Weekly Spiritual Discipline

[marie glen]

Would anyone like to share experience and thoughts on community and collaboration?

Hi, I likely actually would, but I don't like messenger or email, but prefer forums..

I love the give and take of discussion and exchange of ideas, even though it seems as though few actually hear what I try to say. I've been a sort of part time hermit for much of my faith life and I guess I'm pretty convinced of the things I've learned and have felt the Spirit of God has taught me, but seldom can find people who agree with me, or even bother to try to hear what I'm saying. I guess that's just part of the human experience, and whatever each one of us is 'right' about, I think we will be teaching it in the millenium to come, and also during what I think of as the day of 'judgment' age. I think folks are pretty set in their ways, but I think there is untruth like everywhere and it is untruth which waters down the joyous news and robs it of it POWER. If I could find folks who wanted to search all things (doctrines, ideas) thoroughly, in light of the Word only, and not human speculation, I would be ever so very happy. It's better here than most, but yet to me, UR is not the only (Bible) Truth that needs magnification, unveiling and expounding upon, and any and all, misperception/untruth clouds the message of UR, and also salvation ... I've even turned away from Tentmaker forum before, feeling disappointed in not finding a lot of common ground and collaboration.. but not anymore! I feel a new sense of determination! I think there are many things misunderstood about Truth and God's Plan working out/unfolding, and this results in what I think of trying to metaphor things away. Instead of straightforward, everything is a symbol, this is human speculation, whereas what is really most needed in all the Lord's 'church' and in our message, including UR, is the Word itself.

[VineBranch]

God Bless you, Lloyd.  I have no idea what all the silly talk about lip balm is above your post but I sense you are a seeker and trying to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord, and I pray you find the fellowship that you are looking for here.

I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life.  Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?  Or something else?

silly talk about lip balm.  Good golly miss Molly, did you think it was silly?

[ded2daworld]

 :sigh: When someone doesn't understand our silly talk we have failed at humor :sigh:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[VineBranch]

Would anyone like to share experience and thoughts on community and collaboration?

You bet.  Now that you have put it in a different light for me, I would love to come with you, Lloyd.

I do have a few reservations though, so if I may, I'ld like to simply put them out there, and maybe you could take some of my hesitation away.

You mentioned in your post that:  "For most of my life I've felt that it's God's will for me to have companions with whom to collaborate, but especially companions nearby with whom to interact directly. I've sought such companions fairly often, but never found any who seemed right for me after a few months or so of knowing them."  The problem I have with this (my problem, not yours), is that I don't so much look for companions, as I make friends.  I find that in fora such as these, you can't help but make friends with some folk (you probably make enemies as well, but I don't so much look for them as they just sort of show up).  Once they are friends, I can't just walk away from them because they don't seem 'right' somehow.  They're friends now, and what ever they are, right or wrong, I hang out with them.  If we start to disagree, we are still friends, and so we find a way to hang out and accept each other for who we are ... warts and all.

If you and I become companions, and then we become friends (which in my life is a given), and we disagree about some things, if I become discipline road kill because of that, it would really hurt my feelings.  So, before we start, is there a possibility of that happening?

You said:  "I guess it would help if I analyzed my past experiences to try to determine what have been my main reasons for ceasing collaboration with people I've met. But I think the main reason is that others have never seemed cooperative or sensible enough."  What if I disagree and don't wish to cooperate with something with which I disagree:  would I then have become less sensible?  Would I be abandoned?

You mentioned that you have changed a lot over the years, are your friends (or companions) allowed the same privilege?

The last thing involves something that I have seen at Tentmaker.  Ded2daworld mentioned that if we all agree we don't learn anything.  I'ld like to share the following with you.

When I got here, I thought the whole shooting match revolved around free-will.  I argued it for decades.  It was the sine qua non of Christianity for me.  I got into a knock down drag out free for all with Eaglesway.  We came at it from two totally different points of view.  I thought about our encounters.  I tried to see things from a different perspective, and then I tried to see it from the exact opposite perspective of the one I personally held.  I changed.  My thinking changed.  I mulled it over in the light of my new companion, UR.  I don't hold that view anymore.  I am still mulling it over:  still thinking about it in different contexts.  The point is, because Eagle and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together.  I learned, and it didn't frighten me to do so.

A while ago ReHotMagna and I got into it about the word Gospel.  English is my first love, and as such I will defend my mistress until the death (okay, but you gotta allow a fellow a little hyperbole lol).  But, he had a point.  (Don't get me wrong I think I did too, but so did he).  As a result, I changed, I see the validity of his point.  I tried to merge the two.  I see that there is room for both.  The point is, because RHM and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together.  I learned, and it didn't frighten me to do so.

So, I need to ask you a couple of questions Lloyd.  If we disagree, will you abandon me by the side of the road?  Or, is there a place in Lloyd's new righteous discipline to say, because we disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently and we moved on together?

[ded2daworld]

Good post VB. :thumbsup:

[Lloyd]

Ded said: Hears a tip, if someone agrees with you, you don't learn anything. Every relationship takes work, give and take, sharing, communication all mixed together with love. This is how we grow. I commend you for wanting to fol[]low the biblical admonition to "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together" Since there are very few UR congr[e]gations, this forum is our next best thing.

That's something I've been learning here lately, thankfully. I mean that disagreement is okay. I learned in childhood to fear disagreeable people (like Dad, because of abuse). I still tend to get a sinking feeling when people disagree with me strongly, especially if it seems irrational or angry. But I think I'm letting go of the deception behind my fear, so I'm escaping from that habitual reaction.

Marie said: ... it seems as though few actually hear what I try to say. ... I feel a new sense of determination! I think there are many things misunderstood about Truth and God's Plan working out/unfolding, and this results in what I think of [as?] trying to metaphor things away. Instead of straightforward, everything is a symbol, this is human speculation, whereas what is really most needed in all the Lord's 'church' and in our message, including UR, is the Word itself.

Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of the Bible seems to be metaphor, so it's often hard to determine what the original meaning was for many statements. That's where messianic Jews seem to help quite a bit, i.e. those who are fairly familiar with the meanings of the metaphors. Like Jesus came to fulfill, not destroy, the law is said to mean he came to teach it correctly instead of incorrectly, i.e. incorrectly like the Pharisees et al.

VB said: If you and I become companions, and then we become friends (which in my life is a given), and we disagree about some things, if I become discipline road kill because of that, it would really hurt my feelings.  So, before we start, is there a possibility of that happening? ... You mentioned that you have changed a lot over the years, are your friends (or companions) allowed the same privilege? ... because Eagle and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together.  I learned, and it didn't frighten me to do so. ... because RHM and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together.

By becoming discipline roadkill, do you mean getting killed by my discipline, or someone else's? I've heard that the worst killers are comedians. They try to kill every audience, but only succeed about half the time. I hope the discipline I practice will be righteous and nonfatal to self and others. But I can't predict if I'll succeed. I would not have predicted 20 years ago that I would find a brand of Christianity that I'd accept, or that I'd find meaning in terms like salvation. I hope not to become a prodigal son again, but, if I do, I'll then look forward to returning to the Father. Thanks for potential collaboration, friendship, etc. Quakers took the name, Society of Friends, meaning friends of God and mankind, derived from Biblical passages somewhere or other.

[Lloyd]

I'm back already. I wrote the following this morning before coming down to use the internet.

Matthew 25 seems important for me. Here are the verses there that most apply to my situation. I'm trying to phrase them in more understandable English. Words changed are referenced in parentheses. I'll share the whole passage first, then I'll focus on the most pertinent verses and add my comments there.

Matthew 25:1-13; & 14-46
[1-13] [Seeking the kingdom of heaven is compared to ten bridesmaids(1)... ]
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is compared to(2) a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and gave(3) to them his talents of silver(4).
[24] Then [on his return] he who had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew that you are a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not dispersed(5):
[25] And I was afraid [of losing the talent?], and went and hid your talent in the earth: lo, there you have what is yours.
[26] His lord answered and said unto him, you foolish(6) and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not dispersed(7):
[27] you ought therefore to have given(8) my money to the exchangers, and then on my return(9) I should have received my own with interest(10).
[28] [He then said to another servant:] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
[29] For to every one that holds up(11) shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that holds not up(12) shall be taken away even that which he has.
[30] And cast the useless(13) servant into outer darkness: there shall be sorrow and worry(14).
[31] When the Son of man shall enter in his honor(15), and all the righteous ministers(16) with him, then shall he sit on the seat(17) of his honor(15):
[32] And before him shall be gathered all people(18): and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his receiving side(19), but the goats on the unreceiving side(20).
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his receiving side(19), Come, you prosperous by(21) my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you since the beginning of the beautiful order(22):
[41] Then shall he say also to them on the unreceiving side(20), Depart from me, you unprosperous(23), into righteous lightning [rapid purification?](24), prepared for the unfaithful(25) and his messengers(26): ...
[45] Then shall he answer [to the unfaithful], saying, Truly(27) I say to you, Inasmuch as you worked(28) not for one of the least of these [in need], you worked(28) not for me.
[46] And these [unfaithful] shall go away into Godly correction(29): but the righteous into Godly life(30).
... (1) {virgins} (2) {as} (3) {delivered} (4) {goods}
... (5) {strawed} (6) {wicked} (7) {strawed} (8) {put} (9) {coming}
... (10) {usury} (11) {has} (12) {has not} (13) {unprofitable} (14) {weeping and gnashing of teeth}
... (15) {come in his glory} (16) {holy angels} (17) {throne} (18) {nations}
... (19) {right hand} (20) {left hand} (21) {blessed of} (22) {from the foundation of the world}
... (23) {cursed} (24) {everlasting fire} (25) {devil} (26) {angels}
... (27) {Verily} (28) {did it} (29) {everlasting punishment} (30) {eternal}

Here is more specifically what applies to me.
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is compared to [making profit on the king's investments]

I feel like the servant who was given a share of the king's investments, but buried them, for fear of failure or loss.
[25] And I was afraid [of losing the talent?], and went and hid your talent in the earth: lo, there you have what is yours.
[27] [The king answered:] You ought therefore to have given(8) my money to the exchangers, and then on my return(9) I should have received my own with interest(10).

I feel that I do not help the needy effectively; that includes the needy among family, friends, acquaintances and strangers.
[45] Then shall he answer [to the unfaithful], saying, Truly(27) I say to you, Inasmuch as you worked(28) not for one of the least of these [in need], you worked(28) not for me.

As I hinted before, I've tried to "make profit on the king's investments" by helping the needy by myself, but there seems to be very little to show for all of my independent efforts. I don't see that I've actually helped anyone significantly. And that seems to tell me that I need companions/community with whom to collaborate (for making profit for the king).

I seem to fear wasting my time on self-inspired naive ideas. I don't really have fear of "judgment" or of suffering as a result of my failures. I just have a standard for myself, which I think is a righteous, Godly, biblical standard and I sense the largely needless suffering of the world's needy and want to do my share to be of help.

[VineBranch]

By becoming discipline roadkill, do you mean getting killed by my discipline, or someone else's?

Neither Lloyd.

What I meant was that, in your post you said that you usually loose your companions after a few months because they weren't who you thought they were.  Then you just go on by yourself.  So, after a few months of talking, sharing, laughing, getting to know each other and bonding with each other, you just leave because they aren't suitable anymore.  What happens to them?  What happens to the months of bounding, and sharing?  How do they feel about simply being left by the side of the road by themselves because they weren't spiritual enough?

One of the greatest things I have learned from UR thus far is this:  it doesn't matter if I get it right the first time.  It doesn't matter if I get it wrong.  God walks with me (and my companions, and my friends) until and beyond the end.  Knowing no one will be lost sometimes makes me get misty eyed.  God planned none would be lost, irrespective of how long it takes us to figure it out.

One of the things I have learned from this forum is that the people I meet here, and bond with, and share with, are some of the people with whom I will be spending eternity (or whatever word we wish to use).

Frankly, when I first got here I thought some of the folk here were nothing more than great pains in the patoot.  This was at least partially so because I didn't think they were suitable as companions.  Between you and me, some of them were just plain weird.  But I got to know them.  Now that I have come to know them and see them as Christian brothers and sisters, I realize that some of them are just plain weird lol.  But they are my community of weirdies.  I dare say, some of the people who have read and responded to my posts may think:  'this guy is just plain weird'  (they would be wrong lol). None of us seems to have it all figured out.  None of us seems to know it all.  So, we need to make a choice.  Do we let them stand by the side of the road, wondering what they did?  Or do we link arms, and face God's future together?  Personally, I vote for the latter.

God doesn't give up on me and leave me stranded because I didn't get it the first time (or the first hundred times).  God doesn't leave me as road kill because I became unsuitable.  Would Lloyd?

[reFORMer]

Thank you, Molly.

Molly added:
I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life.  Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?  Or something else?

The discipline that I said I wanted to practice when I started this thread is discussing emotions and plans with someone each week. The purpose of discussing emotions is to find and correct errors in my thinking and attitude. It's about the same as what you said. The advantage of focusing on emotions is that unpleasant feelings seem to be communication from God usually warning us of something that's doing us harm. Physical feelings indicate harm being done to the body, and emotional feelings indicate harm being done to the mind by erroneous thinking etc. I take sin to mean error. I guess it's possible that unpleasant emotions are sometimes not due to our own errors, but sensing someone else's pain etc, or maybe remembering something from the past, or whatever. But, generally, I find that I do usually have erroneous thinking when I review my unpleasant emotions. That thinking causes those emotions. So finding the thinking error makes it pretty easy to let go of it, as in the saying of shining light into darkness.

As others warn, it's always possible to get carried away with most any discipline, but that's why it's good to do it with others. And this particular discipline also seems to develop our sensitivity, so that we can soon recognize if we're getting carried away, in case others don't warn us. That is, getting carried away usually leads to unpleasant emotions, like with the prodigal son, I think.

Sheila said: I  wrote this post once, but it disappeared. about the term disciple and discipline having the same 'root' word meaning...and that we are really illegetimate children without the discipline of our Heavenly Father.

I'm sorry. I suppose I must've caused it to disappear, if it appeared in the thread I started and then deleted. I was fairly impulsive and thoughtless with deleting that thread.

The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God was one of the numerous references to discipline in the Bible that I was able to relate to well.

Eaglesway said: It seems all to often that when folks think they are "right" they think it gives them the right to treat others with sarcasm and disrespect.

When we become more sensitive to our own feelings, we can notice that our own sarcasm and disrespect for others feels unpleasant. So does anger. The reason we don't initially notice that is because there are pleasant feelings with those behaviors that get our attention more than the unpleasant ones. We feel we are on the side of right and justice and that feels good.

And thank you for the sound doctrine. You added: "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Mat 11:28-30) I consider the yoke to be the simple loving discipline of the Bible, which grants us "rebirth" and "eternal life" in this life, not just in the next.

The traditional "Christian Disciplines" are:  praying, fasting, and giving, all taught by Jesus.  To this we may add:  reading scripture.

Concerning our emotions many books have been written.  One common place people get stuck is attempting to use the soul (with its functions of thought, will, and emotions) to change the soul.  Additionally, assuming our bodies can be changed soulically is seldom successful.  Jesus asked which of us, by taking thought, could change our height or hair color.  Will, or decision making alone (if we are over-weight, for instance,) seldom works, and poorly, if at all.

Our personality is spirit, soul, and body.  The functions of spirit are evidenced by communion, intuition, and conscience.  We must recognize and deal with the root of our nature, whether we are spiritual, by regeneration, or still soulical, which could mean we're only primarily soulical due to lack of development of the new man.  The Adamic nature, what we are as the result of human parents, must be enslaved to righteousness, due to the weakness of the flesh.  (cf., Rm 6¹⁹)  Born from above by the Spirit of God we are structured and function different than the Old Man.  The New Man's nature, as a source, aligns with God from birth, and is in fact, "The Lord from heaven." (cf., 1 Co 15^45-47) Unlike Adam, The Son works in liberty.

[lomarah]

 :cheerleader: 

[Lloyd]

Collaboration
I'm thankful for potential collaboration here. I want to think out loud now about ideas for how to proceed with that. Without others with whom to share ideas mutually (in the periodic gathering together in God's name), I've not found ways to go forward well with whatever other inspirations I may have had. But I think I have some pretty good half-baked methods for decision making as follows.

The Needy and Crises
Sometimes crises are illusions, or deceptions. I guess that means there's still a crisis, but the crisis is not what it seems. Instead, it's a crisis of deception or illusion, so the need then is to seek and find the true nature of the crisis and deal with the real issue, the deception or illusion. There are many manufactured crises in the world today, I believe. And most of the people respond to the deception, thinking it's true, without suspecting deceit.

Biblical Means of Collaboration
In order to truly help those in need I suppose we need to determine what the primary needs are for most of the people. I suppose the primary need is for spiritual understanding, i.e. for understanding the true nature of salvation, and for collaborating in local, spiritual, loosely-organized groups/congregations. Local groups need to be loosely-organized too in the way that bishops/overseers help organize ecclesias/congregations. Does that seem right? What do others of you think about this?

Share the Universalist Gospel
I think this means that there needs to be people who share the Universalist gospel with people worldwide, which is being done, but it would likely help if a lot more of us would do that. Right? We can do it online as well as doing it partly via traveling like the apostles did. I can be available for either or both of those kinds of work. I'm thinking of maybe doing that locally by myself initially, to start with, but I think I need to find another person to work with, as the apostles did. I'm near St. Louis, but it's possible that I could go elsewhere too, if it seems worthwhile. Do these ideas sound good, or are there better or supplemental ideas to consider?

VB said: God doesn't give up on me and leave me stranded because I didn't get it the first time (or the first hundred times).  God doesn't leave me as road kill because I became unsuitable.  Would Lloyd?

If God continues to expose for me the deceptions behind my fears of being enslaved by others, I think I will not abandon anyone in need. What do you think about the above?

[sheila]

 RE    fear of being enslaved by other's..........

   this come to mind..Eccl 7;26  I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare...

  whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains.

   two women...Babylon and Wisdom/Jerusalem Above..............

  ............now..as one who was trapped and snared by Babylon.......then brought out

to liberty...I certainly relate.  The man who pleases God will escape her[Babylon]

...the FREE WOMAN..is a good contrast..to the other.Wisdom 'brightens a man's face..

   I like being free...if the son set ye free......... ye shall be free indeed.

  wealso have the sword,captivity,famine and pestilence..plagues of Babylon..for sure.


   when your'e born from above..of the free woman...ye have 'the promise"  that promise

Jesus spoke of ..with which we are sealed...a token of the fullness we are to receive.

   the 'helper' will not speak of his own..but of what is Christ's..and lead us into all truth..

  because it is the spirit of truth.      We proclaim liberty to our brothers..and do not enslave

them..to rules and regulations of this world.or that they be 'our' servants


   Jesus said," the time is coming..and is now...when you will no longer worship in Samaria

or Jerusalem...but in spirit and truth"  what is this..worship in spirit and truth?  speak truth

to one another..do not be owing one another anything but to love one another....

   where-ever two or three are gathered in my name..I am there.


  Mt 18;19  where-ever two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for,it will be done.

  can two walk togather without agreeing?


   we do not put under compulsion,like Bablyon who sits on the beast


  now..to the starving..every bitter thing is sweet....Babylon give me a 'crust" of truth..then

took me for a slave.....you received freely..give freely....



  Whatever your heart[love] compels you to give...He wants you to give

freely.

   

[dajomaco]

IMO, Never say never Daj.
Are you proud that you could not be seduced by that statement? :dontknow:
Did you want us to be impressed with your spirituality in that a single statement can't seduce you? :dontknow:
Were you telling the forum that to convince us or yourself? :dontknow:

IMO, Never say never Daj.

Ded I never said never. (I said I could not be)
I did not say I could never be.

Are you proud that you could not be seduced by that statement? 

The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God.[/color]

These people are springs without water, mists driven by a whirlwind. The gloom of darkness has been reserved for them. 18 For by uttering boastful, empty words, they seduce, with fleshly desires and debauchery, people who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption, since people are enslaved to whatever defeats them. 20 For if, having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,[j] and, "a sow, after washing itself, wallows in the mud."

Yes we should like the dog and the hog return to righteous discipline
that worked so well the first time.

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? 2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?[c] 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?[d]


Did you want us to be impressed with your spirituality in that a single statement can't seduce you? 

Ded I would like to impress upon you the need for me to be single minded


Were you telling the forum that to convince us or yourself? 

I was posting for the convenience of the Forum

[Colleen]

Thanks for shedding light reformer.   :dsunny:  You're post really helps.

[VineBranch]

If God continues to expose for me the deceptions behind my fears of being enslaved by others, I think I will not abandon anyone in need. What do you think about the above?

Well, Lloyd, God bless you.  You appear to be very ambitious.

You said:

"Biblical Means of Collaboration
In order to truly help those in need I suppose we need to determine what the primary needs are for most of the people. I suppose the primary need is for spiritual understanding, i.e. for understanding the true nature of salvation, and for collaborating in local, spiritual, loosely-organized groups/congregations. Local groups need to be loosely-organized too in the way that bishops/overseers help organize ecclesias/congregations. Does that seem right? What do others of you think about this?"

I think the primary need of the whole world is Jesus Christ.  I think at some level when the Holy Spirit talks to people, we get that.  I'm not sure if the structure is that important, but it could be, and your organizational chart looks fine.  I would focus on Christ though.  Some people feel closer to the Lord without a structure, others find the structure comforting.  I think I would pray about how God wanted the place to look.  I've seen churches which insist that the bureaucracy must look like the first century church i.e. the book of Acts became a sort of flow chart for organizing churches.

Personally, according to some of my friends, I have a coffee ministry.  I go for coffee with folk and sit and discuss God.  Sometimes we bring Bibles, sometimes not.  We always bring God along though, and I think that is what it is all about.  You are different.  If you think a church structured along certain lines works, then go for it.  God loves everybody, He is in all meetings.

Share the Universalist Gospel.

This may be irrelevant, or even rude, so I'm sorry if it comes across as such.  For me, understanding UR came about because God showed me that His love was greater then anything man could create to undermine it.  The Gospel, is the Universalist Gospel.  I think I would lean toward sharing Christ, everything else follows from that.

[ded2daworld]

Amen VB. The truth is, IMO, extremely few carried a "bible" around for the first 1600 years or so. I've actually had "ekders" question why I didn't bring my bible to church. One pastor said that we weren't "carrying the word of the Lord with us" if we didn't carry a bible everywhere. I think I'd rather carry the word of the Lord in my head than try to flip pages to find out what it says about whatever comes up.Even being a christian, I shy away from obvious bible carriers. Some, but not all, are rediculous in their "bible thumping", using the Bible to "show" other people that they were a "real" Christian. A committed Christian - or is that a christian that eeded to be committed? :2c: :laughing7:

[VineBranch]

Amen Ded.  I've also met Christians who carry a Bible to church and when they get home put in on a table, to be picked again, next Sunday when they are off to church again.  It works for them, and God bless them, but IMO it becomes a prop that way.

I think your remark of carrying the word in your heart says volumes on the whole subject.

When I was younger, I carried Bibles around for the express purpose of giving them away, then I actually started reading it:  what a difference that made.  :laughing7:

[Lloyd]

I know the gospel is the UR gospel, but the KJV and many common versions misinterpret the original Bible to make it seem ET or non-UR. That's why I said the need seems to be to share the UR gospel. But then, there are two kinds of non-UR people, i.e. Christian and non-Christian. If you count messianic Jews, they often don't call themselves Christians, but they believe basically the same as we do, that Jesus is our Savior. Anyway, we can't share with those who are unfamiliar with the Bible the same way we can with those who are, i.e. Christians and relatives of Christians. I heard yesterday that even many Christians these days don't know what the Bible says, so I guess they're more in the "non-Christian" category. Of course, many Catholics have little familiarity with the Bible either, except what they hear in Sunday sermons. And those may not provide references.

I think most of you folks here emphasize "faith" in Jesus as salvation, but I think that's somewhat brainwashing by conventional protestant religions. They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between "works" and "faith", which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory.

I prefer to emphasize following Jesus' example. So far I don't think it's necessary to believe Jesus actually existed in order to be willing to follow his example. I think there's plenty of evidence that he did live on Earth as the Bible says, but I think what the Bible means to emphasize is following his example. As I said earlier, it seems it was necessary for God to provide a sinless human example for people to follow, because God the Father being invisible pure spirit was always harder for people to follow easily.

I think non-Christians or anyone not familiar much with the Bible could understand the gospel messages about following Jesus' example much more readily than they could accept "believing" something. However, as long as we're clear that there is no eternal punishment, just correctional "judgment", I guess what any of us say about "belief" wouldn't greatly annoy them. I'm saying all this from the perspective of someone like myself. I did have familiarity with the Bible, but mostly all I saw in it was cruelty and insanity. And it was the messianic Jewish perspective that first helped me see that that was all misinterpretation.

[dajomaco]

Using Jesus as an example IMO, absurd and at the very best meaningless.

[ded2daworld]

Lloyd said. "I think most of you folks here emphasize "faith" in Jesus as salvation, but I think that's somewhat brainwashing by conventional protestant religions. They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between "works" and "faith", which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory."
WoW! If there isn't much difference how come the just shall live by faith, not the just shall live by works, we are to walk by faith, not walk by works. God counts faith(like with Abraham) as righteousness. God NOWHERE at any time counts works as anything but filthy rags. And how is faithfulness anything like works? They are opposites. One is "saved by grace through faith and NOT of works" The bible is LESS contradictory when you equate one word with its opposite? That is contradictory my friend. Every other religion in the world except christianity teaches some form of works. Christianity says there is nothing you can do of yourself to bring yourself closer to God.

Lloyd said, "So far I don't think it's necessary to believe Jesus actually existed in order to be willing to follow his example." True. Many atheist think Jesus set a good example for us to follow and don't even believe he existed or that he was God in the flesh, but the most famous atheist of our day, Richard Dawkins, has admitted in an interview that there is enough evidence to convince him that Jesus actually existed. If, by "following Christ's example" you mean we are to 1.) Love God and 2.) Love our fellow man you are correct. However, the Bible also makes it clear that without the spirit of the living God living inside of you you will be unable to. Why? Imitation is self.
Love is Others. Imitation is a work the opposite of walking in faith which is spirit.

Lloyd said, "I did have familiarity with the Bible, but mostly all I saw in it was cruelty and insanity." I'm sorry for you Lloyd. It is no wonder that you reject the Bible and prefer to work out your own salvation through discipline. There are plenty of good interpretations out there and I'm curious, what did you see "mostly" as cruelty and insanity?? It's a big collection of books (the Bible) and to say out of the thousands and thousands of verses that it is mostly cruelty and insanity sounds like you were pointed to a few selected verses taken out of context from a poor translation by non-believers that are looking for an excuse to 1.) not believe 2.) Not read the Bible or 3.) Both.

Daj is right about using Jesus as an example. Unless you can walk through a hospital and heal everyone, are prepared to never even think of another person in a sexual way, and perform other miracles, you CAN'T imitate Christ. You must have Jesus living in you for your mind, body and spirit to become conformed to his image. We can't do this on our own or even with other people's help. God alone can do it for us.

[marie glen]

The world judges and dismisses God by listening to the voices which say God is cruel and has acted cruelly. For a literalist like me, I believe all the accounts of the Old Testament.

I believe it is true that before the flood, and which prompted God to act, "the thought of every person" except Noah, who walked with God, and his family "was only always evil". Would it be kindness to allow such to go on and on?

I believe the nations of Canaan, the Amorites, the Hittites, etc, really were greatly caught up into human sacrifice, to the point of laying live babies into burning fire in the hands of statues of Molech, or Baal. Would it be kindness to ignore such things and let them go on and on? These rites they called worship, were sexual in nature. Because of that they were extremely popular. Indeed traces of such have been found in all lands.

Then there's how Moses was told "don't let the children of Israel approach the mountain lest I break forth and consume them" - which doesn't mean, I hate them and might not be able to control myself! But means His essence is as a purifying fire, and He didn't want them to draw near and be hurt.

:smile:

[Lloyd]

Sorry, this is a bit long, but I'm trying to answer all of the main recent points. Marie, we're all free to view the Bible however each of us feels is best, you know.

sheila said: RE fear of being enslaved by others: ... We proclaim liberty to our brothers - and do not enslave them to rules and regulations of this world, or that they be 'our' servants ...
- Jesus said," the time is coming - and is now - when you will no longer worship in Samaria  or Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth".  what is this worship in spirit and truth? speak truth to one another. do not be owing one another anything but to love one another. where-ever two or three are gathered in my name I am there.
- Mt 18;19  where-ever two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done. can two walk togather without agreeing? ... you received freely, give freely.
- Whatever your heart [love] compels you to give He wants you to give freely.

>Si. We need community then.

dajomaco said: (I said I could not be) ... seduced by that statement: ... The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God.
- 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,[j] and, "a sow, after washing itself, wallows in the mud."
- Yes we should like the dog and the hog return to righteous discipline
that worked so well the first time.

>Righteous discipline is not spiritually unclean. Lack of righteous discipline is unclean; as it's not following the example and teachings of God.

- I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? 2

>I think the question is not how righteousness comes, but how salvation comes. It comes by faith in Jesus' teachings and example and faith means faithfulness, as I discussed regarding Matthew 25, for example.

I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? [c] 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?[d]

>I had faith in Jesus' message and his example. The Bible is called the Law and the Word and Jesus is called the Word made flesh which dwelt among us. So Jesus is the Law. His example of love for all is the true Law. I learned much of this from Messianic Jewish websites. The flesh means instinctive urges, selfishness etc. Does it not?

Lloyd said: If God continues to expose for me the deceptions behind my fears of being enslaved by others, I think I will not abandon anyone in need. What do you think about the above? ... I suppose the primary need is for spiritual understanding ... and for collaborating in local, spiritual, loosely-organized groups/congregations.

VineBranch said: I think the primary need of the whole world is Jesus Christ.  I think at some level when the Holy Spirit talks to people, we get that.  I'm not sure if the structure is that important, but it could be, and your organizational chart looks fine. I would focus on Christ though. Some people feel closer to the Lord without a structure, others find the structure comforting.  I think I would pray about how God wanted the place to look. I've seen churches which insist that the bureaucracy must look like the first century church i.e. the book of Acts

>The Bible seems to be the best example for us to follow, because Christianity was greatly corrupted when Constantine took it over, so I don't think conventional Christianity has very good examples to follow. They followed majority rule, whereas the Bible advises unanimous rule. Before Constantine I think Christianity was pretty faithful to Jesus' and the Apostles' teachings and examples. So the early Christian writers may also have good clues for us. I read that they were universalists.

I have a coffee ministry.  I go for coffee with folk and sit and discuss God. ... You are different.  If you think a church structured along certain lines works, then go for it.
... I think I would lean toward sharing Christ, everything else follows from that. (I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5)

>To me, sharing Christ means sharing about his and the Apostles' teachings and examples.

ded2daworld: ... I think I'd rather carry the word of the Lord in my head

VineBranch: I think your remark of carrying the word in your heart says volumes on the whole subject.

>Hebrews 8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
>That's what I'd call attaining spiritual discipline.

dajomaco said: Using Jesus as an example IMO, absurd and at the very best meaningless.

>Not according to the Bible: John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
>1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

ded2daworld: ... God NOWHERE at any time counts works as anything but filthy rags.

>You're brainwashed into only reading the Bible from certain organized religion perspectives. Faith without works is dead. And that also means faithfulness without works is dead.

ded2daworld: ... If, by "following Christ's example" you mean we are to 1.) Love God and 2.) Love our fellow man you are correct. However, the Bible also makes it clear that without the spirit of the living God living inside of you you will be unable to. Why? Imitation is self. Love is Others. Imitation is a work the opposite of walking in faith which is spirit.

>I don't know if it's all that clear to non-Crhistians that the Bible says that about the spirit of God, but it's obvious that the Bible speaks with much symbolism and "spirit of God" seems to mean the image or likeness of God. Strong's dictionary says the Biblical word for spirit is pneuma, which may mean spirit, or mental disposition, or mind etc. So that seems consistent with what I said about following Jesus' example. In order to truly follow his example, we have to have his mind or menatl disposition. As for imitation or imitate, I don't find those words in the Bible. But the Bible clearly says to follow Jesus' example, as I quoted above. And there are many other passages that state it more symbolically.

- I'm sorry for you Lloyd. It is no wonder that you reject the Bible and prefer to work out your own salvation through discipline.

>You're bearing false witness against me. I only reject misinterpretations of the Bible. I'm not following unrighteous discipline or working out false salvation. I'm trying to follow the teachings and examples of Jesus and the Apostles as they advised.

- There are plenty of good interpretations out there and I'm curious, what did you see "mostly" as cruelty and insanity?? It's a big collection of books (the Bible) and to say out of the thousands and thousands of verses that it is mostly cruelty and insanity sounds like you were pointed to a few selected verses taken out of context from a poor translation by non-believers that are looking for an excuse to 1.) not believe 2.) Not read the Bible or 3.) Both.

>No, it was conventional Christians who interpreted the Bible insanely as predestining most people to eternal torture and claiming that the Old Testament described God correctly, when in reality Jesus said he came to teach it correctly, unlike what the Pharisees and others had done.

- Daj is right about using Jesus as an example. Unless you can walk through a hospital and heal everyone, are prepared to never even think of another person in a sexual way, and perform other miracles, you CAN'T imitate Christ. You must have Jesus living in you for your mind, body and spirit to become conformed to his image. We can't do this on our own or even with other people's help. God alone can do it for us.

>You're quibbling over words that mean the same thing, as if they don't. And if God wants anyone to heal people the way Jesus did, I have faith that it will happen, just as it did with the apostles and I know of at least one person in modern times who did it as well.
>To have Jesus living within us means to have in our minds and hearts his teachings, his example and his love for all. He is our standard that we seek to emulate. Athletes have in their minds examples of feats by others that they seek to attain. Likewise, Jesus is our standard. And God the Father is the standard for Jesus the Son.

[VineBranch]

I'm afraid I have become a bit confused by your latest post Lloyd (which now I see is your second to lastest post).  If I may, I would like to ask some questions about what it contains.

You said:  "I heard yesterday that even many Christians these days don't know what the Bible says, so I guess they're more in the "non-Christian" category." Did you mean to infer that one can only be a Christian if one knows what it says in the Bible?

You said:  "They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between 'works' and 'faith', which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory." Did you mean to say that 'by works I am saved, and 'by faith I am saved' is saying the same thing?

Just a note to clarify my position
Faith, in the Greek comes from the word pistis.  This word means, credence or moral conviction.
Works, in the Greek comes from the word ergon.  This word means: deed, doing, or labour.
In English they share a base definition, but they are miles apart in connotation.

You also said: "I think there's plenty of evidence that he did live on Earth as the Bible says, but I think what the Bible means to emphasize is following his example."  I tried to work this into John 3:16.  This is what I came up with ... is this what you meant to say:  'For God so loved the world, that He may or may not have given his only son, that whomsoever follows the example of this perhaps randomly chosen being, the existence of whom can probably be confirmed, will have everlasting life, depending on how well they follow that example ... maybe'?

[redhotmagma]

from Strongs pneuma 4151:

from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by
analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by
implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or
(superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the
Holy Spirit:-ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

not that I always agree with Strongs, but Lloyd has some footing at least

The only mind I see that has to do with spirit is the mind of Christ.  Psuche, the word translated as soul is the human mind IMO.  There is often a confusion as to spirit and soul, and I think Dr. strong carries that confusion.

[marie glen]

There is often a confusion as to spirit and soul, and I think Dr. strong carries that confusion.

Yep! and look at "hades" which Strong's translates as the place or realm of the dead.. like Greek and pagan myth.. When Sheol was clearly the grave where there is no thought nor doing.. "The realm of the dead" - still, the grave. :smile: As is "the lower part of the earth where Christ descended" (not a burning pit of horrific torture and sentence/punishment even b4 'trial'... How pleasant for those who when tried, find their debt has been paid!