John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Eph 1:4
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
I am struggling with the issue of election, calling, predestination, or whatever you call it. If no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, and if he chose them even before the foundation of the world, then why does the scripture say over and over that all who believe will be saved - as if all people have a choice. Gary Amirault says we do not choose him, he chooses us - and the scriptures certainly say just that. If election, or predestination, or whatever you call it, was already determined for each person way ahead of time, what is the purpose in telling us that if we believe we will receive eonian life? I know the scriptures don't exactly tell us that we have a choice or "free will" in the matter, but Paul urges early Christians to do their best to follow God's precepts, to remain steadfast - like they had a choice. But if we really have a choice, then why were the "called" called before they were born, and why are only they drawn? Are the scriptural terms - election, calling, drawing, choosing, and predestination - the same thing?
Openin up another can a worms eh? ;o) HAHA
There will be as many different answers as the questions your mind has raised :o)
I say, We see through a glass darkly, and His ways are higher than our ways.
1)If we ignore His word and its warnings a promises we are fools, for we are not God and we do not know the end from the beginning.
2)If we think we have done any deserving thing ourselves, we are also fools, and do not realize that, "It is God who is in us to will and to work of His good pleasure".
3)If we can not accept the paradox, and choose to invalidate one portion of the word agaisnt the other, we are bigger fools, having decided that we understand better than He what He wrote and why.
Better to humble oneself and say, "Well this is how I seeit- but I do not hav all the evidence yet......let us wait until we know as we are known to pull out the sword of minutae out and try to slay one another with it! :rolllol:
My view is that from God we came (made in His Image) and to God we return. And that is predestination.
But the results of what happens while we get there are not predestined as such (although He knows the results)
We will only get there by God's grace.
Peace.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 08, 2013, 11:50:00 PM
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Eph 1:4
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
I am struggling with the issue of election, calling, predestination, or whatever you call it. If no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, and if he chose them even before the foundation of the world, then why does the scripture say over and over that all who believe will be saved - as if all people have a choice. Gary Amirault says we do not choose him, he chooses us - and the scriptures certainly say just that. If election, or predestination, or whatever you call it, was already determined for each person way ahead of time, what is the purpose in telling us that if we believe we will receive eonian life? I know the scriptures don't exactly tell us that we have a choice or "free will" in the matter, but Paul urges early Christians to do their best to follow God's precepts, to remain steadfast - like they had a choice. But if we really have a choice, then why were the "called" called before they were born, and why are only they drawn? Are the scriptural terms - election, calling, drawing, choosing, and predestination - the same thing?
Re read and consider and then re read your query. Also KNOW that choice is not an option for our part. :dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on July 09, 2013, 12:58:52 AM
My view is that from God we came (made in His Image) and to God we return. And that is predestination.
But the results of what happens while we get there are not predestined as such (although He knows the results)
We will only get there by God's grace.
Peace.
:iagree:
Explain... please......"But the results of what happens while we get there are not predestined as such (although He knows the results) Lastpost or EW cause you agreed.
Well, I hesitate t begin, because we hav been there s often- and I kno we disagree most of the time on this LOL ;o)
I dont believe every thought or motion in a man or a woman is controled. Or, let me say, do not belief predestination involves control so much as governing the flow of events like a river, within which there is much(even ever-increasing) freedom.
The way I see it we are all growing in the perfect law of liberty, the glorious liberty of the children of God.
When God is all in all, all will be like the "rushing of many waters, the voices of ten thousands of ten thousands praising God".
I believe in drawing not forcing, winning not conquering- an immense, vast, infinite Father intimately involved, but not overbearing.
Everydrop will end up in the sea of the I AM.
Example: Example: A man who visits prostitutes can overcome the temptation or fail to overcome the temptation and continue with the immorality. If he overcomes the temptation then the result is different to if he did not overcome the temptation. Regardless, God has ordained that he will return to Perfection
:iagree:
The question was, "Do we have a choice in following the Christ?."
And was then backed with John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
How can man have a choice in following Christ when Jesus said, "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS...." The choice is not in the hands of man.
Joh 15:16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Now one might say that Jesus was addressing those disciples at that time, for me, those same words would be valid since "No one can come to me UNLESS...." so "Ye did not chose me, but I chose you...."
How can any person say that they "chose" to follow the Christ?
If the choice was up to me, I believe I would still be kicking the idea around in my head. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
This comes to my mind: Strive and do your very best, but the outcome belongs to God. The striving and the faith are gifts of God, just as much as the salvation and transformation.
Very well put Laz.
I feel that there is no way we can say no to Christ, only if you're the richest man in the world, maybe, but even so...
Quote from: Eduard on July 09, 2013, 05:15:05 PM
Very well put Laz.
I feel that there is no way we can say no to Christ, only if you're the richest man in the world, maybe, but even so...
I agree with, "... there is no way we can say no to Christ..." :dsunny:
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
After I started this thread, I was reading in Dr Stephen Jones' book, Daniel's Seventy Weeks. Dr Jones teaches that there are two varieties of believers: (1) the called-out ones who overcome the flesh and go preach to the uttermost parts of the earth, and (2) the rest of the believers who hear the Word. The called-out ones are the overcomers. They are "Israel." Then he distinguishes the overcomers from the other believers in the uttermost parts of the earth who hear the called ones and believe. They are the believers. They are "Judah."
To summarize Dr Jones' teaching:
Two types of believers:
(1) overcomers, "Israel"
(2) other believers, "Judah"
There is great significance in the symbolism here, in referring to them as Israel and Judah. After Solomon's reign, the Kingdom of Israel divided into two kingdoms: Ephraim and Manasseh formed the Northern Kingdom and continued to be called "Israel." Judah and the rest of the tribes formed the Southern Kingdom and their name was changed to "Judah." Israel never returned to their homeland after their captivity in Syria and was literally scattered over the face of the earth. They initially migrated north and west into Asia minor and Europe, and eventually America and other parts of the earth. In general, we in Europe and America are descended from, at least in part, those Israelites (among others), those tribes descended from Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. The point is they spread out across the face of the earth, even to the "uttermost parts of the earth." That is why they symbolize the called-out ones who overcome and go to the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the gospel. Judah eventually returned to their homeland after their captivity in Babylon. Jesus was born of the lineage of Judah, and preached to the nation of Judah, the actual "Jews." Only a few of them received the Truth, and so they are the ones to whom the Word was initially taken, and only a few had the "ears to hear," and became believers.
Dr Jones explains it much better than I, and you can read it online free. It is found in chapter 8, "The Identity of Israel." You can find it here: http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/daniels-seventy-weeks/chapter-8-the-identity-of-israel/ (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/daniels-seventy-weeks/chapter-8-the-identity-of-israel/)
All of this to say that, if Dr Jones teaching is sound, then that would answer my question in my original post. However, I am still studying and questioning this. It is not my intention to restart yet another discussion about predestination. :eek: No. I do not want to open up another one of those cans of worms. Frankly, I have dyslexia and cannot read through those long-winded, heated debates anyway. My questions are genuinely my ponderings.
John, I have the utmost respect for pastor Jones, and have, and have read some of his books. The Israel & Judah illustration is fine for illustration, but remember that most of Judah never returned to Canaan either. Some of them went to the ends of the earth, just like the other tribes of Israel. In particular, the Jutes are of the tribe of Judah, and their descendants still live in England and in Jutland.
Getting back to the question of the thread: do we have a choice in following the Christ? Yes, we have some latitude to say "no," but in the end He prevails. What other outcome would anyone expect?
Well, I guess my latest question is: Are there really two different types of believers?
(1) called-out overcomers
(2) hearer-believers
Thus, do the overcomers who were predestined to follow the Christ have a choice, or was it chosen for them - and they follow?
And, do the other people who heard the gospel, and believed, have a choice as to whether to follow the Christ?
Or is it that ALL believers are predestined from before the creation to follow the Christ? If so, then there is no distinction between types of believers.
The way the scriptures are worded in so many passages, it certainly seems like we have a choice. But do all people have a choice? Did the apostle Paul have a choice? If so, was he free to chose how much he would submit to the will of God? He certainly talked like he did. He spoke of self-discipline in order to finish the race in hope of gaining the prize set before him - like if he made poor choices, he might miss the prize. He encouraged the believers to remain steadfast. He spoke as though they had some degree of freedom-of-choice in the matter of following the Christ. Did the Pharaoh of the Exodus have a choice? Scripture says God "hardened his heart." That doesn't sound like he had a choice to me. It sounds like he was used by God in a very different way from Paul. Could Pharaoh have chosen to believe and repent?
In the scriptures we are told that we don't choose God - he chooses us. But may we still choose to believe unto eonian life if God does not choose us? :dontknow:
Sooner or later, it begins to sound like a chicken and egg problem. We will not see it in its fullness on this side of the veil. We choose, and we think we did it, but faith tells us God did it. I know from my own awakening that it happened without me "deciding" to follow God and His Ways, for I turned from my life as a confident atheist with the guidance of people who helped. I'm sure God put them in my path.
Act 9:3 But on the journey, as he was getting near Damascus, suddenly there flashed round him a light from Heaven;
Act 9:4 and falling to the ground he heard a voice which said to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
Act 9:5 "Who art thou, Lord?" he asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," was the reply.
Act 9:6 "But rise and go to the city, and you will be told what you are to do.
I do not see a choice. When the Father desires you, has a need for you, your choice is zilch. We only chose, until we are CHOSEN, and we didn't make that choice. Oh how I love Jesus! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Limited will, many called and few chosen (to rule with Christ over the many). All will do God's will sooner or later. :thumbsup:
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love[c] 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.
Two guys are sitting in a bar having a beer.
One guy believes he is Holy and blameless.
Which one does God see as Holy and blameless?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 09, 2013, 04:26:31 PM
This comes to my mind: Strive and do your very best, but the outcome belongs to God. The striving and the faith are gifts of God, just as much as the salvation and transformation.
:iagree:
Where did any of the prophets choose to become prophets?
Abraham was told where to go and when to go.
All of the disciples were chosen.
Were any of them dumb or useless?
No!!
God has a specific plan. We have this concept displayed for us when we go to do something and plan all the details.
God is a way better planner than us and has deliberately appointed some to know the truth that sets us free just to demonstratee that it is His provision, not our efforts.So that we will be equal in His sight because of the complete works of Christ. HENCE JOINT HEIRS WITH jESUS AS SONS/DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING, LOVING GOD OF ALL.
So...
Perhaps it would be beneficial to modified the question at this point:
Are there certain believers who were called, and did not have a choice, who, by gift from God, were bent on following the Christ?
And certain other believers who heard the gospel and chose to follow, some more closely than others? (not the God does not draw them all)
After all, I could choose to study my bible today, or I could choose to "study" something immoral on internet.
Or perhaps, if I choose the internet option, it was God's will that I fall. To teach me some lesson. So therefore, I really did not choose.
But we do seem to have some choice.
This just gets deeper and deeper.
Are there really two types of believers?
I have become aware lately of how spiritual things seem to me to come in pairs:
the 2 witnesses
male and female
the Father and the Son
Christ and his bride
Judah and Israel
the Jews and the Gentiles
the 2 comings of the Christ
good and evil
Jacob and Esau
Cain and Abel
Rebecca and Hagar
David and Saul
fire and brimstone
the water and the blood
the believing and unbelieving thieves at the cross
the greater light to rule the day and the lesser to rule the night
the 2 stories of the creation in Genesis
the 2 testaments
the 2 covenants
the 2 resurrections
the first death and the second death
mortal life and immortal life
2 types of believers?
Maybe there's nothing to this.
But I have just been seeing this lately.
Pairings. Some opposites, some complementary.
Perhaps you could make such a list with any number?
I think God uses contast all the time. Light and darkness is the basic distinction, but it gets refined into more complex levels as the discernment required to perceive the light from the darkness grows more intense.
Cain and Abel - self righteousness, murder, jealousy
In this contrast we can see almost every root of the hostility that is in the world, including the basic reasons for the crucifixion of Christ and the persecution of the saints by the false religionists of the world.
Jacob and Esau - In my opinion a little more elusive lesson. Not murder in your face. "Jacob I loved- Esau I hated(rejected from the anointing/preisthood)". Both men received the promise of God. Both men loved each other. Both men were flawed. Jacob recognized and highly valued a place in the administration of God- tho he did not yet kno His ways. He wrestled with God for the anointing and was, because of the wound he received in the struggle- changed into Israel, a man who walked with a limp/ broken- fit to be a priest and a patriarch.
Eli and Samuel- Another contrast teaching a more subtle separation of light and darkness. How does a priestly line come to an end? Eli, Obese, unconcerned, at rest in his indifference to the sins of his sons(violators of the priestly covenant/rapists/thieves) and his growing blindness. How does a new priestly line come into being? Right under the feet of the old a son dedicated by his mothers tears and chosen to lead Israel- A hungry little boy ministering unto the Lord hears a voice he does not recognize- not one of his words ever falls to the ground unfullfilled.
Saul and David - Saul, chosen but doomed because of rebellion.....David chosen and forgiven his rebellion because of his love and devotion to the house of God.......
More and more subtle, shades of mist and rays of light....."For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart"
I think J. Preston Eby has a little ditty about throwing a life preserver to a dead man. It does no good. (IF anyone knows that and can post it that would be great, it may not be Eby)
Anyway until the light calls into the darkness like Jesus calling to Lazarus, we can do nothing. The verse "the dead know nothing" speaks of this IMO. The verses that speak of our inability to come to Him speak to this. I believe we have no will to choose Him.
BUT
Once we are made alive, through His faith, I believe we have a will to choose.
Would that imply that there is no use witnessing to the lost?
No Laz, as that may be the vehicle through which the voice calls into darkness. To some it may be a divine revelation, or vision. But you can witness and witness, till you are blue in the face, but if the HS isn't calling that person from darkness it will be no good.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 10, 2013, 07:16:16 PM
Would that imply that there is no use witnessing to the lost?
For me the only reason for me to witness to the "lost" would be that the Lord chose me to witness with what revelation He has given me for that purpose. Without Him choosing or sending me I don't believe I would have a witness to offer. Just my understanding. :HeartThrob:
"No Laz, as that may be the vehicle through which the voice calls into darkness. To some it may be a divine revelation, or vision. But you can witness and witness, till you are blue in the face, but if the HS isn't calling that person from darkness it will be no good."
GLORY! AMEN and Oh how I love Jesus! :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 10, 2013, 06:26:57 PM
I think God uses contast all the time. Light and darkness is the basic distinction, but it gets refined into more complex levels as the discernment required to perceive the light from the darkness grows more intense.
Saul and David - Saul, chosen but doomed because of rebellion.....David chosen and forgiven his rebellion because of his love and devotion to the house of God.......
More and more subtle, shades of mist and rays of light....."For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart"
OK, what about Saul and David. "Saul, chosen but doomed because of rebellion.....David chosen and forgiven his rebellion because of his love and devotion to the house of God." Perhaps not all who are chosen come. Perhaps the chosen ones may use their right of refusal, their ability to choose, their co-called "freewill" (whether it's really free or not) (please lets not debate freewill again) to rebel and NOT follow the Christ. Does that not seem to be the case with Saul? Consider the two Sauls. One rebelled against God, the other (Paul) repented and followed the Christ. Or does God call some, but then NOT give them faith, NOT give them a will to follow him, NOT draw them to himself?
God is drawing all things to Himself. Some will come the easy way(narrow is the road that leads to life and few find it). Some will come the hard way(wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are on it). :o)
When the Father draws/drags you to Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World, you will come and you will KNOW that you did not have a choice in the matter. I don't think this thing about the called or chosen believers or non-believers, has a thing to do with it, although I know that many are called and few are chosen, but when He calls you, you WILL come and should He chose you, you WILL come. Either way you will come and you can bet(if you do) that you WILL COME. :dsunny:
When the roll is called up yonder I'll be there. :o) Nevertheless, YHWH Himself will not strive with man forever. (Praise God for that!)
Genesis 6:3 Psalms 103:9 Psalm 46:10
Have you ever camped near a river.
Then had to carry a 5 gallon open bucket of water back to the camp site.
It's heavy and hard work.
Then some one comes walking down the path on his way to get a drink.
He stops at your camp site and you offer him a glass of water.
That is what the church that I attended did.
we trained one night a week for six weeks on how to witness.
This is the Bucket.
We got way more people attending church.
This is the camp site.
We made it easier for people to get a drink without having to go to the River.
Jesus is the river.
IMO don't tell any one where the river is or how to get there.
But if some one asks you ,tell them the truth .
Some times I just can't help my self and go on and on about the river.
People Love finding the River . They do not want me running around bragging
about how I gave them directions.
Quote from: dajomaco on July 11, 2013, 08:44:51 PM
Have you ever camped near a river.
Then had to carry a 5 gallon open bucket of water back to the camp site.
It's heavy and hard work.
Then some one comes walking down the path on his way to get a drink.
He stops at your camp site and you offer him a glass of water.
That is what the church that I attended did.
we trained one night a week for six weeks on how to witness.
This is the Bucket.
We got way more people attending church.
This is the camp site.
We made it easier for people to get a drink without having to go to the River.
Jesus is the river.
IMO don't tell any one where the river is or how to get there.
But if some one asks you ,tell them the truth .
Some times I just can't help my self and go on and on about the river.
People Love finding the River . They do not want me running around bragging
about how I gave them directions.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny: :iagree:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 08, 2013, 11:50:00 PM
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Eph 1:4
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
I am struggling with the issue of election, calling, predestination, or whatever you call it. If no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, and if he chose them even before the foundation of the world, then why does the scripture say over and over that all who believe will be saved - as if all people have a choice. Gary Amirault says we do not choose him, he chooses us - and the scriptures certainly say just that. If election, or predestination, or whatever you call it, was already determined for each person way ahead of time, what is the purpose in telling us that if we believe we will receive eonian life? I know the scriptures don't exactly tell us that we have a choice or "free will" in the matter, but Paul urges early Christians to do their best to follow God's precepts, to remain steadfast - like they had a choice. But if we really have a choice, then why were the "called" called before they were born, and why are only they drawn? Are the scriptural terms - election, calling, drawing, choosing, and predestination - the same thing?
Those are some great questions which I'm sure many have wondered.. I used to long ago think it was all about choice, but after years of reading the Bible, not any more.
I see this whole straying from God as a drama and narrative. A learning experience, one which obviously is very important, foundational, it seems to me.
If you have a drama, there has to be different characters.. I won't say 'good' guys, and 'bad' guys, although I could and it describes a good drama! (won't actually say it because obviously we're all 'bad' guys, so to speak).
So in this drama God is directing and producing, some are called to realize salvation/redemption, during this life, and some not. Remember how Jesus told the pharisees that if they didn't repent, they would "die in their sins"? Many take this to mean, end of story, all hope lost! but I think what it actually means is that for a while anyway, the 2nd resurrection is very much inferior to the 1st resurrection, or that is to be raised still in your sins/imperfection, is not as joyful, etc, as what we know the 1st resurrection to be.
What occurs after the 2nd resurrection? It's all painted with a very slim brush, but I believe the Great White Throne Judgment to be a 'day' of 500 years. (This has to do with the ancient Holy Days, if the spring ones were fulfilled by Messiah's 1st advent, then it seems reasonable the fall ones will be fulfilled by the long 2nd advent.. the 3 peaks of corresponding to the 3 Autumn Holy days, between "Trumpets" and "Day of Atonement" (DOA) is 10 days, corressponding to the 1000 yr millenium, and there is 5 days between DOA -- Dead, still in sins for the 2nd resurrection, On Arrival, but not after that day!! :HeartThrob: -- and "Tabernacles the 3rd Fall Holy Day. The 5 days like the 10 corresponding to years 500. ...I.E - 10+00 --- 5+00; in this way the Holy Days describe UR, i did a post on this which i've yet to get back to.
Because, I'm thinking 'Judgment Day' will be a day of intense review and the examination of all human history (as to what went wrong, etc) so I think it must be a very long day (500 yrs!!)
Even if it doesn't last 500 years, still, just think, the notorious words "those not believing will go to the LOF" do not come up until the close of that day (of judgment/examination/review).. Now, imagine if you or I were part of the 2nd resurrection. We have experienced being resurrected from the dust of the grave, and, we have witnessed a long day of the examining / judging of all things, history, etc. Are we really, still, not going to "believe"?
Isn't that what it takes to have one's name written in the "Book of Life"? to believe? I think most after being resurrected/waking up from their dusty grave, will "believe" let alone after witnessing and living through "judgment Day" - which to me makes it Surprise! Atonement Day.. :banana: :dsunny: After which, or once it is concluded, the Father, Yahweh Himself and His Throne will come to the earth and God will "Tabernacle" 3rd Fall Holy day (dwell) with mankind! :banana: :dsunny: and be all in all..
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 09, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
...and, "After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.. ..The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.. ..that God may be all in all." from 24-28 amplified version..
Christ resurrected/first-fruit, like the Holy Day"first-fruits" - then 1st resurrection at His coming/presence, the beginning of His long 2nd advent.. then comes the completion, which it seems to me would include the 2nd resurrection of rev 20:11-15 & then 21:5, emphasis
all..
Quote from: Eduard on July 10, 2013, 03:49:35 AM
Limited will, many called and few chosen (to rule with Christ over the many). All will do God's will sooner or later. :thumbsup:
:iagree: many said it but this was very brief and to the point :)) or, "Limited will, many called and few chosen" (to believe in this life and help to restore paradise during the millenium, and what role during long judgement day, idk). "All will do God's will sooner or later." :iagree:
All will "believe" - 2nd resurrection ='s DOA, dead on arrival, aka, still in sins, but!!
The missing Key = DOA = Day Of Atonement - 2nd peak of the Autumn Holy Days
iF, the Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by the 1st advent, why not the long 2nd advent by the Autumn Holy Days? - "Trumpets" His return - "Day Of Atonement" + "Tabernacles" (God will "Tabernacle" with man, Rev 21)
3 peaks of Fall Holy Days
3 peaks of the long 2nd advent (return,judgment day,God will tabernacle w/ man-aka,completion)
by the end of 'judgment day' - aLL will "believe"/have their names in the BOok of Life.
imo, the ancient holy days of Israel describe UR
..i think all 12 tribes are listed in Nehemiah after the return to the land after captivity.. when Cyrus (Ezra 1:2) said let all Israel in all my lands - go home - I believe the extent of his kingdom included Assyria, to which the northern tribes had been led captive. The Jewish folks seem to still be very cohesive.
Israel and Jacob :smile: I think represents the more spiritual vs the less so?
all of us believers, every single believer/writer/teacher of the faith, no matter how good or inspiring, and group, imo, has some things wrong..
Quote from: marie glen on July 12, 2013, 01:27:29 AM
All will "believe" - 2nd resurrection ='s DOA, dead on arrival, aka, still in sins, but!!
The missing Key = DOA = Day Of Atonement - 2nd peak of the Autumn Holy Days
iF, the Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by the 1st advent, why not the long 2nd advent by the Autumn Holy Days? - "Trumpets" His return - "Day Of Atonement" + "Tabernacles" (God will "Tabernacle" with man, Rev 21)
3 peaks of Fall Holy Days
3 peaks of the long 2nd advent (return,judgment day,God will tabernacle w/ man-aka,completion)
by the end of 'judgment day' - aLL will "believe"/have their names in the BOok of Life.
imo, the ancient holy days of Israel describe UR
cool