Near Death Experiences

[Captain.Theophilus]

Has anyone else studied these? I think they are to some degree scientific, although of course you have to allow for the people who aren't being honest. If even 50% of them are true there are still trends which are way too common in them to be dismissed.  :Chinscratch:

Some people seem to experience hell, some heaven.

Many people get saved out of hell (supporting UR) while others seem to remain.

Not everyone meets Jesus, although many do. Some people meet a "light, warm love." Many non-Christians seem to wind up in a good place upon death, not a bad place. Hindus have been reported as having experiences reflecting their particular cultural/religious paradigm, while western NDEs seem consistent with ours.  :dontknow:

http://www.near-death.com/ has lists and lists of scientific studies done on NDEs.

I'm definitely not a relativist, or a deconstructionist as I hate both. However the scientific evidence is out there that this is what people seem to be experiencing upon death. How do we fit this into our Christian faith?  :eek:

[ded2daworld]

IMO,  :Peace2:"It is appointed unto men, ONCE, to die..."
Everyone's experience seems to coincide with their cultural upbringing or belief.
"The dead know nothing..." so since by these 2 biblical quotes the persons weren't TRULY dead, what they see is pretty much irrelevant.
Personally, I was clinically dead for 4 minutes.(no heartbeat) REALLY dead is no brain waves. If there are no brain waves, the person can't be knowing or seeing or experiencing anything... and a really dead person will not know anything until they are resurrected for the judgment. :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

No ded, REALLY dead means putrefaction.

IMO, NDE's are simply terminal euphoria, and are theologically meaningless.

[Captain.Theophilus]

I find what both of you said to be more likely, but I have a hard time dismissing them so easily on a couple of factors:

1) A good number of NDEs (I'm telling you thousands have been recorded) have been after riggor mortis has set in, waking up in a mortuary with a tag on their foot.

2) Many people who were living horrible lives became Christians after their experience and turned their life around. :rolllol:

3) Most experiences seem to affirm a God who's completely loving as we do, a view of heaven that is makes more sense than pearly gates, and a the feeling of complete and total love that all of us want. :banana:

Most people also report the experiences being more "real" than real life. I've done quite a bit of hallucinatory substances before Christ found me :doh: Even when you are completely absorbed in the euphoric, chemical induced experience you never feel "more real" you always feel less real.

It's just not that easy for me to dismiss them, even though I want to. :dontknow:

[Lazarus Short]

I found this on rense.com this morning, but can't vouch for all it says:

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/02/09/near-death-experiences-explained-by-quantum-physicists/

[ded2daworld]

My point is, a person doesn't grow closer to God by someone else's experience. The message of the NDE (if there is one) is a message for that person. Just as the Jews were told, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." That was a message for them. If christians went around killing all those jnowadays that think they are witches or warlocks there would be a lot of people killed and non-christians would think even less of us than they do now.
An NDE or any experience a person has, is that persons experience. It may be from God or it may be from someone other than God. If it conflicts with the Bible - OUT. If it agrees with the Bible - IN. If it doesn't seem to agree or disagree with the Bible, it's extraneous - kinda like the apocrypha- Sounds good but nothing life changing.

[Lazarus Short]

"Death Dreams" might be a better term, and bring the (near-death) experiences into better focus.

[misszoolander]

My point is, a person doesn't grow closer to God by someone else's experience. The message of the NDE (if there is one) is a message for that person. Just as the Jews were told, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." That was a message for them. If christians went around killing all those jnowadays that think they are witches or warlocks there would be a lot of people killed and non-christians would think even less of us than they do now.
An NDE or any experience a person has, is that persons experience. It may be from God or it may be from someone other than God. If it conflicts with the Bible - OUT. If it agrees with the Bible - IN. If it doesn't seem to agree or disagree with the Bible, it's extraneous - kinda like the apocrypha- Sounds good but nothing life changing.

I agree,
It is pretty dangerous when we take other peoples revelations on board, and try to apply what they experienced to our own lives. There was a member on here who was talking to me about "Jellyfish man" Ian Mcormack. He experienced what he calls a NDE (experienced heaven and hell etc) from God and now he has his own ministry. I checked him out when this certain member was talking about how moving and true his NDE was.  Unfortunately a quick Google check confirmed that his story is full of contradictions. I tried to encourage this member to research Ian, but unfortunately he was too emotionally bound to Ian's story that there was hardly any use persuading him.

I honestly must admit that I can not base my beliefs on what other people experience, I must put the word above everything else. If someone has a NDE, good for them, as for me I must do things the hard way  :Peace2:

[Captain.Theophilus]

Wow, great replies everyone thank you so much for all the feedback!! :banana:

I haven't had many people to bounce ideas off of lately (especially about Christianity) because most of the Christians I know are only capable of giving me canned answers that everyone's heard that don't answer the question.  :dunno2:

I don't have a ton of emotional attachment to many NDEs. I definitely don't "integrate" them into my life as a theology or anything, because there are so many contradictions you couldn't do so without just deconstructing everything in the process.

To be honest I want it to be true because a lot of it sounds fun and I want life after death to be like that. I never feel as intimate with Jesus as I want to be and these people seem to experience his love in a powerful way and I be jealous  :doh:

Also it's an attempt to explain what happened to the multitudes of people who died before Judaism/Christianity existed, it's kind of cathartic for me.

Jesus is realer to me than anything else sometimes, and yet I still have a ton of doubt. I think it's because of  the number of disagreements within the Church. I mean we can't even agree on what communion is without killing each other. Most of us are just like the pharisees, and turn the life into a list of rules and miss the entire gospel because our rules are just a veil that blinds us. I've suffered a lot at the hands of pharisees and sometimes I wonder if I know Jesus as well as I think I do.

Before I went to Bible school I thought my little niche of Christianity was all there is. Baptist, arminian, rapture, free-will, and a list of rules. I got saved when I was 13 and lived like that for a while. Then I went to Bible school. The first two years were great and I grew a ton. The second two (spent  at a different school) were some of the worst of my life. If there's one thing that I learned from Church history, it's that none of us have agreed on anything ever. Beliefs that are taken as sacred today *case-in-point: ET* were not held by much of the church for many many centuries, while many beliefs that were held by the Church are forgotten. Then there's denomination to denomination. In total there are 41,000 denominations according to a study done at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.

But even if we just take the 20 major denominations lutheran, anglican, presbyterian, catholic, etc... still none of us can agree on almost anything, and all of us thinks the other is going to Hell for some belief that is held. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm starting to doubt the Bible. And the reason for that is I've seen 5 different meanings pulled from the same passage and all of them make sense.

How are we supposed to find a hermeneutic that accurately interprets the Bible? Is it good enough to follow suit with everyone else and just insist that our way is best? Or is there a chance we are missing something? So when it comes to an NDE, it almost seems like a more reliable source than the Bible because the Bible has been such cause for disagreement. But the Bible also must be assumed to be the Word of God, which means if you disagree with something you could be disagreeing with God's word (scary) whereas with an NDE if you disregard someone's experience you don't risk being thrown in hell for not believing the right thing.

I want to trust God's word as much as I have been raised to, but the mass of disagreement has hurt my love of it a lot.

[sheila]

I want to share with you an expierence a frien of mine had. She was raised Catholic.She left the c church

in her 20's. Her brother and sister tell her she is not saved because she left Cath church.  Her ex-husband

who deserted her is a born-again church type..that tells her she is not saved..because she doesn't belong

to his protestant church down in Fla..of which her daughter also joined and both tell her she is going to hell.


   She studied with Jehovah's wittness..but didn't measure up to their criteria,and never got baptized..she

  gets eternal death from them. She has a pentecostal friend she also goes to church with occaSIONALLY..

  BUT,ALAS SHE WEARS SLACKS AND CUTS HER HAIR OCCASIONALLY..She tells her she is not saved

  and will burn in hell. She needs to wear a dress and not cut her hair

  I tell her about the salvation of all mankind and she gets blown about in every

direction by the all mentioned above..and keeps saying..but...but..so and so says.......for years
...

    About 2 yrs ago she got real sick..and put in hospital...Jesus come to see her..and told her the next time

  He come to see her..He would come to take her with Him. She called me and told me of her expierence.

  how her heart had stopped....

    Afew weaks later,she was on the hair and slacks thing and worrying etc..due to speaking with friend

who is pentecostal[she prays,reads her bible,,is very timid and not a mean bone in her]  I asked her...

   'Friend,what do you want Him to do,didn't He tell you He would be back for you?" Who are you going to

  to believe?  Did He tell you that you better have a dress on when He comes?" Don't you think if it was that

  important He would have been sure to tell you" he agreed..she would believe Him,that she was saved

and accepted of Him and loved

    This was her NDE....I'm glad HE visited her!!!!!!!

[eaglesway]

That's beautiful, and thank God she has a friend who can bear witness to the truth of the gospel so that the seed of her NDE can become a beautiful tree instead of being snatched up by some religious devil ;o)

[VineBranch]

I want to trust God's word as much as I have been raised to, but the mass of disagreement has hurt my love of it a lot.

Then maybe CT, if you are of a mind, put it down for a while and go for a walk with your dad.  You could maybe share a sunset, play with a puppy, eat too much chocolate (if that's possible) and above all, tell Him you love Him.  Then pick up His book and ask Him to show you the parts He likes for you.  Just a thought.

[micah7:9]

Believe the Bible ...... listen to hear. :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

I can't see clearly till I close my eyes

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[VineBranch]

I can't see clearly till I close my eyes

Truly words to live by.

[eaglesway]

"He will judge not by what His eyes see or what His ears hear, but with righteousness He will judge the nations"

[dajomaco]

Reply #5
My point is, a person doesn't grow closer to God by someone else's experience.

IMOAH
This is one of the most important points,
we can learn from our brothers and sisters.
God has relationship with you.
You alone are here discerning with God.
You alone are learning how to Love God.
How to love family while being loved of God.
How to love the lost while being loved by God.

When I have no peace it has something to do with me and God.
When I have peace I want the world to know God.

[Rich]

Captain T., I think I hear you brother.  If am wrong, apologize for real.  For me, so just one little very fallible person's thoughts, during these times in particular, do one thing and one thing only. 
First, to say this Bible is important is understatement.  Also, to say what you state as far as battles (for real battles, grotesque and with extremely real carnage) regarding doctrine and interpretation is beyond a turn off for me.  It sickens me.  That is men though and not God.  This is why, to this point, the brothers and sisters who participate on this forum are so refreshing and strengthening.  Disagreement seems to this point to be handled as if Love is accepted.
Do what Jesus Himself did, often.  Remove yourself and go pray and go talk and if must, wrestle.  This is best way for me to remove from intellectual and self talk to Something that is real, feeling as it is, real.  If religion is binding to God, Christianity also makes better intellectual case than others in that once you remove yourself from forums and fundies, The Word Himself permits questioning, in my opinion.  So brother, question, go to God and scream and cry and pray and talk.  Have a grand time of it.  The only other thing will add on this perhaps unsolicited diatribe is sometimes will type out four or five versus that are important at time, and during this time with God, will meditate on them.  Sometimes getting away from all the chatter and other's interpretations and spending time with Him makes all of the difference. 
Hope I did not miss the mark but please take great care regardless,
Rich

[marcmarc]

I've studied NDES for a number of years.  Theres a lot of false stuff out there as you said, and a lot of real stuff.
They have been reported for thousands of years in all cultures from everything from neuroscientists to soldiers and all say pretty much the same things, although each person interprets them differently based on their own beliefs. 
For example, someone might see a man in a white robe and think of him simply as that, some might believe that was Jesus, others someone else.
The fact is that the experience was real for them and relevant to them and the 'heart' or message of the nde was the same...Or the 'spirit' of what happened to them.  It's no wonder then everyone has their own unique experience in many ways.  There wouldnt be much point in showing me a cat in an nde because im allergic to them lol, but to someone else, seeing a cat could be a sign of something sacred or might be an old pet etc. 
They say that they enter 'infinity' a timeless domain, so in a way we are always there to start out with, only our consciousness expands when we leave this 'realm' of reality.  That also means that whether we are dead for 1 second or 1 year, its the same thing, its timeless, so if there is any 'judgement day' its happening now, or at least will happen 'in the blink of an eye' when we pass over, because there's no time.

Again, everyone has their own beliefs...even about this stuff, so i think it just boils down to honestly doing the research on it and making up one's own mind.  The Bible says lots of things, and the quotes i commonly see from Christians to 'refute' ndes usually come from bible books like Ecclesiastes where the 'dead know not nothing' blah blah blah.  Yet, they fail to see that the 'teacher' in Ecclesiastes got most of what he said wrong to start with...He was a normal guy, looking at life as a normal person would...."lifes like chasing the wind, you work, you die, so be happy", type of mentality.  But of course Christians quote whatever parts of the bible suits them usually without reading things in context.

"Meaningless! Meaningless!"
    says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
    Everything is meaningless."

When would Jesus ever have said such a thing?

The teacher in ecclesiastes said What is crooked cannot be straightened;
    what is lacking cannot be counted.  Jesus said the rough ways will be made smooth etc etc.
In other words, there are contradictions here.  The Bible was never meant to be read in the way most folks read it. (Making it say what they want it to say), it has to be taken as a whole, and using our brains we can distinguish the true meaning.
The teacher in ecclesiastes says wisdom is meaningless.  Elsewhere in the bible we are told to seek wisdom etc etc.  You get the idea.

Millions of people have had NDE'S.  I for one am a believer and i dont see any contradiction with them and with the bible when its read as it should be read, as a whole and in context.

[eaglesway]

When it comes to dreams, prophecies, NDEs and other "spiritual experiences" there are tests, and we are taught to test them in several ways.

1) By the word of God, do they agree with "the spirit of the word" as well as the letter.

2)Do they agree with each other? The author of confusion will send many "messages" and they don;'t eve agree with each other, much less the word and the Spirit.

3)What is the witness of the people we trust when we share it, in other words, will it survive the test of the Body.(Let the prophets speak two or three, let the others discern, all may prophesy that all may learn and be edified.

4)What is the fruit that grows from the seed.

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
(Jas 3:13-18)

NDEs that "prove hell" are from Satan. Spiritual experiences, dreams and prophecies that exalt the receiver of them and enrich that person are also, generally, from the enemy- or at least, if they were given by God, have been corrupted and misused for the glory of the receiver.

I have seen supernatural works, healings, casting out of demons, visions, prophecies, etc.- that I know(in myself) were legitimate . I have seen a whole lot more that were phony, or being used to exalt men.

I once said, "Its a good thing when I was young that I was never led to spit in some dirt and pat it on someones blind eyes and then see their sight restored, because I would have gone out immediately and got me 1,000 little vials, spit in each one of them, filled them with some 'holy water', taped them to little bags of dirt, and sold them on TV for a love offering of 50 dollars, wrote a book called "The Eye Opening Anointing" and spent the rest of my days filling up the cup of my iniquity."

This mind you, is an exageration ad a joke- but IMO there is a lot of truth in it.

[VineBranch]

Why are they called 'near death experiences' if the person actually died.  Are they hedging their bets that the person didn't really die?  Do we say near death because intuitively we know dead is dead, and coming back is resurrection and that opens a really big kettle of fish?  We don't have any problem saying Lazarus was dead and he rose.  How come we have to make this so euphemistic?

[eaglesway]

Mostly they are called near death experiences because they only nearly died, like out for a minute or 15 minutes or whatever.

Lazarus was in the grave for four days- baby dats dead, like really mortified, nearly decomposed- thats  Dead Experienced :o)

[VineBranch]

Okay, it's probably wording then.  When I read "I was dead for ten miniutes", it means I was 'out'?

[eaglesway]

details, details :o)   All I am saying is, if someone is dead for 4 days I would be more inclined to weigh their NDE than ignore it.