Tentmaker Forum

 well, I know it seems to speak very clearly 1Thess:4. I'm not so sure about the rapture, any wisdom on this topic?

Jock.

Given what the Bible tells us about the events of Christ's return, with shouts, trumpets, and the very sky being rolled aside, the secret rapture does not hold up very well.  Jesus the Christ arrives, the dead saints rise first, the living saints rise just after, and they all meet Him in the air.  After that...well there is no problem after that, for we will be with Him...

  Hi Laz , you broght up a great  point
  I always wondered why in the world  Matt 27 , 52& 53  says many of the  saints who had fallen asleep   rose  out of their tombs after Jesus resurrection ? 

  what is this about ?    and those  dead whom hear His Voice shall Live ??   

I have questions more than answers when it comes to  alot of things written in the Word 
Jesus being the resurrection and the Life  , kind of proves this  fact  already  to alot of people and yet others  it cannot ?


50 Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.

51 Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.

52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.


54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God."

I know that the hour of temptation   that Jesus keeps/protects   those whom are of the Philadelphia church from  by keeping HIS WORD of patience    are the only ones who will not experience this out of the   whole world

  So  do you think  the runing the race Paul speaks of is    the  7 churches  we overcome though and   are rewarded   with   out of each one  for a time ?   
Many see them as come and gone and the only church left to overcome is the last   lukewarm one 

For me I am not sure  of alot of things  , but am convinced   already the rapture  is a bust ,   we all get to go though the ''hour of temptation ''  and  great tribulation , that actually  washes the robes   clean  and white  by  going though it

  the hour  Jesus come   to experience was the Cross and death from it  , God the Father rasing Jesus from  the dead making Him Lord over  Life and death  for everyone at that point
  we must also experince  taking up our cross 

   Who started this rapture theory     , was it not  John  Darby   back in 1830  ?

Before that  in Christian    teaching  it was never even a consideration was it ?

Yes, the secret rapture doctrine is relatively new.  Darby, about 1830, sounds about right.  My worry is that the secret rapture happens and so few are taken, that no one notices...

Jesus had His own hour of temptation in the garden, and after much suffering He found peace by  telling His Father that His will be done if the Cross could not be avoided.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 17, 2013, 06:12:30 PM
Yes, the secret rapture doctrine is relatively new.  Darby, about 1830, sounds about right.  My worry is that the secret rapture happens and so few are taken, that no one notices...

Jesus had His own hour of temptation in the garden, and after much suffering He found peace by  telling His Father that His will be done if the Cross could not be avoided.

The rapture  is more of  a  rupture therory  :2c:

  :thanks:  Yes   Laz , He knew what His Fathers will was  than when the peaceful silence of REST  had come  , it was settled within Himself !!!!

A secret rupture would be about as ridiculous...  :doh:

Well, if there would be a rapture, in theory it would really be secret.  In fact I think it will be the handful of annoying ones that will be suddenly missing, doubt anyone would actually miss them.  :laughing7:
"have u seen Bob recently?"- A
"nope, he probably went on mission trip again"-B

People disappear all the time, and some insist the good people will be taken out, while others think bad people will be removed first.  :dunno2:

Just prepare for the worst but hope for the best. Thats how I get by.

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem  (http://the%20destruction%20of%20jerusalem)http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm)

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

I know Zender calls it the "snatching away" of believers, but I think he might be taking that verse out of context. I don't know, this is a topic I don't know too much about but would like to know.

  I believe many interpret scriptures   so differently , their is a scriptures for that too lol


knowing that their is  no prophecy of  scripture that is of any  private interpretation ,

I do not think  that  the Word of God is bound in any way   to any one , but is for the benefit of all   

Some of the rapture  and snatching away comes from  the scriptures there will be two at the mill one will be taken and the other left    ,   
I do understand  how hard it is to  communicate  in that all  are blessed  by  it ,  we are all in different places in our  learning of Him ..

I find Love  is a greater power than knowledge and  removes boundries    , that knowledge seems to  encompass /enclose   certain  folks to one another

   the Wisdom from above  is about loving one another  , no matter where they are

I dont have all knowledge        nor all love , but I hope to grow in truth and grace  , that is my hope for all  seeking the Lord .

Quote from: lastpost on May 18, 2013, 12:15:42 AM

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem  (http://the%20destruction%20of%20jerusalem)http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm)

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

Hi lastpost,

It does seem that a lot of things occured in 70AD.  I have wondered about this for quite some time now. What if there was a resurrection after Paul's death but John was still living because Jesus said "what is it to you if he remain till I come". I think it was in John's time when the resurrection occured, if it did occur?

I still think Christ will come again. What if he returns with all of the saints and sets up a kingdom here on earth just like the prophets speak of in the Old Testament? What do you think about this? I still think there are things to happen, things to be fulfilled else there would be no fleshly beings, no sin. The last enemy has not been put under Christs feet. I think it is a process in progress. What do you think is still to come?

CHB   

An argument I have heard from those who believe that Revelations is mostly future events is that if that stuff already happened, we would be on the New Earth right now, which we obviously aren't. I'm not sure which verses to cite or how to interpret them, but is there anyone on here who takes this view. It seems like a lot of people on this board believe Revelations was the past. I'm not gonna lie, Revelations currently makes me feel like  :sigh: I feel like it will take a lot of work to truly understand what all the symbols mean. This board is great, but it would be even better if I could find like minded people at college who would be willing to get deep into this stuff. The Christian groups like Crusades for Christ, Intervarsity, and FCA don't really do anything for me.

Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2013, 10:46:03 PM

Quote from: lastpost on May 18, 2013, 12:15:42 AM

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem  (http://the%20destruction%20of%20jerusalem)http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm)

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

Hi lastpost,

It does seem that a lot of things occured in 70AD.  I have wondered about this for quite some time now. What if there was a resurrection after Paul's death but John was still living because Jesus said "what is it to you if he remain till I come". I think it was in John's time when the resurrection occured, if it did occur?

I still think Christ will come again. What if he returns with all of the saints and sets up a kingdom here on earth just like the prophets speak of in the Old Testament? What do you think about this? I still think there are things to happen, things to be fulfilled else there would be no fleshly beings, no sin. The last enemy has not been put under Christs feet. I think it is a process in progress. What do you think is still to come?

CHB

I agree with you CHB. The entire prophesy certainly isn't fulfilled yet, as we would be "all in all" with God if it had been. I do think a lot of the events happened around 70 AD, but I think a lot of it is happening now. That is why I hesitate to take the Preterist view because why aren't we on the New Earth yet? OMG, WHAT IF THIS IS THE NEW EARTH?!  :eek: I WANT A REFUND! :sigh: But Revelations isn't the only book that takes us to the end. When Paul says to the Corinthians that  God will be "all in all," that is when the universe will be complete, and death and sin will have been abolished.

Quote from: Warhawk17
I agree with you CHB. The entire prophesy certainly isn't fulfilled yet, as we would be "all in all" with God if it had been. I do think a lot of the events happened around 70 AD, but I think a lot of it is happening now. That is why I hesitate to take the Preterist view because why aren't we on the New Earth yet? OMG, WHAT IF THIS IS THE NEW EARTH?!   I WANT A REFUND!  But Revelations isn't the only book that takes us to the end. When Paul says to the Corinthians that  God will be "all in all," that is when the universe will be complete, and death and sin will have been abolished.

Quote

I agree with this also. I guess you could say I am a partial preterist. I believe all hasn't happened yet, it couldn't have, else I would be immortal.

CHB

Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.

--Psa 90:2


"Unto [God] be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21)



Here are two verses given to me this morning.  The first says He is God from age to age.   The second says that God's glory will be in his church by Christ Jesus through all ages.  wow!  That means the church of God has existed in all ages and will continue to exist in all ages to come.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  Mat 16:18

"Peter"

G4074
Πέτρος
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.


Christ calls his disciple, Simon,  "Cephas [ Peter]" here.   Why did Christ change his name?  Sometimes  the Holy Spirit will do things to get my attention.  That happened one day to me while reading this verse, "Thou art Peter'--I felt a punch in my chest and heard this said in my ears.   He is saying this to every member of his church.  You are Kepha,  a piece of rock being quaried away from the Temple, and on you he will build his church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.  These lively stones [us] will be fitted together to make the true church of God.

Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. Eph 2:20

What does this have to do with the rapture?  Yes it will happen.  We are not appointed to wrath, so it will happen just before the pouring of God's wrath upon a fallen world.  I see this as happening at the end of the great Tribulation, at the end of this age.  He will first remove his church from the world.   But, not to forget, we will rule and reign with him in the next age  on this earth and through all ages, as co-inheritors with Christ, as immortals.

I'm really not making up my own religion lol.  I'm just reading the Bible.



44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Dan 2


IMO  :2c: :2c:

Dear CHB and friends, thank you for asking me to respond.

Where to start? The "second coming", "end times", Paul, Matthew, John...I do not want to do injustice to the wonder of God's Plan and yet I do not want to take out of context things which would mean something different when so done. So please bear with me, I realise some may not bear with me but I must try.

I believe that there are two separate issues involved here and I shall separate them hopefully according to my understanding:
1] Christ coming to this Earth in His Glory
2] The awful scenes portrayed in certain messages that have found their permanent place in the Bible.

I believe that a difficulty presents itself in attempting to put into human words spiritual messages and visions which describe spiritual life in a sphere which is not physical and in which words spoken with a physical mouth and heard with physical ears do not take place because the life there is not physical as we regard life in this material universe.

What of human interpretation of messages from a Higher Realm as it is delivered to us? Isaiah was charged to speak of a particular message of the Supreme God to a people of that time in poetic imagery, different to the metaphorical imagery of Ezekiel, and different to the burdens passed through Jeremiah, and different again to the mystic symbolism of Hosea. And sometimes the vocal chords of prophets were taken over completely to give the word of the Lord direct. And Peter, Paul and John, receiving their Divinely-given message - whether "trance", "vision", transported (harpazo => carried off) to a certain heaven, overpowering influence by the Holy Spirit, etc.) - spoke of the same truth but coloured with their own personality and seen from different angles.

In my opinion, explaining spiritual reality in a physical world is always going to be limiting. This is one of the difficulties that Jesus the Christ had in describing the Kingdom of Heaven: To what shall we compare it, said He. He never did name it as an actual "place" but gave various analogies as to what it was like, and even then He included the imagery of movement and growth. Not only did He cast images into our minds as to possible exterior notions but He also told us that we would find the Kingdom within.

And there is a good point to note: If the Kingdom of Heaven is within, then the King must be enthroned. We could take this image and then build up a Kingdom of birds alighting on branches, or little seeds sprouting green shoots...This creates yet another image of a growing vibrant Kingdom -  an important point not least because eternity is a long time.

This can be remembered when considering the issue of the coming of the Kingdom and indeed to the time when God will be "all things in all beings" or similarly, the prophet's words that Christ will: "...see the travail of His soul and He shall be satisfied" or again similarly when "...Every knee should bow..." at the name of Jesus.

Yet, I would say that we should not be too hasty so that we should not mix up the urgency of "Behold, I come quickly" with the return of Christ in His glory. They are in my opinion, as I have tried to explain, separate issues.

Paul attempted to explain (to those who would read his writing) the extreme length of time involved in this scheme of things Divine, by stating that there was an Aeon of aeons (i.e. "throughout all the generations of the Aeon of aeons") and as Macrina puts it (Life and Resurrection): "When the evil has been extirpated in the long cycles of the Aeons nothing shall be left outside the boundaries of good".

Traditionally, right back through the centuries, there has been a mass of people following a religion under the banner of the Master, and there has been an idea that the Gentle Shepherd of mankind, the One Who came as the representative of the God Who is Love, the One Who poured out His compassion on the poor, the One Who pushed His tired body through searing heat and dust to heal the sick, the One Who could not contain the tears from falling down His cheeks as He witnessed the sadness around Himself - there has been an idea that this same wonderful Soul shall come back to this planet like some deranged avenging maniac, delirious with the uncontrollable desire for revenge upon those who hold in their mind a different idea to their own idea of His birth, life and death - no less.

1] So, may I say that when Christ comes, I believe, it will be in His glory, and He will come with an array of angels. But before that, the world must be in a state of spirituality to accept such Divinity. I believe there will still be doubters at that time and they will be baffled, but they will be in the small minority. That time is dependent upon humanity. It is not held to a particular year but when mankind is ready. And mankind will be glad to see Him, they will know who He is and the God of Love that He stands for, and they will desire with all their hearts for Him to come in His glory.

2] Now, to contrast this with Matthew 25: Christ shall come but in a different way and for a different purpose - and this He has been doing since even before He came as man upon this Earth because time is not a consideration here but rather an event, the end of a person's life - for nobody knows "the hour He will come" (the hour of death), to each one regardless of their "nationality" for His law of Love has always been in force and violators must pay the price.  When He comes like He does in Matthew 25, it is at the end of the life of each individual: The maidens who failed to prepare themselves (spiritually) and who were not fit to enter a certain (spiritual) state - The servant who was given a (spiritual) gift but made it filthy by idly burying it in the earth so bringing nothing to his Lord as far as increasing the coverage of his Kingdom was concerned. What are these but spiritual conditions developed by an individual (or lack of them). Perhaps I have not put that so well but I hope the meaning is brought over.

Then what is the rest of the main thrust of this passage? Accepting once a single notion of salvation in the mind? No and again no! It is about the degree of Divine love released in a person and how it is applied in a practical sense.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (Figuratively speaking), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (Figuratively speaking), Depart from me, ye cursed, into age-lasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

This whole scene set in Matthew is about spiritual development and application of spiritual teachings, about the characteristics of the individual which have been developed by the application of the gift of freewill. It is a spiritual teaching that either Matthew heard His Master speak or a message that he was given by Christ Himself after His death on the Cross or on behalf of Christ by an angel or by the Holy Spirit - but it is not about accepting an idea of salvation because it is about action, doing, preparation, effort. This cannot be denied.

When Christ comes "quickly", let the individual be found spiritually alive and not slothfully and idly dead because their reward shall be according to their practical application of their freewill: The "...dead were judged according to their works..." Rev.20:12.

Christ comes to each individual whether they recognise Him or not: "...And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man as his work shall be." Rev.22:12.

Even Matthew has told us that: "...The Son of man...shall reward every man according to his works..." Matt.16:27.

Luke tells us that the Master Christ said that there is a perfect law of consequences in dynamic action: "For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:37.

Paul tells us in a number of different ways about this law of sowing and reaping: "...God will render to every man according to his deeds..." Rom.2:6, 2 Cor.5:10, 1 Cor.3:13-15, Gal.6:7.

But he who keeps His sayings "shall never see death all through the Aeon" (εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα). Thus His teaching and example is the Way, the Truth and the Life - and nobody goes to the Father except through that Way.

The warnings are clear. The Divine Love is plain. The way is simple and there is nothing complicated about it. It is man that has made it complicated and it is man that prevents humanity from knowing the Christ (Who represents His Father) Who loves His child enough to die for him, Who is hurt when His child is hurt, Who reveals a much more sensitive God than he ever dreamt possible.

Man is now able to see something of the passing of eras, of different levels of revelation of his God being given forth, each new era bringing a higher degree of knowledge and awareness about his God.

Man must realise that His God is of a Divine Love so past his understanding and experience that He can stop anthropomorphising Him because he realises that there is no longer any need to attribute to Him the lower human emotions such as anger and revenge - ideas utilised to rein in an evil and degraded people (habituated to sacrificing their own children even) so that they would stop heaping upon themselves painful consequences.

Man must understand that there is a Divine Law in action which has been there from the beginning of life which teaches man lessons if he transgresses that law - and so he can dissassociate the God Who is Love from the "Punisher" which was an idea necessary before Christ Jesus spilt the Blood that was to start the unstoppable purification of the souls of His children.

Man must put Christ in front and follow Him and Him alone as His Leader, man must stop looking behind and consulting a history which was a compass for another era though informative in that light - such habits are not helpful to the forward march of the pilgrim - but instead man must never take his eyes off the Light in front Who calls a man onwards and upwards until he lets the dead bury the dead and snaps the tethers which seek to hold him back.

Man must put the King in his heart so that the Greater Kingdom may flourish. And then - and only then - it shall be the case that God is all in all.

The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.

No correction of God is meted out for arbitrary legalistic violations of the superficial aspects of His law. It is for the reformation of the character so that freedom becomes love and love becomes life expressed in righteousness, peace and joy, abounding in goodness and harmony. The superficial aspects of His law are "shadowy images" or "tutors" that lead us to the real light- the love life of Jesus Christ, shared like bread and wine at a table of joyous fellowship.

Quote from: lastpost
When Christ comes "quickly", let the individual be found spiritually alive and not slothfully and idly dead because their reward shall be according to their practical application of their freewill: The "...dead were judged according to their works..." Rev.20:12.

I don't agree that man has a freewill but I do believe everyone will be judged according to their works which is either by the works that Jesus Christ does in us or by the laws which man thinks he needs to do. If Jesus Christ is doing the works in me and not I, then I will be judged righteously/or by Christ works, not by my works. If I live by the works of the law thinking I am the one performing them, then I am walking on shaky ground. I may go through the lake of fire and experience the second death. That is the purging of self, then I can see that Christ is performing the work in me. The concept of freewill is always connected with works/law.

Anyway, I am more curious as to what becomes of us from here on out? Do you believe that the world as we know it will remain with all of it's sinfulness, heartache, and troubles? Are you saying we go on to heaven when we die?

CHB

Dear CHB, I can understand your point that you do no good works but through the Christ. T o continue from where I left off in my last post: When a person has Christ enthroned within their inner Kingdom, that person knows that only by the power of Christ could they even lift their hand an inch. But that still does not remove freewill and learning how to act in accordance with the direction of the Christ within although nothing can be done without His power.

I do not take the creation of man in Genesis literally, I believe it is a parable.

I believe that God made us in His own Image and that He is Spirit. Therefore we are also spirit but in miniature - children of God. The difference between us and God is that we have our own individuality and therefore we also have our own freewill. We would not have individual life if we did not have freedom to choose. And we can choose to follow Christ or not.

I believe this was away back before the foundation of the Earth and that by the abuse of freewill man has degenerated to a state where he is only a little higher than the animals, but he is meant to be a child of God.

I do not believe that freewill is associated only with the lesser self but it is in fact a very sacred gift and one which the Most High Himself does not interfere with.

Freewill is as a weapon which has a two-fold purpose, but which is used in a threefold way, because of the blindness, because of the foolishness of the children of the Earth.

Freewill was given to us so that we might choose aright with the greater, stronger self within. It was given also so that that same freewill might operate in the service of others to their advantage; that is the twofold aspect. The third is the misdirection, the abuse of the freewill, that turning from God and listening to the counsels of the enemies of the Spirit.

The freewill was given as a gift and is spiritual and is meant to be used to God's glory - God revels in the fact that His children wish to serve Him out of the overwhelming love they have for Him. It was not given merely to make a single choice of the mind and then expect that evreything we do is really Christ doing it.

In my opinion, the world as we know it will not remain as it is forever. I think that what was said in my one from last post about the Kingdom of God blossoming should be given more serious thought. I believe that because of Christ's birth, life and death, the tide is now turned irrevocably and the world will become spiritualised - He said that He came to save the world not destroy it - and as He is right because He is Truth, then we need to analyse what a saved world is.

This will take a great deal of time. And while there is clearly evil there is a great deal of good going on, more good than before Christ came among us. I say that because some people fail to realise how evil this world used to be and it was going downhill beyond help and only Christ could save it by coming when He did and offering His life in more ways than one.

Changes must take place but it will happen. Yes, there will still be sin, this is a world made out of chaos and it is only still young but there will be a stage when the majority of people will be spiritual - I believe. And sin? Why, this is something which hurts the God within and without. When people are taught properly about the God they can find through Christ then they will try so very hard never to hurt their God by breaking His laws. And this is achieved by following the Way laid down by Christ.

Heaven? What is Heaven friend? Heaven is one thing to man and another to God. Is Heaven a beautiful country where all is day and life is good? Or is Heaven seeking to serve the God Who is Love by serving His lambs, His sheep? What then is Heaven? It is where the conditions have been purified by sacrifice and service, where selfishness has been lost forever in total unity and harmony with the One Who gave us life. It is doing His Will - and there will be plenty of opportunity to do His Will my friend, of this I have no doubt. But when and how much opportunity depends on the individual and how they have lived so far - and I refer you back to Matthew and all of the teachings there. Indeed, I refer you to the main thrust of all of Christ's teachings.

So what happens to us from now? We shall all die. From there we keep our characters, they do not change overnight - what we believed and the thoughts of our minds, and the habits of our minds - all these we keep. Do we become different individuals because we die? - No, is this in any way sensible, logical, meaningful? We are still the same but not beyond change because of that same freewill. But as for the end of the physical body and arrival in another condition, the individual is just the same in personality: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

We are changed and yet not changed. We had physical bodies but now we have other types of bodies. Some will have clean, pure, light, beautiful spiritual bodies that respond to love in others and in the surroundings themselves.

Others will not resemble a human being any more, they will not even resemble an animal from Earth. They will be so deformed that there will be nothing of the Earth - as grey as it is now - that can be referred to in order to describe what that sick body is like. And whatever the owner of such a body did to others to get it into that state, all that will be performed on the owner with a precision that will shake those able to follow the career of such a one. But such evil is not performed by God - no, that individual finds himself in a place with similar individuals who have created for themselves an existence where love is absent because they reap what they have sown until it is all purged from them, and it only need be left to the imagination what a place full of monsters full of evil violence is like. But God and His angels are forever watching and waiting and listening for the first prayer to arise.

But lest this all sound gruesome, do not forget the effect that the Saviour has had on the many. His life and death - what effect! So even those who differ in their ideas of freewill and predestination and indeed salvation - these have been touched by the Master and His Law is firmly established in them as far as His teachings are concerned, even if His teachings are not understood in exactly similar ways. Once the Master has touched us with His love, we want no other Guide or Teacher - He is the Saviour indeed.

Peace.

Quote from: lastpost on May 19, 2013, 11:14:23 PM
Dear CHB, I can understand your point that you do no good works but through the Christ. T o continue from where I left off in my last post: When a person has Christ enthroned within their inner Kingdom, that person knows that only by the power of Christ could they even lift their hand an inch. But that still does not remove freewill and learning how to act in accordance with the direction of the Christ within although nothing can be done without His power.

I do not take the creation of man in Genesis literally, I believe it is a parable.

I believe that God made us in His own Image and that He is Spirit. Therefore we are also spirit but in miniature - children of God. The difference between us and God is that we have our own individuality and therefore we also have our own freewill. We would not have individual life if we did not have freedom to choose. And we can choose to follow Christ or not.

I believe this was away back before the foundation of the Earth and that by the abuse of freewill man has degenerated to a state where he is only a little higher than the animals, but he is meant to be a child of God.

I do not believe that freewill is associated only with the lesser self but it is in fact a very sacred gift and one which the Most High Himself does not interfere with.

Freewill is as a weapon which has a two-fold purpose, but which is used in a threefold way, because of the blindness, because of the foolishness of the children of the Earth.

Freewill was given to us so that we might choose aright with the greater, stronger self within. It was given also so that that same freewill might operate in the service of others to their advantage; that is the twofold aspect. The third is the misdirection, the abuse of the freewill, that turning from God and listening to the counsels of the enemies of the Spirit.

The freewill was given as a gift and is spiritual and is meant to be used to God's glory - God revels in the fact that His children wish to serve Him out of the overwhelming love they have for Him. It was not given merely to make a single choice of the mind and then expect that evreything we do is really Christ doing it.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: lastpost on May 19, 2013, 11:55:23 PM
In my opinion, the world as we know it will not remain as it is forever. I think that what was said in my one from last post about the Kingdom of God blossoming should be given more serious thought. I believe that because of Christ's birth, life and death, the tide is now turned irrevocably and the world will become spiritualised - He said that He came to save the world not destroy it - and as He is right because He is Truth, then we need to analyse what a saved world is.

This will take a great deal of time. And while there is clearly evil there is a great deal of good going on, more good than before Christ came among us. I say that because some people fail to realise how evil this world used to be and it was going downhill beyond help and only Christ could save it by coming when He did and offering His life in more ways than one.

Changes must take place but it will happen. Yes, there will still be sin, this is a world made out of chaos and it is only still young but there will be a stage when the majority of people will be spiritual - I believe. And sin? Why, this is something which hurts the God within and without. When people are taught properly about the God they can find through Christ then they will try so very hard never to hurt their God by breaking His laws. And this is achieved by following the Way laid down by Christ.

Heaven? What is Heaven friend? Heaven is one thing to man and another to God. Is Heaven a beautiful country where all is day and life is good? Or is Heaven seeking to serve the God Who is Love by serving His lambs, His sheep? What then is Heaven? It is where the conditions have been purified by sacrifice and service, where selfishness has been lost forever in total unity and harmony with the One Who gave us life. It is doing His Will - and there will be plenty of opportunity to do His Will my friend, of this I have no doubt. But when and how much opportunity depends on the individual and how they have lived so far - and I refer you back to Matthew and all of the teachings there. Indeed, I refer you to the main thrust of all of Christ's teachings.

So what happens to us from now? We shall all die. From there we keep our characters, they do not change overnight - what we believed and the thoughts of our minds, and the habits of our minds - all these we keep. Do we become different individuals because we die? - No, is this in any way sensible, logical, meaningful? We are still the same but not beyond change because of that same freewill. But as for the end of the physical body and arrival in another condition, the individual is just the same in personality: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

We are changed and yet not changed. We had physical bodies but now we have other types of bodies. Some will have clean, pure, light, beautiful spiritual bodies that respond to love in others and in the surroundings themselves.

Others will not resemble a human being any more, they will not even resemble an animal from Earth. They will be so deformed that there will be nothing of the Earth - as grey as it is now - that can be referred to in order to describe what that sick body is like. And whatever the owner of such a body did to others to get it into that state, all that will be performed on the owner with a precision that will shake those able to follow the career of such a one. But such evil is not performed by God - no, that individual finds himself in a place with similar individuals who have created for themselves an existence where love is absent because they reap what they have sown until it is all purged from them, and it only need be left to the imagination what a place full of monsters full of evil violence is like. But God and His angels are forever watching and waiting and listening for the first prayer to arise.

But lest this all sound gruesome, do not forget the effect that the Saviour has had on the many. His life and death - what effect! So even those who differ in their ideas of freewill and predestination and indeed salvation - these have been touched by the Master and His Law is firmly established in them as far as His teachings are concerned, even if His teachings are not understood in exactly similar ways. Once the Master has touched us with His love, we want no other Guide or Teacher - He is the Saviour indeed.

Peace.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I do see the creation account in genesis as literal, but I believe God speaks through His creative works to the overiding principles of His being so that we can "learn" to be as He is, a free will being acting always out of love.

The earyth was without form and void(carnal mind, not conformed to the image of Christ, empty), the Spirit hovered over the water (the kindness of God leads us to repentence, the Spirit of God will not strive with man forever), the VOICE speaks, "Let there be Light and there is light and it is good and there begins to be separation"(the light shines in the darkness and the darknes can not overcome it, the word of God is living and active and sharper than any twoedged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit bone and marrow, MAKING MANIFEST/exposing to the light- the thoughts and motives of the heart). The waters are separated, heavens divided, dry land appears- UNDERSTANDING, all by the word of God SPEAKING THROUGH THE VERY HISTORY OF ALL HIS WORKS to the consciousness of man. "For in Him we live and breath and have our being"

Nothing is hidden that will not be revealed.

All will be brought to light, every second, every minute, every year, every age a lesson that CHANGES the nature of the clay on the Potters wheel.

THESE THINGS WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR EXAMPLE, that we might not fall in the same manner of unbelief.

Bringing us into the promised rest, our Sabboth- the finished work of God, Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

For the one who has died has ceased from his own work, even as God ceased from His.

True obedience is not work, it is the willing response of love, given in hope that enters within the veil and fails not.

Lord have mercy :o)

Dear eaglesway,

Strangely enough although I view Genesis as a parable I also see the things you write as literal fact in a general sense. I see it in summary form like this: From "Life beyond the Veil - The Ministry of Heaven"

"The Christ was present in the earth Sphere when it was without form, that is when it was non-material. When matter began to be He was the Master Spirit through whom the Father wrought into orderly constellations the material universe, as now you understand it. But, although He was present, yet He Himself was also formless, and took upon Himself, not material form but spiritual form, as the universe became endued with its outer manifestation, and so took form of matter. He was behind the whole phenomena, and the whole process passed through the Christ as the ages went along and matter grew from a chaos into a cosmos. That were not possible except for some dynamic entity operating from outside and superior to the chaos, and working downwards and into that chaos. For order cannot come out of what is lacking in order except by the addition of a new ingredient. It was the contact of the Christ Sphere with chaos that resulted in the cosmos.

"Chaos was matter in potential state. Cosmos is matter realised. But, this being so, matter as realised is but the phenomenal effect of that dynamic energy which, added to inertia, produced motion. Motion itself is the sum of the activities of will considered potentially. Will, passing from the potential state into its realisation, becomes motion regulated according to the quality of that particular will which is its creator. Hence the Creator of all, working through the Christ, produced, after ages of continuous urge, the cosmos.

"Christ was in the material universe from its inception and, that being so, He was in the earth sphere also while it gradually assumed first materiality and then form and last became, in its own turn interpreter of the meaning of the work of the ages which had become articulate, at length, in Earth's genesis. That is, it reproduced from itself the principle of creation and gave it expression. For from Earth came forth mineral and vegetable and animal forms of life-expression. See you, in what this eventuates? It means no less than that Earth and the whole Cosmos of matter is the Body of Christ.

"This is the Christ Who was One with the Father and, being One with the Father, was of the Father's Selfhood. Jesus of Nazareth was the expression of the thought of the Father, incarnate as the Christ for the Earth's salvation. So that we say to you, the Christ Who came to Galilee was but the Earth-expression of the Christ Universal, but true Christ withal. Now let us come to an end, albeit we have told you not a tithe of the glorious and splendid tale of the rhyme and rhythm of the aeons and their birth and marriage and their bringing forth of suns who smile upon their own lesser children to-day.

"The Christ then, descended with matter as matter descended - by precipitation, if you will - out of the energising of spirit dynamics. He was embodied in mineral life, for by Him all matter consists. He was embosomed in the rose and the lily, and all vegetable life was the life of Him by means of Whom their beauty and wonder came forth of matter moving onward towards reason, but, at the highest, only touching the hem of the garment of rational activity. And He became manifest also in the animal life of the earth, for animals, as man, are of His evolving. The highest expression of His will was mankind. And in due time He came forth of the invisible into the visible world. He, Who had made man, was Himself made man. He, by Whom man came to be and to persist, thought forward into matter, and His thought took on expression in Jesus of Nazareth. So He Who was the Anointed Agent of the Creator for the making of man, Himself became the Son of Man whom He had made."

Peace.

Quote from: lastpostSo what happens to us from now? We shall all die. From there we keep our characters, they do not change overnight - what we believed and the thoughts of our minds, and the habits of our minds - all these we keep. Do we become different individuals because we die? - No, is this in any way sensible, logical, meaningful? We are still the same but not beyond change because of that same freewill. But as for the end of the physical body and arrival in another condition, the individual is just the same in personality: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

We are changed and yet not changed. We had physical bodies but now we have other types of bodies. Some will have clean, pure, light, beautiful spiritual bodies that respond to love in others and in the surroundings themselves.

Others will not resemble a human being any more, they will not even resemble an animal from Earth. They will be so deformed that there will be nothing of the Earth - as grey as it is now - that can be referred to in order to describe what that sick body is like. And whatever the owner of such a body did to others to get it into that state, all that will be performed on the owner with a precision that will shake those able to follow the career of such a one. But such evil is not performed by God - no, that individual finds himself in a place with similar individuals who have created for themselves an existence where love is absent because they reap what they have sown until it is all purged from them, and it only need be left to the imagination what a place full of monsters full of evil violence is like. But God and His angels are forever watching and waiting and listening for the first prayer to arise.

Scripture for the part I bolded?


I don't consider the book of Revelation to be the final word on the matter, just the final word on this Age.

I consider 1 Cor 15 to be more so the final word on the matter,

This will not happen for ages to come:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

--1 Cor 15


Even the book of Revelation, giving us a glimpse into the next age, does not yet see death conquered or God as all in all yet.


Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



PS I am one of the few here who reads the Bible literally.

Dear Molly,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your noble stance for placing your belief system in a faith that words on Earth can portray a spiritual reality. I am informed that it is forbidden to try to dislodge a person from what they hold true to the Saviour as it is their heart and their motive which is of primary importance to God.

Unfortunately, if one is to take everything literally then one cannot understand that human words are not capable of capturing non-physical states. So when a "prisoner" is spoken about in say, 1 Peter 3:18-20 or when a violator of God's laws is "delivered to the jailer" "until ("ewv": passing of time - Matt. 18:34) or when there is much "gnashing of teeth" in a place devoid of God's love, then there is a limit to what our writers of the Bible can achieve. Also, as I have written in this thread earlier, I believe that God is revealed in greater abundance as the eras unfold and therefore for those who seek, they shall find that revelation. But that is an aside Molly, believe me, I have the greatest respect for your belief system as it brings to you the love of Christ is clearly a large proportion.

24 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

This wonderful time, in my opinion, is when spiritual death has been conquered, not physical death - this is when the Saviour :"Shall see the travail of His soul".

But this is not the same time as when violators of God's laws enter those awful states and conditions which are graphically described in a way to encompass an idea of what a second death for such violators is like! I believe that a performer of evil dies a physical "death" and then enters a "second death" which is worse than the physical death - and this is where you will find those who have deformed soul bodies "residing" as prisoners.

The important thing is that a person follows the Christ Way.

Peace.

 

Quote from: LastpostThank you for your input. I appreciate your noble stance for placing your belief system in a faith that words on Earth can portray a spiritual reality.

Yes, I guess I do believe that.  And, I also believe the word can become flesh.  In both we have a meeting of heaven and earth, my fondest desire.  :dsunny:

Quote from: lastpost on May 19, 2013, 11:14:23 PM
Dear CHB, I can understand your point that you do no good works but through the Christ. T o continue from where I left off in my last post: When a person has Christ enthroned within their inner Kingdom, that person knows that only by the power of Christ could they even lift their hand an inch. But that still does not remove freewill and learning how to act in accordance with the direction of the Christ within although nothing can be done without His power.

I do not take the creation of man in Genesis literally, I believe it is a parable.

I believe that God made us in His own Image and that He is Spirit. Therefore we are also spirit but in miniature - children of God. The difference between us and God is that we have our own individuality and therefore we also have our own freewill. We would not have individual life if we did not have freedom to choose. And we can choose to follow Christ or not.

I believe this was away back before the foundation of the Earth and that by the abuse of freewill man has degenerated to a state where he is only a little higher than the animals, but he is meant to be a child of God.

I do not believe that freewill is associated only with the lesser self but it is in fact a very sacred gift and one which the Most High Himself does not interfere with.

Freewill is as a weapon which has a two-fold purpose, but which is used in a threefold way, because of the blindness, because of the foolishness of the children of the Earth.

Freewill was given to us so that we might choose aright with the greater, stronger self within. It was given also so that that same freewill might operate in the service of others to their advantage; that is the twofold aspect. The third is the misdirection, the abuse of the freewill, that turning from God and listening to the counsels of the enemies of the Spirit.

The freewill was given as a gift and is spiritual and is meant to be used to God's glory - God revels in the fact that His children wish to serve Him out of the overwhelming love they have for Him. It was not given merely to make a single choice of the mind and then expect that evreything we do is really Christ doing it.

I have to say I totally disagree with you on this. Jesus said "of mine own self I CAN DO NOTHING?  Are we given more will than him? There is so much I could say on this but there is a thread on here that pretty much covers it all.

Freewill means without any restraints, compulsions, freedom of choice.  I think for God to have given us freewill would be negligence on his part. We are sheep, children, created in sinful flesh. A loving, caring, smart parent would not leave their children to figure things out for themselves, that would be negligence on their part.

(Eph. 2:10 For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALKI IN THEM.

So, God already decided that we should walk in good works.

CHB

Quote from: lastpost on May 18, 2013, 12:15:42 AM

Concerning the end of the "world" or the "tribulation", I take the Preterist viewpoint.

The Rev. John Wesley Hanson D.D. explains in his book: "aion - aionios, Translated Everlasting - Eternal In The Holy Bible, Shown To Denote Limited Duration".

"The events here described took place in this world within thirty years of the time when Jesus spoke. They are now past. In Matt. xxiv:4, the disciples asked our Lord when the then existing age would end. The word (aion) is unfortunately translated world. Had he meant world he would have employed kosmos, which means world, as aion does not. After describing the particulars he announced that they would all be fulfilled, and the aion end in that generation, before some of his auditors should die. If he was correct the end came then. And this is demonstrated by a careful study of the entire discourse, running through Matthew xxiv and xxv. The disciples asked Jesus how they should know his coming and the end of the age. They did not inquire concerning the end of the actual world, as it is incorrectly translated, but age. This question Jesus answered by describing the signs so that they, his questioners, the disciples themselves, might perceive the approach of the end of the Jewish dispensation (aion). He speaks fifteen times in the discourse of his speedy coming, (Matt. xxiv:3, 27, 30, 37, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50, and xxv:6, 10, 13, 19, 27, 31). He addresses those who shall be alive at his coming. Matt. xxiv:6. "Ye shall hear of wars, etc." 20. "Pray that your flight be not in the winter." 33, 34. "So likewise when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"Campbell, Clarke, Wakefield, and Newton (Com. in loc.) translate the phrase, end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos) "conclusion of the age," "end of this dispensation." The question was, then, what shall indicate thy second coming and the end of the Mosaic economy (aion)? "When shall all these things be fulfilled?" Mark xiii:1, 34. He spoke of the temple (Luke xxi:5, 7,) saying one stone should not be left on another, and the question of his disciples was, how shall we know when this is to take place? The answer is, "Ye shall hear of wars." xxiv:6. "Ye shall see the abomination of desolation." 15. "Pray that your flight be not in winter." 20. The adverbs "Then" and "When" connect all the events related in the two chapters in one unbroken series. And what infallible token did he give that these events would occur "then?" Matt. xxiv:34. "Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What things? The "son of man coming in his glory in the clouds," and the end of the existing aion, or age. Mark phrases it: "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See Luke xxi:25, 32. This whole account is a parable describing the end of the Jewish aion, age, or economy, signalized by the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment if the new aion, world, or age to come, that is the Christian dispensation. Now on the authority of Jesus himself the aion then existing ended within a generation, namely, about A.D. 70. Hence those who were sent away into aionion punishment, or the punishment of that aion, were sent into a condition corresponding in duration to the meaning of the word aion, i.e., age-lasting. A punishment cannot be endless, when defined by an adjective derived from a noun describing an event, the end of which is distinctly stated to have come".

Even for those who are not Preterists, an informative book to read is The Destruction of Jerusalem  (http://the%20destruction%20of%20jerusalem)http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm)

However, beyond the physical viewpoint of the phsyical facts above which are clearly demonstrable, I view so-named "end times" another way, what I consider to be a spiritual representation of the "end times".

The end times apply to the internal state of the individual - each one individually, not a final tribulation for those who are alive on earth at some future time, but as applied to each one when they come to physically die. The very beginning of Revelations states that the time is imminent (eggus), referring to the imminent physical death of each one. This is what God is concerned with and why the warnings are so severe - a blackened soul is something that nobody desires except perhaps others with blackened souls.

Quote from: lastpost
Thus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

I have never heard this explaination before, it is really interesting. 

Quote from: lastpost
These are the last days of the individual, and material goods are of no use at all at such a time so it is no use looking to them for comfort. The soul is already existing in the condition which reflects its state of spiritual health, and all such conditions coexist with each other. Indeed, "now is the time" that every action, thought and desire affects the state of health of the soul body (spiritual body) - even now.

This is the moment that Paul was really talking about to the Corinthians when unfolding a "mystery" that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51,52)" and that "the last trumpet call" is in fact the spiritual transition for the individual when his earthly life is finally ended, not at "the end of the world".

This then, is how Jesus could say: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24:34)". All of the things Jesus spoke of regarding destruction would be witnessed by those standing there in the flesh - that generation to whom Christ was talking, the generation living at the time Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the flesh - and woe betide he who had not lived the Christ Way!

Concerning the so-named "end times", it is much more important to God that the individual - i.e. every individual who lives and dies - is following the Law of Love, the true Law of the God Who is Love. The true and most important truth to Christ Jesus spoken from His own mouth is: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like (homoios => resembling) it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets". These commandments are so utterly and vitally important that the Great Teacher emphasises the point: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13:34). There is nothing more important to God than these truths spoken from the mouth of Christ - nothing - if there were so, He would have said it Himself. And He is Truth. Man tries to make other things more important than Christ's own teachings until it becomes itself truth in the minds of generations. Humanity needs Christ to return as He is meant to be.

Peace.

I agree with all of this.

CHB

Dear CHB,

It is good to hear from you. I remember writing recently elsewhere that people can be speaking of the same truth and yet they do not say the same thing.

30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

This context is, among other things, Christ proclaiming His identity as the Son of God and how what He did was His Father's will.

But this does not mean that He did not have the choice to do other things. Of course, as the Christ of God made man, being perfect and pure He would always do the Father's will and would overcome everything - could only ever overcome everything - as the Power of the Godhead flowed through Him like a giant sun.

As the Christ He had a pure Soul and would overcome everything through willpower - the freedom to choose to overcome or not to overcome.

Looking at an example, we can see that Jesus Christ had freewill. In the Garden of Gethsemane when He sweated blood through His ordeal, around Him had gathered armies of evil in countless numbers for they did not want Him to go to the Cross - and He saw them as His sight was fully released. He had to go through with the deed and He let us know the depths of His despair by asking the Father the possibility of the cup being taken from Him.

39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt".

But Jesus Christ is a special and unique case of course - He would always do the Father's will because He was perfect and so could not do otherwise. And yet He let us know that He was reluctant to go through with it all. A lesser man would have failed (although such circumstances could not come to a lesser man, only Christ).

Those of us who are not pure, we fail on occasions to overcome. It is at those times that we have not used our freedom to choose properly. If we have failed our better selves then we cannot in any circumstances say that it was Christ working in us or we would be saying that Christ failed to overcome.

Freedom to choose aright. Freedom to choose sinfully. Freewill.

God cannot learn our lessons for us. If He could then He would - but that is not His way. We must learn our own lessons so that we use our freewill as it was intended when He first gave it.

He gave us individuality - He gave us life, a spirit all our own to nurture and care for - yet made out of Himself because we truly are His children in Spirit. That is how Divine Love gives - lavishly. God gives of Himself.

As we become (ginomai - process) more fashioned to the likeness of Christ, we shall no longer misuse the freewill. That time has been ordained by God from the beginning.

Peace.

"And, I also believe the word can become flesh.  In both we have a meeting of heaven and earth, my fondest desire."

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-rapture-of-the-church/msg156752/#msg156752

And the Word became flesh. Ah, such a sacred subject, so holy, so wondrous, so beyond the human mind to take in fully.

The One who could only speak perfection, the One who was Truth in human form - the most accessible, approachable form of Truth available to man - Truth Personified, the One who through His Divine purity would save the world through His life and death, through His example and teachings, through being the Word to His children wandering about in darkness, blind to their own folly.

I was rather talking about an inability to express something which is not of the material universe, which simply has no way to be described - or rather where the description must be inadequate because it comes from a place which is not earthly and where not even earthly words are used...

Hi lastpost,

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this freewill thing.  For it is God who WORKS IN YOU BOTH to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.  :gimmefive:

I thought what you said about two being in the bed and two being in the field was very interesting, I am going to have to re-study this one. Makes sense.

CHB

QuoteThus, when Christ is reported to have been speaking of there being two bodies in the same place - at the same time, and doing the same thing - He was referring to the physical body and the spiritual body of one individual, which coexist with each other ("There is a natural body, and there is* a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44 *esti => is => present tense). One will be taken (the spiritual body), and one shall be left behind, being fit now only to feed carrion birds (the physical body): "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34-37). How easily explained these so-called great mysteries become when the truth about the spiritual transition (anastasis => a raising/rising up, anastasiseknekros => "a raising up out of one that has breathed his last") is understood. (As an aside, as it can be hard for some to come to grips with understanding the spiritual transition concerning Christ Jesus, it is no surprise that He, having left the Cross in His spirit (1 Pet.3:18-20) could easily appear and reappear to people in different places, lower His vibrations so that He could be touched without causing harm, as would have happened had Mary Magdalene touched Him in a highly spiritualised state).

Lastpost   you are so helpful ! 
You said in ways I understand but not able to explain it ! 
I know by faith   that every  body [spiritual born again of  Spirit and Truth ]  is that  ''part '' of Christ  , thats being formed into Making the Whole [Church His own Body ]   and it is what rises  up and goes into  the place prepared by the Father to receive it   , the Christ /annoited and appointed  building stone to the ROCK SOLID , not moved Mount Sion  ,  that I go to prepare a place for you and where I am you maybe also       .. 

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 


Col 1:24 ¶ Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 


Col 1:25   Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 


Col 1:26   [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 


Col 1:27   To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 


Col 1:28   Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect[complete,  done ] in Christ Jesus: 


Col 1:29   Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. 

Dear CHB

Differences of opinion will be almost meaningless to us, perhaps not so distant in the future as some may think!

:gimmefive:

Dear rosered,

You are kind and helpful and all of you good people.

"If ever the silver chord be loosed then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."

Personally, I have no doubt that Genesis is a parable.

This afternoon I went on a guided walk to one of the local archaeological sites. This site had a number of different human encampments which lived at very different times because of the levels at which their teeth and bones etc. were found. It would have taken many tens of thousands of years to create such layers of dust, mud, sand etc. This is by my rough assessment due to knowing at what physical level two thousand years ago was when the Romans occupied this place due to the Roman remains. These other places were very far away from the Roman times, it is one of those things that has to be seen to understand I think.

In archaeological terms this site:

QuoteStands as the principle cornerstone in our understanding of the Middle Palaeolithic of northern Europe

Produced in excess of a quarter of a million recorded finds

Holds an unparalleled, unbroken record of human activity and palaeoenvironmental presence/absence in northern Europe spanning in excess of 250,000 years

The most comprehensive database of Neanderthal behavioural development through Achuelean, Early Middle Palaeolithic and Mousterian phases

Now, those terms are not known to me. I just happen to have been born here and so went on the guided tour.

One thing I can say is that I have known the beach where this site is for nearly half a century and it has not risen or sunk one millimetre. And yet the various levels which I could visibly see where different human civilisations have been found (they liked a cave for shelter obviously) would have taken, by my calculations of how long the beach I know has not moved and where the Roman layer is - well, tens of thousands of years if not hundreds of thousands to have reached those levels.

The thing I reckon is that one actually has to stand there and look at the different levels of settlements 50 or 60 feet up in the air before the cliff erosion to see it for real and come to the assessment that this did not happen over just a few thousand years.

I suppose it is just where I live that gives me this perspective.

This does not in any way interfere with my understanding of God's reconciliation of all to Himself. I have always believed Genesis to be a parable and today's little trip simply confirms it for me from my own perspective and viewpoint. Are we any less God's children if Genesis is a parable? I say absolutely not.

God's Christ has reconciled this world to Himself and it is only a question of time before His purpose of the aeons is achieved.

Peace.

Hi lp.  Would you care to talk a little more about the parabolic nature of Genesis.  And micah, I believe I've seen you reference that as well, and have wondered about it.  Do you believe every single detail is parable, certain parts, over-all, etc.?  * If you guys and others wish to elaborate on this topic, it can be split off into its own topic later and go from there.   :thumbsup:

I also agree with the few thousand years thing.  I DON'T believe in Darwinian macro evolution.  I believe in creation.  As I've stated before, I believe "God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is".  But I also believe there are mysteries we don't know.  I've considered a sort of "gap theory"  :eek: ("HERETIC!!") , but bottom line, I'm just not sure.  It just seems to me Eternal God was "doing something" prior to a literal 7,000 years ago.  :2c:

Hi jabcat,

In simple terms,
I personally believe that God's children were made in the Image of God as Spirit.
Thus God's children in essence were perfect but as individuals they were not complete in experience or knowledge.
The knowledge had to come slowly, very slowly through experience. God desired to give His children everything He could but He could not give it to them because it was too much power.
And so He asked His children not to grab at the power and to have patience.
And I think that from Genesis we can all see that man was tempted with power.
From that moment, man fell from Perfection and down and down he went, further and further away from Perfection until there was a human fleshly form into which his spirit could enter, live life and repent by hearing the Gospel of Christ Jesus which make him right with his God once again and no more would he grab at power that he was not ready for.

Peace.

OK, thanks.  I'll "digest" things a bit and maybe some others will reply as well.

In my opinion, only now is immortality truly coming to light amongst men - the immortality that Christ brought.

It is this grand truth after which other associated noble truths follow. That man can live forever - this has been an article of faith. Now, it becomes a fact of knowledge with which man shall live. And that makes quite a difference towards his future and how he abides...

Quote from: lastpost on July 13, 2013, 09:46:28 PM
Personally, I have no doubt that Genesis is a parable.

This afternoon I went on a guided walk to one of the local archaeological sites. This site had a number of different human encampments which lived at very different times because of the levels at which their teeth and bones etc. were found. It would have taken many tens of thousands of years to create such layers of dust, mud, sand etc. This is by my rough assessment due to knowing at what physical level two thousand years ago was when the Romans occupied this place due to the Roman remains. These other places were very far away from the Roman times, it is one of those things that has to be seen to understand I think.

In archaeological terms this site:

QuoteStands as the principle cornerstone in our understanding of the Middle Palaeolithic of northern Europe

Produced in excess of a quarter of a million recorded finds

Holds an unparalleled, unbroken record of human activity and palaeoenvironmental presence/absence in northern Europe spanning in excess of 250,000 years

The most comprehensive database of Neanderthal behavioural development through Achuelean, Early Middle Palaeolithic and Mousterian phases

Now, those terms are not known to me. I just happen to have been born here and so went on the guided tour.

One thing I can say is that I have known the beach where this site is for nearly half a century and it has not risen or sunk one millimetre. And yet the various levels which I could visibly see where different human civilisations have been found (they liked a cave for shelter obviously) would have taken, by my calculations of how long the beach I know has not moved and where the Roman layer is - well, tens of thousands of years if not hundreds of thousands to have reached those levels.

The thing I reckon is that one actually has to stand there and look at the different levels of settlements 50 or 60 feet up in the air before the cliff erosion to see it for real and come to the assessment that this did not happen over just a few thousand years.

I suppose it is just where I live that gives me this perspective.

This does not in any way interfere with my understanding of God's reconciliation of all to Himself. I have always believed Genesis to be a parable and today's little trip simply confirms it for me from my own perspective and viewpoint. Are we any less God's children if Genesis is a parable? I say absolutely not.

God's Christ has reconciled this world to Himself and it is only a question of time before His purpose of the aeons is achieved.

Peace.

Good very good! Genesis, a parable,it may not be so, but as a parable it makes the written a lot more understanding, but then again....... :dsunny:

I currently think that the pre-tribulational rapture is true. The main reasons are:

1. In 1 Thess. 5, Paul said that the "day of the Lord" (which, following the context from Ch. 4 would seem to mean the time of the Rapture) would come when people were saying "peace and safety," and then destruction would come. At the end of the tribulation (or even the middle of the tribulation), I don't imagine anybody declaring peace.

2. When Jesus returns to the earth in Matthew 25, the righteous and the unrighteous are interspersed, and Jesus has to separate them on earth. In the event of 1 Thess. 4, the righteous are separated by being caught up into the air.

3. I tend to agree with the dispensationalists that since God's program in the last seven years of this age seems to involve Israel specifically in many ways, the Church administration (under which their is neither Jew nor Greek) would need to come to a close before then.

4. The main issue I see with mid-tribulationism and the pre-wrath/three-quarters theory is that in the prophesies of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and Revelations, the saints on earth during the first half of the tribulation are portrayed as being on earth (if they survive) until Christ returns to set up the Kingdom.

5. Because Paul said that the day of the Lord would come after the man of lawlessness was revealed, I have considered the possibility of an "early-70th week" Rapture that would occur after the Antichrist signs the covenant with Israel but before the judgments upon the world get underway.

Feel free to share your critique of the points above.

 Paul said, "For this we have to say to you by the word of the Lord, we who are alive and remaining till the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shal be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the heaven....."1 Thess 4

This corresponds with the Lords own words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the son of man will apear in the heavens and all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory. Then He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet to gather His elect from the four winds." Matt 24

Paul again, "Behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumet- for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

John said, "Brethren, now we are the children of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we will be like Him(changed) for we shall see Him as He is."(1 John 3)

and "Then I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to them and I saw those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not received the mark of the beast on their forehead or on their hand and they cam to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years was ended. This is the first resurrection." Rev 20

These verses, along with some others- make five things appear fairly clear to me :

1) They are all speaking of the first resurrection first resurrection

2) the second advent (coming/descending/appearing/day of the Lord) and the first resurrection occur simultaneously

3)The gathering of the elect will happen closely AFTER the first resurrection.

4)This will happen after both the manifestation of the lawless one AND the tribulation of those days

5)It is a mystery and no one fully understands it

I think it matters less how a person perceives this eschatologically, but rather a person overcomes the temptations he faces and does not commit those sins. I believe that is more important to Jesus Christ.

I see a variety of ways of Christ's return.

In a nutshell, the mentioning of Jesus returning and separating of the righteous and the unrighteous is an analogy to me of what happens at the death of the individual. The life has now been lived so Jesus is there at death with his angels, and if the life is righteous then upwards goes that individual in his spiritual body to a heaven or one of the many habitations or abiding places that Christ mentioned. This is the twinkling-of-an-eye change. And the converse is true at this time of Jesus returning in this way - off the unrighteous go to their own place of further pruning.

To me Revelations, in general, is a severe warning about the end coming to the individual after having lived a life on earth, and Jesus coming quickly to judge in the same manner as above, and some must continue in further purging. There is no change at physical death, it is too late now and so he who is filthy in his mind and soul, let him stay filthy and unrighteous and off to an aeonial pruning he goes.

The return of Christ in His true and proper Glory I believe also will happen but not in the way traditionally thought. I believe He will come at the end of the aeon but that will be a time when enough people on earth in the flesh want Him to come in His Glory, to see Him and be with Him out of love for Him - not out of the desire for Him to judge, that is all very human! He has been judging all the time during each life and also that final judgement already mentioned at the end of the person's earthly life.

This blessed time will see a more loving form of human being in the flesh on earth and while there will still be some doubters and scoffers, they will be confounded.

That is it in my opinion in a nutshell. It is the gist of it anyway.

Peace.

I like that opinion, and I also believe eschcatology is less important than walking in His ways. That said, I enjoy discussing eschatology and I believe it is in the word, so it is worthy of discussion.....but not necessarily worthy of debate.

I believe that when a person dies, they will wake up either at the first resurrection, or at the second.....unless they are a prat of that generation that sees His return, which I believe will be both a historical and universal spiritual event, beyond the grasp of our imaginations.

The more I have been led to read and study the Bible I find I Thes. is not as important as it once was in my walk.
Mat 25:13  `Watch(be awake) therefore, for ye have not known the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man doth come.

Yet there is so much ado about the "how and when", that the truth of the Word and His teaching is set aside.
Mat 26:44  So He left them, and went away once more and prayed a third time, again using the same words.
Mat 26:45  Then He came to the disciples and said, "Sleep on and rest. See, the moment is close at hand when the Son of Man is to be betrayed into the hands of sinful men.

QuoteI find Lastpost refreshing.

  Oh so do I !!  sleep for sorrow ! 
Jesus also spoke of the parable of the  3 seeds / WORD  of God falling on   the ground /our hearts  and those types and shadows 
I Believe its  important to think spiritual and not carnal when   reading the Word of God
   the literal  is the writen   word  that all   are given 
the Spoken word has life in  them  , by the breath of God , this is  the Holy Spirit to me
and the Living Word is when   the greater works    the 30 , and 60   fold for the Kingdom   are giving God the Glory !!    Just as   Jesus come to show us how its done perfectly

   look at  the 3 seed types   and how they die dormant in us !  only to be born again 

  there is a simplicity in Christ thats beautiful    and awakening  in our Spirit    that is of Gods Spirit though Christ and His  work    that also gives the soul purpose  /life in mankind
     
  the Cross is   the turning point     in what Jesus was talking about in Matt 24  , but it MUST  be  done in each one of us
  the open   writen Word shows us what to expect      when reading , the  Spoken Word is the quickening    in us when we hear Jesus  speak to us and  hear His Voice , the Living Word is when  the obedience    actually  begins to produce fruit  to God
  this is all my own opinion        because this is how it went for me personally 

  I am convinced its personal and no man can tell me differently 
because   that is How the   Father seeks us to worship Him in Spirit and truth  , no man  knows how he is changed , its Gods Glory that  changes us

   look if you would at a few other places in the Word of God   thats  ALIVE    dividing and seperating   things in us and one IN   one another   to His purpose and glory
  Hebrews  4 :12      describes the living in us  that is only the Son right now and   gathered into Him  , hidden in Christ ,  the annoited by the Spririt and Truth

QuotePaul said, "For this we have to say to you by the word of the Lord, we who are alive and remaining till the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shal be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the heaven....."1 Thess 4

This corresponds with the Lords own words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the son of man will apear in the heavens and all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory. Then He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet to gather His elect from the four winds." Matt 24

Paul again, "Behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumet- for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

shall not proceed   those asleep  , because they are still in Christ  , there is no all in all yet , 
  but those with Him are risen in HIM      , THOSE CLOUDS / WITNESSES OF GLORY    are  with Him in Him   yet

ALIVE and remain in Him those faithful , whom believed in the Son of God , this is why they are ALIVE  in Christ    the purpose of Gods glory , that is the reward, Jesus IS the Reward 

  the sun darkened     , this is when Jesus become sin for us  , this is the  individual   becoming sin that we are awakened and realize  ,  what Jesus done for us on the personal  level    and      He died for YOU  and your sins    ,  you cannot blame  the Jews or  Judas  anyone else   , but your sins  only  that crucified Christ    , the second time He returns is without sin ,    this visitation is  when you are alive and are seated with Christ in heavely places you  now have the mind of Christ    seated in His proper place  and you are with Him  gathering  Not scattering
 
  and the moon   does not give her light  , that the lawless one is revealed in us   , turns to blood , its the shedding of the innocent blood of the Lamb  , that   by His breasth  Holy Spirit and Fire is destroyed and   we are changed in the twinkling of an eye  , this single Eye is the mind of Christ  , the Eye of  LIGHT   of doing the   good  and living   works and not evil and dead works

and  the stars fall    angels /  messengers     in the earth  the darkness of ignorance ,
when Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning    the adversary    in all whom sit on that seat  of authority    in every city set on a hill      , the ruler   of night      that the law  of Moses  /  the ruler of the night  shadow of   the good things to come  only puts to death , the ministration of death     , its Jesus whom   springs forth new LIFE to give it to God   in all of us

and Satan is bound in our earth   , Paul  tells us in Romans  7     , how that seperating happens to us all ! , because it was happening to him !!!      evil was present in Him    for the destrution of his own flesh    , to keep Him  humble   and dependant  on Christ   and Christ /His return   to save the rest of him  , deliver him from the body of death    at the point of literal death  of the mortal body 
   though He was alive  in the imortal Body of Christ being clothed upon   /covered   in grace and faith    to salvation

Adam   was  asleep /death    spiritually   and seperated to God because of sin    the minute he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil   and the dust  / mortal body was given over   to the serpent for food for the destruction of his own flesh  , that suffering is  appointed to every man
 
and the suffering in Christ is   the Spirit  and Life that dies daily to  make  us understand the difference between   the mortal   and imortal  of the seperating   between the soul and Spirit in every one  , a  dead  one produces dead works  and a live one produces Live works
  the difference between God  in us and    a  man of sin  in us 

  God does the seperating    to His own Glory  , none can take that for himself  , its not possible

Quote from: rosered on July 14, 2013, 06:06:32 PM

QuoteI find Lastpost refreshing.

  Oh so do I !!  sleep for sorrow ! 
Jesus also spoke of the parable of the  3 seeds / WORD  of God falling on   the ground /our hearts  and those types and shadows 
I Believe its  important to think spiritual and not carnal when   reading the Word of God
   the literal  is the writen   word  that all   are given 
the Spoken word has life in  them  , by the breath of God , this is  the Holy Spirit to me
and the Living Word is when   the greater works    the 30 , and 60   fold for the Kingdom   are giving God the Glory !!    Just as   Jesus come to show us how its done perfectly

   look at  the 3 seed types   and how they die dormant in us !  only to be born again 

  there is a simplicity in Christ thats beautiful    and awakening  in our Spirit    that is of Gods Spirit though Christ and His  work    that also gives the soul purpose  /life in mankind
     
  the Cross is   the turning point     in what Jesus was talking about in Matt 24  , but it MUST  be  done in each one of us
  the open   writen Word shows us what to expect      when reading , the  Spoken Word is the quickening    in us when we hear Jesus  speak to us and  hear His Voice , the Living Word is when  the obedience    actually  begins to produce fruit  to God
  this is all my own opinion        because this is how it went for me personally 

  I am convinced its personal and no man can tell me differently 
because   that is How the   Father seeks us to worship Him in Spirit and truth  , no man  knows how he is changed , its Gods Glory that  changes us

   look if you would at a few other places in the Word of God   thats  ALIVE    dividing and seperating   things in us and one IN   one another   to His purpose and glory
  Hebrews  4 :12      describes the living in us  that is only the Son right now and   gathered into Him  , hidden in Christ ,  the annoited by the Spririt and Truth

QuotePaul said, "For this we have to say to you by the word of the Lord, we who are alive and remaining till the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shal be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the heaven....."1 Thess 4

This corresponds with the Lords own words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the son of man will apear in the heavens and all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory. Then He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet to gather His elect from the four winds." Matt 24

Paul again, "Behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumet- for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

shall not proceed   those asleep  , because they are still in Christ  , there is no all in all yet , 
  but those with Him are risen in HIM      , THOSE CLOUDS / WITNESSES OF GLORY    are  with Him in Him   yet

ALIVE and remain in Him those faithful , whom believed in the Son of God , this is why they are ALIVE  in Christ    the purpose of Gods glory , that is the reward, Jesus IS the Reward 

  the sun darkened     , this is when Jesus become sin for us  , this is the  individual   becoming sin that we are awakened and realize  ,  what Jesus done for us on the personal  level    and      He died for YOU  and your sins    ,  you cannot blame  the Jews or  Judas  anyone else   , but your sins  only  that crucified Christ    , the second time He returns is without sin ,    this visitation is  when you are alive and are seated with Christ in heavely places you  now have the mind of Christ    seated in His proper place  and you are with Him  gathering  Not scattering
 
  and the moon   does not give her light  , that the lawless one is revealed in us   , turns to blood , its the shedding of the innocent blood of the Lamb  , that   by His breasth  Holy Spirit and Fire is destroyed and   we are changed in the twinkling of an eye  , this single Eye is the mind of Christ  , the Eye of  LIGHT   of doing the   good  and living   works and not evil and dead works

and  the stars fall    angels /  messengers     in the earth  the darkness of ignorance ,
when Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning    the adversary    in all whom sit on that seat  of authority    in every city set on a hill      , the ruler   of night      that the law  of Moses  /  the ruler of the night  shadow of   the good things to come  only puts to death , the ministration of death     , its Jesus whom   springs forth new LIFE to give it to God   in all of us

and Satan is bound in our earth   , Paul  tells us in Romans  7     , how that seperating happens to us all ! , because it was happening to him !!!      evil was present in Him    for the destrution of his own flesh    , to keep Him  humble   and dependant  on Christ   and Christ /His return   to save the rest of him  , deliver him from the body of death    at the point of literal death  of the mortal body 
   though He was alive  in the imortal Body of Christ being clothed upon   /covered   in grace and faith    to salvation

Adam   was  asleep /death    spiritually   and seperated to God because of sin    the minute he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil   and the dust  / mortal body was given over   to the serpent for food for the destruction of his own flesh  , that suffering is  appointed to every man
 
and the suffering in Christ is   the Spirit  and Life that dies daily to  make  us understand the difference between   the mortal   and imortal  of the seperating   between the soul and Spirit in every one  , a  dead  one produces dead works  and a live one produces Live works
  the difference between God  in us and    a  man of sin  in us 

  God does the seperating    to His own Glory  , none can take that for himself  , its not possible

Words mean something and I know when you wrote, " ..this is when Jesus become sin for us ..." You meant Jesus became a sin-offering, He did not become sin, ever. I mean no offence, but it jumped out at me. :HeartThrob:

QuoteWords mean something and I know when you wrote, " ..this is when Jesus become sin for us ..." You meant Jesus became a sin-offering, He did not become sin, ever. I mean no offence, but it jumped out at me.

No offence taken Micah , :thumbsup:
  its all a matter of how we percieve  , you are right he    was the sin offering  , the Lamb of God without spot 

  but He gave his soul   as the sin offering   that we might have life 

  I  have some written  scriptures that has to be reconciled to
 
when He cried out  and asked  Father why have you forsaken me  , 
that God could not look upon sin , proving   that     He did become sin for us

  this is just mine own  beliefs   and no one has to   believe me

  and this

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

  and there is more
  but pressed for time 
my son is visiting from   the Air force from Alaska and will not be and have not  been on here because of the wonderful visit from him

  But I  was blessed to read this post today and felt it move  within and  loved it !!quickining  a part  that has to witness to it 
thanks to all whom contributed    to this  thread   
 
Heard that when the Spirit moves the flesh becomes silent   
, when the flesh moves the Spirit becomes silent   
I kind of believe that    ,  seems we are in one state of being or the other   at all times
in our realms of thoughts  :dsunny:

IMO
Sin is separation from God
Jesus walked this earth knowing that he was not separate from God.
I believed he carried in his mind of flesh that he could be separated from God.
A thought that can only be had in the mind of the flesh.
God is all knowing .
The only way you can be forsaken by God ( who does not really forsake).
The mind of the flesh can convince us we are forsaken.
Jesus first fruits rises from the dead.
With faith now we can over come the flesh mind.
No matter how many joints you smoke during communion.
God will never forsake you or your neighbor.

A little leaven goes a long way.
I have to go now and have a shower I am taking a message to some one,
and they won't believe the message unless the messenger is clean.
It helps to concentrate completely on keeping clean.

Quote from: dajomaco on July 14, 2013, 08:54:38 PM
IMO
Sin is separation from God
Jesus walked this earth knowing that he was not separate from God.
I believed he carried in his mind of flesh that he could be separated from God.
A thought that can only be had in the mind of the flesh.
God is all knowing .
The only way you can be forsaken by God ( who does not really forsake).
The mind of the flesh can convince us we are forsaken.
Jesus first fruits rises from the dead.
With faith now we can over come the flesh mind.
No matter how many joints you smoke during communion.
God will never forsake you or your neighbor.

A little leaven goes a long way.
I have to go now and have a shower I am taking a message to some one,
and they won't believe the message unless the messenger is clean.
It helps to concentrate completely on keeping clean.

:dsunny:

Quote from: rosered on July 14, 2013, 07:03:24 PM

QuoteWords mean something and I know when you wrote, " ..this is when Jesus become sin for us ..." You meant Jesus became a sin-offering, He did not become sin, ever. I mean no offence, but it jumped out at me.

No offence taken Micah , :thumbsup:
  its all a matter of how we percieve  , you are right he    was the sin offering  , the Lamb of God without spot 

  but He gave his soul   as the sin offering   that we might have life 

  I  have some written  scriptures that has to be reconciled to
 
when He cried out  and asked  Father why have you forsaken me  , 
that God could not look upon sin , proving   that     He did become sin for us

  this is just mine own  beliefs   and no one has to   believe me

  and this

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

  and there is more
  but pressed for time 
my son is visiting from   the Air force from Alaska and will not be and have not  been on here because of the wonderful visit from him

  But I  was blessed to read this post today and felt it move  within and  loved it !!quickining  a part  that has to witness to it 
thanks to all whom contributed    to this  thread   
 
Heard that when the Spirit moves the flesh becomes silent   
, when the flesh moves the Spirit becomes silent   
I kind of believe that    ,  seems we are in one state of being or the other   at all times
in our realms of thoughts  :dsunny:

2 Cor. 5:21   For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Grace, the Sacrifice of the Lamb for all time.  He became our sin, so we could receive His righteousness.  Grace, unmerited favor.  His works not ours.

QuoteI Believe its  important to think spiritual and not carnal when   reading the Word of God
   the literal  is the written   word  that all   are given
the Spoken word has life in  them  , by the breath of God , this is  the Holy Spirit to me

Thank you. The Spirit surveys all things and can place a finger on those things of the mind of man as well as those of the Mind of God

Quote from: jabcat on July 15, 2013, 02:56:25 AM
Grace, the Sacrifice of the Lamb for all time.  He became our sin, so we could receive His righteousness.  Grace, unmerited favor.  His works not ours.

Jesus Christ DID NOT BECOME SIN period. And if you believe that, just tell me why the Father would ever request or except "SIN" as an offering?
2 Corinthians 5:21 CLV 21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I just get a little upset when people are taught and worse accept a teaching that Jesus Christ became sin. :sigh:

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 15, 2013, 04:34:03 PM

Quote from: jabcat on July 15, 2013, 02:56:25 AM
Grace, the Sacrifice of the Lamb for all time.  He became our sin, so we could receive His righteousness.  Grace, unmerited favor.  His works not ours.

Jesus Christ DID NOT BECOME SIN period. And if you believe that, just tell me why the Father would ever request or except "SIN" as an offering?
2 Corinthians 5:21 CLV 21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I just get a little upset when people are taught and worse accept a teaching that Jesus Christ became sin. :sigh:

You can get upset, but to declare something as "period", may be a bit presumptuous - and perhaps incorrect - given you seem to be ignoring the scripture quoted just above.  But remember, that's my understanding and belief - not period".   Why aren't you addressing the scripture quoted?  If you have a good explanation for it, I'll listen.  Is there something you know about it that isn't evident?  If so, share it, rather than spouting off.

Quote from: jabcat on July 15, 2013, 07:47:43 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 15, 2013, 04:34:03 PM

Quote from: jabcat on July 15, 2013, 02:56:25 AM
Grace, the Sacrifice of the Lamb for all time.  He became our sin, so we could receive His righteousness.  Grace, unmerited favor.  His works not ours.

Jesus Christ DID NOT BECOME SIN period. And if you believe that, just tell me why the Father would ever request or except "SIN" as an offering?
2 Corinthians 5:21 CLV 21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I just get a little upset when people are taught and worse accept a teaching that Jesus Christ became sin. :sigh:

You can get upset, but to declare something as "period", may be a bit presumptuous - and perhaps incorrect - given you seem to be ignoring the scripture quoted just above.  But remember, that's my understanding and belief - not period".   Why aren't you addressing the scripture quoted?  If you have a good explanation for it, I'll listen.  Is there something you know about it that isn't evident?  If so, share it, rather than spouting off.

I will just spout, if you think and believe that Jesus Christ the SINLESS Lamb and Son of God had any sin what so ever, even the thought that Jesus Christ could become sin, to me is not sound doctrine. 
And I did address the scripture 2 Corinthians 5:21 CLV 21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him." Now should you accept the KJV as your belief fine, but the Savior that is saving this soul, the One who died on the cross did not have sin nor did He become sin.

Lev 4:3  If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

The priest did not bring sin to offer as 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Your post sounded familiar.

Every translation I've checked so far says either made sin for us, or sin on our behalf other than the CLV and one other.

You may be right, I'm willing to look at it further if it can be discussed in a brotherly manner.

Lev 4:3  If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.


From now on, then, we do not know[f] anyone in a purely human way.[g] Even if we have known[h] Christ in a purely human way, yet now we no longer know[j] Him in this way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things[k] have come. 18 Everything is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God." 21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin[l] for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
When we bring together these two different passages I can see
sort of what Micha is hinting at. (if we are priests)

Is grumpy a slang word?

Lev 4:20  And he shall do6213 with the bullock6499 as834 he did6213 with the bullock6499 for a  sin offering,2403 so3651 shall he do6213 with this: and the priest3548 shall make an atonement3722 for5921 them, and it shall be forgiven5545 them.

You can see the Hebrew word # 2403 you've got two words "sin offerings" for the one word.  If you look up that #2403 it will give you the definition of sin, not the definition of offering.  How come they translate it sin offering?  Because all Hebrews knew that that's what it meant. 
If Hebrews don't understand their own language, how are we going to translate anything?  By whose authority are we going to translate Hebrew Scripture if the Hebrews don't understand their own language?  Can we see how they did it?  What justification is there for saying Christ is made sin, period?  He was made a 'sin offering' and the Scripture proves it, fifty-four times in the book of Leviticus  alone.

Note: Grumpy is not a slang word, it is the name of one of the dwarfs! Be kind :LH:

Quote from: dajomaco on July 16, 2013, 12:37:17 AM
Is grumpy a slang word?

Nah, I don't think so.  But it describes me pretty well today.  Multiple stressful things going on recently, dealing with conflicts from various angles.  Forgive me.

ok, good info..definitely worth looking at further..thanks

2 Cor.5:21 is a tough one, but for me when I could not get my mind/heart around that Christ became sin because it went against everything I have read that Jesus KNEW NO SIN, so how could He BECOME sin?
But when looked into look at  YLT Gen 4:7  Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'

Quote from: jabcat on July 16, 2013, 12:51:34 AM
ok, good info..definitely worth looking at further..thanks

:dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 16, 2013, 12:53:21 AM
2 Cor.5:21 is a tough one, but for me when I could not get my mind/heart around that Christ became sin because it went against everything I have read that Jesus KNEW NO SIN, so how could He BECOME sin?
But when looked into look at  YLT Gen 4:7  Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'

! Cor 5:21 is explained, for me, by the concept of the scapegaot. The sin of the people was laid every year bythe high preist upon the scapegoat. Jesus never sinned. He took upon himself our sins and was executed for them, thus "sin in the flesh" was judged in the body of Jesus Christ once andd for all.

Consider this.
Jesus 'raptures' His bride. A bride is a woman. Eve was taken out of Adam (rib).
The bride is part of the church.

Another thing that refers to a bride is an ancient Jewish wedding ritual.
The groom was carried on wooden platform to his bride's house.
His bride met him and was pulled up the platform. The groom did not leave the platform. His feet didn't touch the ground.