book of Revelation?

[anti_nietzsche]

I must admit that I don't fully understand the book of Revelation. Actually I sincerely doubt if I should regard it as a true inspired book.

I don't have the same doubts about the OT prophecies.

I read in William Barclay's commentary (a standard commentary, nothing esoteric), that this book of the bible was likely not written by one author and actually had many contributing authors, so it would be more likely a kind of compendium of things that went around in early christianity. IE, some had visions, some a small revelation, some had insights, some had thought up comparisons to other things, and so on. And somehow someone compiled all of these and put them together in a book that in our day nobody really can understand anymore. Every other authentically prophetic book in the bible (like Isaiah, Jeremiah and so on) had just one author, but the Revelation seems to have many.

I am not sure, but it seems to have a wholly different spirit than other parts of the NT. The whole way I feel when reading this book is entirely different from the Gospels or the Epistles. For example, the Gospels and the book of Acts open a way into the future, but the book of Revelation seems to end the future actually.

There doesn't seem to be hardly anything positive in this book beyond its first part when Jesus speaks to the churches and shows us things what we can do to reap a reward from them, from Jesus Himself. But the way history plays out in the book seems really ... well, sorry, I must call it weird. There's nothing in it that reminds me to Martin Luther King or to other christians I revere so much.

How do you think of this book? Felt anything crazy about it too? How does the book "feel" to you?

I don't know how to say it, I've "digested" the rest of the bible, but this book? I'm extremely puzzled by it, and it feels like a big burden on my mind.

[ded2daworld]

Hi Anti-
my mentor had a ThD and refused to discuss "revelation" with me until I had read it throuigh at least 40 times. (I was a brand new Christian) I did so and guess what? I feel the same way as you do about it. I have read at least 20 different interpretations of what the book means. I know it says you will be blessed by reading it, but I'm not, except like you said the first 3 chapters or so. IMO, it isn't worth the time and trouble to try to figure out what is said "veiled" cause "Veiled" doesn't help. I have enough trouble following and living the parts of scripture I DO understand to worry about scripture that NOBODY has proof positive of what it means (for the most part-the veiled or prophetic part.
(BTW- all my mentor told me was several different theories about it and each had scriptural support) :Peace2:

[VineBranch]

I concur.  I have also found that the popularity of Revelation seems to wax and wane.  New Christians seem to be attracted to it.  People with agendae seem to be attracted to it.  I have also found that those who are attracted to 'Pie in the Sky' seem to like it.

I've also found that those same people seem to favour it when then need something.  The other books are always there, and we discuss them obsequiously.  Revelation seems to be hauled out when we need some sort of grand, dramatic, end to things.

It's also been my experience that when churches host visiting teachers who specialize in Revelation, they only do so very infrequently.  It's the only book in the Bible (except for the warnings to the specific churches maybe), which to me reads like science fiction/fantasy:  action, drama, strange symbols, and most everyone I know has some sort of esoteric interpretation of what it all means.  Maybe it's the Bible's Rorschach test?  You see what you need to help you cope and if you don't need the drama you see nothing?

[sheila]

well. I will stand up for the Book of Revelations..even though it mean I am drama seeking,

or have an agenda or seek pie in the sky.  Red herrings,strawman arguments and slippery slopes.

all.....only the word of God is the word of God.  what? remove the book of Revelation section

next?

   People have been twisting scripture for their own agenda from the beginning..and the

  book of revelations is no different.  But, that does not invalidate the scriptures,as the

  word of God..inspiried of the Holy spirit.

 

[redhotmagma]

Revelation is one of the books that gets kicked around a lot.  It wasn't included in some of the early bibles and things like that.  But for me, I think it is actually the most important book of the bible, if you had to pick one.

Now I actually rarely read it.  And I don't know when all the bowls and plagues happen, I don't have any timelines or anything.  I actually don't understand it very well.  It is revealed piece by piece.  Small bit by small bit to me.

But I see it as a cypher for the entire bible.  And it all starts with the first verse.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants––things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

First off revelation means unveiling.  I would start there.  I did a long study on coverings, veils etc.  You would say this book is a mystery yes?  Paul speaks of the revelation of the mystery hidden from ages past.  Paul received this teaching in the 3rd heaven.  John received this Revelation in the third heaven (it never says it specifically but he is called up into heaven). 

What about the mystery?  Christ IN you is the hope of glory.  The two shall become one flesh.  He's making one NEW MAN out of all nations.  Who is this New man?  Christ.  So go back to Rev 1.  The unveiling of Jesus Christ.  Where??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

IN YOU.  Who wears a veil?  A bride.  Who are you?  His bride.
Where else do we see a veil?  The temple.  Who are you?  His temple

The two shall become one, this is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church.  The two shall become one?????????????????????????????????

John 17 :22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

      25"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

In Christ (or Christ in Us) we have: 
The same love the Father gave him
The same glory Jesus was given

Just as Christ is, so are YOU in the world
We are now seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father

You are the temple of God , you are the bride of God, you are the body of God, you are the son of God.

The word is made flesh and tabernacling in you. 

1 co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Face to Face:

2 co 2:12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away (in part). 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

We will know as we are fully known.  What kind of intimacy do you think that is?  UNITY, ONENESS.  Seeing Face to Face speaks of intimacy.  Unveiled faces because the groom has pulled back the veil and is going to join himself to the bride.  What does that union produce??????????????????????????

The Son

All creation waits with eager longing for the Unveiling of the Sons of God.

[sheila]

Amen....

[ded2daworld]

Yeah VB. Howcome you never hear about a bible "specialist" in James, or John or Peter, or Timothy or Titus. I think it's because those books can't be twisted enough to make itching ears go "OOOh and AAHHH and I've never heard it explained like that before - now it all makes sense."  :Peace2:

RHMag, You quoted, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants––things which must shortly take place."
Do we have a new definition of shortly? 2,000 years is a long shortly - especially since "shortly" has never been more than 500 years in the Bible. Maybe the preterists are on to something... :Peace2:

[Molly]

John is transported into the end of the age where he see the visions of things which --at that time in the future--will shortly come to pass.


7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

--Rev 1

[misszoolander]

ahhhh the book of revelation.

How frequently it's scriptures are pulled out for the justification of ET. Some people see revelation as revealing the end.
I however see it as revealing the beginning.

[eaglesway]

I see it as revealing the Alpha Omega and His Bride.

[VineBranch]

well. I will stand up for the Book of Revelations..even though it mean I am drama seeking,

or have an agenda or seek pie in the sky.  Red herrings,strawman arguments and slippery slopes.

all.....only the word of God is the word of God.  what? remove the book of Revelation section

next?

   People have been twisting scripture for their own agenda from the beginning..and the

  book of revelations is no different.  But, that does not invalidate the scriptures,as the

  word of God..inspiried of the Holy spirit.

I don't think that's the issue sheila.  We are to divide the word.  Even Peter put limits on which parts of Paul's writings should be seen as scripture.  That tells me, the other parts are not.  So, some are important, and it is up to us to divide it properly.

[jabcat]

I must admit that I don't fully understand the book of Revelation. Actually I sincerely doubt if I should regard it as a true inspired book.

After several posts, I guess this is a good place to ask the question;  can we clarify what it is we're actually discussing in this thread?  Is it "is Revelation part of the written Word, part of inspired scripture, or should we reject it"?  If so, we have this;  http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/  ("discussion WITHIN the scriptures/outright textual criticism not an allowed topic..")

If it's "I believe/accept that it's inspired, I just don't understand much about it - and if I ever do, God's going to have to show it to me", then I'm on board too.   :laugh:

[VineBranch]

Revelation ...

Thanks Red.  I'm a bit confused though, and was wondering if I could show you where I lost the sense.

I believe you said:

"Revelation is one of the books that gets kicked around a lot.  It wasn't included in some of the early bibles and things like that.  But for me, I think it is actually the most important book of the bible, if you had to pick one."

You would say Revelation is more important than Genesis?  You would put it above any of the Gospels?

Then I think you said:

"But I see it as a cypher for the entire bible."

Okay, you've lost me.  In the paragraph before this sentence you said :  "I actually don't understand it very well."  Yet you know it's a cypher through which we must run all other scriptures in order to understand them?


I believe you also said:

"First off revelation means unveiling."

As a word used in a sentence it means revealing, or disclosure ... so yes unveiling may work, but I think it is a stretch.  Unveiling would have the sense that there was something overshadowing something else, and the removal of that thing would make the object appear.  The book stands bare before us.  Secondly, that is if it is used in that context, but not if it has an initial capital, then it is the title of the book, and is usually translated as The Apocalypse.

Then you quote from different books but I found no citations from Revelation itself.

I think, with all due respect, I missed your point.

[Lazarus Short]

Even Peter put limits on which parts of Paul's writings should be seen as scripture.  That tells me, the other parts are not. 

I agree, and I think it can be shown in a few places that Paul did too (in the sense of what he said being from God), but yet, everything Paul and Peter wrote is, by definition, scripture - that is to say, that-which-is-written.

Now, if we're going to toss the Revelation, we are also going to have to toss large parts of the book of Daniel, with their similar symbols and weird beasts.  No, we must let the Bible interpret itself, just as Kosh says that the Truth points to itself.  We should not use our failure to understand be made to look like the Book has failed.  :doh:

[eaglesway]

IMO, Peter never placed anything Paul wrote outside scripture. He simply said there were things in Pauls writings that were hard to be understood, and that some people were twisting them, "just as they do the rest of the scriptures".

This in fact rather confirmed that Peter regarded Paul's writings as scriptures.

[eaglesway]

The words of John's revelation draw pictures of spiritual reality. This is a common method of prophetic communication throughout the Old Testament- and more emphatically, was the primary method through which our Lord and Savior taught. Nearly everything in the book of revelation is drawn of references from earlier prophecies, such as the opening vision of Jesus, standing among the candlesticks. The candlestick is from Zechariah 4, and in that prophecy the angel of the Lord asks Zechariah, "What seest thou?".

This is the language of revelation. "What seest thou" and "What hearest thou".

Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

This is where the revelation begins(Rv 1 Jesus among the churches/candlesticks), and it is also where it ends, (Rv 22 "The Spirit and the Bride say 'Come' and let him that hears say 'Come'").

None of the images of revelation are original, in the sense that there is always a point of reference for them in earlier writings including the epistles.

It is not given to being opened only by intellect. It is given to being opened by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God.

This is the church age. IMO Revelation is primarily the book that unveils the Bride, and her place in this age and the age to come- mother of the sons and daughters of God, a priesthood destined to reign in love and righteousness until the adversaries are all subject and the whole creation is set free into their freedom, and God is all in all

[VineBranch]

IMO, Peter never placed anything Paul wrote outside scripture. He simply said there were things in Pauls writings that were hard to be understood, and that some people were twisting them, "just as they do the rest of the scriptures".

This in fact rather confirmed that Peter regarded Paul's writings as scriptures.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
(2Pe 3:15-16)

When Paul speaks of the patience of the Lord Peter says it qualifies as scripture.  When he tells Timothy to bring his cloak back with him, I'm guessing not so much so.

[eaglesway]

When Paul is telling Timothy to bring his cloak back to him, it is incidental information, but you were not that specific in your former reference to "the other parts". But even the incidental information in the scriptures is scripture however, even if only for the purpose of verifying the time of the writing through Paul's personal references.

The relevant issue then would be a clarification of the fact that all of Pauls writing in the NT(with the possible exception of some few pieces of incidental information) are scripture.

IMO it is all scripture but I wouldn't argue the point on incidental info.

[ded2daworld]

Jab said regarding this thread, "If it's "I believe/accept that it's inspired, I just don't understand much about it - and if I ever do, God's going to have to show it to me", then I'm on board too."

I didn't want anyone to mistake by my post that I doubt Revelation as inspired scripture. I do not doubt it is scripture. I doubt anyone that says they know 100% what it means.
...and by beneficial to read-"ALL scripture is beneficial" but the scripture that is understood has to be more beneficial to living our lives for God than scripture we must speculate on the meaning.  :Peace2:

[redhotmagma]

VB:

apokolupsis G602 is the word used in Rev 1. 

It comes from G601 apokolupto.  Apo=away from, kalupto=cover/veil.

Kalupto is used in 2 co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

it being translated as apocalypse is untrue, it is transliterated as apocalypse.  A translation would be unveiling, manifesting, uncovering, revealing.  They all mean the same thing.  Removing the covering.

I went into other books to give some roundness to the concept of unveiling, or revealing if you prefer.  Even reveal the english word means to unveil.  It comes from re + velum in latin.  velum=veil.

As far as me not understanding it, well, I don't fully.  Not that I understand any of the bible fully.  And for it being the cypher, like EW said none of the symbols are new.  They are all derived from earlier prophecies, including the unveiling of the mystery which was given to Paul.  Maybe saying its the summation of prophecy would be a better phrase?  But I believe we can't understand the OT prophecies without those from the new.  And Rev is the granddaddy of them all.  Why?  it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.  Only in christ is the velum removed.  The OT prophets didn't even understand what they were looking at.

One example that EW used is the lampstands.  7 of them.  Where do we see those?  The menorah.  So the menorah points to the church, the lights of the world.

[ded2daworld]

7 lampstands
Sevenfold spirit of God?
oil in lampstands represents Holy Spirit?
light from lampstands 7 represents God? :dontknow:

[VineBranch]

Jab said regarding this thread, "If it's "I believe/accept that it's inspired, I just don't understand much about it - and if I ever do, God's going to have to show it to me", then I'm on board too."

I didn't want anyone to mistake by my post that I doubt Revelation as inspired scripture. I do not doubt it is scripture. I doubt anyone that says they know 100% what it means.
...and by beneficial to read-"ALL scripture is beneficial" but the scripture that is understood has to be beneficial to living our lives for God than scripture we must speculate on the meaning.  :Peace2:

I think you are right.  It reminds me of me favourite Mark Twain quote.  Apparently he said, "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."

[VineBranch]

it being translated as apocalypse is untrue ...

Untrue?

I submit a sample entry from an online dictionary for the word revelation:
Theology .
a. God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures.
b. an instance of such communication or disclosure.
c. something thus communicated or disclosed.
d. something that contains such disclosure, as the Bible.
If you would, could you please pay particular attention to the next entry ...
4.
( initial capital letter  ) . Also called Revelations, The Revelation of St. John the Divine. the last book in the new testament; the Apocalypse. Abbreviation:  Rev.

I went into other books to give some roundness to the concept of unveiling, or revealing if you prefer.  Even reveal the english word means to unveil.  It comes from re + velum in Latin.  velum=veil.

The origin of the word, as I know it, comes from the Middle English through the Old French revelacion, dating back to C. 1300 AD.  We can trace the stem revelatio to late Latin.  Revelat is the past particle of revelo/revelare - 'to reveal', then you add the ion.  If anything I would us disclosure before unveiling.

The OT prophets didn't even understand what they were looking at.

Not a one of them?  God told no one anything?  There wasn't one prophet who understood, yet the same God gave all the prophecies? Could you cite those sources please.  I really would like to know how we can prove that.

[eaglesway]

The lampstand in Zechariah is a menora.

One thing to remember is that there are two important injunctions in this book.

Blessed is the man who keeps the words of this book

If any man takes away from the words of this book may his name be taken out of the book of life.

Heavy.

Makes me wanna know- but not as in "know with my head", "figure it out", etc.

More like, makes me want to read periodically with an open heart, an open eye and an open ear.

We are so quick to put conclusve definitions to things that are still partially veiled. What if God will not show you some things until He is sure you can be trusted not to talk about them?(as Paul did in the third heaven)

How many of us could pass that test I wonder?

[Molly]

There are no formal quotations from the Old Testament, however there are many allusions. Bible students have found between 250-550 Old Testament allusions in the book of Revelation.


1. Revelation, like all Scripture, is "profitable" (2 Timothy 3:16).

2. Revelation reveals Jesus Christ like no other book (Revelation 1-22).

3. Revelation deals with "things, which must soon take place" (Revelation 1:1).

4. Revelation is the one book that promises a blessing to all who will read it (Revelation 1:3).

5. Revelation contains unique warnings and challenges to the church (Revelation 2:1-3:22).

6. Revelation discloses conditions that will be present in the end-times (Revelation 6:1-19:21).

7. Revelation is NOT to be sealed up (Revelation 22:10)



Christ In Revelation:

The faithful witness (1:5)
The firstborn from the dead (1:5)
The ruler over the kings of the earth (1:5)
The Son of Man (1:13)
The first and the last (1:17)
The living One (1:18)
The Son of God (2:18)
He who is holy, who is true (3:7)
The Amen (3:14)
The Beginning of the creation of God (3:14)
The Lion that is from the tribe of Judah (5:5)
The Root of David (5:5)
A Lamb (5:6)
The Word of God (19:13)
King of Kings and Lord of Lords (19:16)
The Alpha and the Omega (22:13)
The beginning and the end (22:13)
The bright morning Star (22:16)
The Lord Jesus (22:21).


http://bible.org/seriespage/book-revelation-overview