Can you enter the kingdom of God if you are unclean.

[rosered]

Someone has made what may seem in some ways/on the surface to be controversial.  The statement was along the lines of, through the work of the cross and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, the spirit is renewed, new creation, sitting in heavenly places.  While sin is quarantined to the flesh.  It doesn't affect the spiritual standing in Christ Jesus, the blood having been applied.

That view would address Paul struggling with his flesh, while his spirit was already sitting in the heavenlies.  Also, perhaps him saying that it was no longer him that did it (sinned), but the "sin that dwells in me.  For I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing".  A bit over my head for full understanding/grasping, but something inspiring to consider/dwell on/explore.   :2c:

I see this as Paul speaking of the flesh and spirit warring together, you know, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? If Paul was in Christ or Christ in Paul, he was in the spirit and not the flesh. When paul did things he didn't want to do it was the fleahly part of him warring against the spirit but since Paul was in the spirit or had Christ dwelling in him, the flesh couldn't overcome the spirit because the spirit was more powerful than the flesh that dwells within us. You might fall for a little bit but the spirit always overcomes the flesh in the end.  That is why when all is said and done the spirit is the winner hands down. Just a little observation for me while reading your post

CHB

Yes , the flesh gets old corrupts decays, diseased  , sick   can never do what it once  could  in its prime ,   for a limited time    sooner or later   and   has an end 
where the Spirit never ends

[Molly]

It helps to have the indwelt Holy Spirit.  The Spirit quickens the flesh, makes it alive.  Maybe someone could meditate on that one and explain it.  Before we are given the Spirit of God, we are dead in our sins.



Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.  Eph 2:1


But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you. [Rom 8:11]


Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:     you are correct Molly the kingdom of God is within you  :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

Someone has made what may seem in some ways/on the surface to be controversial.  The statement was along the lines of, through the work of the cross and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, the spirit is renewed, new creation, sitting in heavenly places.  While sin is quarantined to the flesh.  It doesn't affect the spiritual standing in Christ Jesus, the blood having been applied.

That view would address Paul struggling with his flesh, while his spirit was already sitting in the heavenlies.  Also, perhaps him saying that it was no longer him that did it (sinned), but the "sin that dwells in me.  For I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing".  A bit over my head for full understanding/grasping, but something inspiring to consider/dwell on/explore.   :2c:

I think it is an excellent clarification. The idea of sin being quarantined in the flesh is absolutely right IMO. The "body of the sins of the flesh" having been "buried with Him in baptism" as Peter wrote "the answer of a clear conscience".

In baptism believer were publicly buried, a funeral for the old man who was crucified in Christ- penalty paid, death. Looking back to that blessed event, there is no condemnation as the believer testifies, "All the sins I ever committed or ever will were committed by that same person- that old person, who has been judged, sentence executed through faith in Christ".

That is why paul ends his soliloque on the struggle (sinin the flesh versus the mind that desires to obey)by saying, "Thank God for Jesus Christ....Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who walk according to the spirit and not according to the flesh".

If we are not standing at the grave trying to dig that old man up, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus has already done away with and overcome Him. Our conscience remains clear.

If we take a dive back into the flesh, all we need, to be restored, is confession and repentence- the desire of the heart to be righteous even when the ability may not yet be there- God is forgiving, patient, and willing to work and to wait on our behalf for the victory (would that we were all so gracious with each other) :o)

[jabcat]

 :2thumbs:

I had to loll it around in my mind/heart/spirit for awhile before it "took better hold", but I'm liking it more and more.   :bigGrin:

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:     wonderful John and James
 
remined me also of the footwashing  ,  you all clean  all but your feet , we are to refine To reduce to a pure state; purify. 2. To remove by purifying.  the understanding  that Jesus teaches us to do for one another 
but Jesus set the example of washing one anothers feet 



Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. [Judas heart was occupied by  satan]
Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
    Lexicon Results Strong's G4228 - pous 1) a foot, both of men or beast

a) often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished

b) of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet

so sorry guys I  am simple ,slow and persistant   

  How does the Lord judge no man ?  we all do judge  after the flesh
    but some can discern  the spirits  in mens hearts
Jesus says judge not lest you be judged , sounds to me as if we do bring judgement  on our   ourselves

  Jhn 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son

Jhn 8:15 You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

[Molly]

:thumbsup:     you are correct Molly the kingdom of God is within you  :girlheart:

:thumbsup:

And, amongst you.  Whenever two or three are gathered in his name, he is there.

[eaglesway]

Yea that whole judgment thing can be quite  a quagmire. There are serious translation issues there, since krino, diakrino, krisis, etc are all translated "judgment", "condemnation" without rhyme or reason.

I dont remember which is which right now and even the lexicons are divided on them but one means to "pass sentence"(found guilty), one means to "stand before a tribunal"(as yet neither guilty or innocent) another means "do discern"(objectively examine or identify).

SO, again it seems we cannot get the balance from English translations easily on this, but...

Jesus said, "I judge no man, the word I speak judges". He saidthat the one who does not believe is "condemned already"-death in Adam is the condemnation for all who do not believe- we dont need to condemn them- they are already condemned to death in Adam and walking in it.

We do need to "discern", to objectively, without ourselves invoking condemnation, examine and appraise the spirits and works of men as to whether they are in the spirit of of the flesh- again, "the word of the Lord is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder souls and spirit.....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Also, "entrust yourselves to those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to dicern the difference between good and evil(spirit and flesh).'

How do we know if we are in the flesh or in the spirit? Thats where the Holy Spirit comes in. I have seen people(me included) to the 'right thing' for the wrong reason.

I have seen people do wrong things with good intentions. How do we know these things? By the spirit as we stand in the light of the (heavenly)assembly-IMO the clearest cleanest discernment is available. wherever tow or three of us gather "in His name"(in His person and character), for example.....

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".

When callled upon to discern- it is for the deliverance/healing of the being brought to the light, and anyone called upon to engage in sucha personal administration of the grace of God MUST DO SO IN THE MOST EXTREME REVERENCE. Thes are our offerings to God and if they are mixed with selfish ambition or the desire for recognition or power over people or some sense of personal fulfillment apart from just pleasing God and loving the brethren- then the discerner becomes the discerned, the judge becomes the judged, etc.

I think Jesus really did a pretty simple job of explaining the difference, but translations and religious prejudices hav mucked it up.

If you stand "in the spirit" you are not the discerner/judge. If your discernment/judgment is sanctified by death(dying to any selfish impulses, in complete humility) it is the word that judges as we take a completely "hands off" appraoch to obedience to God in such things.

That is why, IMO, James says, brethren, be not many teachers because as such you will incur stricter judgment.

Jesus did not judge, the words He spoke judged, because He only spoke what He heard from His Father. He disconnected his "self" from the words and walked in "meekness" as one who hears and obeys.

"God has given me the tongue of the discipled so that I might speak a word in season to him that is weary"

A discipled tongue speaks from a discipled heart(from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks) for the purpose of healing. when fire comes out of such a mouth it is not so as to appear a spiritual giant or to declare ones authority, it is to separate the wheat from the chaff, reveal the grain which is to be gathered and thoroughly purge the threshing floor(soul, imo) of the chaff)------

SO THAT IT CAN BE GATHEREDINTO THE BARN.


Praise God!!!!!! We alllll goin to da barn sooner or later ;o)

[rosered]

SO, again it seems we cannot get the balance from English translations easily on this, but...

Jesus said, "I judge no man, the word I speak judges". He saidthat the one who does not believe is "condemned already"-death in Adam is the condemnation for all who do not believe- we dont need to condemn them- they are already condemned to death in Adam and walking in it.

yes indeed , the Truth judges us all   , most are afraid to tell anyone the truth [Jesus Christ is the Truth ]  for fear of seeming self righteous , when said in Love its for the benefit of all concerned
 

   Blessed is he who is not offened in Me [ the Truth ]
 
  the truth pricks your conscience  , Pauls experience
was that   trying to justify himself   and  go against the truth , but we are all  eventually  humbled by the truth when the Holy Spirit pricks our conscience , Paul spoke alot on the concience and how the Holy Spirit  works wonders in that place , its a torment  at first till you realize    how can you be angry   when the truth that is supposed to set you free has bound you up till you repent and change your mind over  it , that what happens to me  anyways  and   it helps  for the better in the end
like chastising or correcting error  of motives and actions

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

[eaglesway]

Jesuse said, "You are entirely clean because of the word that I have spoken to you"

The Word is the seed.

The blood is in the seed of the Father.

Those who have heard His voice are all clean.

"If you continue(abide, dwell) in my word you will know the truth and the truth will set you free"

If we keep listening we stay clean.

"If you walk in the light as He is in the light you will have fellowship(friendship, union and communion, harmony) with one another and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all unrighteousness."

The testimony that we abide in His word is not our "correct doctrine"- it is our degree of fellowship.

"They all as one heart and soul"
"Great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied among them and the Lord added daily to their number the ones apointed for deliverance."

God will add to that which displays the beauty of His love and the Witness will fall upon the acceptable offering- wherever tow or three gather in His name, His love, His spirit.

"This is my prayer, that you may be one even as I and My Father are one, that I am in the Father and the Father in me and I in you- that your Joy be full."

The kingdom of heaven is about- FIRST AND FOREMOST- attitudes, not doctrines.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

TODAY if you hear His voice, harden not your heart...........

Some never leave the wilderness, but Today, while their is Hope- let us enter His rest.

[rosered]

 

  Yes , definitely its our relationship   with the Living God that  keeps us in Him
      He Loved us first , before we even know how to Love God first  ,  if the Sprit of God  is not in you    your very works are dead works  and you never knew Him
   the doctrines of men abuse   those seaching , turning many away in  Jesus name ! its appauling

Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

  you cannot ever love God first , if the Love of God is not in you  in the FIRST place ..
it does take Jesus Christ [His mind , mind of Christ ] obedience  to the very will of God to turn anyone   around 
  the Lord Jesus interceeding for us is the same today as it was for simon [hearing ] its His prayers of faith and strength   that sustains  us all  , than you can love the brethren  in the same strength and  faith that  blesses all , the right attitude !! amen , you said that right , its alll about your  intent and motive in your heart   , Christ put everyone  before himself    a true servers heart being the Son of God , its not about being   high and mighty   , but humbled and serving one another  in the Very Love of God [Spirit &Truth]   those are the living works  of the Living God in you         

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: 


Luk 22:32   But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Have you ever wondered why the Lord   spoke  their name twice ? here we see   Simon , Simon 
  and  also    Saul , Saul and Martha Martha , Jacob , Jacob , abraham , abraham , Samuel , Samuel
  as long as both minds  of the natural/carnal  and spiritual/ mind of Christ    co exist   we can hear His Voice calling our name   though the darkness and in the light    as a servant and a son
Yes Lord !
  Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].


And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel. 


Isa 45:4   For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 

Isa 45:5   I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:  


Isa 45:6   That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.    Isa 45:7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. 


Isa 45:8 ¶ Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 

Isa 45:9 ¶ Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 


Isa 45:10   Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 


Isa 45:11 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 


Isa 45:12   I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 


Isa 45:13   I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.


  I am so sorry if you think I push doctrines  and remain in the wilderness John
   the only docrtine to have is  Gods  that comes are dew drops from heaven on our flesh /grass, this is what Jesus  spoke 

[eaglesway]

rosered...

in no way was I posting to you :o) I dont think that of you at all. I was REALLY just posting to the original thought, concerning being clean- and entering and abiding in the kingdom. Love in Christ, John

[jbertonbounds]

   the only docrtine to have is  Gods  that comes are dew drops from heaven on our flesh /grass, this is what Jesus  spoke

LOVE IT!  :HeartThrob:
This is a beautiful way to see it.
Is this from a particular scripture verse or Psalm?

[rosered]

   the only docrtine to have is  Gods  that comes are dew drops from heaven on our flesh /grass, this is what Jesus  spoke

LOVE IT!  :HeartThrob:
This is a beautiful way to see it.
Is this from a particular scripture verse or Psalm?

  Hi Jbert ,
   Yes ,it is   from two   verses   , if you can see that all flesh is as  grass
  and here Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Isa 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh [is] grass, and all the goodliness thereof [is] as the flower of the field:
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:


  when I said Jesus spoke  it,   Jesus say this is not   his  doctrine   , but the Fathers whom sent Him Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
God bless

[jbertonbounds]

Thanks Rose. :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Thanks Rose. :thumbsup:

Thank   you Jbert , for even asking   God bless  you and yours  :girlheart:

[dajomaco]

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".
I find this passage interesting in the Clean versus Unclean scenario .

We find a brother or sister in a fault,  (clean or unclean?)

those who are spiritual   (clean?)
restore such a one in a spirit of meekness,

considering your own selves lest you should stumble".  (make yourself unclean?)

IMO we are made clean by FAITH in the work of Jesus on the cross.
To restore a brother or sister we must help them to believe that their fault does not separate
them from Christ. The warning at the end of the verse is that we not see a fault,
that is not covered by faith in the blood of Christ 

[rosered]

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".
I find this passage interesting in the Clean versus Unclean scenario .

We find a brother or sister in a fault,  (clean or unclean?)

those who are spiritual   (clean?)
restore such a one in a spirit of meekness,

considering your own selves lest you should stumble".  (make yourself unclean?)

IMO we are made clean by FAITH in the work of Jesus on the cross.
To restore a brother or sister we must help them to believe that their fault does not separate
them from Christ. The warning at the end of the verse is that we not see a fault,
that is not covered by faith in the blood of Christ

:HeartThrob:        You know Brother daj , I believe the truth ! we know Jesus by , the  written , Spoken and Living  WORD , it does make  us free   from sin and death  we are not of this world    , we are His !!!  :dsunny:


Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.  


Jhn 8:20   These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come. 


Jhn 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 


Jhn 8:22   Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 


Jhn 8:23   And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 


Jhn 8:24   I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. 


Jhn 8:25   Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning. 


Jhn 8:26   I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 


Jhn 8:27   They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 


Jhn 8:28   Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.    Jhn 8:29   And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 


Jhn 8:30   As he spake these words, many believed on him. 

Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; 
Jhn 8:32   And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.        :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".

"If you find a brother or sister in a fault, those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves lest you should stumble".
I find this passage interesting in the Clean versus Unclean scenario .

We find a brother or sister in a fault,  (clean or unclean?)

those who are spiritual   (clean?)
restore such a one in a spirit of meekness,

considering your own selves lest you should stumble".  (make yourself unclean?)

IMO we are made clean by FAITH in the work of Jesus on the cross.
To restore a brother or sister we must help them to believe that their fault does not separate
them from Christ. The warning at the end of the verse is that we not see a fault,
that is not covered by faith in the blood of Christ

Sorta looks like one must walk in meekness to be spiritual or clean eh! :o)

[jbertonbounds]

Sorta looks like one must walk in meekness to be spiritual or clean eh! :o)

Absolutely!  That, plus walking in faith in/on Jesus, and living self-LESS-ly. :2c: :dsunny:

[rosered]

Sorta looks like one must walk in meekness to be spiritual or clean eh! :o)

Absolutely!  That, plus walking in faith in/on Jesus, and living self-LESS-ly. :2c: :dsunny:

Amen to both  :HeartThrob:




This reminded  me of 1Peter 3   17     that jumped out once  to me,      the God would will it   that  we all suffer  for Christ  sake  rather than self     :thumbsup:
Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:[/b][/color] 


1Pe 3:9   Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 
1Pe 3:10   For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 


1Pe 3:11   Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 


1Pe 3:12   For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.  


1Pe 3:13 ¶ And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 


1Pe 3:14   But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 

1Pe 3:15   But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 
1Pe 3:16   Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 


1Pe 3:17   For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.   


1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  


1Pe 3:19   By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 


1Pe 3:20   Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 


1Pe 3:21   The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 


1Pe 3:22   Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.