The Rapture of the church

[Jock]

 well, I know it seems to speak very clearly 1Thess:4. I'm not so sure about the rapture, any wisdom on this topic?

Jock.

[Lazarus Short]

Given what the Bible tells us about the events of Christ's return, with shouts, trumpets, and the very sky being rolled aside, the secret rapture does not hold up very well.  Jesus the Christ arrives, the dead saints rise first, the living saints rise just after, and they all meet Him in the air.  After that...well there is no problem after that, for we will be with Him...

[rosered]

  Hi Laz , you broght up a great  point
  I always wondered why in the world  Matt 27 , 52& 53  says many of the  saints who had fallen asleep   rose  out of their tombs after Jesus resurrection ? 

  what is this about ?    and those  dead whom hear His Voice shall Live ??   

I have questions more than answers when it comes to  alot of things written in the Word 
Jesus being the resurrection and the Life  , kind of proves this  fact  already  to alot of people and yet others  it cannot ?


50 Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.

51 Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.

52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.


54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God."

I know that the hour of temptation   that Jesus keeps/protects   those whom are of the Philadelphia church from  by keeping HIS WORD of patience    are the only ones who will not experience this out of the   whole world

  So  do you think  the runing the race Paul speaks of is    the  7 churches  we overcome though and   are rewarded   with   out of each one  for a time ?   
Many see them as come and gone and the only church left to overcome is the last   lukewarm one 

For me I am not sure  of alot of things  , but am convinced   already the rapture  is a bust ,   we all get to go though the ''hour of temptation ''  and  great tribulation , that actually  washes the robes   clean  and white  by  going though it

  the hour  Jesus come   to experience was the Cross and death from it  , God the Father rasing Jesus from  the dead making Him Lord over  Life and death  for everyone at that point
  we must also experince  taking up our cross 

   Who started this rapture theory     , was it not  John  Darby   back in 1830  ?

Before that  in Christian    teaching  it was never even a consideration was it ?

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, the secret rapture doctrine is relatively new.  Darby, about 1830, sounds about right.  My worry is that the secret rapture happens and so few are taken, that no one notices...

Jesus had His own hour of temptation in the garden, and after much suffering He found peace by  telling His Father that His will be done if the Cross could not be avoided.

[rosered]

Yes, the secret rapture doctrine is relatively new.  Darby, about 1830, sounds about right.  My worry is that the secret rapture happens and so few are taken, that no one notices...

Jesus had His own hour of temptation in the garden, and after much suffering He found peace by  telling His Father that His will be done if the Cross could not be avoided.

The rapture  is more of  a  rupture therory  :2c:

  :thanks:  Yes   Laz , He knew what His Fathers will was  than when the peaceful silence of REST  had come  , it was settled within Himself !!!!

[Lazarus Short]

A secret rupture would be about as ridiculous...  :doh:

[jedi1989]

Well, if there would be a rapture, in theory it would really be secret.  In fact I think it will be the handful of annoying ones that will be suddenly missing, doubt anyone would actually miss them.  :laughing7:
"have u seen Bob recently?"- A
"nope, he probably went on mission trip again"-B

[Lazarus Short]

People disappear all the time, and some insist the good people will be taken out, while others think bad people will be removed first.  :dunno2:

[jedi1989]

Just prepare for the worst but hope for the best. Thats how I get by.

[lastpost]

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

[Warhawk17]

I know Zender calls it the "snatching away" of believers, but I think he might be taking that verse out of context. I don't know, this is a topic I don't know too much about but would like to know.

[rosered]

  I believe many interpret scriptures   so differently , their is a scriptures for that too lol


knowing that their is  no prophecy of  scripture that is of any  private interpretation ,

I do not think  that  the Word of God is bound in any way   to any one , but is for the benefit of all   

Some of the rapture  and snatching away comes from  the scriptures there will be two at the mill one will be taken and the other left    ,   
I do understand  how hard it is to  communicate  in that all  are blessed  by  it ,  we are all in different places in our  learning of Him ..

I find Love  is a greater power than knowledge and  removes boundries    , that knowledge seems to  encompass /enclose   certain  folks to one another

   the Wisdom from above  is about loving one another  , no matter where they are

I dont have all knowledge        nor all love , but I hope to grow in truth and grace  , that is my hope for all  seeking the Lord .

[CHB]

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

Hi lastpost,

It does seem that a lot of things occured in 70AD.  I have wondered about this for quite some time now. What if there was a resurrection after Paul's death but John was still living because Jesus said "what is it to you if he remain till I come". I think it was in John's time when the resurrection occured, if it did occur?

I still think Christ will come again. What if he returns with all of the saints and sets up a kingdom here on earth just like the prophets speak of in the Old Testament? What do you think about this? I still think there are things to happen, things to be fulfilled else there would be no fleshly beings, no sin. The last enemy has not been put under Christs feet. I think it is a process in progress. What do you think is still to come?

CHB   

[Warhawk17]

An argument I have heard from those who believe that Revelations is mostly future events is that if that stuff already happened, we would be on the New Earth right now, which we obviously aren't. I'm not sure which verses to cite or how to interpret them, but is there anyone on here who takes this view. It seems like a lot of people on this board believe Revelations was the past. I'm not gonna lie, Revelations currently makes me feel like  :sigh: I feel like it will take a lot of work to truly understand what all the symbols mean. This board is great, but it would be even better if I could find like minded people at college who would be willing to get deep into this stuff. The Christian groups like Crusades for Christ, Intervarsity, and FCA don't really do anything for me.

[Warhawk17]

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

Hi lastpost,

It does seem that a lot of things occured in 70AD.  I have wondered about this for quite some time now. What if there was a resurrection after Paul's death but John was still living because Jesus said "what is it to you if he remain till I come". I think it was in John's time when the resurrection occured, if it did occur?

I still think Christ will come again. What if he returns with all of the saints and sets up a kingdom here on earth just like the prophets speak of in the Old Testament? What do you think about this? I still think there are things to happen, things to be fulfilled else there would be no fleshly beings, no sin. The last enemy has not been put under Christs feet. I think it is a process in progress. What do you think is still to come?

CHB

I agree with you CHB. The entire prophesy certainly isn't fulfilled yet, as we would be "all in all" with God if it had been. I do think a lot of the events happened around 70 AD, but I think a lot of it is happening now. That is why I hesitate to take the Preterist view because why aren't we on the New Earth yet? OMG, WHAT IF THIS IS THE NEW EARTH?!  :eek: I WANT A REFUND! :sigh: But Revelations isn't the only book that takes us to the end. When Paul says to the Corinthians that  God will be "all in all," that is when the universe will be complete, and death and sin will have been abolished.

[CHB]

I agree with you CHB. The entire prophesy certainly isn't fulfilled yet, as we would be "all in all" with God if it had been. I do think a lot of the events happened around 70 AD, but I think a lot of it is happening now. That is why I hesitate to take the Preterist view because why aren't we on the New Earth yet? OMG, WHAT IF THIS IS THE NEW EARTH?!   I WANT A REFUND!  But Revelations isn't the only book that takes us to the end. When Paul says to the Corinthians that  God will be "all in all," that is when the universe will be complete, and death and sin will have been abolished.

I agree with this also. I guess you could say I am a partial preterist. I believe all hasn't happened yet, it couldn't have, else I would be immortal.

CHB

[Molly]

Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.

--Psa 90:2


"Unto [God] be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21)



Here are two verses given to me this morning.  The first says He is God from age to age.   The second says that God's glory will be in his church by Christ Jesus through all ages.  wow!  That means the church of God has existed in all ages and will continue to exist in all ages to come.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  Mat 16:18

"Peter"

G4074
Πέτρος
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.


Christ calls his disciple, Simon,  "Cephas [ Peter]" here.   Why did Christ change his name?  Sometimes  the Holy Spirit will do things to get my attention.  That happened one day to me while reading this verse, "Thou art Peter'--I felt a punch in my chest and heard this said in my ears.   He is saying this to every member of his church.  You are Kepha,  a piece of rock being quaried away from the Temple, and on you he will build his church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.  These lively stones [us] will be fitted together to make the true church of God.

Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. Eph 2:20

What does this have to do with the rapture?  Yes it will happen.  We are not appointed to wrath, so it will happen just before the pouring of God's wrath upon a fallen world.  I see this as happening at the end of the great Tribulation, at the end of this age.  He will first remove his church from the world.   But, not to forget, we will rule and reign with him in the next age  on this earth and through all ages, as co-inheritors with Christ, as immortals.

I'm really not making up my own religion lol.  I'm just reading the Bible.



44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Dan 2


IMO  :2c: :2c:

[lastpost]

Dear CHB and friends, thank you for asking me to respond.

Where to start? The "second coming", "end times", Paul, Matthew, John...I do not want to do injustice to the wonder of God's Plan and yet I do not want to take out of context things which would mean something different when so done. So please bear with me, I realise some may not bear with me but I must try.

I believe that there are two separate issues involved here and I shall separate them hopefully according to my understanding:
1] Christ coming to this Earth in His Glory
2] The awful scenes portrayed in certain messages that have found their permanent place in the Bible.

I believe that a difficulty presents itself in attempting to put into human words spiritual messages and visions which describe spiritual life in a sphere which is not physical and in which words spoken with a physical mouth and heard with physical ears do not take place because the life there is not physical as we regard life in this material universe.

What of human interpretation of messages from a Higher Realm as it is delivered to us? Isaiah was charged to speak of a particular message of the Supreme God to a people of that time in poetic imagery, different to the metaphorical imagery of Ezekiel, and different to the burdens passed through Jeremiah, and different again to the mystic symbolism of Hosea. And sometimes the vocal chords of prophets were taken over completely to give the word of the Lord direct. And Peter, Paul and John, receiving their Divinely-given message - whether "trance", "vision", transported (harpazo => carried off) to a certain heaven, overpowering influence by the Holy Spirit, etc.) - spoke of the same truth but coloured with their own personality and seen from different angles.

In my opinion, explaining spiritual reality in a physical world is always going to be limiting. This is one of the difficulties that Jesus the Christ had in describing the Kingdom of Heaven: To what shall we compare it, said He. He never did name it as an actual "place" but gave various analogies as to what it was like, and even then He included the imagery of movement and growth. Not only did He cast images into our minds as to possible exterior notions but He also told us that we would find the Kingdom within.

And there is a good point to note: If the Kingdom of Heaven is within, then the King must be enthroned. We could take this image and then build up a Kingdom of birds alighting on branches, or little seeds sprouting green shoots...This creates yet another image of a growing vibrant Kingdom -  an important point not least because eternity is a long time.

This can be remembered when considering the issue of the coming of the Kingdom and indeed to the time when God will be "all things in all beings" or similarly, the prophet's words that Christ will: "...see the travail of His soul and He shall be satisfied" or again similarly when "...Every knee should bow..." at the name of Jesus.

Yet, I would say that we should not be too hasty so that we should not mix up the urgency of "Behold, I come quickly" with the return of Christ in His glory. They are in my opinion, as I have tried to explain, separate issues.

Paul attempted to explain (to those who would read his writing) the extreme length of time involved in this scheme of things Divine, by stating that there was an Aeon of aeons (i.e. "throughout all the generations of the Aeon of aeons") and as Macrina puts it (Life and Resurrection): "When the evil has been extirpated in the long cycles of the Aeons nothing shall be left outside the boundaries of good".

Traditionally, right back through the centuries, there has been a mass of people following a religion under the banner of the Master, and there has been an idea that the Gentle Shepherd of mankind, the One Who came as the representative of the God Who is Love, the One Who poured out His compassion on the poor, the One Who pushed His tired body through searing heat and dust to heal the sick, the One Who could not contain the tears from falling down His cheeks as He witnessed the sadness around Himself - there has been an idea that this same wonderful Soul shall come back to this planet like some deranged avenging maniac, delirious with the uncontrollable desire for revenge upon those who hold in their mind a different idea to their own idea of His birth, life and death - no less.

1] So, may I say that when Christ comes, I believe, it will be in His glory, and He will come with an array of angels. But before that, the world must be in a state of spirituality to accept such Divinity. I believe there will still be doubters at that time and they will be baffled, but they will be in the small minority. That time is dependent upon humanity. It is not held to a particular year but when mankind is ready. And mankind will be glad to see Him, they will know who He is and the God of Love that He stands for, and they will desire with all their hearts for Him to come in His glory.

2] Now, to contrast this with Matthew 25: Christ shall come but in a different way and for a different purpose - and this He has been doing since even before He came as man upon this Earth because time is not a consideration here but rather an event, the end of a person's life - for nobody knows "the hour He will come" (the hour of death), to each one regardless of their "nationality" for His law of Love has always been in force and violators must pay the price.  When He comes like He does in Matthew 25, it is at the end of the life of each individual: The maidens who failed to prepare themselves (spiritually) and who were not fit to enter a certain (spiritual) state - The servant who was given a (spiritual) gift but made it filthy by idly burying it in the earth so bringing nothing to his Lord as far as increasing the coverage of his Kingdom was concerned. What are these but spiritual conditions developed by an individual (or lack of them). Perhaps I have not put that so well but I hope the meaning is brought over.

Then what is the rest of the main thrust of this passage? Accepting once a single notion of salvation in the mind? No and again no! It is about the degree of Divine love released in a person and how it is applied in a practical sense.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (Figuratively speaking), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (Figuratively speaking), Depart from me, ye cursed, into age-lasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

This whole scene set in Matthew is about spiritual development and application of spiritual teachings, about the characteristics of the individual which have been developed by the application of the gift of freewill. It is a spiritual teaching that either Matthew heard His Master speak or a message that he was given by Christ Himself after His death on the Cross or on behalf of Christ by an angel or by the Holy Spirit - but it is not about accepting an idea of salvation because it is about action, doing, preparation, effort. This cannot be denied.

When Christ comes "quickly", let the individual be found spiritually alive and not slothfully and idly dead because their reward shall be according to their practical application of their freewill: The "...dead were judged according to their works..." Rev.20:12.

Christ comes to each individual whether they recognise Him or not: "...And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man as his work shall be." Rev.22:12.

Even Matthew has told us that: "...The Son of man...shall reward every man according to his works..." Matt.16:27.

Luke tells us that the Master Christ said that there is a perfect law of consequences in dynamic action: "For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:37.

Paul tells us in a number of different ways about this law of sowing and reaping: "...God will render to every man according to his deeds..." Rom.2:6, 2 Cor.5:10, 1 Cor.3:13-15, Gal.6:7.

But he who keeps His sayings "shall never see death all through the Aeon" (εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα). Thus His teaching and example is the Way, the Truth and the Life - and nobody goes to the Father except through that Way.

The warnings are clear. The Divine Love is plain. The way is simple and there is nothing complicated about it. It is man that has made it complicated and it is man that prevents humanity from knowing the Christ (Who represents His Father) Who loves His child enough to die for him, Who is hurt when His child is hurt, Who reveals a much more sensitive God than he ever dreamt possible.

Man is now able to see something of the passing of eras, of different levels of revelation of his God being given forth, each new era bringing a higher degree of knowledge and awareness about his God.

Man must realise that His God is of a Divine Love so past his understanding and experience that He can stop anthropomorphising Him because he realises that there is no longer any need to attribute to Him the lower human emotions such as anger and revenge - ideas utilised to rein in an evil and degraded people (habituated to sacrificing their own children even) so that they would stop heaping upon themselves painful consequences.

Man must understand that there is a Divine Law in action which has been there from the beginning of life which teaches man lessons if he transgresses that law - and so he can dissassociate the God Who is Love from the "Punisher" which was an idea necessary before Christ Jesus spilt the Blood that was to start the unstoppable purification of the souls of His children.

Man must put Christ in front and follow Him and Him alone as His Leader, man must stop looking behind and consulting a history which was a compass for another era though informative in that light - such habits are not helpful to the forward march of the pilgrim - but instead man must never take his eyes off the Light in front Who calls a man onwards and upwards until he lets the dead bury the dead and snaps the tethers which seek to hold him back.

Man must put the King in his heart so that the Greater Kingdom may flourish. And then - and only then - it shall be the case that God is all in all.

[eaglesway]

The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.

No correction of God is meted out for arbitrary legalistic violations of the superficial aspects of His law. It is for the reformation of the character so that freedom becomes love and love becomes life expressed in righteousness, peace and joy, abounding in goodness and harmony. The superficial aspects of His law are "shadowy images" or "tutors" that lead us to the real light- the love life of Jesus Christ, shared like bread and wine at a table of joyous fellowship.

[CHB]

When Christ comes "quickly", let the individual be found spiritually alive and not slothfully and idly dead because their reward shall be according to their practical application of their freewill: The "...dead were judged according to their works..." Rev.20:12.

I don't agree that man has a freewill but I do believe everyone will be judged according to their works which is either by the works that Jesus Christ does in us or by the laws which man thinks he needs to do. If Jesus Christ is doing the works in me and not I, then I will be judged righteously/or by Christ works, not by my works. If I live by the works of the law thinking I am the one performing them, then I am walking on shaky ground. I may go through the lake of fire and experience the second death. That is the purging of self, then I can see that Christ is performing the work in me. The concept of freewill is always connected with works/law.

Anyway, I am more curious as to what becomes of us from here on out? Do you believe that the world as we know it will remain with all of it's sinfulness, heartache, and troubles? Are you saying we go on to heaven when we die?

CHB

[lastpost]

Dear CHB, I can understand your point that you do no good works but through the Christ. T o continue from where I left off in my last post: When a person has Christ enthroned within their inner Kingdom, that person knows that only by the power of Christ could they even lift their hand an inch. But that still does not remove freewill and learning how to act in accordance with the direction of the Christ within although nothing can be done without His power.

I do not take the creation of man in Genesis literally, I believe it is a parable.

I believe that God made us in His own Image and that He is Spirit. Therefore we are also spirit but in miniature - children of God. The difference between us and God is that we have our own individuality and therefore we also have our own freewill. We would not have individual life if we did not have freedom to choose. And we can choose to follow Christ or not.

I believe this was away back before the foundation of the Earth and that by the abuse of freewill man has degenerated to a state where he is only a little higher than the animals, but he is meant to be a child of God.

I do not believe that freewill is associated only with the lesser self but it is in fact a very sacred gift and one which the Most High Himself does not interfere with.

Freewill is as a weapon which has a two-fold purpose, but which is used in a threefold way, because of the blindness, because of the foolishness of the children of the Earth.

Freewill was given to us so that we might choose aright with the greater, stronger self within. It was given also so that that same freewill might operate in the service of others to their advantage; that is the twofold aspect. The third is the misdirection, the abuse of the freewill, that turning from God and listening to the counsels of the enemies of the Spirit.

The freewill was given as a gift and is spiritual and is meant to be used to God's glory - God revels in the fact that His children wish to serve Him out of the overwhelming love they have for Him. It was not given merely to make a single choice of the mind and then expect that evreything we do is really Christ doing it.

[lastpost]

In my opinion, the world as we know it will not remain as it is forever. I think that what was said in my one from last post about the Kingdom of God blossoming should be given more serious thought. I believe that because of Christ's birth, life and death, the tide is now turned irrevocably and the world will become spiritualised - He said that He came to save the world not destroy it - and as He is right because He is Truth, then we need to analyse what a saved world is.

This will take a great deal of time. And while there is clearly evil there is a great deal of good going on, more good than before Christ came among us. I say that because some people fail to realise how evil this world used to be and it was going downhill beyond help and only Christ could save it by coming when He did and offering His life in more ways than one.

Changes must take place but it will happen. Yes, there will still be sin, this is a world made out of chaos and it is only still young but there will be a stage when the majority of people will be spiritual - I believe. And sin? Why, this is something which hurts the God within and without. When people are taught properly about the God they can find through Christ then they will try so very hard never to hurt their God by breaking His laws. And this is achieved by following the Way laid down by Christ.

Heaven? What is Heaven friend? Heaven is one thing to man and another to God. Is Heaven a beautiful country where all is day and life is good? Or is Heaven seeking to serve the God Who is Love by serving His lambs, His sheep? What then is Heaven? It is where the conditions have been purified by sacrifice and service, where selfishness has been lost forever in total unity and harmony with the One Who gave us life. It is doing His Will - and there will be plenty of opportunity to do His Will my friend, of this I have no doubt. But when and how much opportunity depends on the individual and how they have lived so far - and I refer you back to Matthew and all of the teachings there. Indeed, I refer you to the main thrust of all of Christ's teachings.

So what happens to us from now? We shall all die. From there we keep our characters, they do not change overnight - what we believed and the thoughts of our minds, and the habits of our minds - all these we keep. Do we become different individuals because we die? - No, is this in any way sensible, logical, meaningful? We are still the same but not beyond change because of that same freewill. But as for the end of the physical body and arrival in another condition, the individual is just the same in personality: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

We are changed and yet not changed. We had physical bodies but now we have other types of bodies. Some will have clean, pure, light, beautiful spiritual bodies that respond to love in others and in the surroundings themselves.

Others will not resemble a human being any more, they will not even resemble an animal from Earth. They will be so deformed that there will be nothing of the Earth - as grey as it is now - that can be referred to in order to describe what that sick body is like. And whatever the owner of such a body did to others to get it into that state, all that will be performed on the owner with a precision that will shake those able to follow the career of such a one. But such evil is not performed by God - no, that individual finds himself in a place with similar individuals who have created for themselves an existence where love is absent because they reap what they have sown until it is all purged from them, and it only need be left to the imagination what a place full of monsters full of evil violence is like. But God and His angels are forever watching and waiting and listening for the first prayer to arise.

But lest this all sound gruesome, do not forget the effect that the Saviour has had on the many. His life and death - what effect! So even those who differ in their ideas of freewill and predestination and indeed salvation - these have been touched by the Master and His Law is firmly established in them as far as His teachings are concerned, even if His teachings are not understood in exactly similar ways. Once the Master has touched us with His love, we want no other Guide or Teacher - He is the Saviour indeed.

Peace.

[eaglesway]

Dear CHB, I can understand your point that you do no good works but through the Christ. T o continue from where I left off in my last post: When a person has Christ enthroned within their inner Kingdom, that person knows that only by the power of Christ could they even lift their hand an inch. But that still does not remove freewill and learning how to act in accordance with the direction of the Christ within although nothing can be done without His power.

I do not take the creation of man in Genesis literally, I believe it is a parable.

I believe that God made us in His own Image and that He is Spirit. Therefore we are also spirit but in miniature - children of God. The difference between us and God is that we have our own individuality and therefore we also have our own freewill. We would not have individual life if we did not have freedom to choose. And we can choose to follow Christ or not.

I believe this was away back before the foundation of the Earth and that by the abuse of freewill man has degenerated to a state where he is only a little higher than the animals, but he is meant to be a child of God.

I do not believe that freewill is associated only with the lesser self but it is in fact a very sacred gift and one which the Most High Himself does not interfere with.

Freewill is as a weapon which has a two-fold purpose, but which is used in a threefold way, because of the blindness, because of the foolishness of the children of the Earth.

Freewill was given to us so that we might choose aright with the greater, stronger self within. It was given also so that that same freewill might operate in the service of others to their advantage; that is the twofold aspect. The third is the misdirection, the abuse of the freewill, that turning from God and listening to the counsels of the enemies of the Spirit.

The freewill was given as a gift and is spiritual and is meant to be used to God's glory - God revels in the fact that His children wish to serve Him out of the overwhelming love they have for Him. It was not given merely to make a single choice of the mind and then expect that evreything we do is really Christ doing it.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

In my opinion, the world as we know it will not remain as it is forever. I think that what was said in my one from last post about the Kingdom of God blossoming should be given more serious thought. I believe that because of Christ's birth, life and death, the tide is now turned irrevocably and the world will become spiritualised - He said that He came to save the world not destroy it - and as He is right because He is Truth, then we need to analyse what a saved world is.

This will take a great deal of time. And while there is clearly evil there is a great deal of good going on, more good than before Christ came among us. I say that because some people fail to realise how evil this world used to be and it was going downhill beyond help and only Christ could save it by coming when He did and offering His life in more ways than one.

Changes must take place but it will happen. Yes, there will still be sin, this is a world made out of chaos and it is only still young but there will be a stage when the majority of people will be spiritual - I believe. And sin? Why, this is something which hurts the God within and without. When people are taught properly about the God they can find through Christ then they will try so very hard never to hurt their God by breaking His laws. And this is achieved by following the Way laid down by Christ.

Heaven? What is Heaven friend? Heaven is one thing to man and another to God. Is Heaven a beautiful country where all is day and life is good? Or is Heaven seeking to serve the God Who is Love by serving His lambs, His sheep? What then is Heaven? It is where the conditions have been purified by sacrifice and service, where selfishness has been lost forever in total unity and harmony with the One Who gave us life. It is doing His Will - and there will be plenty of opportunity to do His Will my friend, of this I have no doubt. But when and how much opportunity depends on the individual and how they have lived so far - and I refer you back to Matthew and all of the teachings there. Indeed, I refer you to the main thrust of all of Christ's teachings.

So what happens to us from now? We shall all die. From there we keep our characters, they do not change overnight - what we believed and the thoughts of our minds, and the habits of our minds - all these we keep. Do we become different individuals because we die? - No, is this in any way sensible, logical, meaningful? We are still the same but not beyond change because of that same freewill. But as for the end of the physical body and arrival in another condition, the individual is just the same in personality: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

We are changed and yet not changed. We had physical bodies but now we have other types of bodies. Some will have clean, pure, light, beautiful spiritual bodies that respond to love in others and in the surroundings themselves.

Others will not resemble a human being any more, they will not even resemble an animal from Earth. They will be so deformed that there will be nothing of the Earth - as grey as it is now - that can be referred to in order to describe what that sick body is like. And whatever the owner of such a body did to others to get it into that state, all that will be performed on the owner with a precision that will shake those able to follow the career of such a one. But such evil is not performed by God - no, that individual finds himself in a place with similar individuals who have created for themselves an existence where love is absent because they reap what they have sown until it is all purged from them, and it only need be left to the imagination what a place full of monsters full of evil violence is like. But God and His angels are forever watching and waiting and listening for the first prayer to arise.

But lest this all sound gruesome, do not forget the effect that the Saviour has had on the many. His life and death - what effect! So even those who differ in their ideas of freewill and predestination and indeed salvation - these have been touched by the Master and His Law is firmly established in them as far as His teachings are concerned, even if His teachings are not understood in exactly similar ways. Once the Master has touched us with His love, we want no other Guide or Teacher - He is the Saviour indeed.

Peace.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I do see the creation account in genesis as literal, but I believe God speaks through His creative works to the overiding principles of His being so that we can "learn" to be as He is, a free will being acting always out of love.

The earyth was without form and void(carnal mind, not conformed to the image of Christ, empty), the Spirit hovered over the water (the kindness of God leads us to repentence, the Spirit of God will not strive with man forever), the VOICE speaks, "Let there be Light and there is light and it is good and there begins to be separation"(the light shines in the darkness and the darknes can not overcome it, the word of God is living and active and sharper than any twoedged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit bone and marrow, MAKING MANIFEST/exposing to the light- the thoughts and motives of the heart). The waters are separated, heavens divided, dry land appears- UNDERSTANDING, all by the word of God SPEAKING THROUGH THE VERY HISTORY OF ALL HIS WORKS to the consciousness of man. "For in Him we live and breath and have our being"

Nothing is hidden that will not be revealed.

All will be brought to light, every second, every minute, every year, every age a lesson that CHANGES the nature of the clay on the Potters wheel.

THESE THINGS WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR EXAMPLE, that we might not fall in the same manner of unbelief.

Bringing us into the promised rest, our Sabboth- the finished work of God, Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

For the one who has died has ceased from his own work, even as God ceased from His.

True obedience is not work, it is the willing response of love, given in hope that enters within the veil and fails not.

Lord have mercy :o)