Did Jesus die

[Lazarus Short]

VB, Wyatt stretched my own credulity, but with God all things are possible, even a haploid human.  I only wanted to present that information for consideration by the membership.  Wyatt's find of the site of the Red Sea crossing is marked by pillars on either shore, set up by Solomon, stating that that was the place.  His find of Noah's ark is now a national park in Turkey.  The Ark of the Covenant find is very much in mystery, and not at all easily verified.  Time will tell.

[Molly]

It's a different body for sure.  But, I think he was given a special body to begin with; he has only one earthly parent.  Ordinarily, that would make him a clone, except he has two parents.

He was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but that is something that we could never be because the old wineskins that are these bodies of ours would burst--IMO.

PS He changes into his resurrected body before he dies, at the transfiguration.

So one could say that is the sort of thing that might happen at any point before the cross if he didn't control it.

Where do you get that Jesus changed into His resurrected body at the transfiguration? How was He crucified and killed dead on a cross if He was already in His resurrected body?

Jn 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

The scriptures say He was tempted in every way like as we are. The glory of His victory is that He overcame fron the same estate we are in. This is why we can mature into sonship by faith, because He did, and we are His disciples.

IMO Jesus was not the fulness of the Godhead until after He was resurrected, ascended and glorified- but even if He was, He was crucified as a man- no tricks, no "special edge"- just an obedient sacrifice, "taken form among men" to be our high priest (Hebrews 5).

Where do I get it?  I read it in the Bible.  [No, I just made it up for fun.]

Maybe your face shines like the sun.  Mine doesn't.

His transfiguration even affected his clothes.  So I assume it included his entire body.  The clothes are being changed by his internal radiance emanating from his body.

There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. [Mat 17:2]

Song of Solomon 6:10 Who is this that appears like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, majestic as the stars in procession?

and his clothes became dazzling white, far whiter than any earthly bleach could ever make them.  Mark 9:3

Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.

Luke 9:29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.



[And, he was ]

"transfigured" [before them]

G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-of'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.


It is my belief that he was allowing his disciples to see who he truly is at the transfiguration.

How was he crucified and killed dead?  He allowed it, that's how.


No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. Jn 10:18

[sheila]

that celestial body/place prepared for us to dwell in/raised a spiritual body..is indeed in allof us.

  Father can 'turn the light up" when He desires....Look at Moses..who had to put a veil

  on because of it 'frightening' the people.  And when He appears..we shall be just like Him.

    and how shall we all be just like Him?  for as all have bore the image of the corruptible..

   so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorruptible...it is sown a natural body and raised

   a spiritual body.   We are fearfully[in corrupt image] and wonderfully[incorruptible image]made

[marie glen]

Quote: "It is my belief that he was allowing his disciples to see who he truly is at the transfiguration."


I think I agree with that.. just before then, He had told His disciples some would see "the Kingdom" ..next thing is the transfiguration, when they didn't know what to say and the last line of the account "and they saw Jesus only".. Or and then there was Jesus only.. This to me goes along with psalm 2 where the Father says "this is the decree... ...the Son"

I don't think he had a corruptible body for He had no sin, no imperfection (which is the opposite of life/God). And I don't think any humans will be "glorified" until the 1st resurrection at His return, for it says "this mortal will 'put on' immortality" which to me also means, or includes, this im-perfect will 'put on' perfection. And "the corruptible will 'put on' incorruptible". [Incorruptible because until 'the change' we are still mortal, still imperfect, meaning with a degree of corruption or able to corrupt (imo, imperfect and imperfection).

[eaglesway]

I know you read the bible Molly, but there is no place in it that says Jesus received His glorified body at the mount of transfiguration. All the reasons you offer are just that, reasons and opinions- which was what we are here for so no problem. But I just think that is Christian religious mytholgy. Jesus died as a man. He offered Himself willingly but He was nevertheless murdered by cruel and wicked hands, put to death.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

IMO, Jesus died a human death and was then declared with power to be the son of God by the resurrection of the dead because He pleased God. His sharing our ignoble experience of life in the flesh and death is a major planck of the gospel message. He became fully like us so that we could become fully like Him. He wasnt like Hercules. He was limited to HUMANITY+FAITH+THE SPIRIT, just like we are, which is why He is able to function as our high priest and is the author of our eternal salvation and author &the finisher of our faith.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

IMO glorified bodies don't die. Glorified means eternal, immortal- as Jesus said, "Like the angels in heaven".

Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Heb 5:7,8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

[VineBranch]

IMO, Jesus died a human death and was then declared with power to be the son of God by the resurrection of the dead because He pleased God.

Eagle ... don't mean to stop your momentum here, but are you saying that Jesus somehow earned his godhood?

[marie glen]

...are you of the opinion Jesus existed with the Father before His 1st advent? (He prayed reveal to them the glory i had with you before.. Jn 17(?) I suppose His body was fallible/corruptible but not His nature/character..

[Molly]

I know you read the bible Molly, but there is no place in it that says Jesus received His glorified body at the mount of transfiguration. All the reasons you offer are just that, reasons and opinions- which was what we are here for so no problem. But I just think that is Christian religious mytholgy. Jesus died as a man. He offered Himself willingly but He was nevertheless murdered by cruel and wicked hands, put to death.

If what I said is Christian religious mythology, it's news to me.  Maybe what I said is molly mythology, but it is my opinion and mine alone.  I didn't take it from anyone else.  I thought I knew who Jesus was and then I started reading the Bible.  When I first saw the transfiguration, IT KNOCKED MY SOCKS OFF.  What was this?  Why had no one spoken about this in church?   Has anyone ever been to a church where they gave a sermon on the transfiguration?  I've never even heard one such sermon.  People don't seem to know how to deal with it.

I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

IMO, this is not the same as Moses having the shechinah when he comes down the mountain from talking to God.  Jesus is the self existant one.  He is God.

More molly mythology:  Yes Jesus died as a man but it was because he choose to and because he humbled himself.   If I kneel down to talk to a toddler in a hushed voice, it does not mean I cannot also stand up, tower over him, and shout.  It means I have come down to his level by choice.  Now it may be that I find I have to learn some patience and do a lot more of this until the toddler is through the terrible twos, but it will still be by my choice.  It doesn't mean I have suddenly turned into a midget who can only talk baby talk.


And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  Phil 2:8



Yes, Marie, I agree he existed with the Father before his birth, if that is what you are asking.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.



[14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

--John 1

[VineBranch]

I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

[Molly]

I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

[VineBranch]

I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

Ah, thanks, that makes more sense to me, sorry to be so slow.

[Lazarus Short]

It sometimes (like right now) surprises me how people on this forum can go confidently right to the edge of some theological (or even theo-illogical) issue which normal clergy will dismiss as "Well, that's a mystery..."

[VineBranch]

Well, that's a mystery Laz.

[Lazarus Short]

I didn't know you were a clergyman, VB.  :laughing7:

[VineBranch]

I didn't know you were a clergyman, VB.  :laughing7:

Put em up!! :laugh:

[Lazarus Short]

I didn't know you were a clergyman, VB.  :laughing7:

Put em up!! :laugh:

Why?  Because you're going to rob me??  Now I KNOW you're clergy... :doh:

[VineBranch]

Why?  Because you're going to rob me??  Now I KNOW you're clergy... :doh:

I thought I would simply take everything away.  Then when you were starving and cold, I would give a piece of bread so you could see how concerned I am for your welfare.  Don't hate me because I love you too much to let you starve.

[Lazarus Short]

Thank you for the crust of bread, sir!  Can I have another?

[VineBranch]

Thank you for the crust of bread, sir!  Can I have another?

Nope.  You'll abuse it and then think yourself worthy of the bread.  I decide when you eat.   Now leave me alone, I'm ever so important you know.

[Molly]

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

--John 1




He that cometh after me is

"preferred" [before me]

G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.



hoti ēn prōtos mou





"for he"
G3754
οτι
hoti
hot'-ee
Neuter of G3748 as conjugation; demonstrative that (sometimes redundant); causatively because: - as concerning that, as though, because (that), for (that), how (that), (in) that, though, why.


"was"

G2258
nν
ēn
ane
Imperfect of G1510; I (thou, etc.) was (wast or were): - + agree, be, X have (+ charge of), hold, use, was (-t), were.


"before"

G4413
πρωτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.


"me"

G3450
μου
mou
moo
The simpler from of G1700; of me: - I, me, mine (own), my.

[reFORMer]

Maybe what I said is molly mythology...

That would be "Mollyology" (folly dolly, by goof 'n' by gooly, jolly Mollyology!)

[eaglesway]

I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

I don't think so, I hate to repeat myself, but IMO He overcame as a man and that is the glory of His cross. :o)

[ded2daworld]

But a man that had continuos, immediate access to his Father. Con tinuos fellowship with the creator of the universe until the cross.
...and a man born of sinless blood.

[eaglesway]

Absolutely He had access, just like we do(after we are born of God), through the Spirit of God. His "sinlessness" made His access much greater than ours- but, and again I am only stating my opinion, to me the scriptures show that he overcame through obedience to God with-in all the limitations of humanity. Only thus is He an appropriate high priest. He was not like Hercules or some kind of hybrid man. He was a righteous man born of God.  The idea that he was not tempted, did not suffer from the slings and arrows of the rejection of His people, did not get indigestion, etc.- to me that is all stained glass pictorials from orthodox Christian myths.

I do not believe Jesus was super-man just barely holding Himself back form flexing His might every day.

He rose early. He prayed Himself full of that which He had spent in ministry from His human frame in weakness and in tears, weeping working, laughing- sometimes yelling and rebuking. He was a man who subjected all His passions to His love for His Father and for all of us.

[VineBranch]

K, Eagle, you've convinced me:  I'm about as stupid as they come.  I don't wish to offer any disrespect; I honestly don't understand.  Maybe there is a Dummies book I could check.  I just don't get it.

(a) "...to me the scriptures show that he overcame through obedience to God with-in all the limitations of humanity. Only thus is He an appropriate high priest."

I asked you before if Christ earned His godhood.  Now I need to ask, did Christ earn his priesthood?  Is He not worthy to be an appropriate high priest because He is God?  Did I miss it again?

(b) "He was a righteous man born of God."

Does that mean He wasn't God as well?  Paul said there was none righteous, so if he was righteous would he have had to be God?

(c) "I do not believe Jesus was super-man just barely holding Himself back form flexing His might every day."

(d) "He prayed Himself full of that which He had spent in ministry from His human frame in weakness and in tears, weeping working, laughing- sometimes yelling and rebuking."

If he was so mighty he had to hold himself back, how come he got spent during the day he was holding himself back from flexing His might?