Do we have a choice in following the Christ?

[jbertonbounds]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Eph 1:4
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

I am struggling with the issue of election, calling, predestination, or whatever you call it.  If no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, and if he chose them even before the foundation of the world, then why does the scripture say over and over that all who believe will be saved - as if all people have a choice.  Gary Amirault says we do not choose him, he chooses us - and the scriptures certainly say just that.  If election, or predestination, or whatever you call it, was already determined for each person way ahead of time, what is the purpose in telling us that if we believe we will receive eonian life?  I know the scriptures don't exactly tell us that we have a choice or "free will" in the matter, but Paul urges early Christians to do their best to follow God's precepts, to remain steadfast - like they had a choice.  But if we really have a choice, then why were the "called" called before they were born, and why are only they drawn?  Are the scriptural terms - election, calling, drawing, choosing, and predestination - the same thing?

[eaglesway]

Openin up another can a worms eh? ;o) HAHA

There will be as many different answers as the questions your mind has raised :o)

I say, We see through a glass darkly, and His ways are higher than our ways.

1)If we ignore His word and its warnings a promises we are fools, for we are not God and we do not know the end from the beginning.

2)If we think we have done any deserving thing ourselves, we are also fools, and do not realize that, "It is God who is in us to will and to work of His good pleasure".

3)If we can not accept the paradox, and choose to invalidate one portion of the word agaisnt the other, we are bigger fools, having decided that we understand better than He what He wrote and why.

Better to humble oneself and say, "Well this is how I seeit- but I do not hav all the evidence yet......let us wait until we know as we are known to pull  out the sword of minutae out and try to slay one another with it! :rolllol:

[lastpost]

My view is that from God we came (made in His Image) and to God we return. And that is predestination.

But the results of what happens while we get there are not predestined as such (although He knows the results)

We will only get there by God's grace.

Peace.

[micah7:9]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Eph 1:4
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

I am struggling with the issue of election, calling, predestination, or whatever you call it.  If no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, and if he chose them even before the foundation of the world, then why does the scripture say over and over that all who believe will be saved - as if all people have a choice.  Gary Amirault says we do not choose him, he chooses us - and the scriptures certainly say just that.  If election, or predestination, or whatever you call it, was already determined for each person way ahead of time, what is the purpose in telling us that if we believe we will receive eonian life?  I know the scriptures don't exactly tell us that we have a choice or "free will" in the matter, but Paul urges early Christians to do their best to follow God's precepts, to remain steadfast - like they had a choice.  But if we really have a choice, then why were the "called" called before they were born, and why are only they drawn?  Are the scriptural terms - election, calling, drawing, choosing, and predestination - the same thing?

Re read and consider and then re read your query. Also KNOW that choice is not an option for our part.  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

My view is that from God we came (made in His Image) and to God we return. And that is predestination.

But the results of what happens while we get there are not predestined as such (although He knows the results)

We will only get there by God's grace.

Peace.

:iagree:

[micah7:9]

Explain... please......"But the results of what happens while we get there are not predestined as such (although He knows the results) Lastpost or EW cause you agreed.

[eaglesway]

Well, I hesitate t begin, because we hav been there s often- and I kno we disagree most of the time on this LOL ;o)

I dont believe every thought or motion in a man or a woman is controled. Or, let me say,  do not belief predestination involves control so much as governing the flow of events like a river, within which there is much(even ever-increasing) freedom.

The way I see it we are all growing in the perfect law of liberty, the glorious liberty of the children of God.

When God is all in all, all will be like the "rushing of many waters, the voices of ten thousands of ten thousands praising God".

I believe in drawing not forcing, winning not conquering- an immense, vast, infinite Father intimately involved, but not overbearing.

Everydrop will end up in the sea of the I AM.

[lastpost]

Example: Example: A man who visits prostitutes can overcome the temptation or fail to overcome the temptation and continue with the immorality. If he overcomes the temptation then the result is different to if he did not overcome the temptation. Regardless, God has ordained that he will return to Perfection

[micah7:9]

 :iagree:

[micah7:9]

The question was, "Do we have a choice in following the Christ?."

And was then backed with John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

How can man have a choice in following Christ when Jesus said, "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS...." The choice is not in the hands of man.

Joh 15:16  Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Now one might say that Jesus was addressing those disciples at that time, for me, those same words would be valid since "No one can come to me UNLESS...." so "Ye did not chose me, but I chose you...."

How can any person say that they "chose" to follow the Christ?
If the choice was up to me, I believe I would still be kicking the idea around in my head. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

This comes to my mind:  Strive and do your very best, but the outcome belongs to God.  The striving and the faith are gifts of God, just as much as the salvation and transformation.

[Eduard]

Very well put Laz.

I feel that there is no way we can say no to Christ, only if you're the richest man in the world, maybe, but even so...

[micah7:9]

Very well put Laz.

I feel that there is no way we can say no to Christ, only if you're the richest man in the world, maybe, but even so...

I agree with, "... there is no way we can say no to Christ..." :dsunny:

1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

[jbertonbounds]

After I started this thread, I was reading in Dr Stephen Jones' book, Daniel's Seventy Weeks.  Dr Jones teaches that there are two varieties of believers: (1) the called-out ones who overcome the flesh and go preach to the uttermost parts of the earth, and (2) the rest of the believers who hear the Word.  The called-out ones are the overcomers.  They are "Israel."  Then he distinguishes the overcomers from the other believers in the uttermost parts of the earth who hear the called ones and believe.  They are the believers.  They are "Judah."

To summarize Dr Jones' teaching:
Two types of believers:
(1) overcomers, "Israel"
(2) other believers, "Judah"

There is great significance in the symbolism here, in referring to them as Israel and Judah.  After Solomon's reign, the Kingdom of Israel divided into two kingdoms:  Ephraim and Manasseh formed the Northern Kingdom and continued to be called "Israel."  Judah and the rest of the tribes formed the Southern Kingdom and their name was changed to "Judah."  Israel never returned to their homeland after their captivity in Syria and was literally scattered over the face of the earth.  They initially migrated north and west into Asia minor and Europe, and eventually America and other parts of the earth.  In general, we in Europe and America are descended from, at least in part, those Israelites (among others), those tribes descended from Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh.  The point is they spread out across the face of the earth, even to the "uttermost parts of the earth."  That is why they symbolize the called-out ones who overcome and go to the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the gospel.  Judah eventually returned to their homeland after their captivity in Babylon.  Jesus was born of the lineage of Judah, and preached to the nation of Judah, the actual "Jews."  Only a few of them received the Truth, and so they are the ones to whom the Word was initially taken, and only a few had the "ears to hear," and became believers. 

Dr Jones explains it much better than I, and you can read it online free.  It is found in chapter 8, "The Identity of Israel."  You can find it here: http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/daniels-seventy-weeks/chapter-8-the-identity-of-israel/

All of this to say that, if Dr Jones teaching is sound, then that would answer my question in my original post.  However, I am still studying and questioning this.  It is not my intention to restart yet another discussion about predestination.  :eek:  No.  I do not want to open up another one of those cans of worms.  Frankly, I have dyslexia and cannot read through those long-winded, heated debates anyway.  My questions are genuinely my ponderings. 

[Lazarus Short]

John, I have the utmost respect for pastor Jones, and have, and have read some of his books.  The Israel & Judah illustration is fine for illustration, but remember that most of Judah never returned to Canaan either.  Some of them went to the ends of the earth, just like the other tribes of Israel.  In particular, the Jutes are of the tribe of Judah, and their descendants still live in England and in Jutland.

Getting back to the question of the thread:  do we have a choice in following the Christ?  Yes, we have some latitude to say "no," but in the end He prevails.  What other outcome would anyone expect?

[jbertonbounds]

Well, I guess my latest question is: Are there really two different types of believers?
(1) called-out overcomers
(2) hearer-believers

Thus, do the overcomers who were predestined to follow the Christ have a choice, or was it chosen for them - and they follow?
And, do the other people who heard the gospel, and believed, have a choice as to whether to follow the Christ?

Or is it that ALL believers are predestined from before the creation to follow the Christ?  If so, then there is no distinction between types of believers.

The way the scriptures are worded in so many passages, it certainly seems like we have a choice.  But do all people have a choice?  Did the apostle Paul have a choice?  If so, was he free to chose how much he would submit to the will of God?  He certainly talked like he did.  He spoke of self-discipline in order to finish the race in hope of gaining the prize set before him - like if he made poor choices, he might miss the prize.  He encouraged the believers to remain steadfast.  He spoke as though they had some degree of freedom-of-choice in the matter of following the Christ.  Did the Pharaoh of the Exodus have a choice?  Scripture says God "hardened his heart."  That doesn't sound like he had a choice to me.  It sounds like he was used by God in a very different way from Paul.  Could Pharaoh have chosen to believe and repent? 

In the scriptures we are told that we don't choose God - he chooses us.  But may we still choose to believe unto eonian life if God does not choose us? :dontknow:

[Lazarus Short]

Sooner or later, it begins to sound like a chicken and egg problem.  We will not see it in its fullness on this side of the veil.  We choose, and we think we did it, but faith tells us God did it.  I know from my own awakening that it happened without me "deciding" to follow God and His Ways, for I turned from my life as a confident atheist with the guidance of people who helped.  I'm sure God put them in my path.

[micah7:9]

Act 9:3  But on the journey, as he was getting near Damascus, suddenly there flashed round him a light from Heaven;
Act 9:4  and falling to the ground he heard a voice which said to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
Act 9:5  "Who art thou, Lord?" he asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," was the reply.
Act 9:6  "But rise and go to the city, and you will be told what you are to do.

I do not see a choice. When the Father desires you, has a need for you, your choice is zilch. We only chose, until we are CHOSEN, and we didn't make that choice.  Oh how I love Jesus! :HeartThrob:  :dsunny:

[Eduard]

Limited will, many called and few chosen (to rule with Christ over the many). All will do God's will sooner or later.  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

[dajomaco]

For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love[c] 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.

Two guys are sitting in a bar having a beer.

One guy believes he is Holy and blameless.

Which one does God see as Holy and blameless?

[eaglesway]

 

This comes to my mind:  Strive and do your very best, but the outcome belongs to God.  The striving and the faith are gifts of God, just as much as the salvation and transformation.

:iagree:

[Ross]

Where did any of the prophets choose to become prophets?
Abraham was told where to go and when to go.
All of the disciples were chosen.
Were any of them dumb or useless?
No!!
God has a specific plan. We have this concept displayed for us when we go to do something and plan all the details.
God is a way better planner than us and has deliberately appointed some to know the truth that sets us free just to demonstratee that it is His provision, not our efforts.So that we will be equal in His sight because of the complete works of Christ. HENCE JOINT HEIRS WITH jESUS AS SONS/DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING, LOVING GOD OF ALL.

[jbertonbounds]

So...
Perhaps it would be beneficial to modified the question at this point:

Are there certain believers who were called, and did not have a choice, who, by gift from God, were bent on following the Christ?
And certain other believers who heard the gospel and chose to follow, some more closely than others? (not the God does not draw them all)
After all, I could choose to study my bible today, or I could choose to "study" something immoral on internet. 
Or perhaps, if I choose the internet option, it was God's will that I fall.  To teach me some lesson.  So therefore, I really did not choose.
But we do seem to have some choice.
This just gets deeper and deeper.

Are there really two types of believers?
I have become aware lately of how spiritual things seem to me to come in pairs:
the 2 witnesses
male and female
the Father and the Son
Christ and his bride
Judah and Israel
the Jews and the Gentiles
the 2 comings of the Christ
good and evil
Jacob and Esau
Cain and Abel
Rebecca and Hagar
David and Saul
fire and brimstone
the water and the blood
the believing and unbelieving thieves at the cross
the greater light to rule the day and the lesser to rule the night
the 2 stories of the creation in Genesis
the 2 testaments
the 2 covenants
the 2 resurrections
the first death and the second death
mortal life and immortal life
2 types of believers?

Maybe there's nothing to this.
But I have just been seeing this lately.
Pairings.  Some opposites, some complementary.
Perhaps you could make such a list with any number?

[eaglesway]

I think God uses contast all the time. Light and darkness is the basic distinction, but it gets refined into more complex levels as the discernment required to perceive the light from the darkness grows more intense.

Cain and Abel - self righteousness, murder,  jealousy
In this contrast we can see almost every root of the hostility that is in the world, including the basic reasons for the crucifixion of Christ and the persecution of the saints by the false religionists of the world.

Jacob and Esau - In my opinion a little more elusive lesson. Not murder in your face. "Jacob I loved- Esau I hated(rejected from the anointing/preisthood)". Both men received the promise of God. Both men loved each other. Both men were flawed. Jacob recognized and highly valued a place in the administration of God- tho he did not yet kno His ways. He wrestled with God for the anointing and was, because of the wound he received in the struggle- changed into Israel, a man who walked with a limp/ broken- fit to be a priest and a patriarch.


Eli and Samuel- Another contrast teaching a more subtle separation of light and darkness. How does a priestly line come to an end? Eli, Obese, unconcerned, at rest in his indifference to the sins of his sons(violators of the priestly covenant/rapists/thieves) and his growing blindness. How does a new priestly line come into being? Right under the feet of the old a son dedicated by his mothers tears and chosen to lead Israel- A hungry little boy ministering unto the Lord hears a voice he does not recognize- not one of his words ever falls to the ground unfullfilled.

Saul and David - Saul, chosen but doomed because of rebellion.....David chosen and forgiven his rebellion because of his love and devotion to the house of God.......

More and more subtle, shades of mist and rays of light....."For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart"