UR and the Kingdom of God - Will You Be There?

[Ken]

Greetings,

While we are all guaranteed eternal life (UR), we may not be guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of God. Check out this article to see if our "attitude" might be the deciding factor:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

[jabcat]

Hi Ken.  You're the author of the article, right?

I'll look more at it later, but I see some interesting, thought-provoking things there that are certainly worth discussing further.   James.

(Molly, I see some things about the millinial that might interest you.)

[Ken]

Hello James,

Yes, I am the author of the article, though I quote quite heavily from the late Dr. Ernest L. Martin.

Thanks for checking it out.

Ken

[shawn]

Interesting read Ken...much to ponder, and pray about.

[CHB]

Hi Ken,

So, are you saying it is all up to us where we will wind up?

CHB

[mplsfitter539]

Hello Ken and welcome to Tentmaker.
As I read your article it reminded me of the things I learned from the Church of God. I never did become a member for many reasons but mostly because it was exclusive. What the experience did for me was open my eyes to the Kingdom of God. It was the catalyst that began my journey into UR. Until I began to research what the early (100-500AD) church proclaimed as the gospel I had not thought much about the millennial kingdom age here on earth. I have to agree with you on the attitude issue. Many Christians believe all of God's laws were nailed to the cross along with the hand written ordinances which leads to a wrong attitude. Understanding scripture correctly leads to the proper attitude. Once I understood that God's laws are not part of the hand written ordinances which were added by mere men it changed me.
IMO Christians should be looking forward to the kingdom age here on earth and stop focusing on "going to heaven" after this body dies.   
Thanks for the great post  :banana:

[shawn]

Hi Ken,

So, are you saying it is all up to us where we will wind up?

CHB

I was about to predict this turning into a free will debate....lol.   :laughing7:

[CHB]

shawn, your predictions are off a little bit, well, relating to me anyway.

I already know the answer I will get.

mplsfitter, I was once a member of the WWCG. I am surprised you even got to attend services if you weren't a member? How did that happen? They wouldn't even let non members in the doors. May I ask where you attended services?

CHB

[Ken]

Hello CHB,

Yes, it would appear that it is up to us to at least try. Otherwise, why would Jesus be making all of these KOG statements?

Now, perhaps at a certain level (that we do not fully understand at this time) the decision for us to try to live lives worthy of selection into the KOG has already been determined. But if it has, it is way beyond my grasp and comprehension. I can only go by Jesus' statements and admonitions as I see and understand them in the Bible.

Thanks for asking.

Ken

Hi Ken,

So, are you saying it is all up to us where we will wind up?

CHB

[jabcat]

Hi again Ken.  Enjoying your manner of interaction with folks, thanks :).

I actually think about the Kingdom of God and/or Kingdom of Heaven.   A couple of questions/thoughts.

I've often wondered what those kingdoms are.  In one place it says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy spirit.  I've wondered if that simply means that as we obey Him, walk closely, etc., that we experience the joy and fulfillment that comes from that - vs. disobedience causing consequences, the feelings of guilt and alienation we get = "not being in the kingdom".  Then others of course think it means "heaven".   I do plan to get back to your article, you may answer there if I look more closely.  In the meantime, how did you (and/or Dr. Martin) come to the definitive conclusion that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable terms for the Millinium?

Also, the past few years I've wondered how many things Jesus taught prior to the cross were about things of that age, i.e., still in the age of Law, and especially, while He was still physically walking the earth - and peoples' interactions, response, relationship with Him;  vs., "everything" having to do with far off future.  Personally, I believe there's something to that, but I also believe it's hard to rightly divide, with of course the danger of overlooking things He does want us looking forward (and current) to. 

Thanks, please share what you've come to understand about all that.  Blessings.

[mplsfitter539]

mplsfitter, I was once a member of the WWCG. I am surprised you even got to attend services if you weren't a member? How did that happen? They wouldn't even let non members in the doors. May I ask where you attended services?

CHB

CHB 
I pursued membership for quite some time and when they finally agreed to allow me to become a member and attend I found UR. UR saved me from COG but as I said I learned things from reading their material that I had never known. It was a great experience and I really grew from it but the COG was not for me after discovering UR. If I would have attended it would have been here in Mpls MN. 

[Ken]

Hello mplsfitter539,

Thank you for the welcome. I have been watching Tentmaker from the sidelines for the last ten years. I believe this is my first post.

I was an official member of the WCG for almost ten years. Towards the end of the 70's, I left and aligned with the late Dr. Ernest L. Martin. I continue to promote his research through my website to this day.

Thanks for sharing your background, too. It is amazing the routes we have all taken and are still taking.

Ken

Hello Ken and welcome to Tentmaker.
As I read your article it reminded me of the things I learned from the Church of God. I never did become a member for many reasons but mostly because it was exclusive. What the experience did for me was open my eyes to the Kingdom of God. It was the catalyst that began my journey into UR. Until I began to research what the early (100-500AD) church proclaimed as the gospel I had not thought much about the millennial kingdom age here on earth. I have to agree with you on the attitude issue. Many Christians believe all of God's laws were nailed to the cross along with the hand written ordinances which leads to a wrong attitude. Understanding scripture correctly leads to the proper attitude. Once I understood that God's laws are not part of the hand written ordinances which were added by mere men it changed me.
IMO Christians should be looking forward to the kingdom age here on earth and stop focusing on "going to heaven" after this body dies.   
Thanks for the great post  :banana:

[Ken]

Hello Jabcat,

Thank you for your reply. You have some a good questions.

I base my understanding of the KOG primarily on Dr. Martin's research. In the preference to the article, I have many of his articles hyperlinked that would explain the KOG in more detail. You can also find more articles here: http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=Kingdom+of+God&sa=Google+Search and also at the end of the article (written by other people).

However, to help answer your questions in general, the Kingdom of God (AKA, the Kingdom of Heaven) will be set up upon Christ's return. The purpose will be to help rule the universe during the millennial period. Dr. Martin felt that the first 70 years would be a "training period" for those selected to be in the KOG. Some would be teachers, some priests and some rulers, etc.

While Dr. Martin did a good job of quoting the scriptures that reveal who would NOT be in the KOG, it was (and still is today by the Associates for Scriptural Knowledge) assumed that all of us (regardless of affiliation) who understood these scriptures would automatically be the ones selected.

I maintain, based on who the Bible says will definitely be in the KOG (and what they all had in common), that there is much more to this selection process than just not murdering someone today (or committing any of the other listed egregious sins). Even Jesus stressed that "few" would be chosen. If people are to be leaders in the KOG, they must learn to be followers in this world. Hence, the emphasis on "attitude". It is not a matter of having the most correct doctrine, but of having a teachable attitude.

Jesus also said there would be gnashing of teeth (upon being resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and discovering one was not selected for the first resurrection (or KOG)). This extreme emotional response could only be applicable to those who truly understood the KOG principles (today), and for whatever reason, failed to be selected (at the second coming or first resurrection).

Be sure to click on all of the hyperlinked words in the article for a fuller understanding.

Regarding your questions in the last paragraph, check out these two articles on why people didn't listen to Jesus' message:

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-04-19.htm

http://rationalchristianity.net/jesus_secret.html

I don't necessarily endorse the two websites these two (non-ASK) articles came from, but I did think they did give some good answers to common questions in their articles.

Thank you for your reply.

Ken

Hi again Ken.  Enjoying your manner of interaction with folks, thanks :).

I actually think about the Kingdom of God and/or Kingdom of Heaven.   A couple of questions/thoughts.

I've often wondered what those kingdoms are.  In one place it says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy spirit.  I've wondered if that simply means that as we obey Him, walk closely, etc., that we experience the joy and fulfillment that comes from that - vs. disobedience causing consequences, the feelings of guilt and alienation we get = "not being in the kingdom".  Then others of course think it means "heaven".   I do plan to get back to your article, you may answer there if I look more closely.  In the meantime, how did you (and/or Dr. Martin) come to the definitive conclusion that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable terms for the Millinium?

Also, the past few years I've wondered how many things Jesus taught prior to the cross were about things of that age, i.e., still in the age of Law, and especially, while He was still physically walking the earth - and peoples' interactions, response, relationship with Him;  vs., "everything" having to do with far off future.  Personally, I believe there's something to that, but I also believe it's hard to rightly divide, with of course the danger of overlooking things He does want us looking forward (and current) to. 

Thanks, please share what you've come to understand about all that.  Blessings.

[BirdSong]

Greetings,

While we are all guaranteed eternal life (UR), we may not be guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of God. Check out this article to see if our "attitude" might be the deciding factor:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Ken

Hello Ken. Very nice to meet you.  :URWelcome:

That was a very good read - and there are a lot of great points, especially about the everyday Christian's belief regarding "military warfare" and also the points you made concerning our "attitude." The only command Jesus gave us that qualify us as His disciples (and friends) is:

• John 16:12; 17 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. These things I command you, that you love one another."

This command is indeed all about "attitude" - so the importance of your point concerning our attitudes toward others cannot be overstated.


I believe there are still so many things we will not understand, or even comprehend, until they actual happen. God certainly has "a specific order" to His plan of salvation for all mankind. There is the firstfruit company who will definitely be the first into the kingdom. The question is: "Who are they?" Why are they?  I personally couldn't even remotely speculate about the answers.


Also, there are deeper spiritual truths within many of the passages. What exactly is an idolator in our day and age? Is the context religious idolatry? Or simply idolizing money, a job, personal ambition, a house, a car, a husband, a wife, an entertainer, a PRESIDENT, a Monarch, etc? 

And what about a whoremonger? Are we simply talking about an everyday prostitute on the streets? For example:

• Revelation 14:3-4 "....no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes."

I'm "assuming" these "virgins" are not eunuchs, or "males" who have never had sexual relations with women. In context, that wouldn't make too much sense. However, we are told that Babylon is a "WOMAN" - and also a "Harlot."

It would seem this 144,000 firstfruit company are "spiritual virgins" who do not fornicate with the 'women' who are known as the Great Harlot and her harlot daughters.

Who is the Great Harlot? In my opinion, considering the book of Revelation is written to the SEVEN CHURCHES (Seven = completeness = the entire church system), it would appear this Great Harlot is a massive religious system. Also, the book of Revelation says:

• Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her [Babylon], MY PEOPLE, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."

Jesus is calling HIS PEOPLE out of Babylon. Who are HIS PEOPLE? In our day, they are called Christians, so I see this Great Harlot Babylon as the massive religious system that masquerades as Christ's kingdom - i.e. - Orthodox Christianity.

IMO, these "SYMBOLIC" 144,000, the "firstfruits" of the kingdom are VIRGINS who do not fornicate with the harlot church system, but instead "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (in SPIRIT). They are not up to their ears in the "external, outward, carnal religions and denominations" within the Great Harlot.

I believe that "idolaters" and "whoremongers" (and the other mentioned things) can have very different "spiritual" meanings than simply "physical" Do's and Dont's.

Anyway, just some of my personal thoughts. Thank you again for your article. I enjoyed reading it very much.  :dsunny:

[reFORMer]

Birdsong,

When you say "Orthodox Christianity" I assume you mean so-called Christianity's Institutional mainstream approved as orthodox by men.  You do not mean the Eastern Orthodox specifically, as you go on to say:  "IMO, these "SYMBOLIC" 144,000, the "firstfruits" of the kingdom are VIRGINS who do not fornicate with the harlot church system, but instead "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (in SPIRIT). They are not up to their ears in the "external, outward, carnal religions and denominations" within the Great Harlot.

[BirdSong]

Birdsong,

When you say "Orthodox Christianity" I assume you mean so-called Christianity's Institutional mainstream approved as orthodox by men.  You do not mean the Eastern Orthodox specifically, as you go on to say:  "IMO, these "SYMBOLIC" 144,000, the "firstfruits" of the kingdom are VIRGINS who do not fornicate with the harlot church system, but instead "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (in SPIRIT). They are not up to their ears in the "external, outward, carnal religions and denominations" within the Great Harlot.

Hi reFORMer. Yes, not specific denominations that may happen to use the word 'Orthodox' in their title - but, as you said, the institutional mainstream - 38,000 denominations and counting.   :eek:

[redhotmagma]

birdsong  :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Hello Jabcat,

Thank you for your reply. You have some a good questions.

I base my understanding of the KOG primarily on Dr. Martin's research. In the preference to the article, I have many of his articles hyperlinked that would explain the KOG in more detail. You can also find more articles here: http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=Kingdom+of+God&sa=Google+Search and also at the end of the article (written by other people).

However, to help answer your questions in general, the Kingdom of God (AKA, the Kingdom of Heaven) will be set up upon Christ's return. The purpose will be to help rule the universe during the millennial period. Dr. Martin felt that the first 70 years would be a "training period" for those selected to be in the KOG. Some would be teachers, some priests and some rulers, etc.

While Dr. Martin did a good job of quoting the scriptures that reveal who would NOT be in the KOG, it was (and still is today by the Associates for Scriptural Knowledge) assumed that all of us (regardless of affiliation) who understood these scriptures would automatically be the ones selected.

I maintain, based on who the Bible says will definitely be in the KOG (and what they all had in common), that there is much more to this selection process than just not murdering someone today (or committing any of the other listed egregious sins). Even Jesus stressed that "few" would be chosen. If people are to be leaders in the KOG, they must learn to be followers in this world. Hence, the emphasis on "attitude". It is not a matter of having the most correct doctrine, but of having a teachable attitude.

Jesus also said there would be gnashing of teeth (upon being resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and discovering one was not selected for the first resurrection (or KOG)). This extreme emotional response could only be applicable to those who truly understood the KOG principles (today), and for whatever reason, failed to be selected (at the second coming or first resurrection).

Be sure to click on all of the hyperlinked words in the article for a fuller understanding.

Regarding your questions in the last paragraph, check out these two articles on why people didn't listen to Jesus' message:

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-04-19.htm

http://rationalchristianity.net/jesus_secret.html

I don't necessarily endorse the two websites these two (non-ASK) articles came from, but I did think they did give some good answers to common questions in their articles.

Thank you for your reply.

Ken

Hi again Ken.  Enjoying your manner of interaction with folks, thanks :).

I actually think about the Kingdom of God and/or Kingdom of Heaven.   A couple of questions/thoughts.

I've often wondered what those kingdoms are.  In one place it says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy spirit.  I've wondered if that simply means that as we obey Him, walk closely, etc., that we experience the joy and fulfillment that comes from that - vs. disobedience causing consequences, the feelings of guilt and alienation we get = "not being in the kingdom".  Then others of course think it means "heaven".   I do plan to get back to your article, you may answer there if I look more closely.  In the meantime, how did you (and/or Dr. Martin) come to the definitive conclusion that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable terms for the Millinium?

Also, the past few years I've wondered how many things Jesus taught prior to the cross were about things of that age, i.e., still in the age of Law, and especially, while He was still physically walking the earth - and peoples' interactions, response, relationship with Him;  vs., "everything" having to do with far off future.  Personally, I believe there's something to that, but I also believe it's hard to rightly divide, with of course the danger of overlooking things He does want us looking forward (and current) to. 

Thanks, please share what you've come to understand about all that.  Blessings.

Hi Ken,

My understanding is, if works determine whether or not one is in the kingdom of God then, it stands to reason that those who practice or believe in works are the ones who will be in it. At this time it appears to me that the Israelites will be the biggest part of the Kingdom because it was to them that it was promised. Jesus told the twelve disciples that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul was not one of the twelve also he was sent to the Gentiles. Those who believe/have been shown the Mystery, or believe that we are already sitting in heaven will not need to be in this Kingdom of God here on earth, we will have already learned that Christ has fulfilled all the laws. I think this Kingdom of God on earth is for teaching those who haven't come to see that Christ has fulfilled all laws and this is where they will be taught by God and the twelve apostles. After this period, however long it may be, we will all be in all and one with God.

I have read pretty much everything Dr. Martin has written and I agree with a great deal of what he says although there are a few things that I see a little different. I don't believe we by ourselves have anything to do with where we will be. It is God working in us and leading us where he wants us to go.

CHB

[rjohnson741]

Greetings,

While we are all guaranteed eternal life (UR), we may not be guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of God. Check out this article to see if our "attitude" might be the deciding factor:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Ken

Everyone is not guaranteed eternal life. Only believers are guaranteed eternal/eonian life(John 3:16). Our living forever is not contingent on eternal/eonian life. Everyone will live forever when we put on immortality(1Corinthians 15:53-54).

[mplsfitter539]

CHB,
144 thousand is only signified in one book of the scriptures ..Revelation.It is a very unique number of the Fn sequence .It is Fn12....it is the only Fn besides Fn1 that is the square of Its Fn
Fn1=1
1x1=1
Fn12=144
12x12=144


It is not used in this passage as a literal number. The number 144 is representation of the sum total of the equation. God's Hebrew word is mathematically perfect. 144 divides by the number 8 perfectly, what a glorious number it is!  :banana:

[BirdSong]

At this time it appears to me that the Israelites will be the biggest part of the Kingdom because it was to them that it was promised. Jesus told the twelve disciples that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul was not one of the twelve also he was sent to the Gentiles.

CHB

After Christ died and was resurrected as Spirit, there are no more hereditary distinctions. Now there are only two distinctions: those in Christ; those NOT in Christ. The FLESH and the SPIRIT are the only "races" in our species.

• Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abrahams seed, and HEIRS according to the promise."

In my humble opinion, the "two administrations" doctrine of Knoch and others is wrong, IF we are to believe Paul.


A lot of confusion comes from the passage below, but if you read it closely, it is straightforward:

• Romans 9:7-8  "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

It's easy for one to see the word "Isaac" and automatically think - "natural seed" of Israel. But that's not what Paul is saying. Notice what is highlighted: "They which are the children OF THE FLESH, these ARE NOT the children of God." This has to do with a distinction between THE FLESH and THE SPIRIT. No races, ethnicity..... "physical" ancestry is irrelevant:

• Ephesians 2:16, 18  "And that he might reconcile BOTH [Jew and Gentile] unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. For through Him we BOTH have access by ONE SPIRIT to the Father."

I see the 144,000 as being a symbolic 144,000 (12 X 12 X 1,000 --------- 12 = govermental perfection ---- 1,000 = God's kingdom). The 12 tribes are a Spiritual 12 tribes if we are to believe the words of Paul. If Israel is now defined as those who are "in Christ" then the symbolic 144,000 are chosen out of a larger group of those who are "in Christ." The physical lineage (seed) is not a factor, and is irrelevant IMO.

Just my thoughts  :coffee2:

[CHB]

I don't believe that 144,000 is all that will be in the Kingdom.  Knoch Is not where I got the information I got the information from the Bible.

Who I think is "children of the flesh" are those who keep law and that is not just Israelites.

CHB

[marie glen]

from the article: "They will have to wait much later until the dispensation of the fullness of times" (Ephesians 1:10)

:doh: I never thought of it like that before! (but it's so obvious..)

Looks like a good read.. I just started.

[misszoolander]

I would love to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but I'm afraid my past and bad habits have crossed me out.

:pitiful: :bsad:

[jabcat]

I would love to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but I'm afraid my past and bad habits have crossed me out.

:pitiful: :bsad:

I sometimes relate to Paul, "the chiefest of sinners".  I'm most unworthy - only by His grace and mercy.  Read my little signature thingy under my name.

I believe He gives us/allows "warts".  It keeps us looking to Him and not trusting in ourselves, or placing any value in our works.   

Jesus forgives and cleanses "from all unrighteousness".  Look to Him - the author and finisher.  He who has begun a good work in you will complete it!