Greetings,
While we are all guaranteed eternal life (UR), we may not be guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of God. Check out this article to see if our "attitude" might be the deciding factor:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Ken
(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)
Hi Ken. You're the author of the article, right?
I'll look more at it later, but I see some interesting, thought-provoking things there that are certainly worth discussing further. James.
(Molly, I see some things about the millinial that might interest you.)
Hello James,
Yes, I am the author of the article, though I quote quite heavily from the late Dr. Ernest L. Martin.
Thanks for checking it out.
Ken
Interesting read Ken...much to ponder, and pray about.
Hi Ken,
So, are you saying it is all up to us where we will wind up?
CHB
Hello Ken and welcome to Tentmaker.
As I read your article it reminded me of the things I learned from the Church of God. I never did become a member for many reasons but mostly because it was exclusive. What the experience did for me was open my eyes to the Kingdom of God. It was the catalyst that began my journey into UR. Until I began to research what the early (100-500AD) church proclaimed as the gospel I had not thought much about the millennial kingdom age here on earth. I have to agree with you on the attitude issue. Many Christians believe all of God's laws were nailed to the cross along with the hand written ordinances which leads to a wrong attitude. Understanding scripture correctly leads to the proper attitude. Once I understood that God's laws are not part of the hand written ordinances which were added by mere men it changed me.
IMO Christians should be looking forward to the kingdom age here on earth and stop focusing on "going to heaven" after this body dies.
Thanks for the great post :banana:
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2013, 08:52:39 PM
Hi Ken,
So, are you saying it is all up to us where we will wind up?
CHB
I was about to predict this turning into a free will debate....lol. :laughing7:
shawn, your predictions are off a little bit, well, relating to me anyway.
I already know the answer I will get.
mplsfitter, I was once a member of the WWCG. I am surprised you even got to attend services if you weren't a member? How did that happen? They wouldn't even let non members in the doors. May I ask where you attended services?
CHB
Hello CHB,
Yes, it would appear that it is up to us to at least try. Otherwise, why would Jesus be making all of these KOG statements?
Now, perhaps at a certain level (that we do not fully understand at this time) the decision for us to try to live lives worthy of selection into the KOG has already been determined. But if it has, it is way beyond my grasp and comprehension. I can only go by Jesus' statements and admonitions as I see and understand them in the Bible.
Thanks for asking.
Ken
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2013, 08:52:39 PM
Hi Ken,
So, are you saying it is all up to us where we will wind up?
CHB
Hi again Ken. Enjoying your manner of interaction with folks, thanks :).
I actually think about the Kingdom of God and/or Kingdom of Heaven. A couple of questions/thoughts.
I've often wondered what those kingdoms are. In one place it says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy spirit. I've wondered if that simply means that as we obey Him, walk closely, etc., that we experience the joy and fulfillment that comes from that - vs. disobedience causing consequences, the feelings of guilt and alienation we get = "not being in the kingdom". Then others of course think it means "heaven". I do plan to get back to your article, you may answer there if I look more closely. In the meantime, how did you (and/or Dr. Martin) come to the definitive conclusion that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable terms for the Millinium?
Also, the past few years I've wondered how many things Jesus taught prior to the cross were about things of that age, i.e., still in the age of Law, and especially, while He was still physically walking the earth - and peoples' interactions, response, relationship with Him; vs., "everything" having to do with far off future. Personally, I believe there's something to that, but I also believe it's hard to rightly divide, with of course the danger of overlooking things He does want us looking forward (and current) to.
Thanks, please share what you've come to understand about all that. Blessings.
Quote from: CHB on April 11, 2013, 01:30:27 AM
mplsfitter, I was once a member of the WWCG. I am surprised you even got to attend services if you weren't a member? How did that happen? They wouldn't even let non members in the doors. May I ask where you attended services?
CHB
CHB
I pursued membership for quite some time and when they finally agreed to allow me to become a member and attend I found UR. UR saved me from COG but as I said I learned things from reading their material that I had never known. It was a great experience and I really grew from it but the COG was not for me after discovering UR. If I would have attended it would have been here in Mpls MN.
Hello mplsfitter539,
Thank you for the welcome. I have been watching Tentmaker from the sidelines for the last ten years. I believe this is my first post.
I was an official member of the WCG for almost ten years. Towards the end of the 70's, I left and aligned with the late Dr. Ernest L. Martin. I continue to promote his research through my website to this day.
Thanks for sharing your background, too. It is amazing the routes we have all taken and are still taking.
Ken
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on April 10, 2013, 09:41:20 PM
Hello Ken and welcome to Tentmaker.
As I read your article it reminded me of the things I learned from the Church of God. I never did become a member for many reasons but mostly because it was exclusive. What the experience did for me was open my eyes to the Kingdom of God. It was the catalyst that began my journey into UR. Until I began to research what the early (100-500AD) church proclaimed as the gospel I had not thought much about the millennial kingdom age here on earth. I have to agree with you on the attitude issue. Many Christians believe all of God's laws were nailed to the cross along with the hand written ordinances which leads to a wrong attitude. Understanding scripture correctly leads to the proper attitude. Once I understood that God's laws are not part of the hand written ordinances which were added by mere men it changed me.
IMO Christians should be looking forward to the kingdom age here on earth and stop focusing on "going to heaven" after this body dies.
Thanks for the great post :banana:
Hello Jabcat,
Thank you for your reply. You have some a good questions.
I base my understanding of the KOG primarily on Dr. Martin's research. In the preference to the article, I have many of his articles hyperlinked that would explain the KOG in more detail. You can also find more articles here: http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=Kingdom+of+God&sa=Google+Search (http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=Kingdom+of+God&sa=Google+Search) and also at the end of the article (written by other people).
However, to help answer your questions in general, the Kingdom of God (AKA, the Kingdom of Heaven) will be set up upon Christ's return. The purpose will be to help rule the universe during the millennial period. Dr. Martin felt that the first 70 years would be a "training period" for those selected to be in the KOG. Some would be teachers, some priests and some rulers, etc.
While Dr. Martin did a good job of quoting the scriptures that reveal who would NOT be in the KOG, it was (and still is today by the Associates for Scriptural Knowledge) assumed that all of us (regardless of affiliation) who understood these scriptures would automatically be the ones selected.
I maintain, based on who the Bible says
will definitely be in the KOG (and what they all had in common), that there is much more to this selection process than just
not murdering someone today (or committing any of the other listed egregious sins). Even Jesus stressed that "few" would be chosen. If people are to be leaders in the KOG, they must learn to be followers in this world. Hence, the emphasis on "attitude". It is not a matter of having the most correct doctrine, but of having a
teachable attitude.
Jesus also said there would be gnashing of teeth (upon being resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and discovering one was not selected for the first resurrection (or KOG)). This extreme emotional response could only be applicable to those who truly understood the KOG principles (today), and for whatever reason, failed to be selected (at the second coming or first resurrection).
Be sure to click on all of the hyperlinked words in the article for a fuller understanding.
Regarding your questions in the last paragraph, check out these two articles on why people didn't listen to Jesus' message:
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-04-19.htm (http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-04-19.htm)
http://rationalchristianity.net/jesus_secret.html (http://rationalchristianity.net/jesus_secret.html)
I don't necessarily endorse the two websites these two (non-ASK) articles came from, but I did think they did give some good answers to common questions in their articles.
Thank you for your reply.
Ken
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 03:41:06 AM
Hi again Ken. Enjoying your manner of interaction with folks, thanks :).
I actually think about the Kingdom of God and/or Kingdom of Heaven. A couple of questions/thoughts.
I've often wondered what those kingdoms are. In one place it says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy spirit. I've wondered if that simply means that as we obey Him, walk closely, etc., that we experience the joy and fulfillment that comes from that - vs. disobedience causing consequences, the feelings of guilt and alienation we get = "not being in the kingdom". Then others of course think it means "heaven". I do plan to get back to your article, you may answer there if I look more closely. In the meantime, how did you (and/or Dr. Martin) come to the definitive conclusion that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable terms for the Millinium?
Also, the past few years I've wondered how many things Jesus taught prior to the cross were about things of that age, i.e., still in the age of Law, and especially, while He was still physically walking the earth - and peoples' interactions, response, relationship with Him; vs., "everything" having to do with far off future. Personally, I believe there's something to that, but I also believe it's hard to rightly divide, with of course the danger of overlooking things He does want us looking forward (and current) to.
Thanks, please share what you've come to understand about all that. Blessings.
Quote from: Ken on April 10, 2013, 07:11:55 AM
Greetings,
While we are all guaranteed eternal life (UR), we may not be guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of God. Check out this article to see if our "attitude" might be the deciding factor:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Ken
Hello Ken. Very nice to meet you. :URWelcome:
That was a very good read - and there are a lot of great points, especially about the everyday Christian's belief regarding
"military warfare" and also the points you made concerning our
"attitude." The only command Jesus gave us that qualify us as His disciples
(and friends) is:
- John 16:12; 17 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. These things I command you, that you love one another."
This command is indeed all about
"attitude" - so the importance of your point concerning
our attitudes toward others cannot be overstated.
I believe there are still so many things we will not understand, or even comprehend, until they actual happen. God certainly has
"a specific order" to His plan of salvation for all mankind. There is
the firstfruit company who will definitely be
the first into the kingdom. The question is:
"Who are they?" Why are they? I personally couldn't even remotely speculate about the answers.
Also, there are deeper
spiritual truths within many of the passages. What exactly is
an idolator in
our day and age? Is the context
religious idolatry? Or simply idolizing
money, a job, personal ambition, a house, a car, a husband, a wife, an entertainer, a PRESIDENT, a Monarch, etc?
And what about a whoremonger? Are we simply talking about an
everyday prostitute on the streets? For example:
- Revelation 14:3-4 "....no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes."
I'm
"assuming" these
"virgins" are not
eunuchs, or
"males" who have never had sexual relations with women. In context, that wouldn't make too much sense. However, we are told that
Babylon is a
"WOMAN" - and also a
"Harlot." It would seem this
144,000 firstfruit company are
"spiritual virgins" who do not
fornicate with the 'women' who are known as the Great Harlot and her
harlot daughters.
Who is the Great Harlot? In my opinion, considering the book of Revelation is written to the
SEVEN CHURCHES (Seven = completeness = the entire church system), it would appear this Great Harlot is a
massive religious system. Also, the book of Revelation says:
- Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her [Babylon], MY PEOPLE, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."
Jesus is calling
HIS PEOPLE out of Babylon. Who are
HIS PEOPLE? In our day, they are called
Christians, so I see this Great Harlot Babylon as the massive religious system that masquerades as Christ's kingdom - i.e. -
Orthodox Christianity.
IMO, these
"SYMBOLIC" 144,000, the
"firstfruits" of the kingdom are
VIRGINS who
do not fornicate with the harlot church system, but instead
"follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (in SPIRIT). They are not up to their ears in the
"external, outward, carnal religions and denominations" within the Great Harlot.
I believe that
"idolaters" and
"whoremongers" (and the other mentioned things) can have very different
"spiritual" meanings than simply
"physical" Do's and Dont's.
Anyway, just some of my personal thoughts. Thank you again for your article. I enjoyed reading it very much. :dsunny:
Birdsong,
When you say "Orthodox Christianity" I assume you mean so-called Christianity's Institutional mainstream approved as orthodox by men. You do not mean the Eastern Orthodox specifically, as you go on to say: "IMO, these "SYMBOLIC" 144,000, the "firstfruits" of the kingdom are VIRGINS who do not fornicate with the harlot church system, but instead "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (in SPIRIT). They are not up to their ears in the "external, outward, carnal religions and denominations" within the Great Harlot.
Quote from: reFORMer on April 12, 2013, 09:30:33 AM
Birdsong,
When you say "Orthodox Christianity" I assume you mean so-called Christianity's Institutional mainstream approved as orthodox by men. You do not mean the Eastern Orthodox specifically, as you go on to say: "IMO, these "SYMBOLIC" 144,000, the "firstfruits" of the kingdom are VIRGINS who do not fornicate with the harlot church system, but instead "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (in SPIRIT). They are not up to their ears in the "external, outward, carnal religions and denominations" within the Great Harlot.
Hi reFORMer. Yes, not specific denominations that may happen to use the word
'Orthodox' in their title - but, as you said, the
institutional mainstream - 38,000 denominations and counting. :eek:
birdsong :thumbsup:
Quote from: Ken on April 11, 2013, 04:43:18 AM
Hello Jabcat,
Thank you for your reply. You have some a good questions.
I base my understanding of the KOG primarily on Dr. Martin's research. In the preference to the article, I have many of his articles hyperlinked that would explain the KOG in more detail. You can also find more articles here: http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=Kingdom+of+God&sa=Google+Search (http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=Kingdom+of+God&sa=Google+Search) and also at the end of the article (written by other people).
However, to help answer your questions in general, the Kingdom of God (AKA, the Kingdom of Heaven) will be set up upon Christ's return. The purpose will be to help rule the universe during the millennial period. Dr. Martin felt that the first 70 years would be a "training period" for those selected to be in the KOG. Some would be teachers, some priests and some rulers, etc.
While Dr. Martin did a good job of quoting the scriptures that reveal who would NOT be in the KOG, it was (and still is today by the Associates for Scriptural Knowledge) assumed that all of us (regardless of affiliation) who understood these scriptures would automatically be the ones selected.
I maintain, based on who the Bible says will definitely be in the KOG (and what they all had in common), that there is much more to this selection process than just not murdering someone today (or committing any of the other listed egregious sins). Even Jesus stressed that "few" would be chosen. If people are to be leaders in the KOG, they must learn to be followers in this world. Hence, the emphasis on "attitude". It is not a matter of having the most correct doctrine, but of having a teachable attitude.
Jesus also said there would be gnashing of teeth (upon being resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and discovering one was not selected for the first resurrection (or KOG)). This extreme emotional response could only be applicable to those who truly understood the KOG principles (today), and for whatever reason, failed to be selected (at the second coming or first resurrection).
Be sure to click on all of the hyperlinked words in the article for a fuller understanding.
Regarding your questions in the last paragraph, check out these two articles on why people didn't listen to Jesus' message:
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-04-19.htm (http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-04-19.htm)
http://rationalchristianity.net/jesus_secret.html (http://rationalchristianity.net/jesus_secret.html)
I don't necessarily endorse the two websites these two (non-ASK) articles came from, but I did think they did give some good answers to common questions in their articles.
Thank you for your reply.
Ken
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 03:41:06 AM
Hi again Ken. Enjoying your manner of interaction with folks, thanks :).
I actually think about the Kingdom of God and/or Kingdom of Heaven. A couple of questions/thoughts.
I've often wondered what those kingdoms are. In one place it says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy spirit. I've wondered if that simply means that as we obey Him, walk closely, etc., that we experience the joy and fulfillment that comes from that - vs. disobedience causing consequences, the feelings of guilt and alienation we get = "not being in the kingdom". Then others of course think it means "heaven". I do plan to get back to your article, you may answer there if I look more closely. In the meantime, how did you (and/or Dr. Martin) come to the definitive conclusion that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable terms for the Millinium?
Also, the past few years I've wondered how many things Jesus taught prior to the cross were about things of that age, i.e., still in the age of Law, and especially, while He was still physically walking the earth - and peoples' interactions, response, relationship with Him; vs., "everything" having to do with far off future. Personally, I believe there's something to that, but I also believe it's hard to rightly divide, with of course the danger of overlooking things He does want us looking forward (and current) to.
Thanks, please share what you've come to understand about all that. Blessings.
Hi Ken,
My understanding is, if works determine whether or not one is in the kingdom of God then, it stands to reason that those who practice or believe in works are the ones who will be in it. At this time it appears to me that the Israelites will be the biggest part of the Kingdom because it was to them that it was promised. Jesus told the twelve disciples that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul was not one of the twelve also he was sent to the Gentiles. Those who believe/have been shown the Mystery, or believe that we are already sitting in heaven will not need to be in this Kingdom of God here on earth, we will have already learned that Christ has fulfilled all the laws. I think this Kingdom of God on earth is for teaching those who haven't come to see that Christ has fulfilled all laws and this is where they will be taught by God and the twelve apostles. After this period, however long it may be, we will all be in all and one with God.
I have read pretty much everything Dr. Martin has written and I agree with a great deal of what he says although there are a few things that I see a little different. I don't believe we by ourselves have anything to do with where we will be. It is God working in us and leading us where he wants us to go.
CHB
Quote from: Ken on April 10, 2013, 07:11:55 AM
Greetings,
While we are all guaranteed eternal life (UR), we may not be guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of God. Check out this article to see if our "attitude" might be the deciding factor:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Ken
Everyone is not guaranteed eternal life. Only believers are guaranteed eternal/eonian life(John 3:16). Our living forever is not contingent on eternal/eonian life. Everyone will live forever when we put on immortality(1Corinthians 15:53-54).
CHB,
144 thousand is only signified in one book of the scriptures ..Revelation.It is a very unique number of the Fn sequence .It is Fn12....it is the only Fn besides Fn1 that is the square of Its Fn
Fn1=1
1x1=1
Fn12=144
12x12=144
It is not used in this passage as a literal number. The number 144 is representation of the sum total of the equation. God's Hebrew word is mathematically perfect. 144 divides by the number 8 perfectly, what a glorious number it is! :banana:
Quote from: CHB on April 12, 2013, 06:03:05 PM
At this time it appears to me that the Israelites will be the biggest part of the Kingdom because it was to them that it was promised. Jesus told the twelve disciples that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul was not one of the twelve also he was sent to the Gentiles.
CHB
After Christ died and was resurrected as Spirit, there are no more
hereditary distinctions. Now there are only
two distinctions: those
in Christ; those
NOT in Christ. The
FLESH and the
SPIRIT are the only
"races" in our species.
- Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abrahams seed, and HEIRS according to the promise."
In my humble opinion, the
"two administrations" doctrine of Knoch and others is wrong,
IF we are to believe Paul.
A lot of confusion comes from the passage below, but if you read it closely, it is straightforward:
- Romans 9:7-8 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
It's easy for one to see the word
"Isaac" and automatically think -
"natural seed" of Israel. But that's not what Paul is saying. Notice what is highlighted:
"They which are the children OF THE FLESH, these ARE NOT the children of God." This has to do with a distinction between
THE FLESH and
THE SPIRIT. No races, ethnicity.....
"physical" ancestry is irrelevant:
- Ephesians 2:16, 18 "And that he might reconcile BOTH [Jew and Gentile] unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. For through Him we BOTH have access by ONE SPIRIT to the Father."
I see the
144,000 as being a
symbolic 144,000
(12 X 12 X 1,000 --------- 12 = govermental perfection ---- 1,000 = God's kingdom). The 12 tribes are a
Spiritual 12 tribes if we are to believe the words of Paul. If
Israel is now defined as those who are
"in Christ" then the symbolic 144,000 are chosen out of
a larger group of those who are
"in Christ." The
physical lineage
(seed) is not a factor, and is irrelevant IMO.
Just my thoughts :coffee2:
I don't believe that 144,000 is all that will be in the Kingdom. Knoch Is not where I got the information I got the information from the Bible.
Who I think is "children of the flesh" are those who keep law and that is not just Israelites.
CHB
from the article: "They will have to wait much later until the dispensation of the fullness of times" (Ephesians 1:10)
:doh: I never thought of it like that before! (but it's so obvious..)
Looks like a good read.. I just started.
I would love to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but I'm afraid my past and bad habits have crossed me out.
:pitiful: :bsad:
Quote from: misszoolander on April 13, 2013, 12:06:09 AM
I would love to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but I'm afraid my past and bad habits have crossed me out.
:pitiful: :bsad:
I sometimes relate to Paul, "the chiefest of sinners". I'm
most unworthy - only by His grace and mercy. Read my little signature thingy under my name.
I believe He gives us/allows "warts". It keeps us looking to Him and not trusting in ourselves, or placing any value in our works.
Jesus forgives and cleanses "from all unrighteousness". Look to Him - the author and finisher. He who has begun a good work in you will complete it!
Well said Jab,
The Lord gives me great hope, whatever is my fate I trust in him :HeartThrob:
Quote from: misszoolander on April 13, 2013, 12:06:09 AM
I would love to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but I'm afraid my past and bad habits have crossed me out.
:pitiful: :bsad:
If the past were relevant,
NO ONE would inherit the kingdom of God. Paul said,
"I die daily." That
"old man" (or woman) who existed the day before is gone. Each day we live, we grow and learn, and the person we knew (ourselves) the day before is dead and gone.
Quote from: misszoolander on April 13, 2013, 12:06:09 AM
I would love to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but I'm afraid my past and bad habits have crossed me out.
:pitiful: :bsad:
I seriously hope that you meant this in jest.
I agree pretty much with this article. It tells what happens to those who understand that works are not necessary for salvation.
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
CHB
No offence meant but this sounds a bit like conditional salvation. My attitude, my works and "maybe" I'll get into the Kingdom of God? If I have to rely on anything but the righteousness of Christ, then I'm sunk. The fact is that we don't really know about these things and the aions, a time will come though, when we will.
Jock
Here's Martin Zender's take
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBRdIDFomTg
Now, I leave myself open to correction cuz I can be wrong.
Jock,
Thank you for introducing me to Martin Zender he is a hoot. My favorite video is the one where he destroys the false doctrine of the trinity and then proceeds to throw cheap eggs at it and crush it with a backhoe. :banana:
QuoteNo offence meant but this sounds a bit like conditional salvation. My attitude, my works and "maybe" I'll get into the Kingdom of God? If I have to rely on anything but the righteousness of Christ, then I'm sunk. The fact is that we don't really know about these things and the aions, a time will come though, when we will.
Jock
Well the righteousness of God though Jesus Chist does get it done !
you could look at it like this , God is love right ?
the works done by the labour of Love , is the same thing as the Labour of God ?
If you can enterchange that God is Love and Love is God , when we have faith in God and obey we become the pliable hearts and vessels used for His Honor
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing
your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father
Hbr 6:10 For God [is]
not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have
shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
sometimes its very hard to distingish between a sinner and a saint
whats born flesh is flesh and whats born of spirit is spirit
but not all spirits are born of God are they ? there is a spirit of antichrist in the world
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and
this is that [spirit] of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. this spirit will be destroyed by Gods breath of His coming
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
some spirits needs to die
by the breath of His coming into them
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
I believe antichrist is anti Love because Jesus Christ is the Love and mercy and grace of God sent to us Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to
separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thanks Rosered, that clarified a few things for me. "We love God because He first loved us" As I experience the Lord in my life, His love, His faithfulness, His provision, His creation and all of it's wonders, my love for Him almost bursts through my chest!
My natural man would not love God but He has done a work in me and then His love flows through me. I had a vision once where I saw the Father and the Son in this sharing back and forward of this beautiful pure love. I declared that I would like to enter into that and Jesus said " You HAVE entered in".
Jock :declare:
Quote from: Jock on May 08, 2013, 08:29:52 PM
Thanks Rosered, that clarified a few things for me. "We love God because He first loved us" As I experience the Lord in my life, His love, His faithfulness, His provision, His creation and all of it's wonders, my love for Him almost bursts through my chest!
My natural man would not love God but He has done a work in me and then His love flows through me. I had a vision once where I saw the Father and the Son in this sharing back and forward of this beautiful pure love. I declared that I would like to enter into that and Jesus said " You HAVE entered in".
Jock :declare:
Thank you Jock for sharing that with us , I so agree with you I do believe with all my heart that everyones experience with the Lord God Almighty though Jesus Christ is different and happenes when we least expect it
this is why no man can know the day or Hour when Jesus comes , because this work of God is done all the time and every day and every way , each man in his own order
Paul help clarify that for me in Corinthians 15
I believe Jesus is very much ALIVE and those whom believe this have an advantage , Oh the power of HIS Cross !!! , when that happened the prince of this world was judged ! This is why its so important for us to take up our cross and follow Him , the Holy Spirit will come and guide us into all truth for His name sake ! Jesus own words
please read all of John 16 its proof that the Holy Spirit [God in Christ recociling the world unto Himself ] will come convicting us of sin ! and lead to all truth :dsunny:
The Holy Spirit Promised
5 "But now am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away;
for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 And He, when
He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
His promise to come again and 2nd time without sin for salvation :HeartThrob:Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
when you believe in Jesus Christ and His promises though Jesus Christ being made right unto the Holy Father death is not somthing to fear , for a new Life in Christ is promised to those whom wait on the Lord for His salvation
I love How He loves us first and now we can do nothing but Love Him back for what He has done !!
the
Amen!
Do you have any understanding of "outer darkness"?
Quote from: Jock on May 08, 2013, 09:14:54 PM
Amen!
Do you have any understanding of "outer darkness"?
I certainly have a view on that Jock , if its a perfect view , its doubtful :dunno2:
but you asked and I am willing to share this view , I also am always subject to change to a better view of course :Peace2:
To me the outer darkness with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth
two places I have found in the Word where these are found
IN outer darkness because of their gnashing of teeth
I love simple answers , plain and easy to remember , outer darkness greek meanings help its in a place limited outside and void of Light , Light is considered Knowledge of God
by this very scripture here , Jesus is the Light of the world and seeing Jesus face is how we will recognize Him by the Scriptures [open the scriptures to understand them ] and Holy Spirit [ oil to our lamps l]
lamps are eyes of understanding also lampstands are the seven churches [ seven eyes written on ONE STONE [JESUS CHRIST ]
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the
light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
but here is the two places
psalms a witness , seeing that the Holy Spirit is our Spirit of TRUTH and to guide us into all truth , it is a Light unto our path that we do notstumble
Psa 35:16 With
hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
darkness means ignorance to the ways of God , here is the greek meaning to help metaphorically speaking to me means cut off from Jesus Christ to just stumble and never coming to the knowledge of Truth because the Holy Spirit has left them at this time
Paul says here that the Holy Spirit bears witness to him that he is indeed walking in faith and not lying .
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
remember how the Lord said he would sear their conscience with a HOT IRON [ROD?to rule and reign with perhaps ] because they did NOT lOVE THE TRUTH [Holy Spirit ] the very Spirit of Truth ,, WOW the Spirit of truth is speaking expressly here !
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be
received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1Ti 4:6 ¶ If thou
put the brethren in remembrance of these things,
thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness
in them that perish; because
they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Here we see the judgements of God though Jesus and the Holy Spirit saying this in 3 places , witnessing to this as Truth
the 10 virgins 5 wise [ Holy Spirit oil in their lamps ] 5 foolish no oil /annoiting for Holy Spirit]
Mat 8:12 But
the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the
unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
the wedding party is the LOVE FEASTS , and if your no allowed to attend , like the man with no wedding garment , he was bound hand and foot and cast out of the celebrating
making him speechless but weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth are coming in the outer darkness /blindness to stumble
Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots
Strong's G4655 - skotos
1) darkness
a) of night darkness
b)
of darkened eyesight or blindness2) metaph.
a) of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell
b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him]
into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I would say cut off momentarily till you learn to fear the Lord and show respect and pray for forgiveness and ask the Holy Spirit to help you
remember how Jesus told those whom said , we see , there sin remained still blind and passed over because they did not want to be healed by Jesus Christ ! yikes !
eyesalve ! so you may see that Jesus is the WAY TRUTH and the Life rev 3 Rev 3:18 I counsel thee
to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear;
and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. Asking the Father for His Holy Spirit , not the spirit of antichrist , working against Gods will and the Love in Christ Jesus !!
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Jhn 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
Jhn 9:38 And he said, Lord,
I believe. And he worshipped him.
Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said,
For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Jhn 9:40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him,
Are we blind also? Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remains.
I know this is very long Jock , but I wanted to try and touch on all points of the outer darknenss and the Light of Christ giving some contrast , hope this helps in some way for your answer of outer darkness , I only think its for a time though
O'Rose..what a great post!!! the scribes,pharisees etc..hypocrites..like to condemn people through the law..but they are
hypocrites because of it..for the law shows they have sin.But they sit in judgement of the law..and hypocritically declare
themselves righteous by the law[not the purpose of law,law can not make perfect] Cheating pair of scales they use.
they refuse the spirit of truth/grace/forgiveness of sin/not counting tresspasses against you.
they refuse to enter through grace..instead preferring the work of their own hands[law] which where shown as wicked
when they condemned their Messiah and killed Him..not only did they fail to say'Blessed is he who comes in the name
of the Lord" and fail to enter..but hindered those who would[accept grace as basis for salvation and not works of our own hands]
thus they find theirselves outside the kingdom..while harlots and tax-collectors enter through grace..and a righteousness
not of themselves,but Christ.
Ken, Do you think that is not so much the "attitude" of a believer but what is in the heart. Many people struggle with sin but yet it is in their hearts to please God and be free? Just a thought.
:dunno2:
Jock
Jock, I think you just hit on a very important point when you said, "Many people struggle with sin but yet it is in their hearts to please God and be free." Paul said, "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." [Romans 7.15, ESV] Paul was also painfully familiar with this scenario we (believers) face. It implies that we have the ability to make choices, and that we tend to keep making poor choices, despite our desire to please God by following his precepts. Paul seemed to have taught, over and over, that we ought to strive harder to make the right lifestyle choices.
I often see Christian billboards that say "Jesus is coming soon, are you ready?" Of course this is another way to pass on the virus of works=salvation. When Jesus comes for me (which I hope He does) and I look at myself, I would have to say I'm not ready but if I am looking at Him, YOU BET!!!
Have a good day
Jock
Quote from: Jock on July 23, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
I often see Christian billboards that say "Jesus is coming soon, are you ready?" Of course this is another way to pass on the virus of works=salvation. When Jesus comes for me (which I hope He does) and I look at myself, I would have to say I'm not ready but if I am looking at Him, YOU BET!!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Do not be discouraged. In Christ, there is no past, no future, Christ is NOW!
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
No self examination
:declare: :declare:
Jock