The two witnesses of Revelation 11

[rosered]

 

Who are the two witnesses of Revelation 11 ?

[lomarah]

 :thumbsup:  :cloud9:

[sheila]

lovely post Rose!!!   

[rosered]

  Thanks  guys
I just decided  to  discuss this with others  first , no one would say a word ??? :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

RoseY I'm resurrecting your thread  :laugh:


Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Hebrews 9:27 states everyone will die once. A possible exception are the people living when He returns. Enoch and Elijah didn't die but were taken straight to heaven. (Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5, 2Kings 2:11-12) So the two witnesses have to die; and they will because they are murdered at the end of their 3.5 year ministry by the false prophet, Abaddon.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
The day of the Lord has yet to come. Some say John Baptist was Elijah but John lived in the glorious day of His ministry; not dreadful judgments. The time gap of 2000 years between John the Baptist and the dreadful day is just unlikely large. Plus there are two not just one witness.

Enoch VI-XI states Enoch will judge the Teraphim who had sexual relations with human females.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Elijah and Enoch had the same powers millennia ago.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell on the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelled on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell on them which saw them.  12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe comes quickly.

The 2 witnesses likely arrive on the scene at Jewish New Year. Die 3.5 years later on Passover and are resurrected during Firsts fruits. Great parallel with Jesus.  (half a day difference)

[sheila]

 well,I have some ideas,not saying it is 'formed' in me as of yet.


    I see the two wittness[olive tree's] as the two covenants of God's spirit..and word and testimony.

    the law covenant testifying to death for the lawless ones and the mercy of God to man through Jesus

  Christ..as free gift.   They both testify that 'the wicked' will be destroyed....


    all the time of their prophesying these things/judgements and testimonies...those who woul hurt

them..in what manner they would hurt them.. would receive in kind[eye for an eye..law judgement]


   the two wittness represent all spirit of God word received by the people through the Holy oil[holy spirit]  so they represent

all men's testimony that speak while being born aalong of Holy spirit[all scripture word,prophecy/testimony of Jesus]


       Now Jesus said 'destroy this temple aand I will raise it on the third day". this is Him speaking of the  temple bodies

  of Spirit and Truth....and ffspring of vipers putting the 'Word of God" to death in the earth.


    It was known certain men would enter..and men would not put up with the teachings..preferring lies...that aa falling away

of the 'church' would occurr[destruction/beast/carnal understanding oovercome thea nnointed word and testimony

  of God/Christ.   This carnal understanding kills the wittness testimony....and truth lies dead in the streets........

  and causes a great stink. Yes God reckons much of the overcome churches testimony as corrupted/dead stink offerings

  in His name.  Paul spoke of 'when he that restrains is taken out of the way= beast coming up out of"


    when the time comes...31/2 days   the spirit of God enters the dead body of wittness/testimony[this is Him quickening in spirit

truth]......and a voice is heard COME UP HERE...this call is God and Jesus Christ raising up carnal/bestly/mis understanding

  to that which is ABOVE..the mind of Christ/God......and is pictorial of Him coming like a refiner and cleansing away

  corruption from the body of beleivers


   You will also see in Daniel that the saints were overcome..until the time cme that Jesus and the saints receive the Kingdom

   Jesus said ,'I WILL RAISE IT UP if you destroy it" 

      the come up here......call..is the same call as come out of her my people..it is Him rebuilding spiritual truths...His spirit

  quickening a good as dead testimony/wittness that is corrupted and overcome.and life spirit and truth


    this is how I perceive these scriptures. Thse that destroy the temple of God,God Himself will destroy.

   He destroys the corruption[consuming fire]   O'Death I shall be thy plagues!!!



 

[BWST]

I'll throw a reformed amillenial interpretation here.  Understanding the symbolic nature of much of Revelation, and the light the OT brings to these images, as well as the scripture interprets scripture hermeneutic, it's likely the 2 witnesses are representative of the church (us) in this present age of sharing the gospel and enduring tribulation.

John, from Rev 1:2 "...who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ..." is part of the ecclesia

The candlesticks/lampstands have been defined as representing the churches, Rev 1:20

the olive trees have represented Israel in the OT and the church in the NT, see Zech. 4, Rom. 11.

The number two is from the OT law requiring at least two witnesses as a just basis for judging an offense against the law (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15)

They witness for the symbolic 1260 days, referencing the 3 1/2 years of Daniel 7 and 12, a time of tribulation and display of God's power.  I take that to be this church age, this age between Christ's first and second advent, also represented by the 1000 years of Rev 20.

More on this from Dennis Johnson's "Triumph of the Lamb" commentary on Revelation.

[sheila]

yes, the testimony of Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit[sons of  oil]  But look  a beast comes up out of the earth and kills them

  and they lay dead[overcome] and stink in the streets[saints were overcome until Ancient of days came,and the time

came to receive the Kingdom] call to 'COME UP HERE"

    this overcome 'church' stinks..of corrupted doctrines............

[marie glen]

This is the thing (and occurrence) in the Book of Revelation that I don't understand and have not received an answer on.. except of course the verses, which say the 2 lampstands (church/christianity,all?) and the 2 olive trees (Israel).. I guess I think of it as those of Rev 20:4(d?) who are beheaded for their testimony..

Ones who either -
a. did not understand the warning of Daniel about 45 days cannot buy or sell and ten critical days of even worse (timetable/days = Dan 12:11,12+Rev 2:10) OR,

b. for zeal of the saving message went out anyway..

I lean toward b. as "they have power to.."

And therefor their deaths (and dead bodies lying in the streets) are celebrated by those of the earth and man's kingdom(s) and empire(s) but three and a half days later (literal days) is the first resurrection (return of Christ)

Why literal days?  :Chinscratch: because? they've already witnessed (testified) for 1260 days, which is 42 (Hebrew) months (of 30 days each) which in turn is 3.5 years.. The same amount of time of the (first or) second half of the (peace) "league"/covenant/treaty" of the nations (ratified for one week of years, Dn 9:27)

And the same space of time between "the time the" (place of the) "daily sacrifice"/prayer "is taken away" (removed, cross = ref Mt 24:1,2 "all these" .."not 1 stone upon another") - umm, between the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination which desolates is set up shall be 1290 days (must be a Hebrew leap year, extra 30 days)

[the 3.5 of rev 12, imo, is 3.5 modern divisions.. from the time of a second migration of the faith/truth by being given the "wings of an eagle that 'she' may fly" (sail?) "to a new place safe from the face of the dragon for 3.5" modern divisions, then "the serpent" guise of the dragon "vomits a flood after the woman" (here christianity for a large part) a flood of vomit in an effort to wash away the woman/the faith, from the earth.. and doing a fine job of it, btw.. (1620 a.d., ore or less, plus 3.5/350 ='s approx.1970 a proliferation poured forth.. (next verse "but the earth will open its mouth and swallow the flood" (drought! cross ref Luke 23:28-31 "if they will crucify Me in a green leaf, what will they do in a dry leaf?"
gotta run.. per usual! my days are slowing down soon? I am sure hoping!! :smile:

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling029.htm

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

[marie glen]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling029.htm

This link was very good.. interesting! And I like the interpretation, it sounds very reasonable

there was only one thing i would disagree with and that is that all believers will be not upon earth at the time, implying rapture before Jesus' return, but, no one/none of us gets it all right! -- I simply think political pressure will have effectively silenced the witness.

I love how the page ends! pointing out how the believer's witness is/was one of love and grace (except maybe for those few obnoxious souls! which have helped to give us a bad name). But the two witnesses show God's 'wrath' - consider genocides.. sex slave trade (which at last estimate included 80,000).. abortions, etc, what Holy God worth His salt wouldn't display a little displeasure!

[marie glen]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

I can't help myself! feeling very blessed to have, imo, been shown the unveiling.. the truth-revealing peak of human history, i cannot stop myself from checking out these chapters to see what i think they've/he has accurate, and what not, if that be included..

But that's a good thing about forums, no one has to read anything they're not interested in (and long posts can be avoided, so i don't have to feel bad for using up a bunch of space, which i'm very afraid is likely to happen with this reply (a little study and review i'm allowing myself)

Here's what seemed to me, to come (back) to me when i specifically asked our Father to cause me to better understand this last book of His Holy Writ.

It was a question. Before the question, Revelation was like many jigsaw puzzle pieces hanging in the air. And after the question, it seemed like the pieces coming together into a narrative and like a play or production. (Revelation is like a symphony, each note once it first sounds, continues to sound thru-out the drama.(?)

The question was - "what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today" with the emphasis being on "today" - the first thing which came to mind was the theory of evolution, man's adult fairy tale, which says man is the highest power/'gods' and which turned western civilization(the iron, of the iron and clay ten toes) on its ear, now is a state religion what with being the only theory allowed to be taught to our children.

my mind thought "aha! the false prophet!" false prophet/teaching began as a man but became a white frocked magician who gave the little beast/an office of man, of 13:13, the fire he released from the sky in the sight of man, which inspired them to rebuild the big beast (world beast/body) whose head never did sign on, so it had expired.. {And really! how does anyone miss 13:13!!?? - I couldn't find an additional smiley which shows "utter shock and bewilderment"...}

and, any dear reader still reading, perhaps can see why i apologized for being long winded.. :laughing7:

The Link:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

..of course the 1st chapter i just had to check was #6 - "Literal or Figurative" - I never thought of that issue as the first 'lock' which hides the vision! but how true. Imo, the unveiling is a message to God's people, which implies we can/should understand it.

I learned a lot reading this #6!! it was very good, with only one 'problem' which is easy to check for ourselves, the perception that there are two "beasts", not just one, by reading verse 13:12 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:12&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT or by reading 13:1-10 and then 11-18. After reading #6, it's all the more clear! I believe 1-10 is a world political entity/body; and 11-18 is an office of man (two horned/seated) which released a new fire in the sight of man (in 1945) -

The 2 -

(13:1-10)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1-10&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT

& (13:11-18)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:11-18&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT

Gotta run! little ones are demanding food! :laugh2: I'm exaggerating a little..
I'm so glad, Tom, you posted these links.. I'm learning a lot.. hope the rest is as good! :clapping: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

Well.. like with all things "the unveiling" I'm always a bit disappointed. I next read the introduction, which though it was very very good, right off I could see most of the common errors.

I will likely continue to read, but over the course of my evening, and tomorrow, I'll continue my own review and study (and post it) hopefully of a very brief nature, but now that I'm on a roll, why not finish?

---
Speaking of locks, which hide the vision, the next one that I know of is in the dance done by the thundering hooves of the four horsemen of the apocalypse [(c)] or rather by the seven seals, but that doesn't sound as dramatic as the dusty dance steps of those four notorious horsemen of the apocalypse.
:mock:
What are the dance steps?

(The Scroll and Seals which keep the Scroll rolled up/sealed until they are broken and the Scroll is unrolled/"opened" a little bit further, are figurative, but the events are not, though some of the description is). Each Seal of God upon the Scroll when it is broken, is described here as a blend of two things. What it is in the world, at its beginning/breaking, and what it is much later, in its full blown maturity at the 'end'.

In this way, things which occur very late upon planet Earth, are described here (in the 6th chapter) so very early on in the narrative.

Please (with this in mind) consider reading Revelation chapter 6, verses 12 through 17, and see if it isn't talking about the aforementioned 13:13!

yrs truly,
glenda marie

[Tom]

I think the fact that Revelation is at the end of the Bible makes most folks think it's the end of the story, but I think it is simply the end of Hebrew scripture. I think everything except Paul's epistles from Genesis through Revelation is the story of Israel. Paul writes about the consummation of the eons which is actually the end of the story concerning all mankind. Scripture is concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons death will be abolished making possible the salvation of all mankind from death. All will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected to God through Christ. That is the happy ending to the story of scripture that is not told in the Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]. There is ongoing debate about literal vs. figurative in Revelation as well as all of Hebrew and Greek scripture. My personal perspective is to interpret anything literally than can be taken as such, but there is obviously some figurative language in scripture as in all literature. I'm familiar with Revelation, but I'm not nearly as interested in it as I am in Paul's epistles because I think they contain the evangel for today. I think God has paused his dealings with Israel while the nations are receiving the message of salvation in grace through faith. I use the Concordant Version because I think it's the most accurate. I posted the Unveiling link because it is from the Concordant site, but it's about what will be happening on earth concerning the destiny of Israel while I believe we will already have been snatched away in spiritual bodies immortalized to be with the Lord in the celestial realm saved for eonian life. I realize that is also a subject of continuous debate, but that is what I have come to believe. So the link was simply offered as a perspective relevant to the discussion, but the deciphering of Revelation is not really something I'm too interested in these days.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

[jabcat]

I haven't settled on all my hard and fast views about it, but I find this perspective you've just presented interesting and very much worth further consideration Tom.   :thumbsup:  Thanks!

[jabcat]

Tom, Deena has a thread running on the Tribulation.  You've indicated Revelation is the last book to the Hebrews, while Paul's books/message is to us, the "church"/ecclesia.  Would your view then mean that the tribulation, all those plagues, etc., were/are only meant for Israel?  And if so, do you believe they're completed, or if to be completed, will be mainly centered around the Middle East?  BTW, that's what Molly has suggested, that it will mainly be felt there, while the rest of the world will only feel it secondarily and as a result of what's happening there.   :Chinscratch:

[WhiteWings]

(The Scroll and Seals which keep the Scroll rolled up/sealed until they are broken and the Scroll is unrolled/"opened" a little bit further, are figurative, but the events are not,

Dunno if that opening is figurative. It's an exact parallel with a Jewish marriage custom in which the groom reads the marriage contract. Only a groom was allowed to do so.

[Tom]

Tom, Deena has a thread running on the Tribulation.  You've indicated Revelation is the last book to the Hebrews, while Paul's books/message is to us, the "church"/ecclesia.  Would your view then mean that the tribulation, all those plagues, etc., were/are only meant for Israel?  And if so, do you believe they're completed, or if to be completed, will be mainly centered around the Middle East?  BTW, that's what Molly has suggested, that it will mainly be felt there, while the rest of the world will only feel it secondarily and as a result of what's happening there.   :Chinscratch:

What I meant was I think Revelation is only the end of the story that started in Genesis as far as Israel is concerned because the future hope of the Jews has always been their earthly kingdom in Jerusalem ruled by Messiah, and that is accomplished in Revelation. I think Christ will come back to subject the whole earth to God through Israel, and I think the tribulation is brought on faithful Jews in Israel by men when they refuse to worship the symbol of man's rule while the unfaithful Jews and the nations will suffer from God's indignation. I think this will all take place in the future when God decides the nations have had enough time to receive the evangel of grace, but I think we in the body of Christ will have been immortalized and snatched away in spiritual bodies to our celestial destiny before that takes place. Scripture only goes as far as the consummation of the eons in Paul's writings. We're not told what happens after that unless you want to take Romans 11:36 literally which says, "out of Him and through Him and into Him is all." Personally I think that's a possibility meaning we all just return into God from where we came, no more flesh or soulful self, just pure spirit. It's also not clear how we will always be with the Lord as is written when we are snatched away because, if we have a celestial destiny, but Christ returns to rule the earth, how will we be with him? But, if we have spiritual bodies, we will probably not be subject to time and space as we are now. So our home may be in the celestial realm as is Christ's, but we will probably be with Christ somehow in spirit when he is ruling Israel on earth. I don't think we will be subject to Israel though as the nations on earth will be. I know some folks claim, when we will be snatched away to meet Christ in the air, that we will immediately return to earth with him because of the Greek "apantesin" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) which was used for a custom of greeting officials outside a town and escorting them back in. There's ongoing debate about this though just as there is about the snatching away in the same verse.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[marie glen]

...That is the happy ending to the story of scripture that is not told in the Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]. There is ongoing debate about literal vs. figurative in Revelation as well as all of Hebrew and Greek scripture. My personal perspective is to interpret anything literally than can be taken as such, but there is obviously some figurative language in scripture as in all literature..but the deciphering of Revelation is not really something I'm too interested in these days.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

hi Tom, I found your post very interesting, we do of course differ on some views.. I do, for instance, think the salvation of all in in Revelation, as a gap (gap theory) between the 2nd resurrection with judgment day being faar longer than most have considered.. then at the end of that chapter (20) is stated death and the grave are cast inot the LOF, and even after that verse, is the verse, "those not believing will go ot the 2nd death" - But seriously, after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing and living through a very loong day (surely?) of the examination/review of all things, all human history, etc.. who the heck's not going to "believe"?

I'm very interested in the Book of Revelation, it's been a fire in my 'soul' for some time now (years, that is). One reason being I think the rapture before Jesus' actual return to earth is unbiblical, the main verse persuading me being "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see coming on the clouds.. and will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of the earth.." Mt 24:29-31(?) and 2 thess 1:7,8 "He comes with His angels and fire.."

I believe, through much prayerful study (as I'm sure others practice) there will be 45 days of tribulation with the last ten days being critical or what is commonly called great tribulation.. this is based on the timetable of Daniel 12:11,12 (and Rev 2;10).. I think Jesus gave warnings and signs, but it is still in the realm of possibility for them to be missed and unseen, especially if looking for rapture beforehand.. After all there are those of rev 20:4d. I know God's grace will be with them, but also some of the first verses of Revelation is to hear, listen, heed.. and then of course the warnings of Jesus when upon earth "when you see.. armies around Jerusalem" .."when you see the abomination which desolates set up.."
:smile:

P.S. - I figure even for those who believe in an unseen appearance of Jesus called pre-trb rapture, what does it hurt to know the signs leading up to the collapse of $ity babble-on (and on) and the time of the beheadings? I sometimes approach ppl as they should know the signs so that even if they are raptured, they can be passing on the signs to those not so fortunate..

[marie glen]

(The Scroll and Seals which keep the Scroll rolled up/sealed until they are broken and the Scroll is unrolled/"opened" a little bit further, are figurative, but the events are not,

Dunno if that opening is figurative. It's an exact parallel with a Jewish marriage custom in which the groom reads the marriage contract. Only a groom was allowed to do so.

Wow! i didn't know that! Thank you! :smile:

[Tom]

...That is the happy ending to the story of scripture that is not told in the Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]. There is ongoing debate about literal vs. figurative in Revelation as well as all of Hebrew and Greek scripture. My personal perspective is to interpret anything literally than can be taken as such, but there is obviously some figurative language in scripture as in all literature..but the deciphering of Revelation is not really something I'm too interested in these days.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

hi Tom, I found your post very interesting, we do of course differ on some views.. I do, for instance, think the salvation of all in in Revelation, as a gap (gap theory) between the 2nd resurrection with judgment day being faar longer than most have considered.. then at the end of that chapter (20) is stated death and the grave are cast inot the LOF, and even after that verse, is the verse, "those not believing will go ot the 2nd death" - But seriously, after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing and living through a very loong day (surely?) of the examination/review of all things, all human history, etc.. who the heck's not going to "believe"?

I'm very interested in the Book of Revelation, it's been a fire in my 'soul' for some time now (years, that is). One reason being I think the rapture before Jesus' actual return to earth is unbiblical, the main verse persuading me being "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see coming on the clouds.. and will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of the earth.." Mt 24:29-31(?) and 2 thess 1:7,8 "He comes with His angels and fire.."

I believe, through much prayerful study (as I'm sure others practice) there will be 45 days of tribulation with the last ten days being critical or what is commonly called great tribulation.. this is based on the timetable of Daniel 12:11,12 (and Rev 2;10).. I think Jesus gave warnings and signs, but it is still in the realm of possibility for them to be missed and unseen, especially if looking for rapture beforehand.. After all there are those of rev 20:4d. I know God's grace will be with them, but also some of the first verses of Revelation is to hear, listen, heed.. and then of course the warnings of Jesus when upon earth "when you see.. armies around Jerusalem" .."when you see the abomination which desolates set up.."
:smile:

P.S. - I figure even for those who believe in an unseen appearance of Jesus called pre-trb rapture, what does it hurt to know the signs leading up to the collapse of $ity babble-on (and on) and the time of the beheadings? I sometimes approach ppl as they should know the signs so that even if they are raptured, they can be passing on the signs to those not so fortunate..

I agree that it will be impossible for those standing before the great white throne to continue to disbelieve because they will see the Lord with their own eyes. That's why I tell those that say all must come through Christ that all will, some by faith and some by sight when they are judged. But I don't see "the salvation of all in Revelation" as you say which is why I say it's not the end of the story because those condemned to the second death are still be dead. Believers are saved for eonian life. That's why 1 Timothy 4:10 says "we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." We are saved from death and the coming indignation when Christ meets us in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17), but the rest of mankind will be saved from death when death is abolished.

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

If you say, "I think the rapture before Jesus' actual return to earth is unbiblical," how do you interpret this?

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

I believe this refers to the coming indignation. How do you interpret it?

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)

I understand your interest in Revelation. I was simply stating that I prefer to concentrate on Paul's epistles because they contain the evangel for today.

[anna274]

I haven't settled on all my hard and fast views about it, but I find this perspective you've just presented interesting and very much worth further consideration Tom.   :thumbsup:  Thanks!

re: interesting perspective

I just read this reply this morning... it reminded me of a short article I have somewhere in my file of a zillion pages!!!  I will try to find the article later in the week when I have time...  briefly it suggests yet another perspective on Revelation , and yet somewhat related because it stresses what Paul shared in Gal 1:12...

I originally found the article when I was studying the possibility that the two witnesses of Revelation were "grace and truth"...

Anyway, the article stated that Revelation is to the first four books of the NT as Deuteronomy is to the first four books of the OT.  answers.com provides a rather good description of Deuteronomy.  "In Deuteronomy Moses is essentially preaching to the Israelites or restating the Law to the new generation who had arisen during the 40 years in the wilderness.  This he did prior to their entry into the promised land." 

Deuteronomy literally means 'second law' coming from the Greek words nomos (law) and deuteron (second)   

The article maintained that as Deuteronomy is a recap of the law, Revelation is a recap of grace and truth    John 1:17  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.   (John 1:14 Word made flesh..dwelt among us...full of grace and truth.)  Rev 1:1 The revelation (unveiling) of Jesus Christ...

Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

Sorry, a bit sketchy, but I wanted to at least introduce another perspective of Revelation that seems to agree with Tom's perspective that it is not the final word...

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: anna

[marie glen]

This thread inspired me to write my posts here - http://www.bubblews.com/account/31685-flowerchilde (So far 1-5) But they are down for maintenance this evening..
I plan to continue to also post them here.. :Peace2:

Now that I have convinced you that the (new) fire of Revelation 13:13 occurred in 1945 (lol) let me go on to where, just where in the heck, I think we are in Bible prophecy, right now. Well, if you'll look at the very next verses, the very beginning of chapter 7, you will see that four angels are dispatched to hold back the wind(s) from harming any trees, nor blow upon any land or seas. Now I suppose some may think this means there will be utter stillness of air at that time, but what I'm thinking, is it simply has to do with that (new) fire which was released with the breaking of the sixth seal on the scroll. The one which, like the previous seals, which I did not go into, was described as a blend of what it was when first occurring and what it will be at what's commonly called 'the end' but which of course, is not an end at all.

How clever to speak of this new thing in one breath as fire and in the next breath as wind! This confuses the vision almost as well as describing very (very) late events so early on in this revelation, by that clever blend I just made mention of. So we see there is a pause in this (or the use of) this new fire/wind.. windy fire.. fiery wind.. And that, my dear reader, is exactly where it is in my opinion we are at.

I will go into what's going on during this pause (and it's been stretching on for a bit now). But I want to mention that at any time when this new thing is used again, likely limited, it will signify the breaking of the seventh seal (surely? since said pause will have ended). It's in the seventh seal that the rest of the Book of Revelation occurs. But there are important things going on meanwhile!
:smile: :hiya:

[marie glen]

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

I believe this refers to the coming indignation. How do you interpret it?

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)

hi Tom!  :smile:

I totally agree that the 'end' of the story is not (in) the Book of Revelation. Indeed, it's much more of a beginning, than an 'end'.. unless we want to count the "end" of man's empire(s), as empire(s). The (s) because they/it, is going global.

Romans 5:9, in most versions reads "wrath of God", and the Amplified says it like this -

"Therefore, since we are now justified (acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ's blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God."

To that I say amen! I do not believe the wrath of God will touch any believer. It's my belief we meet the Lord at His coming.. as the seven bowls (last results/consequences of mankind's doings, yet also God's Wrath) come down (fiery, Ezekiel makes it sound thermal nuclear).

But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men..

- "He comes with fire and angels.." 2 thes 1:7,8; imo, as the fire goes down (the 7 bowls are poured out "quickly" / concurrently?? -- (I keep getting sidetracked, sorry). As the fire goes down (v) the saints go up (^).

Jesus, when here, said He would raise up those who believe "at the last day" - And Paul wrote "we who are alive will not precede those who are asleep" (in death, of course). (1 th 4)

(1 Th 1:7,8)"He comes with fire and angels.." and (Mt24:29-31)"Immediately aFter the tribulation of those days.. they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth." (The 4 directions for those crazy folk, not here on tentmaker(!) who like to claim Jesus thought the earth was flat, rofL :laughing7: )

But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men.. Even as Christians are being killed in many lands now, but rev 20:4d, is especially gruesome as it is a slow process.. (sorry, I really don't like pointing that out, but all the more reason to pass on those signs Jesus said to hear, listen, heed.)

I believe the signs given are for the purpose of enabling folks to avoid that -

Which I believe Daniel 12:11,12 says will occur for the longest length of time being ONLY 45 DAYS :smile:
.. I find myself thinking "not able to buy or sell" accelerates, as things are prone to do, to become rev 20:4d carried out by men, for "ten days tribulation" - the final ten days of Daniel's prophesied 45 days(dn12:11,12)

[I just wish somebody could hear me..] This is not directed toward you Tom.. [but I really, really, wish someone could hear me!! imo,the verses are so clear..]