or also a taste of the worst pain created as well??
Ecc 11:8 But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity.
Darkness: H2822 the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 13, 2013, 12:25:32 AM
I didn't say God DID evil. What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil." Let me add that God tempts no one with evil. Let us not confuse evil with sin. Many use these terms interchangeably.
IMO they are not the same thing. Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division. Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err. Sin is evil, but evil is not sin. To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil. To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction. Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.
Who created all things? God. Therefore, who created Satan? God. Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil? No. God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil. Yet he created him anyway. Who created humans? God. Who gave humans our weakness? God. Who put us on the earth? God. Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth? God. Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans? God. Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition? God. Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops! I didn't see that coming." :sigh:? No. It was all part of the plan since from before the creation. Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation. God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be. It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 13, 2013, 03:32:03 AM
I cannot claim, in this particular discussion, to hav the "full coin" and I do not pretend too. I just see some holes in what is being presented as foundational truth so I am pointing them out- purely as opinions from my own perspective- not for the purpose of overturning someone elses position but rather to say.... I think the real deal is a little further in, a little higher up, a little deeper down :o)
Actually, I presented this as
MY OPINION, as you can see above.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 12, 2013, 09:58:24 PM
God is a just God. It takes faith to believe that. Most of us were raised on ET and taught that God was not a just God. (ET's say God is just, but their teachings do not say it.) Remember the scripture that says, "47And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." [Luke 12:47-48, ESV] This teaches us that, because God knows what each of us is given (because he gave it to us), He will take that into consideration in the judgment. The punishment will "fit the crime." In our limited understanding, it sometimes can seem unfair, but God is a just God - believe that and trust Him. Always remember this: there is no such thing as "luck." God works all things out for the good of his followers. There is nothing whatsoever for us to fear. And yes, it would be scary indeed if luck were in any part of the equation! :eek:
Here is the way I see it: Because we believe, we are going through judgment while we are here on the earth by suffering with the Christ. God does the impossible and allows us to die the "second death" (death of our self-will) before we die the first death (physical death). He then also allows us to suffer the judgment (the sufferings with the Christ) before our first (physical) death. Then when we die our physical death, we have already been judged and suffered, and we are resurrected to eonian life for the millennium and given immortal spiritual bodies. We will not suffer the "second death" after the Great White Throne Judgment, because we died that death back on earth for the sake of the Christ.
AND HERE.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 12, 2013, 07:38:18 PM
Is that not proof that the Lord uses evil for his purpose in his divine plan for the universe? Isaiah 45.7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." God created Satan evil. John 8.44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning... Satan is not a good angel gone bad. God created him evil from the start. Satan has a purpose in God's plan. It is God's purpose, not Satan's.
Whether God planned for Satan to be evil BEFORE he created him, or Satan was evil WHEN he was created, or Satan became evil LATER, does it make any difference? God in sovereign. God knows all. God is in control. God knew before time began, before he created Satan, just exactly what Satan would be and what Satan would do. Satan, the earth, humans, and God's plan for the universe were all premeditated by God. Of course
this is just MY OPINION.
I accept your opinion as very sound. :dsunny:
I accept your opinion as very sound. :dsunny:
a few thoughts on the use of the evil' contrast.......but an 'educational tool "used of the Father. the nature
of evil is not in any relation the nature of God..it is'in it's nature' not what God is;it's 'godlessness".
now, that Father implemented this in His education of his children,I accept...and that He has not failed
to educate us of it's nature and danger...I concur.
DO NOT EAT FROM THE TREE LEST YE DIE Exodus 21;28 if aa bull gores a man or a woman to death,
the bull must be stoned to death and it's meat not eaten. But the owner of the bull willl not be held responsible
IF however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept
it penned up,and it kills a man or a woman,the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put t death
Deut 22;8 when you build a new house make a parapet around your roof,so that you may not bring
the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.
I offer the above scriptures to show..through the law...how seriously our Father takes the preservation
of life...and how from the start He built in 'parapets and penned in " the evil contrast..to protect life.
[they shll cause no harm on my Holy mountain]
another thought for consideration is in regard to the children/offspring of God,is this....it is sown
a natur4aal body and raised up a ssspiritual body...unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth and die
it remains alone,but if it fall to the earth and die..it bears much fruit in heaven.. God sowed His spiritual
seed in a feild[dust/clay vessel/natural body] an enemy come at night and sowed tares also in the feild
[good/evil mix/tree] they both grow togather until harvest...the 'tares are removed and burned[evil
seed/mystery of godlessness]...the 'wheat' good seed of God[mystery of godliness are gathered in the barns
of heaven[much fruit] there is the seperation of good/evil at harvest.
the wicked man accused God of reaping where He did not sow[saving evil people[feild over-run with tares
but God knows He sowed a wheat in that feild] nd becoz the wicked[tares] encompassed the
righteous/wheat..correct judgement did not go forth[Rev 20;9] 2 Sam 22;5 Ps 18;4 40;12 116;3 Jon 2;3
the bearing much fruit in heaven is also related to 'the just spirits of men made perfect" the spirit
seed/wheat..in the barns of heaaven. I myself will finish their training..'all shall be taught of God"
with the upward call...the spiritual man see's a different perspective and veiw as he looks upon the sown
feilds...a veiw not hindered by tares surrounding him....he is 'perfected' in correct judgement............
He receives the same veiwpoint of God and Jesus...'surely I spoke of things I did not understand.....
things too wonderful for me. For the 'Wonderful Counselor" has finished his training Jdgs 13;18 the strong
man..'whatever you bind[tares] on earth is bound in heaven...whatever you loose[wheat] on earth is loosed
in heaven[free...the sons of the kingdom are free] Mat 12;29 Or again,how can anyone enter a strong
man's house and carry off his possessions[robber theif/accuses 'you reap where you did not sow] unless
he first binds up[bound in sin] the strong man? Then he can rob his house
John the Baptist[spirit and power of Elijah] 'After me will come one more stronger then I am,the thongs of
whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie"
He sends forth His angels to gather the tares..and bind them up in bundles to burn[this REDEEMER WHO
IS STRONG] then gther MY wheat into the brns of heaven.
He comes like a robber and theif to the house of the one who thinks he has[feilds with tares sown] and
what he thinks he has is taken away from him[wickedness/godlessness possesing a man/tares sown]
P.S. the TOKOGAE is the developement of discernment . As God brought to Adam the creatures
for him to observe[discern characteristics,nature] and then name accordingly[if you can name it..you can
get dominion over it....for this reason we are all given a new name that no-one knows but the one who
receives it...this way..another spirit can not mislead you..[a seal..so to speak..a garuntee it is from God..
.you answer only to God/Christ.....though those
of your peers
may know and call you of a different name .thus Jesus asking the spirit it's name..exercizing
authority over it.
It takes a very fine discernment..to overcome.[now the serpent was the most subtil beast of the feild,
it is this very subtilness that makes very fine discernment necessary
.it takes the spirit oof God.....'I speak only what I hear.."
it takes GOD REVEALING IT TO YOU. He has promised nothing hidden will not be revealed.....and you
that are 'hidden' in Christ,shall be revealed as the sons of God
we are as but little children.. while we are down here....mature sons[brn from above] have discernment
that little children do not possess as of yet[the saints were overcome] Rev 14 Overcomers on Mt Zoin who
sing a song no-one could learn except them[no lie found in their mouths=discernment of truth from deception]
as of yet,we easily wander from the striat and narrow...a little too faar to the left,a little to far to the right
and the 'wicked generation' perishes in the wilderness...walking the crooked path of the serpent
and like a drunken man.. But we are not alne..our Shepherd is with us
.Isaih 30;20-21 Although the Lrd gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction,YOUR
TEACHERS WILL BE HIDDEN NO MORE;with your own eyes you will see them, whether you turn to the
right or turn to the left,your ears will hear a voice behind you,saying, 'THIS IS THE WAY;WALK IN IT"
INDEED,the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God
goooood word sheila
yes, interesting :thumbsup:
1 Peter 5:10
And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
All suffering ans evil of this world is nothing compared to the bliss of the kigdom of God in my opinion.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 13, 2013, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 13, 2013, 12:25:32 AM
I didn't say God DID evil. What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil." Let me add that God tempts no one with evil. Let us not confuse evil with sin. Many use these terms interchangeably.
IMO they are not the same thing. Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division. Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err. Sin is evil, but evil is not sin. To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil. To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction. Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.
Who created all things? God. Therefore, who created Satan? God. Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil? No. God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil. Yet he created him anyway. Who created humans? God. Who gave humans our weakness? God. Who put us on the earth? God. Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth? God. Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans? God. Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition? God. Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops! I didn't see that coming." :sigh:? No. It was all part of the plan since from before the creation. Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation. God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be. It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 13, 2013, 03:32:03 AM
I cannot claim, in this particular discussion, to hav the "full coin" and I do not pretend too. I just see some holes in what is being presented as foundational truth so I am pointing them out- purely as opinions from my own perspective- not for the purpose of overturning someone elses position but rather to say.... I think the real deal is a little further in, a little higher up, a little deeper down :o)
Actually, I presented this as MY OPINION, as you can see above.
Hey JB, this is just a forum and I am responding to the general topic, not you in particular- If I explain the reasoning behind my perspective it is so ANYONE ELSE who is reading can get a whiff of where I am coming from- not a commentary on any individuals position, because the subject is so broad- I wouldn't think to pigeonhole you or anyone else like that. Like I said, for me it is just a discussion. :o)
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):
Where do these spirits reside?
For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.
Quote from: KingKenny on August 09, 2013, 08:24:04 PM
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):
Where do these spirits reside?
For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.
"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the Adversary," "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," "the Slanderer," and "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air" is head of the forces of evil.
Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss.
Quote from: Tom on August 09, 2013, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: KingKenny on August 09, 2013, 08:24:04 PM
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):
Where do these spirits reside?
For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.
"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the Adversary," "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," "the Slanderer," and "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air" is head of the forces of evil.
Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss.
I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "
So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of
the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
Just wondering :Chinscratch:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 09, 2013, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 09, 2013, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: KingKenny on August 09, 2013, 08:24:04 PM
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):
Where do these spirits reside?
For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.
"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the Adversary," "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," "the Slanderer," and "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air" is head of the forces of evil.
Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss.
I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "
So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
Just wondering :Chinscratch:
There are several accounts in the Greek scriptures about Christ casting out demons from folks here on earth which is the terrestrial realm.
14 And he was casting out a demon, and it was a mute one. Now it occurred, at the coming out of the demon, that the mute man speaks. And the throngs marvel.
15 Yet some of them said, "By Beelzeboul, the chief of the demons, is he casting out the demons." Yet He, answering, said, "How can Satan be casting out Satan?"
16 Yet others, trying Him, sought a sign out of heaven from Him.
17 Yet He, aware of their cogitations, said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is being desolated, and house against house is falling.
18 Now if Satan, also, is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand-seeing that you are saying, I am casting out the demons by Beelzeboul? (Luke 11:14-18)
Christ seems to be implying that Beelzeboul is a subordinate of Satan.
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"Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss."
I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "
So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
Just wondering :Chinscratch:
I don't believe I said anything about where the casting out took place. Most certainly the casting out was from earthy-terrestial. I misunderstood the question from KingKenny "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 09, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
"Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss."
I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "
So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."
Just wondering :Chinscratch:
I don't believe I said anything about where the casting out took place. Most certainly the casting out was from earthy-terrestial. I misunderstood the question from KingKenny "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:
We're all just students of scripture, bro, trying to understand its mysteries. I think it's great we have a place to share our ideas so we can all see different perspectives. I don't use the King James anymore. So I don't use the word "hell" because I know it's just an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades" which literally means "unseen" referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. I don't consider "hell" a place where evil spirits reside. I don't even consider it a place despite the fact that I know church doctrine says it's a place where Satan lives and torments dead unbelievers who are said to be alive. I prefer the Concordant Version to the King James. It's a more accurate translation that doesn't have "hell" in it. I think the "spirits reside" in the spiritual realm, but demons seem to operate in the terrestrial realm. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/index.html
I still and will always read and use the KJV. For me it is the one translation that transports the essence of how theology and all it's denominations "try" to explain to people who the Lord has found and who have yielded to His Love as to what He has said. The Lord has enlightened me to the many translations and versions and I use them. Like one poster used the idiom in Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
The Lamsa translation makes it clear, "Again I say to you,It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle......****The Aramaic word for "gamla" means rope and camel.
" I think the "spirits reside" in the spiritual realm, but demons seem to operate in the terrestrial realm." (Tom)
I read the spirits reside in the "high places" and those warring spirits, which are devils, are sent to the earthy-terrestrial, you and me, to cause havoc to our spiritual walk. That of course is my opinion. :Peace2:
I've checked out the Lamsa and other Aramaic versions. That's funny! This program they have here changed the spelling of the "P" word for the Aramaic version twice to "Percrapta" because it had four letters in it that looked like scat to the censor I guess. I use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer which provides comparison of the Concordant Version with the King James and Young's Literal Translation, but I do my reading with the Concordant Version. Spirits are obviously in the invisible spiritual realm which I think is subject to a different experience of time and space than we are, but all I remember reading about demons is stories of them causing trouble for us mortals here on earth. I don't think they can "possess" believers, but they still try to deceive us. By the way, the Concordant Version doesn't use the word "devil" either.
Ephesians 2:2 seems to imply it is Satan who is "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air." Scripture says there are at least three layers of heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2). I don't believe the church myth that Satan is under the ground in a pit of fire torturing dead unbelievers. Satan is in heaven now, but he will be cast out in the future (Revelation 12:9).
Here are a few verses relevant to the so called "fall of Satan" that is not in the scriptures.
Ezekiel refers to the king of Tyre not Satan (Ezekiel 28:15). The king of Tyre is a man, and Satan is not a man (Ezekiel 28:2,9).
Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon in the future day of Israel's restoration not Satan's fall in the past (Isaiah 14:3-20). Then Satan will have been cast out of heaven (Revelation 12:9). The King of Babylon is a man (Isaiah 14:16), and Satan is not a man.
"Lucifer" is used once in the King James Version as a mistranslation of the Hebrew for "howl" (Isaiah 14:12). The same exact Hebrew word is used in (Zechariah 11:2). Variations of the word are in (Isaiah 14:31; 13:6; 15:2,3; 16:7; 23:1,6,14; 52:5; 65:14).
Luke refers to Satan's action in response to the casting out of demons in Christ's name not the so called "fall of Satan" (Luke 10:18).
"From the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (1 John 3:8)
"He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)
Most Christians won't believe you if you tell them Satan is in heaven, but that's because church doctrine doesn't conform to the word of God.
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The adversary, satan as some refer to the enemy, never "fell" from anywhere. The devil was a murderer and liar from the beginning. Isa. and Ezk. are religious myths and kept alive for the purpose of control.
Amen, bro. Everything the church does is for control through fear.
The church you are referring to is the one that has a name that lives, but is dead. Or the one that is a synagogue of Satan. it is not the one that is the body of the Lord- the fulness of Him who fills all in all :o)
I, me personally take issue with that statement.
"The church you are referring to is the one that has a name that lives, but is dead. Or the one that is a synagogue of Satan. it is not the one that is the body of the Lord- the fulness of Him who fills all in all :o)"
It most certainly is. Just where do you believe, think, or consider, where the adversary, satan, the enemy, the devil, the accuser resides? Outside of the called out? Just what good would that do? The enemy is right there, in your face every day. Can you deny it? I can't.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Either the adversary is ruling or Jesus is ruling........you be the decisive vote, I am weak.
I understand what folks are saying about the "false church," but I think "church" is the worldly system established by the Roman Empire based on doctrine that contradicts the word of God with corrupt tradition of man even if you're of the Protestant persuasion. I think we are the "ecclesia," the "called-out" of the worldly system to be the "body of Christ." Our fleshly bodies are still here to shine the light of God's love in this world of darkness, but we know we're headed to our home in heaven some day. Like I said, there are believers in the church who don't realize the doctrine they are taught is false. I think we all here were probably there at one time. I just prefer to call us the "ecclesia" rather than the "church." I was raised in the Roman church, and I refuse to have anything to do with it anymore because I know what it's about. I know how it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture and distorted scripture to deceive people to perpetuate its own worldly power. Protestants don't seem to realize they are still really a part of the Roman church because they teach its doctrine of immortality of the soul, torture forever in fire for those who die as unbelievers, and the triune godhead. I've been "called-out" of the church, and I'm not compromising with it in any way including any of its terminology that undermines scripture truth. That's why I don't distinguish between the real church and the false church. The pope is head of the church, but Christ is head of the ecclesia. The word "church" is not in Greek scripture. I say all this in the spirit of love to all my brothers and sisters here whether they still follow church tradition or not. I don't need the tradition of the church to follow Christ. I have the word of God inspired by the spirit of God, and I have the fellowship of the body of Christ. I come to this website to share the spirit of God with my brothers and sisters in the body of Christ, but I'm not a member of any church and never will be again.
Didn't have time to read this whole thread, but a couple of interesting Biblical passages on the subject are: 1) I think in Acts some Jews tried to cast out a demon in the name of Jesus, but the demon went after them and gave them some serious grief - maybe the lesson was to know what you're doing first, or something like that; 2) Maybe in Samuel, King Saul had made a decree or something against mediums who contact spirits, but then when he found his life endangered by his own disobedience to God he went to a medium to ask her to contact Samuel for him, after Samuel had died. Although she was afraid it might be a trap apparently, she did agree to do it and apparently Samuel did come through her to talk with Saul, predicting that Saul had done a foolish thing and he would be killed after all 70 of his own sons died, so that David's house could take the kingship, I think.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2013, 07:26:22 AM
I, me personally take issue with that statement.
"The church you are referring to is the one that has a name that lives, but is dead. Or the one that is a synagogue of Satan. it is not the one that is the body of the Lord- the fulness of Him who fills all in all :o)"
It most certainly is. Just where do you believe, think, or consider, where the adversary, satan, the enemy, the devil, the accuser resides? Outside of the called out? Just what good would that do? The enemy is right there, in your face every day. Can you deny it? I can't.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Either the adversary is ruling or Jesus is ruling........you be the decisive vote, I am weak.
You may hav misunderstood my point, or maybe I am not making it well. My point is, there is something we call "church" that is not really "church" (a tabernacle of living stones fitly joined together bu the mortar of brotherly love, built without hands upon a foundation in the heavens).
Ffom the letters to the seven churches we can see that there are churhes that are
1) totally false
2) full of mixture and given space to repent and return to purity
3) in suffering and glorifying God as overcomers
The real "church" is the ecclesia of God (called out ones), universally registered in heaven(Hebrews 12)
I think people get this confused, and blame the "church" for the works of the synagogues of Satan, so I was saying, I think, pretty much what you are saying- they are not really churches at all- so dont call them "churches" if Messiah has no home in them.
The tru church of the Lord is "the ecclesia", Jesus is their head, and they are His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 09, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
I misunderstood the question from KingKenny "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:
That's what I mean. When I was heavy in the New Age Movement, there were those who could conjure up spirits (which after my experiences to date have shown them all to be demonic deceptions) for the purposes of spirit guides, for psychics, to show reincarnation to be true. There are also urban myths of selling your soul to the devil i.e. Robert Johnson (blues guitarist). Whether that is true or not is debatable, but after leaving the occult behind and finally ditching the evil doctrine of eternal damnation, I find myself in a situation pondering where those spirits which I, and others I used to know, dealt with came from?
I don't believe in the eternal hell, but Hades, the realm of the dead. So then, where do they come from?
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/index.html
Quote from: KingKenny on August 13, 2013, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 09, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
I misunderstood the question from KingKenny "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:
That's what I mean. When I was heavy in the New Age Movement, there were those who could conjure up spirits (which after my experiences to date have shown them all to be demonic deceptions) for the purposes of spirit guides, for psychics, to show reincarnation to be true. There are also urban myths of selling your soul to the devil i.e. Robert Johnson (blues guitarist). Whether that is true or not is debatable, but after leaving the occult behind and finally ditching the evil doctrine of eternal damnation, I find myself in a situation pondering where those spirits which I, and others I used to know, dealt with came from?
I don't believe in the eternal hell, but Hades, the realm of the dead. So then, where do they come from?
Father of lies, Author of confusion, Principalities and powers, rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms.... the best way to deceive is to represent a myriad of truths.
The spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is risen in the flesh, the spirit that confesses Jesus as Messiah and Lord- that spirit is of God. The rest are floating in waterless places seeking hosts like the invasion of the body snatchers :o) If they have hosts, they are seeking to increase their dominion and manifest the nature of the "spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience"- having come only to steal, kill and destroy, the taskmaster, the accuser of the brethren, :2c:
Quote from: Warhawk17 on July 05, 2013, 11:42:40 PM
There was a time when I was borderline obsessed with this topic. I've watched many shows and horror movies where people were supposedly possessed by demons, and Catholic priests were called in to perform exorcisms. Many of the shows billed the events as true stories, and I thought these things were the real deal. I don't really believe in that stuff anymore, and I believe many theories about demonic possession come from pagan theology. What is everyone's take on this?
Matt 28:34 28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, "[a]What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, "If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine." 32 And He said to them, "Go!" And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, [c]including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.
Unless there a major translation issue or Jesus hired a bunch of actors I would say demon(ic possesion) is real :URWelcome: