book of Revelation?

[redhotmagma]

it being translated as apocalypse is untrue ...

Untrue?

I submit a sample entry from an online dictionary for the word revelation:
Theology .
a. God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures.
b. an instance of such communication or disclosure.
c. something thus communicated or disclosed.
d. something that contains such disclosure, as the Bible.
If you would, could you please pay particular attention to the next entry ...
4.
( initial capital letter  ) . Also called Revelations, The Revelation of St. John the Divine. the last book in the new testament; the Apocalypse. Abbreviation:  Rev.

I went into other books to give some roundness to the concept of unveiling, or revealing if you prefer.  Even reveal the english word means to unveil.  It comes from re + velum in Latin.  velum=veil.

The origin of the word, as I know it, comes from the Middle English through the Old French revelacion, dating back to C. 1300 AD.  We can trace the stem revelatio to late Latin.  Revelat is the past particle of revelo/revelare - 'to reveal', then you add the ion.  If anything I would us disclosure before unveiling.

The OT prophets didn't even understand what they were looking at.

Not a one of them?  God told no one anything?  There wasn't one prophet who understood, yet the same God gave all the prophecies? Could you cite those sources please.  I really would like to know how we can prove that.

What I said was untrue was that it is translated as apocalypse.  Apocalypse is a transliteration of apokalypse.  A translation would be unveiling or manifestation, or revealing.  My name is Jeremiah.  That is a transliteration of Yah-Ramaah-Yahu (something like that).  The translation is :God (yahweh) has exalted (yahweh).  The translation has a meaning to us.  The transliteration doesn't besides calling me for dinner.

Here is the etymology I found for reveal
[Middle English revelen, from Old French reveler, from Latin revlre : re-, re- + vlre, to cover (from vlum, veil).]

But those don't matter to me, as we've discussed before.  To me what matters is what the meaning in the greek was, and the Hebrew from which their concepts derived.  And IMO and IDSO (in dr. Strong's opinion  :LH:) It means to uncover/unveil.

[Molly]

[The] "Revelation" [of Jesus Christ]  [Rev 1:1]

G602
αποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.



G601
αποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

[shawn]

For me, the book of Revelations makes more sense when you look at it as a symbolic picture of how Christ defeats everything that separates creation from union with Him.  I just can't see using the book of Revelations as some sort of predictor for an end of age war...good vs evil in an epic showdown.  It makes much more sense to me when I look at my attitudes, vices, ego, selfishness, sin etc as anti-Christ and how Christ will defeat those in each of our lives.  I do believe its an epic showdown...but at the individual level in the individual heart.

[eaglesway]

The words in Shawns post, "for me", are humble and true. So much of the revelation of God is 'for me'. We are receiving promptings from the Holy Spirit that are about who we are and where we are going individually- and altho there is, (IMO) an undergirding 'revelation' that is foundational, we are on a journey of individual discipleship. For those who look to the corporate work of the body, the communion of disciples, friends and fellows of Christ, only as we can come together and say "for me", in respect and love, do our words add to the 'common union', comunion of the saints. By such a small concession, understanding is subjected to a desire not to offend the brethren, or to assert the supremacy of ones own view- understanding that the unity of the faith begins with my humility, not me "humbling" others.

[Molly]

We talk about the 'veil,' as if we knew what that means.   We talk about the 'carnal mind,' as if we also know what that means.

But, I was just looking again at the definition of that word, apokaluptō.   It means, 'to take off the cover.'

A cover hides something else.  It keeps it from being seen.  It keeps it from being manifested and revealed.

In our case, the cover is the human body.   And, what is it covering?

[VineBranch]

What I said was untrue was that it is translated as apocalypse.  .

Jerome would have transliterated it.  By 1200 AD, the word apocalypse already had an English definition.

When the English Bibles came into being the word apocalypse was not a transliteration, but a genuine English word.  It was used in Middle English.  Even now, after years of use, and change the word apocalypse has a meaning (usually somehow something dealing with the end of the world).  It had over a thousand years to become an English word and it did.  It already meant something when the Geneva and Bishops Bible were written, and certainly when the KJV was first penned.

I don't get something here though.  We vilify the Greek because it brought in the words and concept of Hell yet when English takes us to places Greek can't, we somehow enshrine the Greek:  How come?

As I was writing this, I harkened back to the previous thread when I was discussing the English word Gospel, and all the flack was centered on what the Greek word meant.  I'm not sure anyone here can tell me what the Koine speaker thought when writing, but we understand there are certain generalizable, transferrable thoughts.  I trust God to protect his Bible into which ever language He says it should be.  We talk about scripture being inspired by God, but we don't seem to want to accept that God also inspires others to make English scriptures say what He wants them to say.  I guess I need to ask:  do you want an English Bible?  Do you want a Bible in Greek but with English words?  Do you want a Bible in English, but with Greek words?  I am of the opinion that God can speak, hear, and inspire English as magnificently, as He can inspire Hebrew, Slovakian, or pidgin Hawaiian.  I've made this point before and feel it appropriate to make it again.  Islam demands the Quran only be the Quran if it is read in Arabic.  Do you think the Bible is only the Bible if it is read in ancient Hebrew?  If you do, then we need to go back to the ancient Phoenician and see what the words were in the original.

[jabcat]

i edited 'authentic' [as in, "question of authenticy"] out of the title of the posts - nothing else was touched in anyone's posts.

[eaglesway]

"I don't get something here though.  We vilify the Greek because it brought in the words and concept of Hell yet when English takes us to places Greek can't, we somehow enshrine the Greek:  How come?"

Good Point

It makes no sense, really. Hebrew thought would be the mode of expression even if some believe the greek language was being spoken by the Jews at that time. 
I think, however, they were probably speaking greek on the street but they were speaking hebrew or aramaic out of the Hebrew mindset when they were discussing spiritual things and their heritage- thats just my opinion.

[reFORMer]

God has done various kinds of things at certain times in my life.  One sort of thing, whether over long or short periods of time, is inspiration concerning His written word.  This has happened with certain words, several topics and specific areas of scripture.  It has happened concerning parts of the Book of Revelation.  Finding across the broad gamut of such experiences they are occasionally less than perfect, I try not to hold too close or too tightly those things concerning God which men may be very enthused about, including the man of my own heart.  Never the less, this working of the Holy Spirit that has utilized Revelation to enlighten my understanding makes me copy my Father and respect this ancient book as His chosen vehicle.

I would add, it is much higher in quality as we would expect from Scripture.  I don't find this elevation in other books I've read that some claim as Holy Scripture.  Some of these may be of a middle place between Scripture and great books.  There even seems to be some kind of anointing for Shakespeare; but, that doesn't mean it should be included in the Bible.  Similar to The Revelation are the objections to the last book to be canonized in Hebrew Scripture:  The Song of Songs.  "There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and virgins without number..."  (SS 6⁸)  Later in life Solomon had a thousand queens, two thousand concubines, and innumerable virgins.  How could a man with such outlandish sexual appetites be used to write Holy Scripture?  Yet deeper study convinces me of its Divine origin.  The Proverb says something like, "As the mouth tastes food, so the ear tries words."  We are born of The Truth.  Discernment is hard-wired into this new creation man.  While there may be more secure and objective "proofs," the subjective experiences testified to by God's people regarding these books as Holy Scripture over the millennia is honorably reliable.

[ded2daworld]

From VB     Re: book of Revelation?« Reply #30 on: Today at 04:52:29 AM »

  :iagree: 100% :thumbsup:

[redhotmagma]

I think, however, they were probably speaking greek on the street but they were speaking hebrew or aramaic out of the Hebrew mindset when they were discussing spiritual things and their heritage- thats just my opinion.

This is the essense of what I'm trying to say.  There is a mindset when these words were penned.  There is a mindset, as you say VB, that apocalypse has, that it means the end of the world, but is that what it meant originally?  Notice it was Jerome who translated that.  HMMM, Jerome 

Oh yeah one of the big hitters in bringing the pagan notion of ET to the bible we have now.  How?  Through the Latin Vulgate.  Sorry but I don't put much weight into Jerome's definitions. 

I want an english bible.  But one with erroneous translations? or transliterations being pawned off as translations, which have taken on a meaning that was never there?  NO.  Just like aionos, hades, gehenna, the words had actual meanings originally that through the years have taken on meanings that were not meant to be there. 

When the HS inspired the men of old to write the words kolasis aionon, did it ever have the meaning of eternal punishment?  OR Basanos did it ever mean to have literal fire burn you for all eternity?

I think you would answer no.  So why do you find it so hard to believe that other words have taken on improper meanings?

How about ecclesia?  Did the HS mean a building and a denomination, with a heirarchy of men running it, now called the church?  HELL no.

How about we just take the translators word for it because they've never made mistakes.  There is no bias when translating.  There is no "lost in translation".  We can go back to believing in eternal hell, cus well thats what it says in my english bible.
And I might as well just forget what the greek says because God has preserved his bible all these years, through holy men. The same men that brought us the inquisition, indulgences, burning of heretics, denominations.

How about fire?  To most now they see fire as bad.  They see the fire as destruction, torture.  But there was a  mindset.  IT meant Gods presence.  It meant purifying.  Which is right?  Brimstone?  Thats the really bad part of fire, the flaming rock that will fall out of the sky and kill all the bad guys right?  No its sulfur, well sulfur is the smell of hell so it must be bad.  There was  mindset.  Sulfur was medicine, it was used to purify temples, and homes.  It was the major part of the dead sea.  People came all over for salt from the dead sea for its medicinal purposes.  But no we should just forget all that because brimstone has taken on an english meaning, and so it must mean flaming rocks.

  :Chinscratch: :dontknow:

For ME revelation means unveiling, it has a picture, as the Hebrew thought was visual. 

[eaglesway]

Yes, exactly- Hebrew thought was visual.

Hebrew thought encompassed paradoxical paradigms as well.

In English and German we are big on "either or" definitions.

The Hebrews were more "eastern" and "mystical" in there thinkng.

In other words- they could see the good side and the "bad"(difficult/unpleasant/harsh) side of fire- AT THE SAME TIME.

And lets make no mistake about it, the "bad" side IS THERE- but always IN THE PROCESS TOWARDS A "GOOD" END.

"All discipline is "for the moment" unpleasant but "in the end yields" the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

We are always trying to split coins down the center and wager heads vs tails.

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, exactly- Hebrew thought was visual.

Hebrew thought encompassed paradoxical paradigms as well.

In English and German we are big on "either or" definitions.

The Hebrews were more "eastern" and "mystical" in there thinkng.

In other words- they could see the good side and the "bad"(difficult/unpleasant/harsh) side of fire- AT THE SAME TIME.

And lets make no mistake about it, the "bad" side IS THERE- but always IN THE PROCESS TOWARDS A "GOOD" END.

"All discipline is "for the moment" unpleasant but "in the end yields" the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

We are always trying to split coins down the center and wager heads vs tails.

That reminds me of what my best friend once said:  Life is not either/or - it is either and or.  I suppose you could say that Life in an unopened Schrodinger's Cat.

[micah7:9]

I think, however, they were probably speaking greek on the street but they were speaking hebrew or aramaic out of the Hebrew mindset when they were discussing spiritual things and their heritage- thats just my opinion.

This is the essense of what I'm trying to say.  There is a mindset when these words were penned.  There is a mindset, as you say VB, that apocalypse has, that it means the end of the world, but is that what it meant originally?  Notice it was Jerome who translated that.  HMMM, Jerome 

Oh yeah one of the big hitters in bringing the pagan notion of ET to the bible we have now.  How?  Through the Latin Vulgate.  Sorry but I don't put much weight into Jerome's definitions. 

I want an english bible.  But one with erroneous translations? or transliterations being pawned off as translations, which have taken on a meaning that was never there?  NO.  Just like aionos, hades, gehenna, the words had actual meanings originally that through the years have taken on meanings that were not meant to be there. 

When the HS inspired the men of old to write the words kolasis aionon, did it ever have the meaning of eternal punishment?  OR Basanos did it ever mean to have literal fire burn you for all eternity?

I think you would answer no.  So why do you find it so hard to believe that other words have taken on improper meanings?

How about ecclesia?  Did the HS mean a building and a denomination, with a heirarchy of men running it, now called the church?  HELL no.

How about we just take the translators word for it because they've never made mistakes.  There is no bias when translating.  There is no "lost in translation".  We can go back to believing in eternal hell, cus well thats what it says in my english bible.
And I might as well just forget what the greek says because God has preserved his bible all these years, through holy men. The same men that brought us the inquisition, indulgences, burning of heretics, denominations.

How about fire?  To most now they see fire as bad.  They see the fire as destruction, torture.  But there was a  mindset.  IT meant Gods presence.  It meant purifying.  Which is right?  Brimstone?  Thats the really bad part of fire, the flaming rock that will fall out of the sky and kill all the bad guys right?  No its sulfur, well sulfur is the smell of hell so it must be bad.  There was  mindset.  Sulfur was medicine, it was used to purify temples, and homes.  It was the major part of the dead sea.  People came all over for salt from the dead sea for its medicinal purposes.  But no we should just forget all that because brimstone has taken on an english meaning, and so it must mean flaming rocks.

  :Chinscratch: :dontknow:

For ME revelation means unveiling, it has a picture, as the Hebrew thought was visual.

:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup: :iagree:

[marie glen]

...surely, imo, it's the unveiling of all truth and untruth from one another... this surely would include as the visions testify, the collapse of all un-true.. Surely what is untrue cannot (ultimately)  remain standing?? Nor would we want it to :smile: The) unveiling.. aka, surely is ultimate reality... from which all else can only fall (away)..
- The whole covenant, since Genesis 3;15 is to "defeat death and the grave, the works of the devil" Hebrews 2:14 and 1 Jn 3:18.

After creation and before the falling away from perfection/God/life, God said "behold! It's all Good!" :smile:

:2c:

[dajomaco]

The crime – Twisting Scripture.

The Motive – Control of Mankind.

The Weapon – Hell.

The Accused – The Popes ---  the King and Queens of England.

I am not sure what happened in the above, how that all worked out.
But I did over hear some of those involved in the case talking out side.
The reason the Popes and the King and Queens of England used Hell as there weapon was because there demonstrations of cruel punishment against one an other was
exhausted.
They had killed each others translators and said they were heretics.
They had killed each others translators in front their children.
They had killed the children of each others translators in front of the translators.
They tied each others translators to four horses and have them pull in different direction.
They called being it quartered.
They had burned each others translators alive in the village square.
They ran out of nasty thinks to do .
So they went back to the graves dug up the bones of each others translators
and pulverized there bones.

They realized that there was only so much psychical pain you could inflict.
So they got their translators to instill this concept of never ending torture
for the other guy and all of there adhearends.

[Molly]

Satan is the god of this Age....

[redhotmagma]

RHMag, You quoted, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants––things which must shortly take place."
Do we have a new definition of shortly? 2,000 years is a long shortly - especially since "shortly" has never been more than 500 years in the Bible. Maybe the preterists are on to something... :Peace2:

For sure, I tend to lean that way, for the things in the natural.  But it also says who was and is and is to come.  Christ was revealed, is being revealed, and will continue to be revealed.  Until the beast in me is thrown down, the warring nature, and when that mystery is unveiled ,that of iniquity , which is the cherubim/beast veil being torn the veil of his/our flesh.  When the veil is pulled aside then we all with unveiled faces will fully and purely reflect the glory of the Lord.  This is the unveiling of the sons of God, that sets creation free.

It must shortly come to pass in each of us. 

Is there future outward things to happen?  I believe there may be, just I don't think it will be anything like Left Behind.

:2c:

[ded2daworld]

I hear you on the "left-behind" series. Whenever a book(s) is massively popular (popular with the masses) it is ear tickling and confirming people's misconceptions. I watched 2 of them with my ET wife but told her I couldn't take any more. They were ludicrous.

[dajomaco]

God has done various kinds of things at certain times in my life.  One sort of thing, whether over long or short periods of time, is inspiration concerning His written word.  This has happened with certain words, several topics and specific areas of scripture.  It has happened concerning parts of the Book of Revelation.  Finding across the broad gamut of such experiences they are occasionally less than perfect, I try not to hold too close or too tightly those things concerning God which men may be very enthused about, including the man of my own heart.  Never the less, this working of the Holy Spirit that has utilized Revelation to enlighten my understanding makes me copy my Father and respect this ancient book as His chosen vehicle.

I would add, it is much higher in quality as we would expect from Scripture.  I don't find this elevation in other books I've read that some claim as Holy Scripture.  Some of these may be of a middle place between Scripture and great books.  There even seems to be some kind of anointing for Shakespeare; but, that doesn't mean it should be included in the Bible.  Similar to The Revelation are the objections to the last book to be canonized in Hebrew Scripture:  The Song of Songs.  "There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and virgins without number..."  (SS 6⁸)  Later in life Solomon had a thousand queens, two thousand concubines, and innumerable virgins.  How could a man with such outlandish sexual appetites be used to write Holy Scripture?  Yet deeper study convinces me of its Divine origin.  The Proverb says something like, "As the mouth tastes food, so the ear tries words."  We are born of The Truth.  Discernment is hard-wired into this new creation man.  While there may be more secure and objective "proofs," the subjective experiences testified to by God's people regarding these books as Holy Scripture over the millennia is honorably reliable.

Very well said reformer!

Once I found out that the purest scriptural writings of God,
were written on my mind and heart.
When I read other scriptures I test them against what
was written on my heart and mind.

Then I realize that the word is a living word.
Never changing and always GROWING .

[VineBranch]

What I said was untrue was that it is translated as apocalypse.  .

I owe you a public apology red.  I should have let this drop when it stopped being about love and started becoming about being right.  This has turned into an argument, and I started it. I have become one of those guys Paul wrote about to Timothy, the guy who "... has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction."  I owe the whole forum and apology.  I let trying to be right, become more important then trying to help.  Sorry guys. 

[dajomaco]

 Wow there is so much Love and common courtesy floating
around Tent Makers that argument is hard to come by.

[rosered]

Wow there is so much Love and common courtesy floating
around Tent Makers that argument is hard to come by.

Yes brother , the Spirit of God is moving and breathing new life in us all it seems .


Iam  gratful for  this , praise be to God for  hearing our  prayers !!  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

VB :friendstu:  it's hard for all of us...going a way we have not gone before.  and especially

  someone just 3 months into it.  The revelation of the salvation of all men kinda

  rocks our whole world and turns things upside down.  Just hang on to Him..He is your rock!!

   He will finish the spirit work He has begun in you.
...

[lomarah]

Annnnd I'm in tears lol.  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob: