Weekly Spiritual Discipline

[VineBranch]

BTW:  I think this may be appropriate.  I haven't read anything by Zender in a long time.  But there it was staring me in the face, his book talking about this very subject.  While I don't see eye to eye with Zender on some issues I think he nailed this one.

Zender stated,

Are you walking by perception?  No wonder you are miserable.

Think, walk, see, set.

Think I'm freed from sin.
Walk as if I'm alive among the dead.
See yourself as God sees you.
Set your mind on what Christ has done, not on what you are doing.

I see no other way to live today.  I must live by faith, because if I look at me...I will become convinced that I'm not justified, accepted, loved or cherished.  I must believe that I am these things independent of what I do.  My flesh mocks me, humiliates me and tells me that my revelations are wishful thinking.  "Look Shawn...look at what you just said, look at what you just did!"  If the flesh forces me to look at me, then discipline myself with some more white knuckle will power...I again become a slave to sin.  Sin wins...it controls...it makes me miserable and I begin to pull away from God.

This is just my experience...not saying it has to be for anyone else.  But, I MUST live a Life of gratitude, thankful for my salvation and justification that I see through eyes of faith.  Loving God is where the freedom lies.

I think you are right on there Shawn.  I've found that trying to control yourself to not sin, or control yourself to avoid sin, is still being controlled by sin.  I know people who say: 'I do the opposite of what people tell me to do, just so as not to be controlled by them.'  They are still controlled by the other folk, just in a different way.

[shawn]

That's absolutely right VB.

[ded2daworld]

Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:

While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"

[VineBranch]

Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:

While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"

LOL.  How long do you think it would take before someone actually took the first step?

[shawn]

Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:

While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"

LOL.  How long do you think it would take before someone actually took the first step?

Ehh, I'll take the first step later.   :rolllol:

[VineBranch]

Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:

While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"

LOL.  How long do you think it would take before someone actually took the first step?

Ehh, I'll take the first step later.   :rolllol:

I'ld take the first step but I need to wash my hair.  You understand..

[ded2daworld]

The main trouble would be getting ANYONE (including the leader) to show up for a meeting. If anyone came, it sure wouldn't be on time!

"OK, we got a late start, but in a little while we'll be passing out some literature and soon we'll get the meeting going. We need someone to talk tonight cuz the person that volunteered last week for this week didn't show. If you were here last week you remember we just sat around waiting for someone else to speak. On each of your chairs, I have put a metal circle you can pin to your clothing. It says , "TUIT"
This is the first step here at procrastinators anonymous. None of you can ever again say that you will do something, "When you get a round TUIT" You have gotten your round TUIT and must stop using that excuse to be true to yourself. :laughing7:

[VineBranch]

The main trouble would be getting ANYONE (including the leader) to show up for a meeting. If anyone came, it sure wouldn't be on time!

"OK, we got a late start, but in a little while we'll be passing out some literature and soon we'll get the meeting going. We need someone to talk tonight cuz the person that volunteered last week for this week didn't show. If you were here last week you remember we just sat around waiting for someone else to speak. On each of your chairs, I have put a metal circle you can pin to your clothing. It says , "TUIT"
This is the first step here at procrastinators anonymous. None of you can ever again say that you will do something, "When you get a round TUIT" You have gotten your round TUIT and must stop using that excuse to be true to yourself. :laughing7:

I'ld wear my tuit but it clashes with my ensemble.  So, maybe tomorrow I'll wear it.

[redhotmagma]

lipbalm is one of the most addicting things there is.  It removes the oils from your lips naturally so you need to put it on regularly.  I know this because we had a couple over for dinner, and he was sneaking putting on his chapstick.  My wife caught him and said did you just sneak your chapstick.  He then told me about the addictiveness of it.  It was all funny.  And I'm sure the effects of lipbalm overuse are probably not close to alcohol or drugs, but everyones got their own hangups.  He was embarrassed by it, or self conscious enough to try and hide it.

[ded2daworld]

It sounds almost like OCD.
As a "hooked" lip balmer would say, "Ah... lip balm. The cause of, and the cure for, all our troubles" :laughing7:

[Lazarus Short]

Yikes - I have three different tubes of lip balm on my bedside stand, so maybe I should call it Gilead.

[ded2daworld]

C'mon Laz - you know there is no balm in Gilead. :laughing7:

[Lloyd]

Yesterday I started a new thread for opposition to discipline and I answered VB's last complaints there, but then I found that Ded had locked this thread. He had said he thought I wanted it locked, which I had not, so I figured I should delete the new thread, since the new thread seemed to be the reason for him thinking I wanted this one locked. And I left a message saying I'd like this thread unlocked. Luckily I see that it was. But then I had deleted my answer to VB, so I guess I need to rewrite that.

VB complained about me pretending not to be able to speak English well for manipulative purposes, if I understood him. But I never said I don't speak English well. I said I often don't communicate well (in any language, and all I know is English and a little German).

I also explained that, when he initially mentioned that he had had problems with overdoing discipline himself, which is what he was trying to warn people not to do to make that same mistake, and when I then referred to his overdone discipline as "mindless discipline", I didn't mean he or anyone else who does discipline unrighteously or unwisely is stupid or inferior or whatever, as I had shared earlier about some of my own experience with overdoing such discipline. I suppose calling it rote discipline might be a more agreeable term. I also said it seems true though that virtually all humans are naive, but if anyone denies being naive, I don't have a problem with that, though I feel of average naiveness myself, as I think my statements on this forum show. If I weren't naive, I don't think I'd have experienced so much opposition.

Now I remember another complaint was that I supposedly came to this forum to flog my book, though I'm not certain flog was the word, and I don't understand that term in that context. But I mentioned that I was just answering someone's question and I only mentioned my (co-written) book initially because I thought some of the members might enjoy reading it, since it's free online. I didn't come here to do any such thing. I came here because I contacted Gary Am-something asking how I might collaborate with anyone on promoting Christian Universalism and he recommended this forum. So far, though, I haven't found anyone here who seems interested in collaboration much, although I think I've personally benefited from communicating on this thread.

It's been frustrating dealing with so much opposition and resistance to almost everything I try to share on this forum, but I did quote the AA 12 & 12 here lately to the effect that any time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us, which I figure means something wrong with our thinking or attitude or the like. So I'm not trying to blame anyone for my feelings of frustration, when I mention such frustrations, I mean other than blaming myself for wrong thinking or wrong attitude. That doesn't mean others are not at fault, but I think it's up to each person to find and correct one's own flaws. And something I learned in 12 Step groups (mostly back in the 80s) is that by sharing with willing others some of our flaws and our progress with those flaws, we can learn from others' experience and help others learn from us.

And that seems to be mainly what Christianity is about. It's about following good examples, the best example being God the Father, which apparently was too abstract for people to understand how to follow well, so God gave us the Son of God as an example whom we can follow more clearly, and the Bible seems to say that rather clearly in 2 places, John and Peter, but also fairly clearly in many other places such as in many uses of the word cross and other terms, e.g. as in "Take up your cross and follow me." So the Apostles and disciples followed Christ's example and his teachings and the Bible recorded some of that so that their students and later generations could follow the Apostles' examples. And that's where the 12 Step groups and others have learned how to follow their good examples as well.

I'm disappointed that folks don't agree to stop interfering with efforts to try to learn or practice righteous discipline in this thread and I don't relish the prospect of encountering further opposition here, but, since I seem to be gaining something from this experience, it seems that I should stick around, I don't know how long, but as long as the experience is helpful.

[Molly]

God Bless you, Lloyd.  I have no idea what all the silly talk about lip balm is above your post but I sense you are a seeker and trying to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord, and I pray you find the fellowship that you are looking for here.

I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life.  Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?  Or something else?

[sheila]

 I  wrote this post once,but it disappeared.  about the term disciple and discipline having

the same 'root' word meaning...and that we are really illegetimate children without

the discipline of our Heavenly Father.Israel was sent off to Babylon for discipline..when they failed

to heed the Lord. He can and does bring hard circumstances on His children to correct them..

or bring about a change of attitude...I have expierenced this..and it is NOT pleasant.

  Genuine love..and the Holy spirit in you..with it's fruits...can and does make what seems

impossible..possible with God.  the helper assists in carrying our responsibility as sons and

daughters of the Kingdom of Light.  But as long as we exist in this corruptible flesh,we will

wrestle with powers and principalities.

[shawn]

Lloyd said...It's been frustrating dealing with so much opposition and resistance to almost everything I try to share on this forum, but I did quote the AA 12 & 12 here lately to the effect that any time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us, which I figure means something wrong with our thinking or attitude or the like. So I'm not trying to blame anyone for my feelings of frustration, when I mention such frustrations, I mean other than blaming myself for wrong thinking or wrong attitude. That doesn't mean others are not at fault, but I think it's up to each person to find and correct one's own flaws. And something I learned in 12 Step groups (mostly back in the 80s) is that by sharing with willing others some of our flaws and our progress with those flaws, we can learn from others' experience and help others learn from us.

--------------------------

Good stuff.  And I would see people's opinions less as "opposition" and more other people's opinions which they are able to share on a forum such as this one.  There are some things we are not going to agree on, but that's ok...we don't need the approval of others if The Lord is leading us in a certain direction.  Follow your heart Lloyd.

[eaglesway]

--------------------------

Good stuff.  And I would see people's opinions less as "opposition" and more other people's opinions which they are able to share on a forum such as this one.  There are some things we are not going to agree on, but that's ok...we don't need the approval of others if The Lord is leading us in a certain direction. 

Exactly. However, as we are sharing IMO we should be as dispassionate possible when we disagree so that it remains in the tone of a disagreement among scholars, students and friends, more or less- rather than cat-fights between petulant adolescents.

It seems all to often that when folks think they are "right" they think it gives them the right to treat others with sarcasm and disrespect.

I do not believe the Lord gives that right to the right, and when the right assume that right they become wrong :o)

I am firmly opposed to that attitude on either side and both sides of any dispute, because our attitude towards one another as believers, or as believers toward seekers- should be one of love and forbearance even in the midst of intense ideological disagreement.

Does anyone care to hear some sound doctrine? Here goes.........

The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
(2Ti 2:24-26)

This verse CLEARLY STATES that even when "right", and opposed by those who are opposing themselves(unteachable spirits) we are TO REMAIN KIND, BE PATIENT and GENTLY correct them. When we can't do that we are proving that WE are the unteachable one- and our "right" has become (letter) wrong(spirit).

Yes, you can hold the truth in a wrong spirit and display it in such a fashion that it brings not the fragrant aroma of Christ but rather that same old nasty bitter smell of the carnal man.

Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh. Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show it by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:11-18)

This doctrine is a foundation doctrine that is settled forever in heaven ABOVE the lesser doctrines we so often dispute about, and when we ignore it, we only show that our knowledge is nested in an immature spirit, an unrenewed mind, a carnal soul.

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(Mat 11:28-30)

Peace to all who live by this reign.

[Lloyd]

Thank you, Molly.

Molly added:
I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life.  Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?  Or something else?

The discipline that I said I wanted to practice when I started this thread is discussing emotions and plans with someone each week. The purpose of discussing emotions is to find and correct errors in my thinking and attitude. It's about the same as what you said. The advantage of focusing on emotions is that unpleasant feelings seem to be communication from God usually warning us of something that's doing us harm. Physical feelings indicate harm being done to the body, and emotional feelings indicate harm being done to the mind by erroneous thinking etc. I take sin to mean error. I guess it's possible that unpleasant emotions are sometimes not due to our own errors, but sensing someone else's pain etc, or maybe remembering something from the past, or whatever. But, generally, I find that I do usually have erroneous thinking when I review my unpleasant emotions. That thinking causes those emotions. So finding the thinking error makes it pretty easy to let go of it, as in the saying of shining light into darkness.

As others warn, it's always possible to get carried away with most any discipline, but that's why it's good to do it with others. And this particular discipline also seems to develop our sensitivity, so that we can soon recognize if we're getting carried away, in case others don't warn us. That is, getting carried away usually leads to unpleasant emotions, like with the prodigal son, I think.

Sheila said: I  wrote this post once, but it disappeared. about the term disciple and discipline having the same 'root' word meaning...and that we are really illegetimate children without the discipline of our Heavenly Father.

I'm sorry. I suppose I must've caused it to disappear, if it appeared in the thread I started and then deleted. I was fairly impulsive and thoughtless with deleting that thread.

The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God was one of the numerous references to discipline in the Bible that I was able to relate to well.

Eaglesway said: It seems all to often that when folks think they are "right" they think it gives them the right to treat others with sarcasm and disrespect.

When we become more sensitive to our own feelings, we can notice that our own sarcasm and disrespect for others feels unpleasant. So does anger. The reason we don't initially notice that is because there are pleasant feelings with those behaviors that get our attention more than the unpleasant ones. We feel we are on the side of right and justice and that feels good.

And thank you for the sound doctrine. You added: "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Mat 11:28-30) I consider the yoke to be the simple loving discipline of the Bible, which grants us "rebirth" and "eternal life" in this life, not just in the next.

[eaglesway]

As we grow in Christ, our emotional make up comes further and further under the sway of the divine nature as the Spirit in our inner man overflows at the fountainhead(heart) and encompasses all we are, spirit, soul and body. It is a long and arduous journey for most of us, birthing humility, ever growing honesty before God and men, and a gentleness filled with the strength of love and wisdom- worthy of the Lamb of God. Our Father, the Father of spirits, is faithful to raise us right :o)

[dajomaco]

The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God.

I could not be seduced by this statement .

[ded2daworld]

IMO, Never say never Daj.
Are you proud that you could not be seduced by that statement? :dontknow:
Did you want us to be impressed with your spirituality in that a single statement can't seduce you? :dontknow:
Were you telling the forum that to convince us or yourself? :dontknow:

[marie glen]

As we grow in Christ, our emotional make up comes further and further under the sway of the divine nature as the Spirit in our inner man overflows at the fountainhead(heart) and encompasses all we are, spirit, soul and body. It is a long and arduous journey for most of us, birthing humility, ever growing honesty before God and men, and a gentleness filled with the strength of love and wisdom- worthy of the Lamb of God. Our Father, the Father of spirits, is faithful to raise us right :o)

:thumbsup: I think a big part of it too, is as our eyes learn to remain upon Him, there becomes a progressing forgetting of self, and of course the progressing transformation and burning away of the dross. I love it that we have basically one 'rule', to love God.. (this is the new covenant! which saves us by filling us with Him - reconciled..)

[marie glen]

p.s. - paradox? we do need to 'discipline ourself' to stay focused? I feel this is what His bread and wine discourse was about on the eve of His crucifixion.. our daily bread/Bible and daily (new) wine of the Spirit...(?) not as a gruesome chore :rolllol: but as a joyous communion..

[Lloyd]

For most of my life I've felt that it's God's will for me to have companions with whom to collaborate, but especially companions nearby with whom to interact directly. I've sought such companions fairly often, but never found any who seemed right for me after a few months or so of knowing them. I do better at collaborating online, although I don't do a lot there either. I mostly do things independently. But the Bible seems to give us the example of living in communities of the faithful and of ministers traveling in pairs to preach to the world. And all of the faithful are called ministers who minister to one another.

I came to this forum hoping to find some folks willing to collaborate. I proposed a few things that didn't get much interest, then in January I started this thread, hoping that some would like to collaborate on spiritual discipline, which might help me find local collaboration. Hopefully, some of you will like to share on that. I had said initially that I'd like to discuss emotions and plans each week. But I've been discussing emotions daily lately, because it seemed helpful for me to do that, but it might become weekly eventually.

Members of each community of the faithful are encouraged in the Bible I think to discuss monthly or so to make plans for the progress of the community. So I wanted to get some practice doing that here too, but it may be a spell before it seems like the right time to start doing that.

For now, it seems that what might help me is hearing other forum members' thoughts on community and collaboration. I guess it would help if I analyzed my past experiences to try to determine what have been my main reasons for ceasing collaboration with people I've met. But I think the main reason is that others have never seemed cooperative or sensible enough. And there's also the fact that I've changed my views a number of times. I was vegan for 20 years and followed a religion that favored that. I think it led to health problems after 20 years, so for that and other reasons I gave up that religion. My views about Jesus changed a little bit, too, but not really very much. I guess my views about the Bible changed most. I used to think the Old Testament was awful nonsense and that there was quite a bit of nonsense in the New Testament too. But then I read some messianic Jewish websites about 15 years ago, that greatly helped me make sense of both Testaments. I'm sure my own spiritual immaturity contributed to my difficulties collaborating with others too and I don't know if I'm mature enough yet, but I have a longing for effective collaboration.

Would anyone like to share experience and thoughts on community and collaboration?

[ded2daworld]

Lloyd, this forum IS community and collaboration?(not sure how you mean that word)
We bounce ideas and thoughts off each other, post our thoughts, and share some of our spiritual journey.
We just don't do it face to face like one is "supposed" to do in a traditional church.
It's possible that  your companion relationships started fine, just like many marriages and freindships do.
However, as time goes by. we start to notice differences in attitude and beliefs and realize that there is little in common and
that there are many disagreements over what is held in common. The "normal" response is to change friends, companions, and spouses
searching for "that" one that agrees with us on almost everything - it's what makes us feel comfortable.
Even online, we tend to feel uncomfortable when someone rebuts or disagrees with our post and feel good when others stick up the  :thumbsup: or the. :iagree:
Hears a tip, if someone agrees with you, you don't learn anything. Every relationship takes work, give and take, sharing, communication all mixed together with love. This is how we grow. I commend you for wanting to fololow the biblical admonition to "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together"
Since there are very few UR congrgations, this forum is our next best thing. If something is too personal to share with the entire forum, there is always the PM available to keep your messages private. There is a wealth of good information and people are here at just about all levels of spiritual growth. May God bless your efforts for growth in Him. :Peace2: