Do we have a choice in following the Christ?

[redhotmagma]

I think J. Preston Eby has a little ditty about throwing a life preserver to a dead man.  It does no good.  (IF anyone knows that and can post it that would be great, it may not be Eby)

Anyway until the light calls into the darkness like Jesus calling to Lazarus, we can do nothing.  The verse "the dead know nothing" speaks of this IMO.  The verses that speak of our inability to come to Him speak to this.  I believe we have no will to choose Him. 

BUT

Once we are made alive, through His faith, I believe we have a will to choose. 

[Lazarus Short]

Would that imply that there is no use witnessing to the lost?

[redhotmagma]

No Laz, as that may be the vehicle through which the voice calls into darkness.  To some it may be a divine revelation, or vision.  But you can witness and witness, till you are blue in the face, but if the HS isn't calling that person from darkness it will be no good. 

[micah7:9]

Would that imply that there is no use witnessing to the lost?

For me the only reason for me to witness to the "lost" would be that the Lord chose me to witness with what revelation He has given me for that purpose. Without Him choosing or sending me I don't believe I would have a witness to offer. Just my understanding. :HeartThrob:

"No Laz, as that may be the vehicle through which the voice calls into darkness.  To some it may be a divine revelation, or vision.  But you can witness and witness, till you are blue in the face, but if the HS isn't calling that person from darkness it will be no good."

GLORY! AMEN and Oh how I love Jesus! :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

I think God uses contast all the time. Light and darkness is the basic distinction, but it gets refined into more complex levels as the discernment required to perceive the light from the darkness grows more intense.

Saul and David - Saul, chosen but doomed because of rebellion.....David chosen and forgiven his rebellion because of his love and devotion to the house of God.......

More and more subtle, shades of mist and rays of light....."For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart"

OK, what about Saul and David.  "Saul, chosen but doomed because of rebellion.....David chosen and forgiven his rebellion because of his love and devotion to the house of God."  Perhaps not all who are chosen come.  Perhaps the chosen ones may use their right of refusal, their ability to choose, their co-called "freewill" (whether it's really free or not) (please lets not debate freewill again) to rebel and NOT follow the Christ.  Does that not seem to be the case with Saul?  Consider the two Sauls.  One rebelled against God, the other (Paul) repented and followed the Christ.  Or does God call some, but then NOT give them faith, NOT give them a will to follow him, NOT draw them to himself?

[eaglesway]

God is drawing all things to Himself. Some will come the easy way(narrow is the road that leads to life and few find it). Some will come the hard way(wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are on it). :o)

[micah7:9]

When the Father draws/drags you to Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World, you will come and you will KNOW that you did not have a choice in the matter. I don't think this thing about the called or chosen believers or non-believers, has a thing to do with it, although I know that many are called and few are chosen, but when He calls you, you WILL come and should He chose you, you WILL come. Either way you will come and you can bet(if you do) that you WILL COME. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

When the roll is called up yonder I'll be there. :o) Nevertheless, YHWH Himself will not strive with man forever. (Praise God for that!)

Genesis 6:3   Psalms 103:9  Psalm 46:10

[dajomaco]

Have you ever camped near a river.
Then had to carry a 5 gallon open bucket of water back to the camp site.
It's heavy and hard work.   

Then some one comes walking down the path on his way to get a drink.
He stops at your camp site and you offer him a glass of water.

That is what the church that I attended did.
we trained one night a week for six weeks on how to witness.
This is the Bucket.

We got way more people attending church.
This is the camp site.

We made it easier for people to get a drink without having to go to the River.
Jesus is the river.

IMO don't tell any one where the river is or how to get there.
But if some one asks you ,tell them the truth .
Some times I just can't help my self and go on and on about the river.
People Love finding the River . They do not want me running around bragging
about how I gave them directions.

[micah7:9]

Have you ever camped near a river.
Then had to carry a 5 gallon open bucket of water back to the camp site.
It's heavy and hard work.   

Then some one comes walking down the path on his way to get a drink.
He stops at your camp site and you offer him a glass of water.

That is what the church that I attended did.
we trained one night a week for six weeks on how to witness.
This is the Bucket.

We got way more people attending church.
This is the camp site.

We made it easier for people to get a drink without having to go to the River.
Jesus is the river.

IMO don't tell any one where the river is or how to get there.
But if some one asks you ,tell them the truth .
Some times I just can't help my self and go on and on about the river.
People Love finding the River . They do not want me running around bragging
about how I gave them directions.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny: :iagree:

[marie glen]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Eph 1:4
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

I am struggling with the issue of election, calling, predestination, or whatever you call it.  If no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, and if he chose them even before the foundation of the world, then why does the scripture say over and over that all who believe will be saved - as if all people have a choice.  Gary Amirault says we do not choose him, he chooses us - and the scriptures certainly say just that.  If election, or predestination, or whatever you call it, was already determined for each person way ahead of time, what is the purpose in telling us that if we believe we will receive eonian life?  I know the scriptures don't exactly tell us that we have a choice or "free will" in the matter, but Paul urges early Christians to do their best to follow God's precepts, to remain steadfast - like they had a choice.  But if we really have a choice, then why were the "called" called before they were born, and why are only they drawn?  Are the scriptural terms - election, calling, drawing, choosing, and predestination - the same thing?

Those are some great questions which I'm sure many have wondered.. I used to long ago think it was all about choice, but after years of reading the Bible, not any more.

I see this whole straying from God as a drama and narrative. A learning experience, one which obviously is very important, foundational, it seems to me.

If you have a drama, there has to be different characters.. I won't say 'good' guys, and 'bad' guys, although I could and it describes a good drama! (won't actually say it because obviously we're all 'bad' guys, so to speak).

So in this drama God is directing and producing, some are called to realize salvation/redemption, during this life, and some not. Remember how Jesus told the pharisees that if they didn't repent, they would "die in their sins"? Many take this to mean, end of story, all hope lost! but I think what it actually means is that for a while anyway, the 2nd resurrection is very much inferior to the 1st resurrection, or that is to be raised still in your sins/imperfection, is not as joyful, etc, as what we know the 1st resurrection to be.

What occurs after the 2nd resurrection? It's all painted with a very slim brush, but I believe the Great White Throne Judgment to be a 'day' of 500 years. (This has to do with the ancient Holy Days, if the spring ones were fulfilled by Messiah's 1st advent, then it seems reasonable the fall ones will be fulfilled by the long 2nd advent.. the 3 peaks of corresponding to the 3 Autumn Holy days, between "Trumpets" and "Day of Atonement" (DOA) is 10 days, corressponding to the 1000 yr millenium, and there is 5 days between DOA -- Dead, still in sins for the 2nd resurrection, On Arrival, but not after that day!! :HeartThrob: -- and "Tabernacles the 3rd Fall Holy Day. The 5 days like the 10 corresponding to years 500. ...I.E - 10+00 --- 5+00; in this way the Holy Days describe UR, i did a post on this which i've yet to get back to.

Because, I'm thinking 'Judgment Day' will be a day of intense review and the examination of all human history (as to what went wrong, etc) so I think it must be a very long day (500 yrs!!)

Even if it doesn't last 500 years, still, just think, the notorious words "those not believing will go to the LOF" do not come up until the close of that day (of judgment/examination/review).. Now, imagine if you or I were part of the 2nd resurrection. We have experienced being resurrected from the dust of the grave, and, we have witnessed a long day of the examining / judging of all things, history, etc. Are we really, still, not going to "believe"?

Isn't that what it takes to have one's name written in the "Book of Life"? to believe? I think most after being resurrected/waking up from their dusty grave, will "believe" let alone after witnessing and living through "judgment Day" - which to me makes it Surprise! Atonement Day.. :banana: :dsunny: After which, or once it is concluded, the Father, Yahweh Himself and His Throne will come to the earth and God will "Tabernacle" 3rd Fall Holy day (dwell) with mankind! :banana: :dsunny: and be all in all..

[marie glen]

1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

...and, "After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.. ..The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.. ..that God may be all in all." from 24-28 amplified version..

Christ resurrected/first-fruit, like the Holy Day"first-fruits" - then 1st resurrection at His coming/presence, the beginning of His long 2nd advent.. then comes the completion, which it seems to me would include the 2nd resurrection of rev 20:11-15 & then 21:5, emphasis all..

[marie glen]

Limited will, many called and few chosen (to rule with Christ over the many). All will do God's will sooner or later.  :thumbsup:

:iagree: many said it but this was very brief and to the point :))  or, "Limited will, many called and few chosen" (to believe in this life and help to restore paradise during the millenium, and what role during long judgement day, idk). "All will do God's will sooner or later." :iagree:

[marie glen]

All will "believe" - 2nd resurrection ='s DOA, dead on arrival, aka, still in sins, but!!

The missing Key = DOA = Day Of Atonement - 2nd peak of the Autumn Holy Days

iF, the Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by the 1st advent, why not the long 2nd advent by the Autumn Holy Days? - "Trumpets" His return - "Day Of Atonement" + "Tabernacles" (God will "Tabernacle" with man, Rev 21)

3 peaks of Fall Holy Days
3 peaks of the long 2nd advent (return,judgment day,God will tabernacle w/ man-aka,completion)
by the end of 'judgment day' - aLL will "believe"/have their names in the BOok of Life.

imo, the ancient holy days of Israel describe UR

[marie glen]

..i think all 12 tribes are listed in Nehemiah after the return to the land after captivity.. when Cyrus (Ezra 1:2) said let all Israel in all my lands - go home - I believe the extent of his kingdom included Assyria, to which the northern tribes had been led captive. The Jewish folks seem to still be very cohesive.

Israel and Jacob  :smile: I think represents the more spiritual vs the less so?

all of us believers, every single believer/writer/teacher of the faith, no matter how good or inspiring, and group, imo, has some things wrong..

[eaglesway]

All will "believe" - 2nd resurrection ='s DOA, dead on arrival, aka, still in sins, but!!

The missing Key = DOA = Day Of Atonement - 2nd peak of the Autumn Holy Days

iF, the Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by the 1st advent, why not the long 2nd advent by the Autumn Holy Days? - "Trumpets" His return - "Day Of Atonement" + "Tabernacles" (God will "Tabernacle" with man, Rev 21)

3 peaks of Fall Holy Days
3 peaks of the long 2nd advent (return,judgment day,God will tabernacle w/ man-aka,completion)
by the end of 'judgment day' - aLL will "believe"/have their names in the BOok of Life.

imo, the ancient holy days of Israel describe UR

cool