Weekly Spiritual Discipline

[ded2daworld]

U said it better than I could VB and our experiences were similar. :Peace2:

[Lloyd]

Back to knee-jerk reactions against discipline it seems. Discipline is the same as habit or routine. We can discipline ourselves to seek God's will or to seek our own will. The latter leads to pain due to illusions. We can discipline ourselves to get carried away with mindless discipline. That doesn't mean discipline is bad. It means mindless discipline is bad etc.

I feel that God talks to us partly through our emotions. Unpleasant emotions tell me there is an error in my thinking. Seemingly like most people, I grew up thinking that my unpleasant emotions were caused by other people or events doing wrong to me. It was a surprise to learn that I cause those emotions myself, by my misconceptions. And I've found many times that by shining God's light on my unpleasant emotions, the misconceptions come to light and soon leave me, as darkness cannot exist in the light.

I learned to be pretty alert to my unpleasant emotions. Yesterday, I read a member expressing love for another member. I'm glad members get along, but upon reading the expression of love I had a feeling of annoyance and nausea at the thought of being loved by anyone besides God. It seems that it's probably true that, when people say they love someone, they often unfairly want or expect something in return. But, if there's a misconception behind the nausea I felt, I guess what's false (my misconception) is that I'm in danger of being burdened with someone's unfair expectations. So thank Ye for relieving my worry about that. Next time I hear an expression of love, I'll probably feel less nausea.

[ded2daworld]

Ah, I forgot you didn't want to hear any dissenting opinions. Sorry.
You go for it, Lloyd. We who have experienced what you want to do were only trying to save you some misery but I guess it's something you have to experience. As I said before, may God bless your efforts and I really would like to see this discipline actually work for someone and bring them closer to the Lord. :Peace2:

[VineBranch]

Back to knee-jerk reactions against discipline it seems. Discipline is the same as habit or routine.

Tarnation anyway.  Just one cotton pickin' minute here.  I'll admit that at my age, my knees do things I never imagined they would have to nerve to do by themselves when I was younger, but hold on there...  It took my nigh on three decades to come up with the notion that discipline was a way for folk to control themselves a future to their liking.  Now you tell me it's cause I didn't have the intellegence God gave a turnip and couldn't have possibly (with God's help) figured it out:  why I oughta .... 

The problem is Lloyd, in my very humble opinion, just cause someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they is stoopid.  They could actually have more scholarship, experience, and insight then you.  Calling what they do knee-jerk invalidates what might be years of study.  By the way, knee jerk (in the informal usage) means reacting according to a certain habitual manner, reacting in an unthinking manner.  How does y'all feel about using that one on your definition of discipline?  You said:  "Discipline is the same as habit or routine."  I feel like I has the right to say to you ... Back to knee-jerk reactions in favour of discipline it seems.

Next time I hear an expression of love, I'll probably feel less nausea.

Try living your life without once hearing an expression of love, and see if it doesn't want to make you thow up. :2c:

[ded2daworld]

Lloyd said, "I'm glad members get along, but upon reading the expression of love I had a feeling of annoyance and nausea at the thought of being loved by anyone besides God."
I  feel sadness for you Lloyd. True love, real love has no expectations on the loved one. We are commanded to love one another. Apostle John said, "He who says he loves God and does not love his brother is a liar" Jesus said that what we do to others is the same as doing it to Him. Many of us therefore make attempts at treating each person as if that person were the Lord himself, even to the point of dying for them. Jesus said, "No greater love is this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" I hope that I'm misunderstanding. Jesus said, If we can't love our neighbor that we have seen, then how can we love God whom we haven't seen" All these verses, strongly imply that you must let others love you and you must love others to be in a right relationship with God. :friendstu:

[Colleen]

Lloyd
I'm glad you were able to trace that visceral reaction back to its roots and hopefully dig it up and toss it out. I too struggle with love and expectations going together even though they don't.

[Lloyd]

My experience in childhood under an abusive dad tells me not to trust communication with some people (but I don't totally trust what my experience tells me either). It also confuses my thinking, so I can't communicate well anyway. My habit is to avoid such situations, but that may be too extreme a reaction and sometimes self-defeating. I seem to live too solitary a life - a sheltered life. I don't mean any offense by ignoring everyone for now.

[misszoolander]

Love, the lesson of life. I pray we all learn this lesson with the help of the Lord.  :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

IMO, all our Father wants is for us to learn to love Him and all his children(the rest of mankind) :Peace2:

[Lloyd]

My Confusion
VB & Ded misunderstood my previous post in which I said hearing expression of love nauseated me. But Colleen seemed to understand. I wasn't saying nausea was the correct way to react. I was saying my displeasures usually are signs of something being wrong with me, not necessarily with anyone else, as they say in AA etc. So I expect I'm letting go of that defect in my thinking. I wasn't justifying my nausea. I was letting go of my defective thinking that produces the nausea.

I felt discouraged yesterday when I found that I had been misunderstood again. I was despairing of ever having productive discussion on this forum thread. When I have difficulty communicating, I get confused and am then even less able to communicate. So I took a nap, hoping the confusion would dissipate. But it lasted quite a few hours after the nap. I think it did dissipate last night.

My Next Mistaken Thinking
What added to my confusion was VB's attack on the idea of seeking discipline. I can understand warning against mindless, extremist, or unrighteous discipline, but righteousness requires righteous discipline, so it seems unsound and extremist to argue against all discipline. My upbringing taught me to avoid people who seem irrational, because Dad often seemed irrational when he was often angry and he was verbally abusive and sometimes physically abusive too. So I tend to feel confused and threatened when I hear seemingly unfriendly disagreement. But I realize now that my fear was over-generalized. The fear was apparently somewhat helpful when I was young, but not so much since then, when Dad was no longer my "caregiver". Thank Ye for correcting my thinking. So I'm more hopeful again today that this discipline thread may be helpful for me and maybe others.

[ded2daworld]

Lloyd, I did misunderstand what you said my brother so it's on me for making assumptions. :sigh:
VB's attack on discipline wasn't against discipline per say. VB and I are in our sixties and simply wanted to stop going down a wrong road (like VB and I both did) thinking discipline was the answer. Discipline makes you a better person, no question about it - but  - it is a work and we have a tendency to be proud and say(or think) "I'm a much better person now" you may be in the world's eyes but Love interferes with discipline. Discipline is self centered. When I was bodybuilding 40 some years ago, social and religious events were put on hold or dismissed so that I wouldn't miss a workout and boy was I proud of the way I looked. I consider it all garbage now. The only thing I want to know is Christ. Better and better, closer and closer. IMO, the best way to know Christ and get closer to him is listening  and going out and loving people as if Jesus himself were living in your body. If your a believer, He is. The hope of glory. :Peace2:

[sheila]

 hey Llyod....I want to share this 'thing" I have..that makes nausea come up in me.

    I was a Jehovah's wittness.  when I first heard that God has a name 'Jehovah" it was

  so sweet on my tongue...I loved that name.  !0 yrs later..after the legalistic spiritual

  'training' they put me through...when I hear the name 'Jehovah" I get a nauseous

feeling.  Someone use it on the board[and I know they are not 'jw'] it still happens...

   all the pain and bad feelings of that 'captivity" is associated with it.

    I calll Him Father.......   and many of us here are very leary and once bitten twice shy

about ANYONE SAYING WE MUST DO THIS AND THAT...for our spiritual bondage in Babylon

has been painful on a lot of us.  and after Jesus set us free from such things..they are

  odious to us.  and we get a knee-jerk reaction..to anything that even 'appears' it might

  have to do with it.or lead us into bondage again.

  This does not mean that we don't receive spiritual discipline..or even practice it ourselves

as His spirit leads,my Brother.   :HeartThrob:

    i think it is some kind of 'conditioning'  that certain words and phrases bring up this reaction

in it.  Ded2 is that way with new age linguistic terms..I am that way with 'Jehovah" and

legalistic terms of salvation etc.

   I get this 'worm belly" reaction....I liken it to manna out of it's proper time..breeding worms.. :eek:

   

   

[lomarah]

Yeah Sheila I hear you!! I call Him Father or YHWH or I AM, depending on how He is revealing Himself/communicating with me at any moment. I very much prefer Yeshua to Jesus. It's sad that the names have taken on "bad odours" to many.

[VineBranch]

What added to my confusion was VB's attack on the idea of seeking discipline.

I wasn't attacking you seeking discipline.  I was attacking your assumption that what we said came from a bunch of idiots who couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.  I took you to task for saying:  "Back to knee-jerk reactions against discipline it seems."  To me, that sentence says that anyone who disagreed with you was simply responding to an involuntary spasm, and couldn't possible have a good reason for their disagreeing with you.  You came across as being the one and only enlightened one and we had better listen to your wisdom. I thought you were being rude, disrespectful, and arrogant.  Judging from you latest post, I still do.  Dissuade me of that notion if you will.

Oh ded ... mid fifties.

[dajomaco]

Llyod says
I had already co-written a book, called The Miracle of Peace, which I hoped would help persuade Christians against unjust war. And I've had the thought for several years that I need to collaborate with Jesus' followers more closely

Lloyd says When I came here, I didn't have a specific agenda in mind.

Lloyd you have been trying for quite awhile to sell your agenda.
Every time it is rejected .You Cry that we are intolerant . 

[Lloyd]

Ded said: Discipline is self centered.

Your statement is a half-truth. To be accurate you have to say "Unrighteous discipline is self-centered". Righteous discipline is not self-centered, it's from the Holy Spirit, and that's what the Bible advises for us, as I quoted earlier. Praying is discipline. Loving our neighbors is discipline. A lot of things are righteous discipline.

Sheila said: 10 yrs later..after the legalistic spiritual 'training' they put me through...when I hear the name 'Jehovah" I get a nauseous feeling.

I was in a loose-knit cult-like group too for 20 years, but maybe not as bad as JW etc.  They call themselves Faithists. I gave it up when I found that their claims about history etc didn't seem to pan out. They're actually much like CUs, but they tend to have blind faith in their inspired literature.

I don't know if you noticed, but when I have unpleasant emotions, like nausea, I've learned to suspect that the cause is something wrong in my thinking. I first learned from Natural Hygiene that physical discomfort is generally caused by something harming our bodies. Then when I joined 12 Step groups I heard something similar about uncomfortable emotions. They're usually caused by something harming our minds, something like false beliefs, like those I've discussed here before.

The AA 12 & 12 book has this statement: "It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us." So I put 2 and 2 together and figured that it's something wrong with our thinking. Most of us learn in childhood that our unpleasant emotions are caused by other people or by unfortunate circumstances. When I heard that it's usually really something wrong in ourselves, I tested it numerous times and it nearly always seemed to prove true. When I'm disturbed there's something wrong in my thinking. I think Jesus' life supports that idea. He got angry at the money changers in the temple, apparently, but other than that, he never seemed to be disturbed by anything. Even being crucified didn't disturb him much.

Anyway my simple discipline of looking for wrong thinking in myself as the possible cause of my uncomfortable emotions seems to have helped me a lot to get closer to God and to let go of a lot of wrong thinking or wrong ideas.

Dajo said: Llyod when you co wrote your book The Miracle of Peace did you co write it with
Lois Alejandra Klaric?

No, I don't remember that name. The other writers can be seen at http://2mop.webs.com.

VB said: I wasn't attacking you seeking discipline.  I was attacking your assumption that what we said came from a bunch of idiots who couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.

Thanks for not opposing my seeking discipline. And thank Ye for explaining to VB his impression was not all that accurate, if at all.

[dajomaco]

Six months ago when we would not join your group you said we were intolerant.

Honest people speaking honestly seldom are misunderstood.
You seem to be misunderstood a Lot .

[eaglesway]

OK, no need to pile on Lloyd. :o) Let's keep working towards understanding one another and keep our statements based in the scriptures and in the right spirit- then, even if we misunderstand or are misunderstood, we have someplace to go from here besides antagonism.

The statement Lloyd made about spiritual discipline versus fleshly discipline is a good one I think- and we all have at one time or another "passed through" a learning curve about how to communicate positively on the forum. Most of us are still "passing through" on the way, I hope, to a better grace :o)

The difference between sharing in order to press my point of view or rebutt yours and/or sharing in the hope that we come to an understanding is a fine line- but worthy of constant attempts.

[ded2daworld]

I still maintain that discipline is self-centered.IMO,  "If it is not of the spirit, it is sin" Sin is self-centeredness. If you aren't praying out of love and must discipline yourself to do it, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to volunteer at a homeless shelter rather than doing it out of love, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to set aside a certain amount or percentage of money to the Lord (as under compulsion)rather to give with a joyful heart, it is the wrong attitude.
Whenever we "do" anything to "score brownie points with God" it is us and not the spirit working in us. And, if it is indeed us, we think better of ourselves for "what we do for God" - God help us. The only "discipline" I would recognize it that of carefully listening to the voice of God and even then, the more you do it, the less of a discipline and the more of a joyous walking with the Lord as Adam did. If you think disciplining yourself to NOT be self-centered - you're still doing it of you and your efforts NOT the Holy Spirit working in you. :2c:

[VineBranch]

I still maintain that discipline is self-centered.IMO,  "If it is not of the spirit, it is sin" Sin is self-centeredness. If you aren't praying out of love and must discipline yourself to do it, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to volunteer at a homeless shelter rather than doing it out of love, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to set aside a certain amount or percentage of money to the Lord (as under compulsion)rather to give with a joyful heart, it is the wrong attitude.
Whenever we "do" anything to "score brownie points with God" it is us and not the spirit working in us. And, if it is indeed us, we think better of ourselves for "what we do for God" - God help us. The only "discipline" I would recognize it that of carefully listening to the voice of God and even then, the more you do it, the less of a discipline and the more of a joyous walking with the Lord as Adam did. If you think disciplining yourself to NOT be self-centered - you're still doing it of you and your efforts NOT the Holy Spirit working in you. :2c:

Too True!!

I have started to see there is really no difference between right theology, right discipline, right thought, right motivation ... what ever you do to control the future is equal.  IMO you may as well have a religion, or practice yoga, or do transcendental Meditation if all you want is results. 

[Lazarus Short]

I still maintain that discipline is self-centered.IMO,  "If it is not of the spirit, it is sin" Sin is self-centeredness. If you aren't praying out of love and must discipline yourself to do it, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to volunteer at a homeless shelter rather than doing it out of love, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to set aside a certain amount or percentage of money to the Lord (as under compulsion)rather to give with a joyful heart, it is the wrong attitude.
Whenever we "do" anything to "score brownie points with God" it is us and not the spirit working in us. And, if it is indeed us, we think better of ourselves for "what we do for God" - God help us. The only "discipline" I would recognize it that of carefully listening to the voice of God and even then, the more you do it, the less of a discipline and the more of a joyous walking with the Lord as Adam did. If you think disciplining yourself to NOT be self-centered - you're still doing it of you and your efforts NOT the Holy Spirit working in you. :2c:

Such a rigid view of things can be self-centered too.  Just saying.  :2c:

[dajomaco]

The Holy spirit separated Paul from the masses and empowered him.
The early church was blessed with wonderful gifts from the Holy Spirit.

As Judas tried to force the hand of God.
So some of the groups using the internet to force the hand of God.

Everything thing you can imagine that must happen and will happen
according to the internet has already happened.

Lets start a new country ,lets start a new city.
We will be safe ,we can keep out undesirables .
Lets separate from all those ungodly heathens.   

There are people out there now phishing  for people to join there
city, country.
This is NOT a move of the Holy Spirit .

In the Spirit of Love
I would say to Lloyd the real power of the Holy Spirit,
the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are a comfort.
I hope you stay in contact here .(You are safe here)

[micah7:9]

For me the only spiritual discipline is LOVE....Let It Shine and HE will bring me into His walk, and give me a more filling answer to all my wondering. Yeah my opinion :dsunny:

[VineBranch]

For me the only spiritual discipline is LOVE....Let It Shine and HE will bring me into His walk, and give me a more filling answer to all my wondering. Yeah my opinion :dsunny:

K!?  I think I get that but am having a really hard time seeing love as a discipline.  I see UR based on love, but as a natural outpouring of God's love, not as a way of bringing about something.  I think UR is a result of love, and God's love is something natural.  I was created to love and be loved by God.  I can't see it as a discipline.  Just my  :2c:

[Lloyd]

VB, you opined that I'm arrogant and that I regard others as stupid. Yesterday, I made only a brief reply, because I was getting a very painful headache or migraine and had to go home to seek relief. But it lasted all night.

I suppose what upset you was my reply to what you shared about your bad experience with discipline. You said you had tried extensive discipline and then found a major problem with it - I don't recall what - and you decided discipline is bad. You say you were only trying to warn me against having such a bad experience. But it felt to me like you were trying to pressure me not to pursue discipline. In my reply I implied that the type of discipline you had tried was mindless discipline.

Since then you've been suggesting that I was calling you and maybe others stupid. But I had said the same about myself earlier. I shared that I used to have the habit of looking for flaws in my surroundings in order to plan to improve them. I think I looked for flaws in people, including myself, and in relationships too. I don't remember if I wrote down brief notes as reminders at that point. But the spiritual discipline I was learning at that time made me aware that I was engaging in a mindless or pointless habit. So I stopped looking for flaws and became more accepting of them. And later I learned to ask God for his advice more often so I could correct only the flaws that He would seem to recommend.

I do regard most, if not all, people as naive and that includes me. I think I've demonstrated my naivete' here pretty well lately. I communicate imperfectly and end up annoying people. Sometimes it's my fault. I had said earlier that I was offended by what I took as opposition to my efforts to seek spiritual discipline. Yesterday, I shared a quote I like that says any time we're disturbed, no matter the cause, there's something wrong with us. So when I felt offended it's likely that something was wrong with my thinking, such as that I had a naive fear that I would not be able to find the spiritual discipline I felt I needed.

I had time to think about this last night a bit and maybe some of those thoughts are worth sharing. When I have pain, like the migraine last night, I tend to feel annoyed or resentful that there's no way to turn it off healthfully. I thought about my painful emotions too, the annoyance and resentment. I figured that those emotions probably only add to the physical pain, instead of reducing it. So I tried to find what naive ideas might be behind them. I guess it's fear of having a miserable life, of being alone in misery. The thought occurred to me some days or weeks ago that we have pain so we can care more about others who have pain. If we don't have pain ourselves, it's harder for us to imagine that others are in pain and need help. I was hoping that letting go of my fear and resentment of pain would reduce the pain, but it didn't seem to do that much. But my attitude seems be better just the same. I seem to be more confident about God's love. It's not fun to doubt His love.