THe Salvation of ALLL how God showed it to me

[VineBranch]

But I sure wi :HeartThrob: ll make an effort.

Hi Sheila.  I've found that in order for the emoticons to work, there has to be a space behind the last colon.

[sheila]

TY VB.....I am very computor challenged :laugh:

[mplsfitter539]

Laz, if I hadn't heard it happening to a very select few saints previously, I would be in even more awe. I have also read of accounts where deathbed people have actually seen the angels coming for them. There is one account of a woman born blind that began weeping and crying out, O Lord, O Lord How blessed I am that yours is the only face I've ever seen! :Pray:

If someone hears the angels coming for them does that mean that people have an immortal soul. I thought when you died you were dead and know not anything.
Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

[Lazarus Short]

Perhaps it is to give the dying comfort and hope.  I don't subscribe to the concept of the "immortal soul," as the Word of God states clearly that the soul is mortal.

[eaglesway]

What does mortal/immortal mean tho, really- imo it is unclear :o)

The soul that sinneth shall die. Well every soul has sinned(except Jesus) and every soul has died, as in "experienced death", or, better yet(imo) "entered death/come under the authority of death".

This does not necessarily mean "cease to exist"- since we are not under the ET or ED view of what death is.

When did Adam die? I think when he was separated from the tree of life, he began to die, he came under the authority of death.

Even as salvation is progressive, death is progressive. All who have not "seen Jesus" are under the shadow of the valley of death, behind/beneath "the veil"

All who have are "passed from death unto life". The veil is removed- and death IS the veil. That is the message of the veil of the temple being rent (imo)

And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
(Isa 25:7)



But I am not trying to establish an alternate doctrine to "mortal soul". i just like to ask questions that (to me) poke holes in these across the board doctrines that oppose one another such as, mortal/immortal soul; sovereign will/free will; fulfilled view/historic view- because they seldom fullfill "all" the scriptures and the truth(imo) is usually hidden(hidden wisdom 1Cor 2) somewhere beyond the veil of the opposing extremes. :o)

When Samuel came up from the grave to speak to Saul was it his soul speaking? His spirit?(How, if the spirit returns to God who gave it).


I think there are many mysteries that are meant to be unanswered and systematic theology fails to embrace and consider the "purposely placed" mysterious exceptions to our doctrines that "litter" the word. :o)

[redhotmagma]

Anna :thumbsup:

[redhotmagma]

On my grandma's deathbed she asked who that asian woman was standing there, I think she was hearing music too.  BTW to watch the life leave someone is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.  It is a very clear moment that we are not these bags of flesh only.

I'm not a psycho or something, but there was a very clear moment when she died, her eyes went dim, the life faded from her skin.  It was sad, but then I'm not sad that she's gone.  Whether she is with the Lord now, or need wait till the resurrection (from our temporal view), from her POV I believe that once you close your eyes on this side you open them at the resurrection. 

From death springs life.

[Lazarus Short]

What does mortal/immortal mean tho, really- imo it is unclear :o)

Perhaps this will make my position more clear:

dirt --> lifeless body  [made by God]

lifeless body + breath of life = living soul (Adam and everyone after) the soul now exists/is alive

living soul - breath of life = lifeless body (those who have passed on)  the soul does not now exist/is dead

Within this framework, I am impelled to think that what was brought up before Saul by the witch of Endor, was a demon.

[lomarah]

That was beautiful about your Grandma Jer.  :HeartThrob:

You can definitely tell when looking at the body of your loved one who has passed on that we are not our bodies!! It's almost creepy to look at them (for me) because there is that body they lived in... yet it's not them! They aren't there anymore...

[mplsfitter539]

What does mortal/immortal mean tho, really- imo it is unclear :o)

Perhaps this will make my position more clear:

dirt --> lifeless body  [made by God]

lifeless body + breath of life = living soul (Adam and everyone after) the soul now exists/is alive

living soul - breath of life = lifeless body (those who have passed on)  the soul does not now exist/is dead

Within this framework, I am impelled to think that what was brought up before Saul by the witch of Endor, was a demon.

I agree and as far as the spirit that was summoned by a witch it could only be an evil spirit.

[Molly]

Taste and see that the LORD is good! How blessed is the person who trusts in him!

--Psa 34:8

[ded2daworld]

Like Paul said, "This mortal shall put on immortality. :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

What does mortal/immortal mean tho, really- imo it is unclear :o)

Perhaps this will make my position more clear:

dirt --> lifeless body  [made by God]

lifeless body + breath of life = living soul (Adam and everyone after) the soul now exists/is alive

living soul - breath of life = lifeless body (those who have passed on)  the soul does not now exist/is dead

Within this framework, I am impelled to think that what was brought up before Saul by the witch of Endor, was a demon.

I agree and as far as the spirit that was summoned by a witch it could only be an evil spirit.

Well, that is not what it says tho. I think the witch gasped in shock when Samuel showed up and prophesied to Saul- a prophesy that came to pass by the way. I don't want to start an argument, but, that is what is written.

[eaglesway]

I also hear it said that it was just a vision of Elijah and Moses speaking to Jesus in the mount of transfiguration, but I think it was Moses and Elijah, just as it reads. Jesus didnt take them up that hill to see a dream of something that wasnt really happening.

Two of the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" who inhabit the "heavenly Jerusalem" appeared in council with the Lord of Glory and it was such a holy event the boys wanted to build a church around it :o)

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
(Heb 12:1)

Who is this great cloud. I know, just another metaphor :o)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)

Who are these spirits of righteous men made perfect?

I know, just another metaphor LOL

[ded2daworld]

I agree with EW on this one. IMO, The witch at Endor was shocked because she was a fake and Samuel really did appear. Also, it could not have been a demon because a correct prophecy was made and fulfilled. :2c:

[mplsfitter539]

I agree with EW on this one. IMO, The witch at Endor was shocked because she was a fake and Samuel really did appear. Also, it could not have been a demon because a correct prophecy was made and fulfilled. :2c:

How can you reconcile that the fake witch was able to summon the spirit of Samuel. Where was the spirit of Samuel that a fake witch could summon it? When a person dies that person is dead until the resurrection. If you believe that their spirit can be summoned by fake witches than the dead must also have immortal souls.
Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

[ded2daworld]

I didn't say the fake witch was able to summon him with his body. I said that was why she was surprised he was there. I believe the Lord made an exception as is his right to teach Saul a lesson since Saul was doing what he forbid others to do on pain of death.
Besides that, it was the spirit of Samuel not his physical body. The dead body goes in the ground but the spirit returns to the Lord from whence it came. The Lord was certainly able to bring the spirit of Samuel to the witch and Saul. Just like The three apostles saw Jesus, Moses and Elijah at the Mount of transfiguration. The bodies of Moses and Elijah were dead but their spirits were their with Jesus.
The spirits of those Martyred for Jesus are in heaven crying out how much longer O Lord (rev) :Peace2:

[mplsfitter539]

I didn't say the fake witch was able to summon him. I said that was why she was surprised he was there. I believe the Lord made an exception as is his right to teach Saul a lesson since Saul was doing what he forbid others to do on pain of death. :Peace2:

Ok so then this is just your opinion about what might have taken place. I guess since it just an opinion then we can agree to disagree. I understand that a spirit appeared and gave factual information to Saul but to jump to the conclusion that it was in fact the spirit of Samuel is quite a jump. Satan can appear as an angel of light I would think he is perfectly capable of smoke and mirrors mixed with some inside information. I think I saw David Copperfield do something similar before.

[eaglesway]

I didn't say the fake witch was able to summon him with his body. I said that was why she was surprised he was there. I believe the Lord made an exception as is his right to teach Saul a lesson since Saul was doing what he forbid others to do on pain of death.
Besides that, it was the spirit of Samuel not his physical body. The dead body goes in the ground but the spirit returns to the Lord from whence it came. The Lord was certainly able to bring the spirit of Samuel to the witch and Saul. Just like The three apostles saw Jesus, Moses and Elijah at the Mount of transfiguration. The bodies of Moses and Elijah were dead but their spirits were their with Jesus.
The spirits of those Martyred for Jesus are in heaven crying out how much longer O Lord (rev) :Peace2:

This is how I see it as well. Remember? Baalam was able to obtain the word of the Lord, even tho he was a sorcerer. He asked, God answered. This was no testimony to his righteousness. God will answer whom He will, when He will ,for His own reasons....even sending the "angel of the Lord" and speaking though an ass to rebuke him. Who are we to question it? Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor? Who has given to Him that He should repay? :o)

[mplsfitter539]

I didn't say the fake witch was able to summon him with his body. I said that was why she was surprised he was there. I believe the Lord made an exception as is his right to teach Saul a lesson since Saul was doing what he forbid others to do on pain of death.
Besides that, it was the spirit of Samuel not his physical body. The dead body goes in the ground but the spirit returns to the Lord from whence it came. The Lord was certainly able to bring the spirit of Samuel to the witch and Saul. Just like The three apostles saw Jesus, Moses and Elijah at the Mount of transfiguration. The bodies of Moses and Elijah were dead but their spirits were their with Jesus.
The spirits of those Martyred for Jesus are in heaven crying out how much longer O Lord (rev) :Peace2:
This is how I see it as well. Remember? Baalam was able to obtain the word of the Lord, even tho he was a sorcerer. He asked, God answered. This was no testimony to his righteousness. God will answer whom He will, when He will ,for His own reasons....even sending the "angel of the Lord" and speaking though an ass to rebuke him. Who are we to question it? Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor? Who has given to Him that He should repay? :o)

All I said is that I disagree. I am fully aware that the Lord can do anything that he wants to do. The bible does not say that is what happened so then it is all speculation and conjecture on your part. If that is what you want to believe happened then feel free I am just saying that I don't agree. When I read the bible I don't interject my own hypothesis into the scripture which can lead to a false perspective of events. As far as the statement you made about the martyred saints I would like to add that phrase is about future events not past. John was seeing into the future not the past so I would not assume that it has happened.   

[marie glen]

I believe that once you close your eyes on this side you open them at the resurrection. 

That's what I've come to believe also... :smile: 1 Thess 4, I believe is saying they are sleeping until then.. but I believe the Lord and/or angels come to get them/us when we pass.. (sometimes I wonder if 'ghosts' aren't some sleepwalking, but that's just crazy!! so not seriously:)

[marie glen]

P.S -- i LOVED reading these accounts!!! and am thinking I'll be reading more of them (the older ones)
blessings! :smile:

[mplsfitter539]

What does mortal/immortal mean tho, really- imo it is unclear :o) I think the witch gasped in shock when Samuel showed up and prophesied to Saul- a prophesy that came to pass by the way. I don't want to start an argument, but, that is what is written.

I am not telling you that your scenario may not have some truth in it but what I am saying is stop saying "I think" or "I thought" or really "I anything". I=your opinion. And I don't want to start an argument either.

[ded2daworld]

Then why did you say "I" don't want to start an argument here right after telling eaglesway to quit saying "I" anything?
It's called politeness and the realization that we may be wrong. Everything here is the opinion of the forum members.
This is not a debate, this is not an argument, and we don't tell others what not to say :Peace2: :2c:

[mplsfitter539]

Then why did you say "I" don't want to start an argument here right after telling eaglesway to quit saying "I" anything?
It's called politeness and the realization that we may be wrong. Everything here is the opinion of the forum members.
This is not a debate, this is not an argument, and we don't tell others what not to say :Peace2:

OK but at least use the  :2c: icon to clear up any confusion.