Weekly Spiritual Discipline

[eaglesway]

That's something I've been learning here lately, thankfully. I mean that disagreement is okay. I learned in childhood to fear disagreeable people (like Dad, because of abuse). I still tend to get a sinking feeling when people disagree with me strongly, especially if it seems irrational or angry. But I think I'm letting go of the deception behind my fear, so I'm escaping from that habitual reaction.

This is a beautiful statement, worthy of meditation by all, and a key to fulfilling the exhortations of Paul.....


"speaking the truth in love......Ephesiians 4

"The servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle towards all...... 1 Tim 2

"the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable........James 3

[Lloyd]

_VineBranch said: I'm afraid I have become a bit confused by your latest post Lloyd (which now I see is your second to lastest post).  If I may, I would like to ask some questions about what it contains.
- You said:  "I heard yesterday that even many Christians these days don't know what the Bible says, so I guess they're more in the "non-Christian" category." Did you mean to infer that one can only be a Christian if one knows what it says in the Bible?

>No, I meant sharing the gospel will have to be done differently depending on how familiar people already are with the Bible.

_VB: You said:  "They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between 'works' and 'faith', which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory." Did you mean to say that 'by works I am saved, and 'by faith I am saved' is saying the same thing?
- Just a note to clarify my position
- Faith, in the Greek comes from the word pistis.  This word means, credence or moral conviction.
- Works, in the Greek comes from the word ergon.  This word means: deed, doing, or labour.
- In English they share a base definition, but they are miles apart in connotation.

>Faith without works is dead. See Matthew 25 again for example. We need to have moral conviction and then we need to actually follow through on that moral conviction by doing the acts of love that we are "commanded" to do. If we do not follow through with action, then the so-called moral conviction, or faith, is a lie and we are mere pretenders, i.e. hypocrits.

VB: Lloyd said: "I think there's plenty of evidence that he did live on Earth as the Bible says, but I think what the Bible means to emphasize is following his example."
- I tried to work this into John 3:16.  This is what I came up with ... is this what you meant to say:  'For God so loved the world, that He may or may not have given his only son, that whomsoever follows the example of this perhaps randomly chosen being, the existence of whom can probably be confirmed, will have everlasting life, depending on how well they follow that example ... maybe'?

>Is that how foolish I seem to you? As I hinted at before, God appears to have known from the beginning that humanity would need a physical example of His likeness in order to understand well how to follow God's example of Love for all. So He intended from the beginning to provide us an example, which is Jesus Christ (Yahushuah). Since I'm not omniscient, I don't pretend to know much of anything for certain, besides that God is Love etc. I believe God only expects us to believe what makes sense to each of us individually and doesn't mean to frighten anyone into pretending to believe what doesn't make any sense to them.

_ded2daworld said: Pneuma is the ancient Greek word for breath. It has also come to mean Spirit or soul. ... Lloyd said it MAY mean spirit but then he goes on to say mental disposition or mind etc.(as if there are even more definitions). It has only come to mean mental disposition in English usage. It Never means mind. (at least biblically.

>I expect that Strong's is more of an authority on the definition of pneuma than you are and Strong's mentions all of the definitions that I mentioned. I think the Bible definitely advises us to have the mind or mental disposition of Christ, so interpreting pneuma as mind or mental disposition, as Strong's allows, is entirely consistent with the biblical message. I see that redhotmagma has supplied the Strong's definitions, which include what I had said.

- Ded: How come if the translation fits your belief it's OK but if it doesn't, it's translated wrong? That's convenient. Let's see, I guess it's alsmost as important to have the spirit of Christmas inside of us as the Holy spirit since Christmas means the mass of Christ and that is a sharing of his body. Oh, and the wine is a spirit so if we drink a lot of wine we are full of the spirit? IMO, you really fit what is at the bottom of my posts. You think the Bible is inspired in spots and that God tells you which spots. "Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?" No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

>You're using the same tactic as VB, sarcasm, apparently in an effort to show that my views are absurd. What I try to do is understand things in terms that make sense to me. I mentioned before that the Bible never made much sense to me until I read Messianic Jewish explanations of some of the major metaphors in the Bible.
>I believe the reason many Christians feel the need to say they "believe" what Christians are "supposed" to believe is they fear eternal damnation or they fear potential rejection by peers and loved ones. Most Quakers gave up on having a creed and settled for having membership contingent on being able to get along with other members.
>I have no objection to the possibility that the Bible was originally 100% the inspired word of God, but obviously you yourself don't accept conventional interpretations of eternal damnation in the Bible, if you believe in universal reconciliation. So you yourself don't support every word in the Bible as conventionally understood. Marie has provided some of the reasoning for rejecting eternal damnation.

_eaglesway: "speaking the truth in love......Ephesiians 4
"The servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle towards all...... 1 Tim 2
"the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable........James 3

>Oddly, all (or much) of that seems to mean "God". word = God = Jesus; speaking = word = God = Jesus; truth = Jesus = God = word; love = God etc; Lord = God = servant etc;

[Lloyd]

Grace vs Works
The original word in the New Testament translated into English as "grace" was "charis". Here's how Strong's dictionary defines it.

charis, (Greek 5485, Strong's): graciousness (as gratifying) of manner or act; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude; acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace, gracious, joy, liberality, pleasure, thank, thanks, thankworthy.

So, if you like, see if you think the following substitute words for grace (in bold letters) in the first 6 books of the New Testament sound right or not to you. The second definition above seems to be the most basic meaning, i.e. "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life", and "reflection in the life" suggests not just "believing" but also "doing". I shorten that definition to either "divine influence" or "divine life" in many of the following passages according to what seems to me to make the most sense. In many cases, several of the definitions seem to make sense.

_Luke 2:40 - And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the _divine influence_ of God was upon him.
_John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of _divine life_ and truth.
_John 1:16-17 - And of his fulness have all we received, and _divine life_ for _divine life_.
[17_[/b] For the law was given by Moses, but _divine life_ and truth came by Jesus Christ.
_Acts 4:33 - And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great _divine influence_ was upon them all.
_Acts 11:23 - Who, when he came, and had seen the _divine life_ of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
_Acts 13:43 - Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the _pleasure_ of God.
_Acts 14:3 - Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his _divine influence_, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
_Acts 14:26 - And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the _favor_ of God for the work which they fulfilled.
_Acts 15:11 - But we believe that through the _divine life_ of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
_Acts 15:40 - And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the _favor_ of God.
_Acts 18:27 - And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through _divine influence_:
_Acts 20:24 - But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the _divine life_ of God.
_Acts 20:32 - And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his _divine influence_, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
_Romans 1:5 - By whom we have received _divine life_ and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
_Romans 1:7 - To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: _joy_ to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
_Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his _divine life_ through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
_Romans 4:4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of _pleasure_, but of debt.
_Romans 4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by _pleasure_; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
_Romans 5:2 - By whom also we have access by faith into this _divine life_ wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
_Romans 5:15 - But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the _divine life_ of God, and the gift by _divine influence_, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
_Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of _divine life_ and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
_Romans 5:20-6:1 - Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, _divine influence_ did much more abound:
[21_[/b] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might _divine influence_ reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
[6:1_[/b] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that _divine influence_ may abound?
_Romans 6:14-15 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under _divine influence_.
[15_[/b] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under _divine influence_? God forbid.
_Romans 11:5-6 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of _divine influence_.
[6_[/b] And if by _divine influence_, then is it no more of works: otherwise _divine life_ is no more _divine life_. But if it be of works, then is it no more _divine influence_: otherwise work is no more work.
_Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the _divine life_ given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
_Romans 12:6 - Having then gifts differing according to the _favor_ that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
_Romans 15:15 - Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the _divine life_ that is given to me of God,
_Romans 16:20 - And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The _divine influence_ of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
_Romans 16:24 - The _divine influence_ of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[dajomaco]

I know of at least one person in modern times who did it as well.

Llyod you said you knew some one who walked in the example of Jesus.
Please tell me more about this person.
What was it that distinguished him to you.

[VineBranch]

Hello brother Lloyd:

I think I may have some of the problem figured here.  If you would, could you re-read your posts.  Then could you re-read your response to the posts.  After you have done that could you maybe reflect on how many times your rebuttal states the opposite of what the original post said.  I've noticed that a lot of times when there is a query to your post, your response to the query says you didn't say what they said you said.  When I then re-read your original post, a lot of times I find that it had indeed said what they said it said.

>Is that how foolish I seem to you?

You equated faith and works!

You're using the same tactic as VB, sarcasm, apparently in an effort to show that my views are absurd.

(As much as I would love to say that you don't need our help to do that, I won't, because that wouldn't be polite.)

Again, when you re-read the posts you might find that at first I used irony to prove my points.  The last little while however, I have bent over backwards to adopt what you said as having validity.  I changed my entire tact from statement to question to show you I was willing to try to understand what you were saying.  I now draw your attention to the usage of the past tense in that sentence.

[Lloyd]

- Lloyd said: I know of at least one person in modern times who did it as well.

_dajomaco said: Llyod you said you knew some one who walked in the example of Jesus. Please tell me more about this person. What was it that distinguished him to you.

>I didn't know him. I said he healed people like Jesus and the Apostles did. His name was Bruno Groening of Germany. He lived from about 1906 to 1959. He was reported to have healed many people much like the Apostles did. Spiritual influences seem to still carry on similar healing in his memory.

VineBranch said: ... When I then re-read your original post, a lot of times I find that it had indeed said what they said it said.

>People apparently make wrong assumptions about what I mean. If you don't understand something I said, feel free to mention specifically what it is. I'm annoyed that people seem brainwashed by conventional ET religion and that they assume that ET is the only error in conventional religion. Since annoyance is an unpleasant emotion and my bad emotions generally seem to be warnings from God that there's something wrong with my thinking or attitude etc, I reckon I need to ask God what my error probably is. Okay, I think God is telling me I'm paranoid and I need to let go of fear of being incompatible with others, because most URs et al won't hurt me.
Salvation
soteria, Greek 4991, Strong's: feminine of soter: rescue or safety: deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
soterion, Greek 4992, Strong's: neuter of soter: defender or defence: salvation.
- It appears that the four books of the gospel use the word salvation only 6 times.
_Luke 1:69 And has raised up a horn of soteria [rescue] for us in the house of his servant David;
_1:77 To give knowledge of soteria [rescue] unto his people by the remission of their sins,
_2:30 For my eyes have seen your soterion [defender or defense],
_3:6 And all flesh [mortals] shall see the soterion [defender or defense] of God.
_19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is soteria [rescue] come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
_John 4:22 You worship you know not what: we know what we worship: for soteria [rescue] is of the Jews.
My Views on Salvation
- Salvation means rescue from a life of fear and emotional suffering.
- It leads to "divine life" or a life of joy without fear.
- God often gives people a sample of "divine life".
- But people often fail to follow the discipline needed to retain divine life.
- So, although they know what salvation into divine life feels like, they don't know how to trust God or relinquish erroneous beliefs that divine life requires.
- This is apparently what happened to many of the Jews who became followers of the Apostles for a time, but eventually dropped away.
- Some examples of samples of divine life that God often gives people are:
1. the joy of being with people who are joyous with divine life, as was the case with the Jews who joined Jesus' disciples for a time;
2. the high feeling from being in love with someone physically;
3. the joy of having any kind of fun, whether physical, mental, or emotional; and
4. the high feelings from various addictions.
- The parable of the Prodigal Son is a great example of what salvation is like from the perspective of loved ones of an addict. They are overjoyed when their loved one is saved from a life of misery. The prodigal son was more or less an addict to gambling, wantonness etc. A lot of members of groups like AA and NA know the feeling of salvation from the perspective of the prodigal son himself.
- My own addiction was to carbohydrate foods etc. That came to be my only pleasure (false salvation) in life for a time. It was a miserable life and gave me determination to seek rescue (salvation). By joining a group of others who were being rescued from the same addiction, I felt the joy of what divine life is like. And that took away my addiction for a few months. But then it returned as bad as ever. Then I found someone in the group to help me do the spiritual discipline that was suggested (and that discipline came originally from the Bible) and when I finished with the moral inventory and let go of my "character defects", my addiction ended permanently. However, I think that was because I continued to follow the spiritual discipline ever since then.
- For several years after that I experienced something of the divine life, though it wasn't complete. It wasn't until my spiritual discipline, involving review of emotions for personal errors, uncovered my barrier to God, that the divine life began to be complete. The barrier was my false belief that God has the perfectionistic and dictatorial attributes that Dad had. I happily let that barrier be removed and became close friends of God.
- But it seems that spiritual growth never stops. I continue to have false beliefs that I need to let go of in order to continue in divine life. The most recent major false belief I relinquished was the belief that I need to fear and avoid those who seem to disagree with me irrationally or in unfriendly manners.
- There are also potential pitfalls that could lead me to further false beliefs and temporary loss of divine life. One is the problem of pain and misery in the world. That could lead to the belief that God isn't real or something. But so far I think I understand that the need for pain is to help people care about each other and to help us grow spiritually. I don't think we're supposed to enjoy pain, like masochists do, but we can come to not fear it, I guess. I don't know for certain, because I still do fear pain.
- So it seems that all will ultimately attain divine life, but we're always susceptible to losing it for a time. I think Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. I take the yoke to mean easy spiritual discipline. Most of us are burdened with false beliefs that produce miserable or unfulfilling lives. By taking Jesus' yoke of spiritual discipline, we let go of the burden of false beliefs, so our burden becomes increasingly lighter.

[ded2daworld]

Lloyd said, ">I didn't know him. I said he healed people like Jesus and the Apostles did. His name was Bruno Groening of Germany. He lived from about 1906 to 1959. He was reported to have healed many people much like the Apostles did. Spiritual influences seem to still carry on similar healing in his memory."

:sigh:Anectodal - to me thgat's as valid as seeing it on the internet or a movie. :sigh: Might as well buy all those "proven" yet only anecdotal messages of health and well being by taking vitamin or berry supplements. :sigh:

[dajomaco]

Llyod Jesus is the son of God and Is God.

You can't skip over this part and then continue on the way.

Ears can hear what is written.Jesus is Lord.

[reFORMer]

Strong's is not very good for unfolding the meaning of words in the original language.  It is a usage lexicon.  It shows how the underlying word has been translated.  There are several larger theological dictionaries that cost a bit more:  Colin Brown's, Kittel...Spiq, is in one large volume...Thayers is available free on the internet, as is Gesenius's on the OT, which I like a lot, at blueletterbible.org
_____________________________________________

It is true Jesus is our example.  Ephesians 5¹ (in the KJV) tells us to, "Be followers of God, as dear children."  The word "followers" in some modern versions is rendered "iimitators."

One of the early things in my walk with the Lord was coming across Jesus saying, "Of mine own self I can do nothing."  This means He could not live what we sometimes call, "The Christian Life."  Neither can you or I.  Jesus went on to say, "It is my Father, He doeth the works."  He also explained how this operates:  "I only do what I see my Father do."  He told us, "I only say what I hear the Father say."

I realized my goal was to see and hear my Father.  There's no way around it.  I could not come to walk in that anointing Jesus walked in (which is the inheritance He left for us when He died) unless I walked in a living experience of the presence of God.  Without the immediacy of seeing and hearing God we can't have what it is all about:  the men of God across the centuries, the Holy Bible, Jesus' victory...none of it is rightly apprehended unless we are full of the Holy Spirit.

A belief, even a right belief won't replace seeing, hearing, feeling God.  Indoctrination is no substitute for experience.  This "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is fought and explained away by many claiming to be Christians; but, if you sincerely want God's will for your life, you need to accept whatever the Spirit would do through you.  If need be, you can visit a lively Pentecostal or Charismatic church and let them counsel and pray with you to receive the Holy Ghost.  Don't seek to please men.  If you ask your Father for an egg He won't give you a stone.  Expect and enter into speaking in tongues.  Don't be afraid.  You need everything God has to give.  Ask for His Spirit and spend time in worshiping Jesus.  You need to be overwhelmed by His tangible presence.

[ded2daworld]

Ref said, "You need to be overwhelmed by His tangible presence."
Absolutely right.
However, IMO, tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit
nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.

[marie glen]

Strong's is not very good for unfolding the meaning of words in the original language.  It is a usage lexicon.  It shows how the underlying word has been translated.  There are several larger theological dictionaries that cost a bit more:  Colin Brown's, Kittel...Spiq, is in one large volume...Thayers is available free on the internet, as is Gesenius's on the OT, which I like a lot, at blueletterbible.org

Awesome! I'm glad you posted that! I have two parallel english and greek new testaments which still aren't that satisfactory.. though the one I got years ago from the wtchtower folks seems the better one.

...how much more we, if Jesus said He can do nothing of Himself!!! Yep, the Holy Ghost Baptism, being FiLLeD with God's Spirit and Presence is the total answer! Acts 2 (fulfilling that Jesus is our "sabbath rest" wherein God emphasized "no working upon the Sabbath". No works as salvation! Even the sermon on the mount revealed how far short "the law" is for pleasing God. This is His commandment, to believe on the One He sent forth. :smile: And Jesus said "my yoke is easy, my burden light"!

- There are also potential pitfalls that could lead me to further false beliefs and temporary loss of divine life. One is the problem of pain and misery in the world. That could lead to the belief that God isn't real or something..
- So it seems that all will ultimately attain divine life, but we're always susceptible to losing it for a time. I think Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. I take the yoke to mean easy spiritual discipline. Most of us are burdened with false beliefs that produce miserable or unfulfilling lives..

Hi, Lloyd! Jesus said we are all His and "no one can take them out of His hand".. I think we can lose our joy, etc, perhaps that's what you meant by "divine life".. but not our salvation/eternal life to come, etc (tho some say if we cease to believe we can, but this of course doesn't fit with UR. Btw, I think and agree all groups have error, including UR, but not about UR! :smile: and yes these hold us all back)

I think many in the world cannot believe in God because of the sufferings of and in the world, but, surely, this could not be avoided unless God made us like robots or an ant farm.. When He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came to be, for sooner or later, with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices. Yet (imo) God is Life and also Perfection, perhaps you can see the 'problem', once one chooses anything which differs with God, we/they become imPerfect, the opposite of Life, therefor God built the rescue into all things "from the beginning"/"foundation". God being Life lives thru all sufferings which ever occur. All of them! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because (surely?) He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His very own family and an un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because the full knowing of good from evil which is also life from death (and true from untrue) will be deeply engraved upon every heart and mind, because we learn through experience best, and plus there will be that 'day' which must be a veRy long one, of the review and examination (judgment) of all things, all human history, etc. This life as we presently know it is an unavoidable lesson and journey. Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be thinking ability / rational creatures.

The "Seal of God" also called God's pledge.. (thumbprint?) which proves we are His, and will inherit aLL which has been promised, is our heart crying "Abba Father!" or, that is "Father, my Father!" If we believe in His salvation sent forth from Him (Jesus) then we (surely?) have this Seal of the Spirit, and now, the baptism of that Spirit is what is crucial to our walk, and our faith enduring and being strong, not easily washed away by forces of the world, or blown about with every wind of doctrine (from men).. Yes I think all believers every where should pray for this Baptism. And then also I think we should live very much in His Word, without which, we are far too easily prey to wrong ideas/doctrines, sorrow, etc.

"The fruit of the Spirit" of abiding in Jesus and staying close to God and the Word "is love, joy, peace, patience,  gentleness, and temperence, upon such there is no law".

Drawing close to God is what transforms us, and through Jesus we can boldly draw close to the throne of grace to receive all the help we need! Remember, the Sermon on the Mount(ain) reveals "the law" isn't good enough for pleasing God.. Jesus is our Sabbath Rest (Hebrews ch 4?) - no work upon sabbath, i.e. in our sabbath rest of resting in Jesus and the righteousness which comes by faith. "Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you"/us.

Faith (for every good thing) comes by hearing (reading) the Word of God.. "Be renewed in our mind by the renewing of the Word" - a virtual flood.. Then our thoughts, and also our words are transformed, for they proceed out of the heart (and words, many say, have creative force, along with our thoughts/expectations). The washing of  the Word, submersion into, is what all of us believers most need and continue to need, along with this instruction "be being filled with the Spirit" always. :smile:

And there is no sign, except the cry of the heart "Father, my Father!" All else as requirement, would be works.

[Lazarus Short]

...how much more we, if Jesus said He can do nothing of Himself!!! Yep, the Holy Ghost Baptism, being FiLLeD with God's Spirit and Presence is the total answer! Acts 2 (fulfilling that Jesus is our "sabbath rest" wherein God emphasized "no working upon the Sabbath". No works as salvation! Even the sermon on the mount revealed how far short "the law" is for pleasing God. This is His commandment, to believe on the One He sent forth. :smile: And Jesus said "my yoke is easy, my burden light"!

Thank you, Marie!  That really connects the dots for me. :dsunny:

[marie glen]

 :thanks: :hiya:

[dajomaco]

Truth recieved. :dsunny:

[Colleen]

Thanks again reFormer. I seem to be saying that a lot lately. Or at least thinking it.

[lomarah]

Amen reF. Thank you for that. I miss you and hope you're doing well.  :HeartThrob:

[Lloyd]

Marie said: ... Faith (for every good thing) comes by hearing (reading) the Word of God.

Faith means faithfulness. The word of God is direct inspiration from God. Everyone has access to it at all times just by asking God for it. The word of God came to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph et al long before the Bible was written.

And there is no sign, except the cry of the heart "Father, my Father!" All else as requirement, would be works.

Sounds like you all still berate all "works", contrary to the word of God. Paul is the only one who spoke against "works", and he also spoke FOR good works (even more), as I showed in another thread. You all seem to be determined to keep leading others astray just as you were led astray by conventional ET religions.

Another thing is that you're all preaching mainly to the choir. I don't like using conventional Christian terminology when discussing God's word with others, because most people, even Christians, seem to find it largely meaningless, cultish, holier than thou etc. I don't mind using the terminology with those who speak the lingo, but I don't think most of the lingo is clear anyway and I favor using words that are fairly clear.

[reFORMer]

Ref said, "You need to be overwhelmed by His tangible presence."
Absolutely right.
However, IMO, tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit
nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.

Let's see...what can say that will degrade God's gifts.  How can I make irrelevant the good things God has to give me?  How can I keep God from flowing, except in the ways I approve?

A few years ago I went to a series of meetings where a man of God was ministering.  I was experiencing things inward and heavenly as well as seeing things affecting people's actions, things that were the working of the Holy Spirit.  Within my self I said, "Anything but the jerks.  I just don't want to jerk like that."  Guess what one of the things was that was given to me and that remains with me still?  It wasn't until afterward, when the man had gone on, that I realized how much spiritual gifts were flowing.  I had missed much because I looked down on the simplicity of his word.

[rosered]

Thanks for that  :cloud9:
  Reminds me of how we ask the Lord for His holy Spirit and when he does move  in us , its according to our faith  on just  what we recieve   
I love the father whom was asking  Jesus to heal his son and said help my unbelief ! That boy needed to be healed and  his daddy was hindering , till He asked Jesus , by  a  humble request  , to basically heal him too !     
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

[ded2daworld]

Ref said.
"Let's see...what can say that will degrade God's gifts.  How can I make irrelevant the good things God has to give me?  How can I keep God from flowing, except in the ways I approve?"
Since he quoted me, I assume that statement was meant for me.
I wasn't doing any of those things. Show me where it says speaking in tongues is a sign of how spiritual a person is, the Bible itself says not all are given the gift of tongues and that tongues are the least of the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows. Nowhere does it say one will speak in tongues when one is overwhelmed by the spirit.
I said what I did because some people feel that they have to speak in tongues to "prove" they have the spirit and/or saved. This is not true.
Some people feel that they are somehow inferior spiritually if they haven't spoken in tongues. This is also not true.
Don't take your personal experience and put it out there as a "requirement" for someone to attain your spirituality or to get as close to God as you.

It seems to me your the one trying to keep God from flowing except in the ways that YOU approve. Saying tongues is not a requirement (as I did) for the spirit in NO WAY says one should not seek the Holy Spirit in greater abundance and working in your life.

[dajomaco]

Ded are you saying, what is important is the fruit of the Spirit?

Don't forget nuts and fruit go together

[ded2daworld]

I don't recall ever reading about the nuts of the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is what comes out of a person that has the Holy spirit in them.
(GAL)"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control." 

[rosered]

    :thumbsup:     
Jesus spoke of making the tree good and its fruit good  :gimmefive:  or make it corrupt , its known by its fruit [produce ]    the nut garden , well  its all edible , right ?

Sgs 6:11   I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, [and] to see whether the vine flourished, [and] the pomegranates budded.

[ded2daworld]

and when Jesus saw the fig tree bore no (figs)fruit, he cursed it and said, "Never bear fruit again"

[reFORMer]

Ref said. (and herein quotes ded to illustrate)

"Let's see...what can I say that will degrade God's gifts.
Say:...tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit
nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.

How can I make irrelevant the good things God has to give me?
Say: ...tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.

How can I keep God from flowing, except in the ways I approve?" Say:...tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.

Since he quoted me, I assume that statement was meant for me.
I wasn't doing any of those things.

Show me where it says speaking in tongues is a sign of how spiritual a person is, the Bible itself says not all are given the gift of tongues and that tongues are the least of the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows.

That Paul considered it certainly sign-ified sign-nificantly is indicated when he stated, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all..." (1 Co 15¹⁸) Scripture does say, "Do all speak with tongues?" (12³⁰)  He had just spoken similarly, "Are all prophets?" (v29)  Yet God says, "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy..." (14⁵ RSV)  This "wish" for all to speak in tongues and prophesy, is more accurately God's determined will that he loves to do.

Look how strong this is evidenced by the facts about thelo SG2309.  It is rendered (in the KJV): will/would 159, will/would have 16, desire 13, desirous 3, list 3, to will 2, misc 4
Thayer's Lexicon defines it as:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
     a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
     b) to desire, to wish
     c) to love
          2) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
    d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Nowhere, as far as I know, does the Bible say tongues are the least of the gifts.

Nowhere does it say one will speak in tongues when one is overwhelmed by the spirit.

If you look at a beverage glass you will probably find a rim on it, something like what piping is to sewing.  It is also is called the "lip" of the glass.  When the glass is filled full to overflowing it pours out over the lip.

The tongue is called the bodies most unruly member by James.  When that is given over to being operated by the Holy Spirit, then, as suggested by the example (in James) of the rudder, the whole body comes under the Spirit's dominion.

In the book of Acts, when believers were filled with the Holy Spirit it repeatedly says they spoke in tongues and prophesied, or that bystanders saw some effect that would naturally be explained by tongues and prophecy.

I said what I did because some people feel that they have to speak in tongues to "prove" they have the spirit and/or saved. This is not true.

Perhaps technically true, but why be so quick to put a negative aspect against God's precious gift?  It does have a "prove the spirit" kind of operation though, if you exercise it.

Some people feel that they are somehow inferior spiritually if they haven't spoken in tongues. This is also not true.

I don't want to stop short of getting everything God gives.  How fully in His image can you become?  Hebrews 4¹  seems to warn us of it:  "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

Don't take your personal experience and put it out there as a "requirement" for someone to attain your spirituality or to get as close to God as you.

I hope what I have of God is actually out there enough for others to feel enough desire for the real thing to cry out, requiring it of the Lord Who gives liberally and without partiality.

It seems to me your the one trying to keep God from flowing except in the ways that YOU approve. Saying tongues is not a requirement (as I did) for the spirit in NO WAY says one should not seek the Holy Spirit in greater abundance and working in your life.

Tongues are a way God flows.  It is very significant to being made in His image.  "The Word" He has granted to have life in Himself, Jesus says.  It is invaluable in private prayer.  We should desire, seek after, welcome and praise those things He has wrought.