Who are the two witnesses of Revelation 11 ?
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
lovely post Rose!!!
Thanks guys
I just decided to discuss this with others first , no one would say a word ??? :sigh:
RoseY I'm resurrecting your thread :laugh:
Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Hebrews 9:27 states everyone will die once. A possible exception are the people living when He returns. Enoch and Elijah didn't die but were taken straight to heaven. (Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5, 2Kings 2:11-12) So the two witnesses have to die; and they will because they are murdered at the end of their 3.5 year ministry by the false prophet, Abaddon.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
The day of the Lord has yet to come. Some say John Baptist was Elijah but John lived in the glorious day of His ministry; not dreadful judgments. The time gap of 2000 years between John the Baptist and the dreadful day is just unlikely large. Plus there are two not just one witness.
Enoch VI-XI (http://bookenoch.blogspot.nl/2009/05/enochvi-xi_30.html) states Enoch will judge the Teraphim who had sexual relations with human females.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Elijah and Enoch had the same powers millennia ago.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell on the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelled on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell on them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe comes quickly.
The 2 witnesses likely arrive on the scene at Jewish New Year. Die 3.5 years later on Passover and are resurrected during Firsts fruits. Great parallel with Jesus. (half a day difference)
well,I have some ideas,not saying it is 'formed' in me as of yet.
I see the two wittness[olive tree's] as the two covenants of God's spirit..and word and testimony.
the law covenant testifying to death for the lawless ones and the mercy of God to man through Jesus
Christ..as free gift. They both testify that 'the wicked' will be destroyed....
all the time of their prophesying these things/judgements and testimonies...those who woul hurt
them..in what manner they would hurt them.. would receive in kind[eye for an eye..law judgement]
the two wittness represent all spirit of God word received by the people through the Holy oil[holy spirit] so they represent
all men's testimony that speak while being born aalong of Holy spirit[all scripture word,prophecy/testimony of Jesus]
Now Jesus said 'destroy this temple aand I will raise it on the third day". this is Him speaking of the temple bodies
of Spirit and Truth....and ffspring of vipers putting the 'Word of God" to death in the earth.
It was known certain men would enter..and men would not put up with the teachings..preferring lies...that aa falling away
of the 'church' would occurr[destruction/beast/carnal understanding oovercome thea nnointed word and testimony
of God/Christ. This carnal understanding kills the wittness testimony....and truth lies dead in the streets........
and causes a great stink. Yes God reckons much of the overcome churches testimony as corrupted/dead stink offerings
in His name. Paul spoke of 'when he that restrains is taken out of the way= beast coming up out of"
when the time comes...31/2 days the spirit of God enters the dead body of wittness/testimony[this is Him quickening in spirit
truth]......and a voice is heard COME UP HERE...this call is God and Jesus Christ raising up carnal/bestly/mis understanding
to that which is ABOVE..the mind of Christ/God......and is pictorial of Him coming like a refiner and cleansing away
corruption from the body of beleivers
You will also see in Daniel that the saints were overcome..until the time cme that Jesus and the saints receive the Kingdom
Jesus said ,'I WILL RAISE IT UP if you destroy it"
the come up here......call..is the same call as come out of her my people..it is Him rebuilding spiritual truths...His spirit
quickening a good as dead testimony/wittness that is corrupted and overcome.and life spirit and truth
this is how I perceive these scriptures. Thse that destroy the temple of God,God Himself will destroy.
He destroys the corruption[consuming fire] O'Death I shall be thy plagues!!!
I'll throw a reformed amillenial interpretation here. Understanding the symbolic nature of much of Revelation, and the light the OT brings to these images, as well as the scripture interprets scripture hermeneutic, it's likely the 2 witnesses are representative of the church (us) in this present age of sharing the gospel and enduring tribulation.
John, from Rev 1:2 "...who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ..." is part of the ecclesia
The candlesticks/lampstands have been defined as representing the churches, Rev 1:20
the olive trees have represented Israel in the OT and the church in the NT, see Zech. 4, Rom. 11.
The number two is from the OT law requiring at least two witnesses as a just basis for judging an offense against the law (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15)
They witness for the symbolic 1260 days, referencing the 3 1/2 years of Daniel 7 and 12, a time of tribulation and display of God's power. I take that to be this church age, this age between Christ's first and second advent, also represented by the 1000 years of Rev 20.
More on this from Dennis Johnson's "Triumph of the Lamb" commentary on Revelation.
yes, the testimony of Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit[sons of oil] But look a beast comes up out of the earth and kills them
and they lay dead[overcome] and stink in the streets[saints were overcome until Ancient of days came,and the time
came to receive the Kingdom] call to 'COME UP HERE"
this overcome 'church' stinks..of corrupted doctrines............
This is the thing (and occurrence) in the Book of Revelation that I don't understand and have not received an answer on.. except of course the verses, which say the 2 lampstands (church/christianity,all?) and the 2 olive trees (Israel).. I guess I think of it as those of Rev 20:4(d?) who are beheaded for their testimony..
Ones who either -
a. did not understand the warning of Daniel about 45 days cannot buy or sell and ten critical days of even worse (timetable/days = Dan 12:11,12+Rev 2:10) OR,
b. for zeal of the saving message went out anyway..
I lean toward b. as "they have power to.."
And therefor their deaths (and dead bodies lying in the streets) are celebrated by those of the earth and man's kingdom(s) and empire(s) but three and a half days later (literal days) is the first resurrection (return of Christ)
Why literal days? :Chinscratch: because? they've already witnessed (testified) for 1260 days, which is 42 (Hebrew) months (of 30 days each) which in turn is 3.5 years.. The same amount of time of the (first or) second half of the (peace) "league"/covenant/treaty" of the nations (ratified for one week of years, Dn 9:27)
And the same space of time between "the time the" (place of the) "daily sacrifice"/prayer "is taken away" (removed, cross = ref Mt 24:1,2 "all these" .."not 1 stone upon another") - umm, between the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination which desolates is set up shall be 1290 days (must be a Hebrew leap year, extra 30 days)
[the 3.5 of rev 12, imo, is 3.5 modern divisions.. from the time of a second migration of the faith/truth by being given the "wings of an eagle that 'she' may fly" (sail?) "to a new place safe from the face of the dragon for 3.5" modern divisions, then "the serpent" guise of the dragon "vomits a flood after the woman" (here christianity for a large part) a flood of vomit in an effort to wash away the woman/the faith, from the earth.. and doing a fine job of it, btw.. (1620 a.d., ore or less, plus 3.5/350 ='s approx.1970 a proliferation poured forth.. (next verse "but the earth will open its mouth and swallow the flood" (drought! cross ref Luke 23:28-31 "if they will crucify Me in a green leaf, what will they do in a dry leaf?"
gotta run.. per usual! my days are slowing down soon? I am sure hoping!! :smile:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling029.htm
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling029.htm
This link was very good.. interesting! And I like the interpretation, it sounds very reasonable
there was only one thing i would disagree with and that is that all believers will be not upon earth at the time, implying rapture before Jesus' return, but, no one/none of us gets it all right! -- I simply think political pressure will have effectively silenced the witness.
I love how the page ends! pointing out how the believer's witness is/was one of love and grace (except maybe for those few obnoxious souls! which have helped to give us a bad name). But the two witnesses show God's 'wrath' - consider genocides.. sex slave trade (which at last estimate included 80,000).. abortions, etc, what Holy God worth His salt wouldn't display a little displeasure!
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm
I can't help myself! feeling very blessed to have, imo, been shown the unveiling.. the truth-revealing peak of human history, i cannot stop myself from checking out these chapters to see what i think they've/he has accurate, and what not, if that be included..
But that's a good thing about forums, no one has to read anything they're not interested in (and long posts can be avoided, so i don't have to feel bad for using up a bunch of space, which i'm very afraid is likely to happen with this reply (a little study and review i'm allowing myself)
Here's what seemed to me, to come (back) to me when i specifically asked our Father to cause me to better understand this last book of His Holy Writ.
It was a question. Before the question, Revelation was like many jigsaw puzzle pieces hanging in the air. And after the question, it seemed like the pieces coming together into a narrative and like a play or production. (Revelation is like a symphony, each note once it first sounds, continues to sound thru-out the drama.(?)
The question was - "what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today" with the emphasis being on "today" - the first thing which came to mind was the theory of evolution, man's adult fairy tale, which says man is the highest power/'gods' and which turned western civilization(the iron, of the iron and clay ten toes) on its ear, now is a state religion what with being the only theory allowed to be taught to our children.
my mind thought "aha! the false prophet!" false prophet/teaching began as a man but became a white frocked magician who gave the little beast/an office of man, of 13:13, the fire he released from the sky in the sight of man, which inspired them to rebuild the big beast (world beast/body) whose head never did sign on, so it had expired.. {And really! how does anyone miss 13:13!!?? - I couldn't find an additional smiley which shows "utter shock and bewilderment"...}
and, any dear reader still reading, perhaps can see why i apologized for being long winded.. :laughing7:
The Link:
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm
..of course the 1st chapter i just had to check was #6 - "Literal or Figurative" - I never thought of that issue as the first 'lock' which hides the vision! but how true. Imo, the unveiling is a message to God's people, which implies we can/should understand it.
I learned a lot reading this #6!! it was very good, with only one 'problem' which is easy to check for ourselves, the perception that there are two "beasts", not just one, by reading verse 13:12 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:12&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:12&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT) or by reading 13:1-10 and then 11-18. After reading #6, it's all the more clear! I believe 1-10 is a world political entity/body; and 11-18 is an office of man (two horned/seated) which released a new fire in the sight of man (in 1945) -
The 2 -
(13:1-10)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1-10&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1-10&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT)
& (13:11-18)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:11-18&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:11-18&version=NKJV;AMP;CEV;NASB;YLT)
Gotta run! little ones are demanding food! :laugh2: I'm exaggerating a little..
I'm so glad, Tom, you posted these links.. I'm learning a lot.. hope the rest is as good! :clapping: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm
Well.. like with all things "the unveiling" I'm always a bit disappointed. I next read the introduction, which though it was very very good, right off I could see most of the common errors.
I will likely continue to read, but over the course of my evening, and tomorrow, I'll continue my own review and study (and post it) hopefully of a very brief nature, but now that I'm on a roll, why not finish?
---
Speaking of locks, which hide the vision, the next one that I know of is in the dance done by the thundering hooves of the four horsemen of the apocalypse [(c)] or rather by the seven seals, but that doesn't sound as dramatic as the dusty dance steps of those four notorious horsemen of the apocalypse.
:mock:
What are the dance steps?
(The Scroll and Seals which keep the Scroll rolled up/sealed until they are broken and the Scroll is unrolled/"opened" a little bit further, are figurative, but the events are not, though some of the description is). Each Seal of God upon the Scroll when it is broken, is described here as a blend of two things. What it is in the world, at its beginning/breaking, and what it is much later, in its full blown maturity at the 'end'.
In this way, things which occur very late upon planet Earth, are described here (in the 6th chapter) so very early on in the narrative.
Please (with this in mind) consider reading Revelation chapter 6, verses 12 through 17, and see if it isn't talking about the aforementioned 13:13!
yrs truly,
glenda marie
I think the fact that Revelation is at the end of the Bible makes most folks think it's the end of the story, but I think it is simply the end of Hebrew scripture. I think everything except Paul's epistles from Genesis through Revelation is the story of Israel. Paul writes about the consummation of the eons which is actually the end of the story concerning all mankind. Scripture is concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons death will be abolished making possible the salvation of all mankind from death. All will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected to God through Christ. That is the happy ending to the story of scripture that is not told in the Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]. There is ongoing debate about literal vs. figurative in Revelation as well as all of Hebrew and Greek scripture. My personal perspective is to interpret anything literally than can be taken as such, but there is obviously some figurative language in scripture as in all literature. I'm familiar with Revelation, but I'm not nearly as interested in it as I am in Paul's epistles because I think they contain the evangel for today. I think God has paused his dealings with Israel while the nations are receiving the message of salvation in grace through faith. I use the Concordant Version because I think it's the most accurate. I posted the Unveiling link because it is from the Concordant site, but it's about what will be happening on earth concerning the destiny of Israel while I believe we will already have been snatched away in spiritual bodies immortalized to be with the Lord in the celestial realm saved for eonian life. I realize that is also a subject of continuous debate, but that is what I have come to believe. So the link was simply offered as a perspective relevant to the discussion, but the deciphering of Revelation is not really something I'm too interested in these days.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
I haven't settled on all my hard and fast views about it, but I find this perspective you've just presented interesting and very much worth further consideration Tom. :thumbsup: Thanks!
Tom, Deena has a thread running on the Tribulation. You've indicated Revelation is the last book to the Hebrews, while Paul's books/message is to us, the "church"/ecclesia. Would your view then mean that the tribulation, all those plagues, etc., were/are only meant for Israel? And if so, do you believe they're completed, or if to be completed, will be mainly centered around the Middle East? BTW, that's what Molly has suggested, that it will mainly be felt there, while the rest of the world will only feel it secondarily and as a result of what's happening there. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2013, 12:55:39 AM
(The Scroll and Seals which keep the Scroll rolled up/sealed until they are broken and the Scroll is unrolled/"opened" a little bit further, are figurative, but the events are not,
Dunno if that opening is figurative. It's an exact parallel with a Jewish marriage custom in which the groom reads the marriage contract. Only a groom was allowed to do so.
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2013, 07:31:19 AM
Tom, Deena has a thread running on the Tribulation. You've indicated Revelation is the last book to the Hebrews, while Paul's books/message is to us, the "church"/ecclesia. Would your view then mean that the tribulation, all those plagues, etc., were/are only meant for Israel? And if so, do you believe they're completed, or if to be completed, will be mainly centered around the Middle East? BTW, that's what Molly has suggested, that it will mainly be felt there, while the rest of the world will only feel it secondarily and as a result of what's happening there. :Chinscratch:
What I meant was I think Revelation is only the end of the story that started in Genesis as far as Israel is concerned because the future hope of the Jews has always been their earthly kingdom in Jerusalem ruled by Messiah, and that is accomplished in Revelation. I think Christ will come back to subject the whole earth to God through Israel, and I think the tribulation is brought on faithful Jews in Israel by men when they refuse to worship the symbol of man's rule while the unfaithful Jews and the nations will suffer from God's indignation. I think this will all take place in the future when God decides the nations have had enough time to receive the evangel of grace, but I think we in the body of Christ will have been immortalized and snatched away in spiritual bodies to our celestial destiny before that takes place. Scripture only goes as far as the consummation of the eons in Paul's writings. We're not told what happens after that unless you want to take Romans 11:36 literally which says, "out of Him and through Him and into Him is all." Personally I think that's a possibility meaning we all just return into God from where we came, no more flesh or soulful self, just pure spirit. It's also not clear how we will always be with the Lord as is written when we are snatched away because, if we have a celestial destiny, but Christ returns to rule the earth, how will we be with him? But, if we have spiritual bodies, we will probably not be subject to time and space as we are now. So our home may be in the celestial realm as is Christ's, but we will probably be with Christ somehow in spirit when he is ruling Israel on earth. I don't think we will be subject to Israel though as the nations on earth will be. I know some folks claim, when we will be snatched away to meet Christ in the air, that we will immediately return to earth with him because of the Greek "apantesin" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) which was used for a custom of greeting officials outside a town and escorting them back in. There's ongoing debate about this though just as there is about the snatching away in the same verse.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on August 30, 2013, 01:58:47 AM
...That is the happy ending to the story of scripture that is not told in the Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]. There is ongoing debate about literal vs. figurative in Revelation as well as all of Hebrew and Greek scripture. My personal perspective is to interpret anything literally than can be taken as such, but there is obviously some figurative language in scripture as in all literature..but the deciphering of Revelation is not really something I'm too interested in these days.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
hi Tom, I found your post very interesting, we do of course differ on some views.. I do, for instance, think the salvation of all in in Revelation, as a gap (gap theory) between the 2nd resurrection with judgment day being faar longer than most have considered.. then at the end of that chapter (20) is stated death and the grave are cast inot the LOF, and even after that verse, is the verse, "those not believing will go ot the 2nd death" - But seriously, after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing and living through a very loong day (surely?) of the examination/review of all things, all human history, etc.. who the heck's not going to "believe"?
I'm very interested in the Book of Revelation, it's been a fire in my 'soul' for some time now (years, that is). One reason being I think the rapture before Jesus' actual return to earth is unbiblical, the main verse persuading me being "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see coming on the clouds.. and will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of the earth.." Mt 24:29-31(?) and 2 thess 1:7,8 "He comes with His angels and fire.."
I believe, through much prayerful study (as I'm sure others practice) there will be 45 days of tribulation with the last ten days being critical or what is commonly called great tribulation.. this is based on the timetable of Daniel 12:11,12 (and Rev 2;10).. I think Jesus gave warnings and signs, but it is still in the realm of possibility for them to be missed and unseen, especially if looking for rapture beforehand.. After all there are those of rev 20:4d. I know God's grace will be with them, but also some of the first verses of Revelation is to hear, listen, heed.. and then of course the warnings of Jesus when upon earth "when you see.. armies around Jerusalem" .."when you see the abomination which desolates set up.."
:smile:
P.S. - I figure even for those who believe in an unseen appearance of Jesus called pre-trb rapture, what does it hurt to know the signs leading up to the collapse of $ity babble-on (and on) and the time of the beheadings? I sometimes approach ppl as they should know the signs so that even if they are raptured, they can be passing on the signs to those not so fortunate..
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2013, 08:27:16 AM
Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2013, 12:55:39 AM
(The Scroll and Seals which keep the Scroll rolled up/sealed until they are broken and the Scroll is unrolled/"opened" a little bit further, are figurative, but the events are not,
Dunno if that opening is figurative. It's an exact parallel with a Jewish marriage custom in which the groom reads the marriage contract. Only a groom was allowed to do so.
Wow! i didn't know that! Thank you! :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2013, 10:00:28 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 30, 2013, 01:58:47 AM
...That is the happy ending to the story of scripture that is not told in the Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]. There is ongoing debate about literal vs. figurative in Revelation as well as all of Hebrew and Greek scripture. My personal perspective is to interpret anything literally than can be taken as such, but there is obviously some figurative language in scripture as in all literature..but the deciphering of Revelation is not really something I'm too interested in these days.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
hi Tom, I found your post very interesting, we do of course differ on some views.. I do, for instance, think the salvation of all in in Revelation, as a gap (gap theory) between the 2nd resurrection with judgment day being faar longer than most have considered.. then at the end of that chapter (20) is stated death and the grave are cast inot the LOF, and even after that verse, is the verse, "those not believing will go ot the 2nd death" - But seriously, after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing and living through a very loong day (surely?) of the examination/review of all things, all human history, etc.. who the heck's not going to "believe"?
I'm very interested in the Book of Revelation, it's been a fire in my 'soul' for some time now (years, that is). One reason being I think the rapture before Jesus' actual return to earth is unbiblical, the main verse persuading me being "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see coming on the clouds.. and will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of the earth.." Mt 24:29-31(?) and 2 thess 1:7,8 "He comes with His angels and fire.."
I believe, through much prayerful study (as I'm sure others practice) there will be 45 days of tribulation with the last ten days being critical or what is commonly called great tribulation.. this is based on the timetable of Daniel 12:11,12 (and Rev 2;10).. I think Jesus gave warnings and signs, but it is still in the realm of possibility for them to be missed and unseen, especially if looking for rapture beforehand.. After all there are those of rev 20:4d. I know God's grace will be with them, but also some of the first verses of Revelation is to hear, listen, heed.. and then of course the warnings of Jesus when upon earth "when you see.. armies around Jerusalem" .."when you see the abomination which desolates set up.."
:smile:
P.S. - I figure even for those who believe in an unseen appearance of Jesus called pre-trb rapture, what does it hurt to know the signs leading up to the collapse of $ity babble-on (and on) and the time of the beheadings? I sometimes approach ppl as they should know the signs so that even if they are raptured, they can be passing on the signs to those not so fortunate..
I agree that it will be impossible for those standing before the great white throne to continue to disbelieve because they will see the Lord with their own eyes. That's why I tell those that say all must come through Christ that all will, some by faith and some by sight when they are judged. But I don't see "the salvation of all in Revelation" as you say which is why I say it's not the end of the story because those condemned to the second death are still be dead. Believers are saved for eonian life. That's why 1 Timothy 4:10 says "we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." We are saved from death and the coming indignation when Christ meets us in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17), but the rest of mankind will be saved from death when death is abolished.
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
If you say, "I think the rapture before Jesus' actual return to earth is unbiblical," how do you interpret this?
"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
I believe this refers to the coming indignation. How do you interpret it?
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
I understand your interest in Revelation. I was simply stating that I prefer to concentrate on Paul's epistles because they contain the evangel for today.
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2013, 04:58:09 AM
I haven't settled on all my hard and fast views about it, but I find this perspective you've just presented interesting and very much worth further consideration Tom. :thumbsup: Thanks!
re: interesting perspective
I just read this reply this morning... it reminded me of a short article I have somewhere in my file of a zillion pages!!! I will try to find the article later in the week when I have time... briefly it suggests yet another perspective on Revelation , and yet somewhat related because it stresses what Paul shared in Gal 1:12...
I originally found the article when I was studying the possibility that the two witnesses of Revelation were "grace and truth"...
Anyway, the article stated that Revelation is to the first four books of the NT as Deuteronomy is to the first four books of the OT. answers.com provides a rather good description of Deuteronomy. "In Deuteronomy Moses is essentially preaching to the Israelites or restating the Law to the new generation who had arisen during the 40 years in the wilderness. This he did prior to their entry into the promised land."
Deuteronomy literally means 'second law' coming from the Greek words nomos (law) and deuteron (second)
The article maintained that as Deuteronomy is a recap of the law, Revelation is a recap of grace and truth John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:14 Word made flesh..dwelt among us...full of grace and truth.) Rev 1:1 The revelation (unveiling) of Jesus Christ...
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ
Sorry, a bit sketchy, but I wanted to at least introduce another perspective of Revelation that seems to agree with Tom's perspective that it is not the final word...
:thumbsup: anna
This thread inspired me to write my posts here - http://www.bubblews.com/account/31685-flowerchilde (http://www.bubblews.com/account/31685-flowerchilde) (So far 1-5) But they are down for maintenance this evening..
I plan to continue to also post them here.. :Peace2:
Now that I have convinced you that the (new) fire of Revelation 13:13 occurred in 1945 (lol) let me go on to where, just where in the heck, I think we are in Bible prophecy, right now. Well, if you'll look at the very next verses, the very beginning of chapter 7, you will see that four angels are dispatched to hold back the wind(s) from harming any trees, nor blow upon any land or seas. Now I suppose some may think this means there will be utter stillness of air at that time, but what I'm thinking, is it simply has to do with that (new) fire which was released with the breaking of the sixth seal on the scroll. The one which, like the previous seals, which I did not go into, was described as a blend of what it was when first occurring and what it will be at what's commonly called 'the end' but which of course, is not an end at all.
How clever to speak of this new thing in one breath as fire and in the next breath as wind! This confuses the vision almost as well as describing very (very) late events so early on in this revelation, by that clever blend I just made mention of. So we see there is a pause in this (or the use of) this new fire/wind.. windy fire.. fiery wind.. And that, my dear reader, is exactly where it is in my opinion we are at.
I will go into what's going on during this pause (and it's been stretching on for a bit now). But I want to mention that at any time when this new thing is used again, likely limited, it will signify the breaking of the seventh seal (surely? since said pause will have ended). It's in the seventh seal that the rest of the Book of Revelation occurs. But there are important things going on meanwhile!
:smile: :hiya:
Quote from: Tom on August 30, 2013, 11:53:46 PM
"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
I believe this refers to the coming indignation. How do you interpret it?
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
hi Tom! :smile:
I totally agree that the 'end' of the story is not (in) the Book of Revelation. Indeed, it's much more of a beginning, than an 'end'.. unless we want to count the "end" of man's empire(s), as empire(s). The (s) because they/it, is going global.
Romans 5:9, in most versions reads "wrath of God", and the Amplified says it like this -
"Therefore, since we are now justified (acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ's blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the
indignation and wrath of God."
To that I say amen! I do not believe the wrath of God will touch any believer. It's my belief we meet the Lord at His coming.. as the seven bowls (last results/consequences of mankind's doings, yet also God's Wrath) come down (fiery, Ezekiel makes it sound thermal nuclear).
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men..
- "He comes with fire and angels.." 2 thes 1:7,8;
imo, as the fire goes down (the 7 bowls are poured out "quickly" / concurrently?? -- (I keep getting sidetracked, sorry). As the fire goes down (v) the saints go up (^).
Jesus, when here, said He would raise up those who believe "at the last day" - And Paul wrote "we who are alive will not precede those who are asleep" (in death, of course). (1 th 4)
(1 Th 1:7,8)"He comes with fire and angels.." and (Mt24:29-31)"Immediately aFter the tribulation of those days.. they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth." (The 4 directions for those crazy folk, not here on tentmaker(!) who like to claim Jesus thought the earth was flat, rofL :laughing7: )
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men.. Even as Christians are being killed in many lands now, but rev 20:4d, is especially gruesome as it is a slow process.. (sorry, I really don't like pointing that out, but all the more reason to pass on those signs Jesus said to hear, listen, heed.)
I believe the signs given are for the purpose of enabling folks to avoid that -
Which I believe Daniel 12:11,12 says will occur for the longest length of time being
ONLY 45 DAYS :smile:
.. I find myself thinking "not able to buy or sell" accelerates, as things are prone to do, to become rev 20:4d carried out by men, for "ten days tribulation" - the final ten days of Daniel's prophesied 45 days(dn12:11,12)
[I just wish somebody could hear me..] This is not directed toward you Tom.. [but I really, really, wish someone could hear me!!
imo,the verses are so clear..]
...I really, really, wish someone could hear me... (continued) :sigh:
From rev 13:13, having occurred in 1945, thus pinpointing an office for those in the day to keep an eye on..
to rev 12:14, being a 2nd migration of the faith, now the grafted branch, following verse 13, the inquisitions..
to realizing most Bible prophecy buffs, have the Book of Revelation time frame.. order.. etc.. aLL messed up..
Because, there are locks on the vision.. I suppose others will be given the keys (to see the locks is to have the keys) some day..
I suppose the idea from that maiden who stood up in church and declared it, was it in 1800 something? which began the (pre tribulation) rapture theory, has convinced most we don't need to "hear, listen, heed".. and pass it on..
"seven times, in each letter, including 2:10 which says "ten days tribulation" (commonly called great?)Jesus said "he that has an ear let him hear"
And one more time, in chapter 13, said "if any man, have an ear, let him hear"
oh, and I forgot dan 12:11,12.. wish someone else could add the days,
see the counting backwards calendar.. :sigh: / :smile:
I'm listening. I
hear you. :laughing7:
Quote from: marie glen on August 31, 2013, 03:30:01 AM
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men.. Even as Christians are being killed in many lands now, but rev 20:4d, is especially gruesome as it is a slow process.. (sorry, I really don't like pointing that out, but all the more reason to pass on those signs Jesus said to hear, listen, heed.)
I believe the signs given are for the purpose of enabling folks to avoid that -
..and do
what, do you believe?
Also, do you believe it's world-wide, or mostly Middle East? I've seen some advocate getting ready [physically] by setting aside rations for varying amounts of time, based on their own view of the tribulation. Someone said to prepare food for 7 years! Yikes, I think that would leave most out in the cold. One famous preacher reportedly said he'd have plenty of ammo.
OTOH, some say strictly trust God. So what say ye? Any solid scripture(s) re: "and do what"?
P.S - to me Bible prophecy, especially the Book of Rev, is also evangelical, as when people see current events mirrored in it, it helps convince them of the truth of the saving gospel.. And the 1st resurrection still far surpasses the 2nd (for a while anyway!)
:smile:
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2013, 04:02:41 AM
I'm listening. I hear you. :laughing7:
Quote from: marie glen on August 31, 2013, 03:30:01 AM
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men.. Even as Christians are being killed in many lands now, but rev 20:4d, is especially gruesome as it is a slow process.. (sorry, I really don't like pointing that out, but all the more reason to pass on those signs Jesus said to hear, listen, heed.)
I believe the signs given are for the purpose of enabling folks to avoid that -
..and do what, do you believe?
Also, do you believe it's world-wide, or mostly Middle East? I've seen some advocate getting ready [physically] by setting aside rations for varying amounts of time, based on their own view of the tribulation. Someone said to prepare food for 7 years! Yikes, I think that would leave most out in the cold. One famous preacher reportedly said he'd have plenty of ammo.
OTOH, some say strictly trust God. So what say ye? Any solid scripture(s) re: "and do what"?
Psalm 23A psalm of David.
1 The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,
[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14240a)]I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
James, can we REALLY trust without unconditional LOVE. Can we then HOPE if we cannot Trust?
Yet, is not LOVE even greater than FAITH and so it should be because as Paul said Faith without LOVE is nothing.
What place has fear in a heart and soul filled with Love. Our world is lacking nothing but LOVE!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love is EVERYTHING!!! :HeartThrob:
LOVE Julie
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2013, 04:02:41 AM
I'm listening. I hear you. :laughing7:
Quote from: marie glen on August 31, 2013, 03:30:01 AM
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men.. Even as Christians are being killed in many lands now, but rev 20:4d, is especially gruesome as it is a slow process.. (sorry, I really don't like pointing that out, but all the more reason to pass on those signs Jesus said to hear, listen, heed.)
I believe the signs given are for the purpose of enabling folks to avoid that -
..and do what, do you believe?
Also, do you believe it's world-wide, or mostly Middle East? I've seen some advocate getting ready [physically] by setting aside rations for varying amounts of time, based on their own view of the tribulation. Someone said to prepare food for 7 years! Yikes, I think that would leave most out in the cold. One famous preacher reportedly said he'd have plenty of ammo.
OTOH, some say strictly trust God. So what say ye? Any solid scripture(s) re: "and do what"?
hi Jabcat,
I believe world wide.. but,
I personally think 45 days cannot buy or sell (dn 12:11,12,pasted below) with the last "ten days" (rev 2:10) escalating to "will be killed" i.e. Rev 20:4d
And this is the verse I think of, with the word "indignation" in this verse being simply that, indignation, not God's "wrath" as it seems "wrath" is how most translators see it - (I think of it in the same sense that God, who is Life, suffers all indignations which ever occur.)
Isaiah 26:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
(See, the translators title it: Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment, I don't read it that way.)
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
(Ten Days.)
Daniel 12:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."
Most Bible prophecy buffs believe this indicates the notorious "building of a third temple and Israel offers animal sacrifices as of old.. personally, I don't agree with that, and I was never taught by any person, church or organization.. just me and waiting upon Him.. (during my wonderful hermit years)
And what I think the "daily sacrifice is daily sacrifices of prayers and thanksgiving, right there in Jerusalem every day /daily.. right now. This is what bugs me most.. How invisible! ..things that are big and pretty as you please in the world, are invisible to God's ppl, when it comes to Bible prophecy. (God answered my prayer with a question: "what are the (strongest) forces at work upon mankind TODAY?"
Also, having to do with a place which could be removed.. where daily sacrifices of praise, prayer and thanksgiving are offered every day, is the beginning of Matthew 24, when the disciples, coming out of the temple with Jesus, said to Him how GReat it was and Jesus replied "see aLL these things?" (all these buildings, the temple complex including walls) "not ONE stone will remain one upon another".
This has not been fully fufilled yet. (Please bear with me, this is to support the "ten days" great "tribulation" theory.)
What I'm saying, and this I did not discover thru prayer and prayerful study, but I read it from another believer some few years ago.. seems long ago, when i first came online with my little web tv unit, in web tv discussion forums, and it struck a chord with me, an "aha!" moment.
What I'm saying is that Wailing Wall, a wall of the temple complex is sitting there presently, more than one stone atop another, and is where people, both Jewish and Christian say and write prayers and thanksgiving on pieces of paper every day and stick them in between the stones.. the same ones still one atop another.. for now.
(in 12) Daniel said "11-And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." (3.5 Hebrew years plus a Hebrew leap month, i.e. 3.5 yrs plus one month, but they are Hebrew calendar months) "12
Blessed is he who
waits, and
comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." (Which is 45 days later).
Here, to me, is a clear sign, three years and seven months after, "the" place of "daily sacrifice is taken away" - I've read somewhere a version which said "is removed" - 3 yrs, 7 months later will be the setting up of an abomination which desolates - I believe this WAS fulfilled in 70 a.d. but, imo, just about all Bible prophecy ties into the Book of Revelation and that was written at least 20 years after 70 a.d. (The parallelism of Bible prophecy.. an imminent, more or less fulfillment and a 'last' days fulfillment.. last days of mens' empires)
The Amplified Version Bible calls the Abomination which desolates, 666.. the 666apparatus. And I agree.
So what happy event occurs on the 1,335 th day after the daily sacrifice is removed.. and also on the 45 th day of 666? And why is one blessed to make it to that day?
I've had ppl reply to me the days are 1,335 years (the day for a year theory b'cause a thousand years is as a day to Father Creator) but it's awful hard for a man/ a person to wait and come to 1,335 years!
So that's it, to me, a mere "10 days" for those of the day (I don't think it will be in my days) to "hide thyself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past." So "happy they may be to wait and come to the 45th day of it".
Thanks, Jabcat, for listening :gsmile:
I beleive that by 1945...when satan had gone forth to mislead the nations..and had caused two world wars to occurr....
that was also part of the composite 'signs'. Hitler's 1000 yr reicht was an imitation corrupt image trying to usurp
Jesus position[robber and theif that come before Him] and the Kingdom of Heaven. Many 'pretenders' to the throne
have manifested
He said 'these things must occur" He also said 'come out of her my people,lest ye receive of her plaagues"
so we can yeild to His holy spirit..endure..and pray that we escape these things
we are told...the woman shaall be kept safe through childbearing..prvided she remain a worker at home......
He likens all these things as childbirth pangs...He also says...close the door and go into your interoir rooms..
when He passed through Egypt and slayed the firstborn of Pharoah..there was Lamb's blood on the doorpost
there was light in the Israelites homes,and nary a dog barked. if there is blood on your doorpost,then you are found spotless
and without blemish in Him...and there is light in your house. I truly beleive that those who hope in Him shall not be ashaamed
I beleive He will keep us through the hour f trial......
I BELEIVE IF THE RIGHTEOUS ONE SHOULD STRIKE THIS EARTH..IT WOULD EVEN BE A BLESSING
[in other words,it would be for good,and not evil]
I beleive He speaks..and His spirit will direct us..it is not as if His presence is not going to be with us through all this.
Because of His great Love,ye sons of men are NOT consumed.
Beleive in Him,trust in Him,lean not upon your own understanding.
Imagine the joy of those who have had victory in Christ..who had resisted sin even unto the shedding of their blood
they have hd victory over the last enemy...I'm sure they would have not traded that for anything...Think upon their
triumph and partaking in His Glory!! Dwell not upon the temporal suffering of a moment...that is as nothing compred
to the eternal Glory that is now their's!
Quote from: marie glen on August 31, 2013, 03:30:01 AM
Quote from: Tom on August 30, 2013, 11:53:46 PM
"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
I believe this refers to the coming indignation. How do you interpret it?
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
hi Tom! :smile:
I totally agree that the 'end' of the story is not (in) the Book of Revelation. Indeed, it's much more of a beginning, than an 'end'.. unless we want to count the "end" of man's empire(s), as empire(s). The (s) because they/it, is going global.
Romans 5:9, in most versions reads "wrath of God", and the Amplified says it like this -
"Therefore, since we are now justified (acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ's blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God."
To that I say amen! I do not believe the wrath of God will touch any believer. It's my belief we meet the Lord at His coming.. as the seven bowls (last results/consequences of mankind's doings, yet also God's Wrath) come down (fiery, Ezekiel makes it sound thermal nuclear).
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men..
- "He comes with fire and angels.." 2 thes 1:7,8; imo, as the fire goes down (the 7 bowls are poured out "quickly" / concurrently?? -- (I keep getting sidetracked, sorry). As the fire goes down (v) the saints go up (^).
Jesus, when here, said He would raise up those who believe "at the last day" - And Paul wrote "we who are alive will not precede those who are asleep" (in death, of course). (1 th 4)
(1 Th 1:7,8)"He comes with fire and angels.." and (Mt24:29-31)"Immediately aFter the tribulation of those days.. they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth." (The 4 directions for those crazy folk, not here on tentmaker(!) who like to claim Jesus thought the earth was flat, rofL :laughing7: )
But rev 20:4d, I don't believe, is the wrath of God, but beheadings carried out by men.. Even as Christians are being killed in many lands now, but rev 20:4d, is especially gruesome as it is a slow process.. (sorry, I really don't like pointing that out, but all the more reason to pass on those signs Jesus said to hear, listen, heed.)
I believe the signs given are for the purpose of enabling folks to avoid that -
Which I believe Daniel 12:11,12 says will occur for the longest length of time being ONLY 45 DAYS :smile:
.. I find myself thinking "not able to buy or sell" accelerates, as things are prone to do, to become rev 20:4d carried out by men, for "ten days tribulation" - the final ten days of Daniel's prophesied 45 days(dn12:11,12)
[I just wish somebody could hear me..] This is not directed toward you Tom.. [but I really, really, wish someone could hear me!! imo,the verses are so clear..]
There is a distinction between tribulation and wrath. I think the tribulation is brought on faithful Jews in Israel by men when they refuse to worship the symbol of man's rule while the unfaithful Jews and the nations will suffer from God's indignation.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil026.html
Wow, lots of good replies here.
I definitely agree, trust. Also, the 1945 alusions are interesting, as well as the difference between experiences for believing Jews and unbelieving Jews and the nations.
"close the door and go into your interior rooms" (maybe literal and spiritual applications?)
I also hear you saying marie, there will be a time to indeed "hide away", make oneself scarce. That makes sense to me, as since signs to watch for and warnings are given, it seems there would be specific things to then do, and be prepared to do.
Perhaps most folks could survive for 10 days in hiding [out of sight/laying low?]. For many it might just be knowing when to keep our head down, mouth shut, and prayers and trust even more active. We're totally dependent on Him anyway, but especially during that time it would be a true imminent matter of life or death.
Well, interesting studies. Thanks, blessings.
Quote from: sheila on August 31, 2013, 04:57:27 AM
Imagine the joy of those who have had victory in Christ..who had resisted sin even unto the shedding of their blood
they have hd victory over the last enemy...I'm sure they would have not traded that for anything...Think upon their
triumph and partaking in His Glory!! Dwell not upon the temporal suffering of a moment...that is as nothing compred
to the eternal Glory that is now their's!
Dear Shelia,
Please paint me anyway you feel fitting, but dear sister there will never be true joy in my heart for as long as I know that even one of my earthly brothers or sisters is missing from the coming fold of Love.
You see, I find this as the greatest stumbling block. Surely, those that would rejoice over their own good fortune *though not of their own but Father's) are more likely suffer indignation than those who knew no better.
This is just a very heartfelt and soul wrenching topic for me and I am not in any way saying that I took this in anyway that you meant.
I love you!!!! :HeartThrob:
[size=78%]Love Julie [/size]
Quote from: Tom on August 31, 2013, 04:58:49 AM
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil026.html
I found that link interesting, especially as I want to examine all sides to something.. but I personally find myself agreeing with this one more,
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm (http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm)
God bless! :icon_flower:
what makes you think the ones beheaded for their testimony in Christ are missing? And what makes you think I am
painting? you.
I beleive you are judging my own comments according to the way 'you think I mean them" and not what I mean by them
and 'I find this as the greatest stumbling block" did you mean as yours or mine.
also..it is my beleif..that not one will be missing..s I'm sorry that you beleive there will be nd it brings you greif not joy
and are you referring t thse who are rejoicing ver their own good fortune as those beheaded and in first resurrection
coz that is what the paraagraph was about???? :dontknow:
Quote from: sheila on August 31, 2013, 05:31:54 AM
what makes you think the ones beheaded for their testimony in Christ are missing? And what makes you think I am
painting? you.
I beleive you are judging my own comments according to the way 'you think I mean them" and not what I mean by them
and 'I find this as the greatest stumbling block" did you mean as yours or mine.
also..it is my beleif..that not one will be missing..s I'm sorry that you beleive there will be nd it brings you greif not joy
and are you referring t thse who are rejoicing ver their own good fortune as those beheaded and in first resurrection
coz that is what the paraagraph was about???? :dontknow:
This is exactly my point where is the LOVE :sigh:
Dear Shelia you chose to ignore the following:
QuoteThis is just a very heartfelt and soul wrenching topic for me and I am not in any way saying that I took this in anyway that you meant.
I also never said that I believe anyone will be missing, just that there will be no complete joy until every single person is immersed in the Love of Father
:HeartThrob:
Please forgive me if I offended you, it truly was not meant.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
actually,I thought it was you who were offended by my post,since you addressed it an me personally. When I wrote my
post it was in regard to Rev 20;4 'beheaded ones" I had not even read your previous pst in the thread...but after your post
to me,I did go and read it. But ,I am still of the opionion,my post had nothing to do with you,your post..etc.
I beleive when the Lord returns to receive them to Himself..that they may always dwell with the Lord..they do rejoice.....
and this rejoicing in them to always dwell with the Lord,will not be taken from them. Each in his own order.
to me,your pov is the same as saaying...I have no right to have any joy in His holy spirit,now..because many others
in the world at present don't. That I have no right to sing praises of joy and thanksgiving to Him now..because others
are unaware or in darkness to what His Holy spirit haas revealed .
There is aa joy that belongs with faith...there is a peace that surpasses all understanding...that is not based on the
temporal circumstances of this realm.
Now,if in fact,you are addressing..the spiteful glee of so called christians that say'praise the Lord I'm saved,but youre ging to
hell..to their f ellow men" imo they are a stink offering rising in the nose of God........
But that is not what I speak of...and because such people do such things..in no way..should the rightful joy of His people
to rejoice in Him,be denied due to those who pervert.
For the joy that was set before Him,He endured.
Dear Shelia :friendstu:
Please understand that I was not offended and had no intention of offending you.
YES!!!!!! Father has been so gracious in granting little me a peace and a joy that I have never felt before. The Joy is complete!! Yet, it is "I" who has yet to fully appreciate it. This is my stumbling "block"
It is "I" who would give anything that everyone could feel Fathers Joy. It "SHOULD" be enough that His gift was given me, but it is I who want's to hurry Father along. Shame on me!!! :sigh:
But this a grand lesson in Unconditional Love. My LOVE should never be constrained by anything real or perceived.
I was simply voicing what was in my heart and did a very poor job of explaining myself. Just because I knew what i meant was no reason to believe everyone else would. Sorry.
So here it is, if I refuse the complete JOY given me, shame on me. I think I am beginning to understand Paul when he said: "Love is Patient"
I have to learn that part. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie :girlheart:
Martha,Martha! You are worried aand upset about many things,but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen whaat
is better,and it will not be taken from her.
THIS IS MY BELOVED SON,HEAR YE HIM!!
Julie, if He feel that waay about our house that He come and dwell in[Martha's house] how would He feel about those
over anxious and concerned with His. I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE....His household is His buisiness..it is Him
that make's preparations for receiving all into Him. We must not be so anxious with things of His household that
we miss out the joy of His presence in ours and not hear Him.
TRUST HIM,JULIE.......TO TAKE CARE OF WHAT IS NEEDED FOR ALL MEN.
yes, the Bridegroom is delayed..and we can not pout or sulk over it...to hurry Him along........it will get us nowhere......
exrta oil...[Hear ye Him] is beneficial......
Quote from: marie glen on August 31, 2013, 05:25:10 AM
Quote from: Tom on August 31, 2013, 04:58:49 AM
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil026.html
I found that link interesting, especially as I want to examine all sides to something.. but I personally find myself agreeing with this one more,
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm (http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm)
God bless! :icon_flower:
The Concordant Version does not use the word "rapture." It translates the Greek "harpagesometha" as "be snatched away."
"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
The word became flesh in the man of Jesus Christ to minister to his people, the Jews, in Israel.
"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mathew 15:24)
Christ did not say he would "rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation" as the author says because Christ was not concerned with the "church," and it was not part of his teaching to the Jews that "the body of Christ" would "be snatched away" to meet him in the air. That was revealed to Paul for the ecclesia of the nations.
The word church is not even in scripture. It is a mistranslation of the Greek "ekklesia" meaning "out-called" that should be properly translated "ecclesia." The "church" has confused itself with Israel by mixing the two distinct evangels of Peter and Paul. Before Jesus Christ was crucified he gave Peter the evangel for the Circumcision, but the risen Christ Jesus commissioned Paul to the nations. We are the ecclesia of the nations not the "church."
The author says, "But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century." Personally I don't care what "eminent scholars" or the "Christian Fathers" or "those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods" said or didn't say. I know what scripture says in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 though.
The author says, "To prevent people from understanding this natural meaning of the word, even the Concordant Version incorrectly translated the word as "former." This is sad! This departure from the principles of true translation is against the very principles of proper translation that Concordant Version correctly endorse. The Concordant Version is in most places, however, an excellent translation of the New Testament. The lapse in this Version shows how strong doctrinal beliefs can be and how they influence translators to mistranslate texts of the Scriptures to support their false theories. All of us must reject this type of approach."
I've attached screenshots of the word "former" from the Greek "proteron" literally meaning "before-more" and the word "first" from the Greek "proton" literally meaning "before-most" from the Concordant Keyword Concordance. I think the author is making a false assumption about the word "former" being use to promote the so called "Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory."
I'm starting to feel like I'm back on christianchat.com with the continuous debate of Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism. The author seems to be making a not so subtle attempt to discredit those of the Dispensationalist persuasion. So I assume he is into Covenant Theology. He is saying Dispensationalism mixed with Pentecostalism and the visions of an ill woman are responsible for the so called "Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory."
It is scripture that says we will "be snatched away" to meet Christ in the air. Some folks think we're coming right back down to earth with him based on the ancient custom suggested by the Greek "apantesin" which is translated "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 referring to when folks would go outside a town to escort dignitaries back in. We will be vivified (1 Corinthians 15:22,23), but scripture doesn't say where we're going after we meet Christ in the air other than we will "always be together with the Lord." If Christ is on his way to earth for his second advent when we meet him in the air, and we escort Christ back down to earth protected from the tribulation of men and the indignation of God by our new spiritual bodies, maybe that would be a compromise for you Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism debaters, but I hear you Covenant folks don't believe in the 1000 years either because you say it is figurative. I hear you also say there are only two "ages." So I'm wondering how you interpret the Greek "aionias ton aionion" literally meaning "eons of the eons." It seems kind of strange to say "eons of the eons" if there are only two eons.
"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)
"The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!" (Revelation 11:15)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
So I guess what you Covenant folks are saying is the faithful Jews in Israel experience the tribulation; the unfaithful Jews and the unbelieving nations experience the indignation of God; and the body of Christ does not experience the indignation of God but does experience the tribulation even though it has been vivified and most of the body of Christ are not Jews from Israel?
All this theology gives me a headache.
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Re: headache??? Big Time Pain Reliever(PR) = PRaise (God inhabits the praises of His people)
Psalm 67
v 3 Let the people praise Thee, O God; let ALL the people praise Thee
v 4 O let the nations be glad and sing for JOY: for Thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon the earth. Selah
v 5 Let the people praise Thee, O God: let all the people praise Thee.
v 6 THEN shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us.
v 7 God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall adore Him.
PR in song
PRAISE MEDLEY jabcat/james 2008
Refrain:
Let all who love the Lord worship Him today
Let all who love the Lord let Him have His way
Let us offer up ourselves as a sacrifice of praise
Let all who love the Lord worship Him today
Lord You're so good to me
You're so good to me
You've given life and mercy You've blessed my family
Lord You're so good to me.
Refrain
Praise Him, let us praise Him
He is worthy of our praise
Praise Him, let us praise Him
He is worthy of our praise
Refrain
So let the JOY of the Lord be your strength, be your strength
Let the JOY of the Lord be your strength, be your strength
Open up your heart :HeartThrob: to the Lord let His joy overflow
And let the JOY of the Lord be your strength.
Thanks for the cure Anna.
The only thing that would make people dance in the streets and give gifts over the death of the righteous would be the death of Judah and Israel in Jerusalem or possibly Israel and Christians (now that Israel is one state again). If the Islamic nations invaded and killed Jews and Christians in Jerusalem it's the Muslim MO to drag corpses around the streets and not bury them. Who else does that?
Only Muslims do that.
It all points to a future military campaign against the two witnesses Judah and Israel (or Israel and Christians) in Jerusalem. Who was there when God parted the red sea? Who was always there when God moved his hand? Judah and/or Israel. Who was there when Christ was resurrected? Christians.
Who witnessed God's acts and carried his Word through the millennia?
Who witnessed Christ's acts and carried his word throughout the millennia?
Christians and Jews.
The two witnesses.
snatched away= Branchsnatched out of thefire.........Satanwas standing there resistinghim....
The LORD REBUKE THEE SATAN...IS THIS NOT A BRANCH SNATCHED OUT OF THE FIRE?
andthey put cleaan gaarments upon him.
The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are no question Judah and Israel.
Islam will kill the tribes from the north and south in Jerusalem and leave their bodies to rot in the streets while celebrating their death. This is typical of Islamists. They often drag the remains of dead people through the streets and celebrate. Islam is the religion of death that celebrates death and has a Prophet that only prophesied about death.
As far as I know, no other people in history other than Islam leave dead bodies out to be defiled for days on end.
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 10, 2013, 12:18:17 AM
The only thing that would make people dance in the streets and give gifts over the death of the righteous would be the death of Judah and Israel in Jerusalem or possibly Israel and Christians (now that Israel is one state again). If the Islamic nations invaded and killed Jews and Christians in Jerusalem it's the Muslim MO to drag corpses around the streets and not bury them. Who else does that?
Only Muslims do that.
It all points to a future military campaign against the two witnesses Judah and Israel (or Israel and Christians) in Jerusalem. Who was there when God parted the red sea? Who was always there when God moved his hand? Judah and/or Israel. Who was there when Christ was resurrected? Christians.
Who witnessed God's acts and carried his Word through the millennia?
Who witnessed Christ's acts and carried his word throughout the millennia?
Christians and Jews.
The two witnesses.
That makes a LOT of sense! :thumbsup:
Ok this posting of the two witnesses has been dead for a year and the Lord has blessed with some new thoughts about it , Hope others are also given some new understanding , so going to raise it up
again and hope the HOLY SPIRIT WILL anoint and breathe new life into the Word by His Spirit this AWESOME message for us all
That we can learn righteousness of Jesus Christ and understand His Truth by His own witness and testimony which is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY in those for now times
That Spirit of prophecy was in all those before us, and Peters witness declares it and be are blessed by it , Peter upon this rock /revealing of Christ , the gates of hell shall not prevail / go any farther against it .
1 PETER 1 3 Blessed is God The Father of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, he who in his great pity has begotten us again by the resurrection of Yeshua The Messiah to the hope of life,
4 And to an inheritance which is indestructible, undefiled and unfading, prepared for you in Heaven,
5 While you are kept by the power of God and by the faith, for the life which is ready to be revealed in the last time;[last time being the age of grace upon us though the 1) Witnesses with Jesus Christ 2 ] as all have the anointing of God Almighty Spirit of holiness
We Know Jesus Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit the First of many born in the earth that shall also come though Him
6 In which life you shall rejoice for eternity, although at this time you are a bit weary with various temptations which suddenly come upon you,
7 So that the proof of your faith may appear, which is worth more than refined gold tried in the fire,
for glory and honor and praise at the revelation of Yeshua The Messiah,
8Him whom you have not seen and yet you love, and in his faith* you greatly rejoice with glorious joy which cannot be spoken,
9That you may receive the reward of your faith: The Life of your souls;
10About which Life The Prophets have investigated, when they prophesied about the grace that was going to be given to you. 11And they searched for what time The Spirit of The Messiah who dwelt in them revealed, and testified that the sufferings of The Messiah were coming, and his glory which was after that; 12And it was revealed to all those who were searching, because they were not inquiring for themselves, but for us they were prophesying of those things belonging to us, which now are revealed to you by those things in which we have evangelized you, by The Spirit of Holiness, who is sent from Heaven, into which things the Angels have also desired to gaze.
there it is the HOLY SPIRIT & and OIL of anointing dwelling in them and same for us whom have the same SPIRIT OF CHRIST working in them
13Because of this, gird up the loins of your mind, be perfectly attentive and hope for the joy which is coming to you in the revelation of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,
14As obedient children, and do not be partaking again of your former lusts, which you were lusting without knowledge.
15But be Holy Ones in your entire way of life, as he who has called you is holy, 16Because it is written: "Be holy, just as I also am holy."
17And if you call upon The Father,
he who has no respect of persons and judges every person according to his works, live your life in reverence in this time of your pilgrimage,
wow a judging is in effect NOW BY GOD !!!
18As you know that you were redeemed from your worthless works which you received from your fathers,
not with silver which wears out, neither with gold,
19But with the precious blood of The Lamb, who has no blemish or defilement in him, who is The Messiah.
20He was appointed beforehand to this before the foundation of the world and was manifested at the end of times for you;
21You, who by him have believed in God, who raised him from among the dead and has given him the glory, that your faith and hope would be upon God,
22So that your souls would be sanctified in obedience to the truth and that they be filled with love without partiality, that you would be loving one another from a pure and perfect heart, 23As persons who have been born again, not from fallible seed, but that which is infallible, by the living word of God which stands for eternity.
There is so much more
about this thoughout scriptures and trying so hard to be careful
Just seeing the 7 lampstands as the seven Spirits of God burning the as the EYES of understanding in the 7 churches
7 means complete from the two witnesses of Zech 4 the 2 OLIVE TREES planted of the Lord of hosts as the Old and New BEING WITNESSES gathered as ONE IN CHRIST , ONE SPIRIT ONE FAITH ONE HOPE ONE BAPTISM ONE GOD
This is hard to show there are so many more scriptures to place in here to understand it all , just like a flood flowing of many voices and mighty rushing Wind , this so explains the song of Moses and song of the Lamb being sung in the heavens and those in them , seated with CHRIST in heavenly places !! Ezek 43 ;2
The Lord's Glory Returns to the Temple
1Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east; 2and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when He came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face
rev 14 The Lamb and the 144,000
1Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
rev 1 John's Vision on Patmos
...14His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength
Knowing there is much more to be revealed unsealed and opened by the Lords hand
wow :ty: Lord of heavenly hosts !!
What a glimpse of glory! gotta run! :))
:hiya: hi! Watching this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzoK6OyvHF0#t=228 - I learned when the beginning of the months were set by ancient Israel - which were set by the first spotting of the new moon - sent out to do the spotting were "two witnesses". So of course I found this interesting. :Chinscratch:
The video also says if they were asked ahead of time when the new month would begin, they would answer "no one knows the day or the hour"..
Quote from: marie glen on December 04, 2014, 04:42:56 PM
:hiya: hi! Watching this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzoK6OyvHF0#t=228 - I learned when the beginning of the months were set by ancient Israel - which were set by the first spotting of the new moon - sent out to do the spotting were "two witnesses". So of course I found this interesting. :Chinscratch:
The video also says if they were asked ahead of time when the new month would begin, they would answer "no one knows the day or the hour"..
no man knows because He is flesh and blood tell no man , because the man of sin is old Adam and knows nothing being the enemy of the Spirit , all in Adam die but all in the last Adam ''Christ ''shall be made alive Jesus come to deposit the seed in your heart and the Holy Spirit rest on you
Just as it did on Pentecost
the loosing AND the binding the things on earth as they are in heaven , Jesus comes to bind satan in your earth as it is in heaven , so the will of God can be done on your earth body as it is in heaven , when satan come to the sons of God in Job , the Lord asked where have you been , he was going to and fro walking up and down on the earth , every man will go thought the Job experience before its all said and done , think about his suffering for a moment and than look at Revelations 7 bowels and vials and trumpets and 7 Spirits satan was made for the destruction of your flesh so in the DAY OF THE LORD your Spirit will be saved ... Job come out as Spiritual and praising God and KNOWING it was nothing he done to save himself , he could NOT do it , only thing Job has was his integrity which is a God send !
inˈteɡrədē/
noun
1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.and being whole and undivided , remember the house [you] are at odds within yourself than satan is divided against satan and you will not stand but have an end !!
Job remained whole in his suffering to God all though he wished he had never been born ! seeking death and NOT finding it sound familiar in Revelations ?
Now there was
a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming
about on the earth and walking around on it." 8The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
The day is Christ , as thousands years is ONE DAY TO GOD / Jesus Christ
is the Sabbath rest we see this in the WORD as it applies today the same as thousands of years ago , Same Day of the Lord and same reign in all of them as different examples , saying the very same things , comparing scripture with scriptures , not only that but I believe the Mercy seat , Key of David is the Revelation of Christ /Revelations to open all the seals of the books
I know this is a bold statement , but am unable to shut up ..
Jesus is the Day Hebrews 13 7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct,
imitate their faith. 8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to
be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were
so occupied were not benefited....
the
hour is now Father seeks such to worship Him John 4 ;23
22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23"But
an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father
in spirit and truth; for such people the
Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him
must worship in spirit and truth."
Keeping the flesh separate from the Spirit and the Truth from the lies is our best defence , the WORD AND SPIRIT
says it all it speaks as two witnesses in the heavens as in the earth .. and it was and is and will be in all of them who spoke the truth ..in my opinion only
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 05:29:59 PM
The video also says if they were asked ahead of time when the new month would begin, they would answer "no one knows the day or the hour"..
I think wasn't about a month but the beginning of the new year. (which started at the beginning of the month)
"Only the father knows" was as common reply when a betrothed boy was asked when he would marry. The boy had certain obligations like building a room (mansion) for his bride next to his father's house, furnishing it, etc. His father would regularly inspect the room so see it was ready and up to standard. Only then the boy would get the green light to steal his bride like a thief in the night.
So
Mat 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Fatherpinpoints the night the Groom arrives at His bride's house. So the verse means the exact opposite what it looks like at first glance.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2014, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 05:29:59 PM
The video also says if they were asked ahead of time when the new month would begin, they would answer "no one knows the day or the hour"..
I think wasn't about a month but the beginning of the new year. (which started at the beginning of the month)
"Only the father knows" was as common reply when a betrothed boy was asked when he would marry. The boy had certain obligations like building a room (mansion) for his bride next to his father's house, furnishing it, etc. His father would regularly inspect the room so see it was ready and up to standard. Only then the boy would get the green light to steal his bride like a thief in the night.
So
Mat 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
pinpoints the night the Groom arrives at His bride's house. So the verse means the exact opposite what it looks like at first glance.
:thumbsup:
awesome , made me think of the ten virgins parable !! what is the Kingdom of Heaven like what do we compare it too!!
and Paul stating I am making you chaste virgins for Christ !! another clue... I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might
present you as a pure virgin to him. preparing and making one ready
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2014, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 05:29:59 PM
The video also says if they were asked ahead of time when the new month would begin, they would answer "no one knows the day or the hour"..
I think wasn't about a month but the beginning of the new year. (which started at the beginning of the month)
"Only the father knows" was as common reply when a betrothed boy was asked when he would marry. The boy had certain obligations like building a room (mansion) for his bride next to his father's house, furnishing it, etc. His father would regularly inspect the room so see it was ready and up to standard. Only then the boy would get the green light to steal his bride like a thief in the night.
So
Mat 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
pinpoints the night the Groom arrives at His bride's house. So the verse means the exact opposite what it looks like at first glance.
Very interesting! Thank-you!
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 05:29:59 PM
Keeping the flesh separate from the Spirit and the Truth from the lies is our best defence , the WORD AND SPIRIT says it all it speaks as two witnesses
Amen Rose! our daily bread and wine.. :smile:
Enoch and Elijah
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2014, 03:04:16 AM
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on December 06, 2014, 02:36:45 AM
Enoch and Elijah
Okay?
Hi Micah
the two olive trees and the two sons of oil Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth." And he saith, 'These are the two sons of the oil, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.' 4:11-14 Zechariah desires to know what are the two olive trees.
as we do as well , For me there is no direct answer , but its shrouded in mystery , at this time of Zech especially
I still believe the two witnesses are the Spirit and Truth and they are found in Moses and Elijah BEING IN THE SPIRIT & fire /OIL AND JESUS CHRIST /WORD OF GOD/ TRUTH , the law and prophets can appear to to be dead in the street at times
and the Thing for me is it takes both the Spirit and the Truth to move in any witness to declare Gods glory in the earth
and both certainly can bring judgments on mankind and beast and every living thing at any time , The Word judges us by the Spirit of truth
who are these two with the LORD OF THE EARTH !So he said to me, "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty.7"What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel
you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of 'God bless it! God bless it!' "
8Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.
10"Who dares despise the day of small things,
since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen Cornerstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?" http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Zerubbabel.html#.VINCTzHF9eU
11Then I asked the angel, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?"
12Again I asked him, "What are these
two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?"
13He replied, "Do you not know what these are?"
"No, my lord," I said.
14So he said, "
These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth." not by strength and not by might but BY MY SPIRIT says the Lord ! When we look at the vision of and seen the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ in Matt 17 showing for me
that all three stood and talked together ,as Christ was fulfilling all the law and prophets as ONE BEING SHINING AS THE SUN in strength , yet they are with Him always for me saying what ? Now the Cross of Jesus Christ If you believe that the blood and water and the Spirit are what poured out of the Lords side when the spear pierced Him , the Blood being all that died in the Lord and its the judgments poured out in the earth and on Baylon giving Her blood to drink of all the Law and prophets and Jesus Christ being ALL IN ONE /with Him always , and the judgments begin in the earth , and the flood of water that takes them all away not building on the ROCK foundation Jesus and the Holy Spirit oil and the Fire that is describing Jesus Christ , He was not just a man hanging on a tree like many thought and this would be the end of it , it was the Beginning of a whole new way , taking out the old and making everything new best way to look is seeing Rev 11 in that light to me and than look though the old testament for the fire and water and blood verses
They have the power to shut heaven for us as being Judgment , I do believe this is why Jesus said we would as sheep go in and out to pasture , eating the green LIFE and go right back into judgments in the earth to LEARN HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS , , showing mercy and grace and not judgment , because when we judge we are being judged also who are the two olive trees [planted of the Lord ] and lampstands [2 assemblies ] with the LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH ALWAYS ? I believe they are our judges !!!! to the left and Right of the LORD /CENTER OF ALL THINGS !
Remember How Jesus told them sitting to my left or right is not mine to give but the Father gives this only ? Matthew 20:23 ESV
English Standard Version
He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant,
but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.jOHN 5 ;45Do you think that I am accusing you before The Father?
There is one who accuses you: Moses, the one in whom you hope.
I do believe this is why Satan argued over the body of Moses and the angel Michael said the LORD REBUKE YOU SATAN , Because moses natural force was not abated (of something perceived as hostile, threatening, or negative) become less intense or widespread. and the Body of Moses is the assembly of judgments in the earth , if we judge by that Law we will also be judged by that fiery Law .... and Elijah / being John the Baptist in that same Spirit was set to clear the path for the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ , it was with Fire upon all the false witness , for me its like this Moses was said as so much as a beast touches the mountain it will be stoned , the beast is cast into the fire for burning , and Elijah was to destroy the false prophets casting them in the Fire
and last is satan whom the Lord Jesus seals up for the time till loosed for the little season before cast into the fire
all three are BOUND by the fire of Gods judgments
and Than it was Jesus IN THE GLORY and the Cloud/ heavenly witness appeared and Spirit said Listen to Me beloved Son for me they are in and with the SON
This is how I understand it to the best of mine ability I do believe the scriptures must be compared to other scriptures in order to understand what the Lord is saying to us By His Holy Spirit , they must have the answers in the WORD to be interpreted properly
it goes so deep and wide I cannot keep it all in my heart
In Zecchariah the two anointed ones were Joshua and Zerrubabel. While some speculate that the two witnesses will be Elijah and Enoch, which I consider a reasonable conclusion, I also think it quite possible that there will be two entirely different(new) "anointed ones" in that time, which I see as a historical prophecy(future)- I know some folks see the two witnesses as a metaphor for something broader. IMO they will be two men in Jerusalem at the end of the age.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 07, 2014, 09:08:25 PM
In Zecchariah the two anointed ones were Joshua and Zerrubabel. While some speculate that the two witnesses will be Elijah and Enoch, which I consider a reasonable conclusion, I also think it quite possible that there will be two entirely different(new) "anointed ones" in that time, which I see as a historical prophecy(future)- I know some folks see the two witnesses as a metaphor for something broader. IMO they will be two men in Jerusalem at the end of the age.
I lean toward that interpretation/understanding too.. :smile: