Has anyone else studied these? I think they are to some degree scientific, although of course you have to allow for the people who aren't being honest. If even 50% of them are true there are still trends which are way too common in them to be dismissed. :Chinscratch:
Some people seem to experience hell, some heaven.
Many people get saved out of hell (supporting UR) while others seem to remain.
Not everyone meets Jesus, although many do. Some people meet a "light, warm love." Many non-Christians seem to wind up in a good place upon death, not a bad place. Hindus have been reported as having experiences reflecting their particular cultural/religious paradigm, while western NDEs seem consistent with ours. :dontknow:
http://www.near-death.com/ has lists and lists of scientific studies done on NDEs.
I'm definitely not a relativist, or a deconstructionist as I hate both. However the scientific evidence is out there that this is what people seem to be experiencing upon death. How do we fit this into our Christian faith? :eek:
IMO, :Peace2:"It is appointed unto men, ONCE, to die..."
Everyone's experience seems to coincide with their cultural upbringing or belief.
"The dead know nothing..." so since by these 2 biblical quotes the persons weren't TRULY dead, what they see is pretty much irrelevant.
Personally, I was clinically dead for 4 minutes.(no heartbeat) REALLY dead is no brain waves. If there are no brain waves, the person can't be knowing or seeing or experiencing anything... and a really dead person will not know anything until they are resurrected for the judgment. :2c:
No ded, REALLY dead means putrefaction.
IMO, NDE's are simply terminal euphoria, and are theologically meaningless.
I find what both of you said to be more likely, but I have a hard time dismissing them so easily on a couple of factors:
1) A good number of NDEs (I'm telling you thousands have been recorded) have been after riggor mortis has set in, waking up in a mortuary with a tag on their foot.
2) Many people who were living horrible lives became Christians after their experience and turned their life around. :rolllol:
3) Most experiences seem to affirm a God who's completely loving as we do, a view of heaven that is makes more sense than pearly gates, and a the feeling of complete and total love that all of us want. :banana:
Most people also report the experiences being more "real" than real life. I've done quite a bit of hallucinatory substances before Christ found me :doh: Even when you are completely absorbed in the euphoric, chemical induced experience you never feel "more real" you always feel less real.
It's just not that easy for me to dismiss them, even though I want to. :dontknow:
I found this on rense.com this morning, but can't vouch for all it says:
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/02/09/near-death-experiences-explained-by-quantum-physicists/
My point is, a person doesn't grow closer to God by someone else's experience. The message of the NDE (if there is one) is a message for that person. Just as the Jews were told, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." That was a message for them. If christians went around killing all those jnowadays that think they are witches or warlocks there would be a lot of people killed and non-christians would think even less of us than they do now.
An NDE or any experience a person has, is that persons experience. It may be from God or it may be from someone other than God. If it conflicts with the Bible - OUT. If it agrees with the Bible - IN. If it doesn't seem to agree or disagree with the Bible, it's extraneous - kinda like the apocrypha- Sounds good but nothing life changing.
"Death Dreams" might be a better term, and bring the (near-death) experiences into better focus.
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 12, 2013, 07:01:10 PM
My point is, a person doesn't grow closer to God by someone else's experience. The message of the NDE (if there is one) is a message for that person. Just as the Jews were told, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." That was a message for them. If christians went around killing all those jnowadays that think they are witches or warlocks there would be a lot of people killed and non-christians would think even less of us than they do now.
An NDE or any experience a person has, is that persons experience. It may be from God or it may be from someone other than God. If it conflicts with the Bible - OUT. If it agrees with the Bible - IN. If it doesn't seem to agree or disagree with the Bible, it's extraneous - kinda like the apocrypha- Sounds good but nothing life changing.
I agree,
It is pretty dangerous when we take other peoples revelations on board, and try to apply what they experienced to our own lives. There was a member on here who was talking to me about "Jellyfish man" Ian Mcormack. He experienced what he calls a NDE (experienced heaven and hell etc) from God and now he has his own ministry. I checked him out when this certain member was talking about how moving and true his NDE was. Unfortunately a quick Google check confirmed that his story is full of contradictions. I tried to encourage this member to research Ian, but unfortunately he was too emotionally bound to Ian's story that there was hardly any use persuading him.
I honestly must admit that I can not base my beliefs on what other people experience, I must put the word above everything else. If someone has a NDE, good for them, as for me I must do things the hard way :Peace2:
Wow, great replies everyone thank you so much for all the feedback!! :banana:
I haven't had many people to bounce ideas off of lately (especially about Christianity) because most of the Christians I know are only capable of giving me canned answers that everyone's heard that don't answer the question. :dunno2:
I don't have a ton of emotional attachment to many NDEs. I definitely don't "integrate" them into my life as a theology or anything, because there are so many contradictions you couldn't do so without just deconstructing everything in the process.
To be honest I want it to be true because a lot of it sounds fun and I want life after death to be like that. I never feel as intimate with Jesus as I want to be and these people seem to experience his love in a powerful way and I be jealous :doh:
Also it's an attempt to explain what happened to the multitudes of people who died before Judaism/Christianity existed, it's kind of cathartic for me.
Jesus is realer to me than anything else sometimes, and yet I still have a ton of doubt. I think it's because of the number of disagreements within the Church. I mean we can't even agree on what communion is without killing each other. Most of us are just like the pharisees, and turn the life into a list of rules and miss the entire gospel because our rules are just a veil that blinds us. I've suffered a lot at the hands of pharisees and sometimes I wonder if I know Jesus as well as I think I do.
Before I went to Bible school I thought my little niche of Christianity was all there is. Baptist, arminian, rapture, free-will, and a list of rules. I got saved when I was 13 and lived like that for a while. Then I went to Bible school. The first two years were great and I grew a ton. The second two (spent at a different school) were some of the worst of my life. If there's one thing that I learned from Church history, it's that none of us have agreed on anything ever. Beliefs that are taken as sacred today *case-in-point: ET* were not held by much of the church for many many centuries, while many beliefs that were held by the Church are forgotten. Then there's denomination to denomination. In total there are 41,000 denominations according to a study done at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
But even if we just take the 20 major denominations lutheran, anglican, presbyterian, catholic, etc... still none of us can agree on almost anything, and all of us thinks the other is going to Hell for some belief that is held. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm starting to doubt the Bible. And the reason for that is I've seen 5 different meanings pulled from the same passage and all of them make sense.
How are we supposed to find a hermeneutic that accurately interprets the Bible? Is it good enough to follow suit with everyone else and just insist that our way is best? Or is there a chance we are missing something? So when it comes to an NDE, it almost seems like a more reliable source than the Bible because the Bible has been such cause for disagreement. But the Bible also must be assumed to be the Word of God, which means if you disagree with something you could be disagreeing with God's word (scary) whereas with an NDE if you disregard someone's experience you don't risk being thrown in hell for not believing the right thing.
I want to trust God's word as much as I have been raised to, but the mass of disagreement has hurt my love of it a lot.
I want to share with you an expierence a frien of mine had. She was raised Catholic.She left the c church
in her 20's. Her brother and sister tell her she is not saved because she left Cath church. Her ex-husband
who deserted her is a born-again church type..that tells her she is not saved..because she doesn't belong
to his protestant church down in Fla..of which her daughter also joined and both tell her she is going to hell.
She studied with Jehovah's wittness..but didn't measure up to their criteria,and never got baptized..she
gets eternal death from them. She has a pentecostal friend she also goes to church with occaSIONALLY..
BUT,ALAS SHE WEARS SLACKS AND CUTS HER HAIR OCCASIONALLY..She tells her she is not saved
and will burn in hell. She needs to wear a dress and not cut her hair
I tell her about the salvation of all mankind and she gets blown about in every
direction by the all mentioned above..and keeps saying..but...but..so and so says.......for years
...
About 2 yrs ago she got real sick..and put in hospital...Jesus come to see her..and told her the next time
He come to see her..He would come to take her with Him. She called me and told me of her expierence.
how her heart had stopped....
Afew weaks later,she was on the hair and slacks thing and worrying etc..due to speaking with friend
who is pentecostal[she prays,reads her bible,,is very timid and not a mean bone in her] I asked her...
'Friend,what do you want Him to do,didn't He tell you He would be back for you?" Who are you going to
to believe? Did He tell you that you better have a dress on when He comes?" Don't you think if it was that
important He would have been sure to tell you" he agreed..she would believe Him,that she was saved
and accepted of Him and loved
This was her NDE....I'm glad HE visited her!!!!!!!
That's beautiful, and thank God she has a friend who can bear witness to the truth of the gospel so that the seed of her NDE can become a beautiful tree instead of being snatched up by some religious devil ;o)
Quote from: Captain.Theophilus on February 12, 2013, 10:45:45 PM
I want to trust God's word as much as I have been raised to, but the mass of disagreement has hurt my love of it a lot.
Then maybe CT, if you are of a mind, put it down for a while and go for a walk with your dad. You could maybe share a sunset, play with a puppy, eat too much chocolate (if that's possible) and above all, tell Him you love Him. Then pick up
His book and ask Him to show you the parts He likes for you. Just a thought.
Believe the Bible ...... listen to hear. :dsunny:
I can't see clearly till I close my eyes
:dsunny:
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 13, 2013, 03:15:04 PM
I can't see clearly till I close my eyes
Truly words to live by.
"He will judge not by what His eyes see or what His ears hear, but with righteousness He will judge the nations"
Reply #5
My point is, a person doesn't grow closer to God by someone else's experience.
IMOAH
This is one of the most important points,
we can learn from our brothers and sisters.
God has relationship with you.
You alone are here discerning with God.
You alone are learning how to Love God.
How to love family while being loved of God.
How to love the lost while being loved by God.
When I have no peace it has something to do with me and God.
When I have peace I want the world to know God.
Captain T., I think I hear you brother. If am wrong, apologize for real. For me, so just one little very fallible person's thoughts, during these times in particular, do one thing and one thing only.
First, to say this Bible is important is understatement. Also, to say what you state as far as battles (for real battles, grotesque and with extremely real carnage) regarding doctrine and interpretation is beyond a turn off for me. It sickens me. That is men though and not God. This is why, to this point, the brothers and sisters who participate on this forum are so refreshing and strengthening. Disagreement seems to this point to be handled as if Love is accepted.
Do what Jesus Himself did, often. Remove yourself and go pray and go talk and if must, wrestle. This is best way for me to remove from intellectual and self talk to Something that is real, feeling as it is, real. If religion is binding to God, Christianity also makes better intellectual case than others in that once you remove yourself from forums and fundies, The Word Himself permits questioning, in my opinion. So brother, question, go to God and scream and cry and pray and talk. Have a grand time of it. The only other thing will add on this perhaps unsolicited diatribe is sometimes will type out four or five versus that are important at time, and during this time with God, will meditate on them. Sometimes getting away from all the chatter and other's interpretations and spending time with Him makes all of the difference.
Hope I did not miss the mark but please take great care regardless,
Rich
I've studied NDES for a number of years. Theres a lot of false stuff out there as you said, and a lot of real stuff.
They have been reported for thousands of years in all cultures from everything from neuroscientists to soldiers and all say pretty much the same things, although each person interprets them differently based on their own beliefs.
For example, someone might see a man in a white robe and think of him simply as that, some might believe that was Jesus, others someone else.
The fact is that the experience was real for them and relevant to them and the 'heart' or message of the nde was the same...Or the 'spirit' of what happened to them. It's no wonder then everyone has their own unique experience in many ways. There wouldnt be much point in showing me a cat in an nde because im allergic to them lol, but to someone else, seeing a cat could be a sign of something sacred or might be an old pet etc.
They say that they enter 'infinity' a timeless domain, so in a way we are always there to start out with, only our consciousness expands when we leave this 'realm' of reality. That also means that whether we are dead for 1 second or 1 year, its the same thing, its timeless, so if there is any 'judgement day' its happening now, or at least will happen 'in the blink of an eye' when we pass over, because there's no time.
Again, everyone has their own beliefs...even about this stuff, so i think it just boils down to honestly doing the research on it and making up one's own mind. The Bible says lots of things, and the quotes i commonly see from Christians to 'refute' ndes usually come from bible books like Ecclesiastes where the 'dead know not nothing' blah blah blah. Yet, they fail to see that the 'teacher' in Ecclesiastes got most of what he said wrong to start with...He was a normal guy, looking at life as a normal person would...."lifes like chasing the wind, you work, you die, so be happy", type of mentality. But of course Christians quote whatever parts of the bible suits them usually without reading things in context.
"Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."
When would Jesus ever have said such a thing?
The teacher in ecclesiastes said What is crooked cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted. Jesus said the rough ways will be made smooth etc etc.
In other words, there are contradictions here. The Bible was never meant to be read in the way most folks read it. (Making it say what they want it to say), it has to be taken as a whole, and using our brains we can distinguish the true meaning.
The teacher in ecclesiastes says wisdom is meaningless. Elsewhere in the bible we are told to seek wisdom etc etc. You get the idea.
Millions of people have had NDE'S. I for one am a believer and i dont see any contradiction with them and with the bible when its read as it should be read, as a whole and in context.
When it comes to dreams, prophecies, NDEs and other "spiritual experiences" there are tests, and we are taught to test them in several ways.
1) By the word of God, do they agree with "the spirit of the word" as well as the letter.
2)Do they agree with each other? The author of confusion will send many "messages" and they don;'t eve agree with each other, much less the word and the Spirit.
3)What is the witness of the people we trust when we share it, in other words, will it survive the test of the Body.(Let the prophets speak two or three, let the others discern, all may prophesy that all may learn and be edified.
4)What is the fruit that grows from the seed.
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
(Jas 3:13-18)
NDEs that "prove hell" are from Satan. Spiritual experiences, dreams and prophecies that exalt the receiver of them and enrich that person are also, generally, from the enemy- or at least, if they were given by God, have been corrupted and misused for the glory of the receiver.
I have seen supernatural works, healings, casting out of demons, visions, prophecies, etc.- that I know(in myself) were legitimate . I have seen a whole lot more that were phony, or being used to exalt men.
I once said, "Its a good thing when I was young that I was never led to spit in some dirt and pat it on someones blind eyes and then see their sight restored, because I would have gone out immediately and got me 1,000 little vials, spit in each one of them, filled them with some 'holy water', taped them to little bags of dirt, and sold them on TV for a love offering of 50 dollars, wrote a book called "The Eye Opening Anointing" and spent the rest of my days filling up the cup of my iniquity."
This mind you, is an exageration ad a joke- but IMO there is a lot of truth in it.
Why are they called 'near death experiences' if the person actually died. Are they hedging their bets that the person didn't really die? Do we say near death because intuitively we know dead is dead, and coming back is resurrection and that opens a really big kettle of fish? We don't have any problem saying Lazarus was dead and he rose. How come we have to make this so euphemistic?
Mostly they are called near death experiences because they only nearly died, like out for a minute or 15 minutes or whatever.
Lazarus was in the grave for four days- baby dats dead, like really mortified, nearly decomposed- thats Dead Experienced :o)
Okay, it's probably wording then. When I read "I was dead for ten miniutes", it means I was 'out'?
details, details :o) All I am saying is, if someone is dead for 4 days I would be more inclined to weigh their NDE than ignore it.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2013, 08:09:01 AM
details, details :o) All I am saying is, if someone is dead for 4 days I would be more inclined to weigh their NDE than ignore it.
Me too..!
Does anyone know of anyone in this modern age that has been dead for so long? And came back with a NDE?
I wonder if Lazarus (not the parable) had a NDE?
Quote from: misszoolander on February 16, 2013, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2013, 08:09:01 AM
details, details :o) All I am saying is, if someone is dead for 4 days I would be more inclined to weigh their NDE than ignore it.
Me too..!
Does anyone know of anyone in this modern age that has been dead for so long? And came back with a NDE?
I wonder if Lazarus (not the parable) had a NDE?
I bet he did, but I wonder if he was allowed to talk about it :o) Paul was caught up into the thrid heaven and heard things "unlawful to utter", in other words- too wonderful for us to hear :o)
If Lazarus was NEAR DEAD, then Jesus pulled a fast one. Should Lazarus have been near dead, then I would guess we, all of mankind will be just near dead and Jesus himself was just near dead so we read Joh 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been(near) dead, whom he raised from the(near) dead.
Paul was caught up to the third heaven(a lofty, high place) to receive revelation(imo) but Paul did not become dead or near dead, or am I missing something? :dsunny:
You're not missing a thing Micah :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 16, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
If Lazarus was NEAR DEAD, then Jesus pulled a fast one. Should Lazarus have been near dead, then I would guess we, all of mankind will be just near dead and Jesus himself was just near dead so we read Joh 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been(near) dead, whom he raised from the(near) dead.
Paul was caught up to the third heaven(a lofty, high place) to receive revelation(imo) but Paul did not become dead or near dead, or am I missing something? :dsunny:
Yea, I wasnt saying Lazarus had an NDE. He had a DE. NDE's don't impress me much. Its the DE's that I might take a little closer look at....but I still start out skeptical.
Might it help if we tightened up our definition of death a bit? Maybe there is something inherently ambiguous in the notion that four days is dead, half and hour isn't. Then we could all agree on what it was we were looking at and have some common ground for the discussion.
Death is progressive:
you stop moving and/or breathing
your heart stops
your brain activity ceases
putrefaction sets in
"you" becomes dust/dirt
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 17, 2013, 11:48:20 PM
Death is progressive:
you stop moving and/or breathing
your heart stops
your brain activity ceases
putrefaction sets in
"you" becomes dust/dirt
Are you absolutely sure the last two are needed to confirm death?
Yeah, my understanding has been for many years that putrefaction was the only absolutely reliable confirmation of death, but of course in our high-tech age, lack of brain activity gets the nod, especially since organ harvesting has become such a growth industry. Yet we hear of people coming "back to life" in the early stages of an autopsy.
That's because flatlining(no heartbeat) is used almost exclusively when no organs are to be harvested. If someone goes from stable to near death in a matter of seconds or minutes, they usually don't hook up the brainwave machine (EEG)
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 18, 2013, 11:05:54 AM
That's because flatlining(no heartbeat) is used almost exclusively when no organs are to be harvested. If someone goes from stable to near death in a matter of seconds or minutes, they usually don't hook up the brainwave machine (EEG)
So it is possible to have no heartbeat (to flatline as you say), and still, conceivably have brain activity which goes undetected? The ramifications of that alone are astounding.
Sure, I came back from my heart not beating for almost 5 minutes. 3-4 minutes before the paramedics arrived and 1-2 minutes shocking me 3 times. I'm only slightly brain damaged. :laughing7:
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 18, 2013, 05:55:10 PM
Sure, I came back from my heart not beating for almost 5 minutes. 3-4 minutes before the paramedics arrived and 1-2 minutes shocking me 3 times. I'm only slightly brain damaged. :laughing7:
:mock: You ever thought of changing names with Laz?
AND
Not wanting to put too fine a point on it. Judging from you posts, there is nothing wrong with your brain brother.
It's mostly short term memory loss. 30-40 years ago I remember with clarity. Last week or month - not so much.
Wow, I've been like that all my life...but then, maybe it's a good preparation for eternity.
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 18, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
It's mostly short term memory loss. 30-40 years ago I remember with clarity. Last week or month - not so much.
Maybe nothing interesting has happened in the last 40 years.
...but how would I know?
You must take our word for it. :doh:
Now I'm suspicious. My wife tells me I said something or did something or promised something and I have to take her word for it. According to her, I said she' the most beautiful, fantastic, loving, extroadinairy person on the planet and it saddens her that she has to remind me regularly. :laughing7: (Hey at least I' don't forget to tell whats her name I love her)
Does she ever come in the door, and you ask her who she is, and what she is doing in your house?
Sounds like a great idea but that would be evil. I usually call out, "Is the love of my life home?"
Then call her honey and darlin so I don't have to remember her name :dontknow: :laugh:
LOL
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 18, 2013, 11:52:39 PM
Sounds like a great idea but that would be evil. I usually call out, "Is the love of my life home?"
Then call her honey and darlin so I don't have to remember her name :dontknow: :laugh:
What if next time she answers 'no'. What will you do then?
I'ld ask if that's ever happened, but how would you know. Could you bring her next time, she sounds like fun. But then again, how would
we know it was
her?
Well, Jeff seems to remember that he has a wife, even if he can't remember her name. :footmouth:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 19, 2013, 02:02:59 AM
Well, Jeff seems to remember that he has a wife, even if he can't remember her name. :footmouth:
But if he can't remember her name, how does he know he as a wife?
It's a real conundrum, for sure. :Chinscratch:
because when two become one it is more than mental (Thank God) :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 19, 2013, 02:53:56 AM
because when two become one it is more than mental (Thank God) :o)
Yah, I get you, I had a wife, it drove me mental.
course I know her, she happened before my heart stuff and memory loss, although sometimes when I ask if it's her she says, no, it's a figment of your imagination.
thats a lotta love :o)
"No greater love than this, that a person lay down his life for his friends..."
"...and you are my friend if you do what I say"
"I no longer call you servant but friend"
This might sound silly--
but why are you men discussing wives under 'Near Death Experiences'? :laugh:
We got off track because my nurse wife that teaches CPR was used by God to keep my NDE from becoming (FDE)the full death experience :Peace2:
Even the doctors and nurses all commented on a double miracle.
1. That I was alive at all
2. That I was not in a vegetative state
wow you had a near death experience? Did you experience anything?
I had one or more, also. Left my body twice.
I experienced ecclesiastes - "the dead know nothing" :laughing7:
I went from sitting on my bed taking my shoes off to waking up in a hospital bed 5 days later with no recall of anything. Doctors said million to one that I came through seemingly normal.
Quote from: Molly on February 19, 2013, 09:50:54 AM
This might sound silly--
but why are you men discussing wives under 'Near Death Experiences'? :laugh:
Molly, your question was funnier than all our (men's) lame jokes - I LOL'd. :laughing7: :laugh: :rolllol:
So hilarious :o)
Thanks for all the responses everyone!
Rich, I really enjoyed reading what you said and it was very encouraging to me.
MarcMarc, thanks for showing that you understand me and making me not feel crazy!
Everyone else, it really helped to get your input as well. It helps to see a distinction between NDE and FDE, as you say.
Thanks again!
I had one of these experiences. They're real. In fact mine seemed more real than reality. It was a profound affirmation that God is light, and God is love. It's not a problem to "fit this into our Christian faith" as you say. My experience made me aware that scripture really is the word of God. Prior to that I was agnostic and was not familiar with scripture because I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. Mystical experiences are part of history. The whole book of Revelation is one such experience, and our own apostle commissioned to those of us of the nations had one.
"2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak." (2 Corinthians 12:2)
But it's not necessary to have a mystical experience to believe.
"Happy are those who are not perceiving and believe." (John 20:29)
"by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)
Don't get hung up on altered perception because it's not always of God.
"And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14)
Get into the word of God through which the spirit of God will reveal the truth to you.
"you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free." (John 8:32)
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 19, 2013, 03:48:23 PM
We got off track because my nurse wife that teaches CPR was used by God to keep my NDE from becoming (FDE)the full death experience :Peace2:
Even the doctors and nurses all commented on a double miracle.
1. That I was alive at all
2. That I was not in a vegetative state
Wow! I'm so GLAD!! : )
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 19, 2013, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 19, 2013, 09:50:54 AM
This might sound silly--
but why are you men discussing wives under 'Near Death Experiences'? :laugh:
Molly, your question was funnier than all our (men's) lame jokes - I LOL'd. :laughing7: :laugh: :rolllol:
Me too!! : )
P.S - Some veRy good words Tom!
I agree Tom,I will tell of mine also. I was caught up toheaven..andwittness a man that
had a full de ath expierence...alive in heaven. His wife has his ashes from the cremation of hisbody
tothis day.I was allowed to exchange greetings with him
It has greatly changedmy outlook of death from ahumanperspective...to that of the Spirit's
perspective......
when God said 'ALL MEN LIVE UNTO ME"Hewasn't saying an idle word..but truth.
...the houriscoming..andis Now..when all who are inthetombs..will here the voiceofthesonof God
and rise.[that's allfolks..here wht the spiritis saying]
a full resurrection into heavens is a better resurrection then any 'revival back to this temporl
realm. It is mythought,thatif Ded2 had heard the voice of the Lord..calling him to rise..from this
temporal realm...he would notbe 'seen'by us today
then Ded2would have had afull deathexpierence..[death of his flesh/andafull spiritualexpierence
the fullnessofthe spirituallife..not just the token.
I dunno bout that. Lazarus was fully dead, and fully raised from the dead- as I read it anyway.
That's why it was a miracle :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on September 30, 2013, 02:10:46 AM
I dunno bout that. Lazarus was fully dead, and fully raised from the dead- as I read it anyway.
Fully raised and died again later? Or fully raised unto immortality? Taking Heb 9:27 (die once) literally would mean Lazarus is still paying taxes :winkgrin:
I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven. First off, do we go straight to Heaven or Hell when we die to only then get taken out of Heaven or Hell and sent before the Great White throne to be sent to Heaven or Hell again? Isn't that life after death? Even the Heavenly visions are life after death. Don't we have to die and then the resurrection? Before I became a Christian I studied alien abductions and realised as many other researchers did that the abduction looked real to the abductee but they never really left their bed.
Many Ufologists have likened alien encounters with demonic visitation. The reason I bring all this up is because we have fallen angels stuck on earth pretending to be aliens and giving apocalyptic visions to people. That means that they can give visions to people. There are so many lies being told by these fallen angels/demons that the only similarity they all have is they are the same as the lies told by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It's always some version of -you will not die (afterlife) and you will be as gods. God tells Adam and Eve that surely you will die and guess what? He was right and the serpent was lying. Satan still is and it's always the same lies. I assert that fallen angels are giving visions to dying people so if these people survive they can tell these lies about an afterlife. Good or bad visions of Heaven or Hell do the same job. The message is there is an afterlife and you do not die. If we do not die then God is a liar and that's what the fallen angels are trying to show with these visions. That's my 3 adjusted for inflation cents.
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 10, 2013, 05:14:56 AM
I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven.
They always are called NDE's but in many cases there is no medical proof for it. By that I mean; a medically skilled person didn't check vital signs. So many just as well may have had a vision/dream/or whatever term you prefer. If true, what would be the value of the dreams of OT prophets? Or the vision as described in Revelation? Assuming they are all fake demon induced...
:dontknow:
right..everything comes from one of the two sources inthis realm....
...the satan..or 'evilcontraast' is adept at mixing a little truth with his lie...............
ye shal be likeGod..knowing good andevil.......[to knowis to become oneflesh with.......
sinentered............anddying ye shallnotdie...wellwebedying inthiscorrupt image......but living
inChrist.......thank goodness thaat God's 'goodness' was inthat tree....and His hands
weild the 'axe' at the rootofthat tree...and there is hope for a tree...anda branch....
of the root ofJessecome forth.....the good of God in the tree is the mercy/love of God
shown tous throughJesus Christ.
Don'tforget Jesus...when ye speak of man dying.....he said..'I AM THE RESURRECTION"
what is resurrection but the rising of Life fromthe dead?
Life's waters have nodeath inthem forman....itdoesnot 'curse' man...but Blesses him
no more curse...fromthedust ye were taken..anduntodust ye shall return......
BUT THE SPIRIT WILL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT.......
Just maybe...whensatan set out todeceive Adam and Eve inthe garden to bringdeath
unto them...satan meant itforevil..but God meant itfor Good.............
for Hecauses allthings toworkforthegoodofthosewholoveHim.......
Let us make man in ourimage ANDLIKENESS[YE SHALL BE LIKE GOD/KNOWING GOOD
ANDEVIL.]....THE THING IS GOD REJECTS EVIL AND MAN IN HISLIKENESS WILL,TOO]
also this...inthe day ye eaat ofit..ye shall be like God...a lie..for at that time
sin entered aand we knew evil....andthus the promised seed prophesied that would
crush/destroy the 'knowing' ofevil as itpertains toman...and theknowing of God/good
in that tree through Jesus Christ.
thus...the law..being that which educates us what good/evil is[tokogae] withJesus
Christ the branch of God's goodness/mercy...TOL
Quote from: sheila on October 10, 2013, 04:49:14 PM
right..everything comes from one of the two sources inthis realm....
What are satan's limits? Can he give NDEs?
yes,lying signs and visions...'the great imitator..that sits on God's throne[our
bodies]and shows himself that he isgod[abomination]
strange visions,strange fire..strange garments..strange woman,ectasy with a strange
woman...............Jesusdoesn'tknow the strange woman..many say 'Lord,Lord...
and He says..I don'tknow you.....the adversary has his owndeceived 'elected' people
to cause confusion.the peoplethat knowtheir God willact withwisdom/Love/TRUTH
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 10, 2013, 05:14:56 AM
I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven. First off, do we go straight to Heaven or Hell when we die to only then get taken out of Heaven or Hell and sent before the Great White throne to be sent to Heaven or Hell again? Isn't that life after death? Even the Heavenly visions are life after death. Don't we have to die and then the resurrection? Before I became a Christian I studied alien abductions and realised as many other researchers did that the abduction looked real to the abductee but they never really left their bed.
Many Ufologists have likened alien encounters with demonic visitation. The reason I bring all this up is because we have fallen angels stuck on earth pretending to be aliens and giving apocalyptic visions to people. That means that they can give visions to people. There are so many lies being told by these fallen angels/demons that the only similarity they all have is they are the same as the lies told by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It's always some version of -you will not die (afterlife) and you will be as gods. God tells Adam and Eve that surely you will die and guess what? He was right and the serpent was lying. Satan still is and it's always the same lies. I assert that fallen angels are giving visions to dying people so if these people survive they can tell these lies about an afterlife. Good or bad visions of Heaven or Hell do the same job. The message is there is an afterlife and you do not die. If we do not die then God is a liar and that's what the fallen angels are trying to show with these visions. That's my 3 adjusted for inflation cents.
I don't believe this was a demonic deception or an alien abduction.
"2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)
I don't believe what happened to me was a demonic deception or alien abduction either. I don't call it a near death experience. I call it an out of body experience because I left my body and was looking down at it in a hospital bed before I rushed through darkness into the light. When I found myself back in my body, I was compelled to look in the drawer beside the bed where there was nothing but a Gideon Bible. I wasn't familiar with scripture because I was raised Catholic, but, when I opened the book and read something, I was overwhelmed with the realization that God was speaking to me through the words in that book.
I don't think we should assume all mystical experiences are demonic. We don't go straight to heaven after we die, but that doesn't mean we can't get a glimpse of it before we do. We actually go to what the King James calls hell when we die because it is simply the unseen state of dead souls. Christ even went to the unseen before his resurrection (Acts 2:31). The dead are reposing in the unseen until they will be vivified, some when we are snatched away (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and the rest, who died the second death after being judged before the great white throne, at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-24). I don't think having a vision validates the serpent's lie of immortality of the soul because the folks who call it a near death experience always come back. These visions are like dreams when we're awake. It's an altered state of consciousness. Death is real, and I think it's God's merciful way of removing us from this wicked eon to let us repose until we are all made alive to never die again.
I don't think this vision was demonic deception.
"1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.
3 And lo! Moses and Elijah were seen by them, conferring with Him." (Matthew 17:1-3)
I don't believe this vision was a demonic deception.
"3 Now in his going he came to be nearing Damascus. Suddenly a light out of heaven flashes about him.
4 And falling on the earth, he hears a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 Yet he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" Yet He said, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.
6 Nevertheless, rise and enter the city, and it will be spoken to you what you must be doing."" (Acts 9:3-6)
The book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is a mystical experience, and I don't think it is a demonic vision.
Mystical experiences are mysterious and sometimes misinterpreted. I think God reveals things to people sometimes in their conscious state and sometimes in dreams or visions. I don't think these visions are to be feared. I think they are telling us something, but sometimes it may be hard to understand exactly what that is. All is out of, through, and for God (Romans 11:36). I say be thankful for life's experiences, conscious or otherwise, and try to understand what they mean. As a result of my out of body experience, I have a profound realization that God really is light and love, and becoming aware of universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) has made me realize that all of creation is a demonstration of God's love which will ultimately lead to God being all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). The church won't tell you that, but it's right there in the inspired written word of God.
Some people think that because they have a mystical experience.
That their mystical experience has greater value that all of the doctrines of scripture.
Thousands of years of teaching and tradition gone because some one has a mystical experience .I wonder what Paul would say about something like that.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 11, 2013, 06:42:56 PM
Some people think that because they have a mystical experience.
That their mystical experience has greater value that all of the doctrines of scripture.
Thousands of years of teaching and tradition gone because some one has a mystical experience .I wonder what Paul would say about something like that.
I don't believe a mystical experience "has greater value that all of the doctrines of scripture" as you say. It should confirm scripture with some sort of revelation. I've seen some folks misinterpret their own mystical experiences. I believe scripture is the inspired written word of God. The word of God is truth, but "Thousands of years of teaching and tradition" of the church is not. I no longer follow church tradition because it invalidates the word of God just as Christ said the Pharisees did. I didn't come to this realization through a mystical experience but by studying the word of God.
"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)
I was thinking about Paul and his mystical experience and how ,for him, his mystical experience changed every thing he was ever
taught about scriptures.
Paul understood Christ is the complement of Hebrew scripture. He was chosen "to complete the word of God" (Colossians 1:25). I think we all need to be open to seeing things differently when we get more information. I read the King James for years thinking church doctrine about hell was truth until I became aware of universal reconciliation one day when I was on a die hard King James site and got mysteriously bounced to another site with information about it.
"for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell" (Colossians 1:19)
Paul had a mystical , and that gave him the courage to debate and argue
with all other teachers and religious leaders.
The teachers of scripture where probably going out of their minds .
Telling people Peter was not an authority on scriptures.
But they could not persuade people that just because they where,|
having a mystical experience that it proved any thing .
They said all this mystical stuff is of Satan.
But still people kept giving everything they owned away.
The Pharisees where not willing to give everything they owned away to
prove they believed whole heartedly in their scriptures.
Knowing humanity the way I do.
I will definitely take notice of any mystical or spiritual move.
Especially if we have a large group of normal people giving everything they own away.
I think reading scripture is a mystical experience because it is the inspired written word of God through which we receive the real power of the sword of the spirit to defend against and overcome the powers of darkness just as Christ did when confronted by Satan in the wilderness.
"For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)
"11 Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary,
12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials.
13 Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand.
14 Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on,
15 and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace;
16 with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.
17 And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 10, 2013, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 10, 2013, 05:14:56 AM
I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven.
They always are called NDE's but in many cases there is no medical proof for it. By that I mean; a medically skilled person didn't check vital signs. So many just as well may have had a vision/dream/or whatever term you prefer. If true, what would be the value of the dreams of OT prophets? Or the vision as described in Revelation? Assuming they are all fake demon induced...
:dontknow:
There is a difference between the visions in the Bible and visions given by fallen angels. Visions given by Biblical Angels start with the person falling down as if dead and not being able to breath. The Angel then touches the person and they can rise. Visions induced by fallen angels don't have this effect on people. Sometimes they can't move their body (just their eyes) but they can still breath. It's not as powerful. It is scary to think that demons can make a person who don't know Jesus see anything they want them to see.
Quote from: Tom on October 10, 2013, 10:58:04 PM
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 10, 2013, 05:14:56 AM
I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven. First off, do we go straight to Heaven or Hell when we die to only then get taken out of Heaven or Hell and sent before the Great White throne to be sent to Heaven or Hell again? Isn't that life after death? Even the Heavenly visions are life after death. Don't we have to die and then the resurrection? Before I became a Christian I studied alien abductions and realised as many other researchers did that the abduction looked real to the abductee but they never really left their bed.
Many Ufologists have likened alien encounters with demonic visitation. The reason I bring all this up is because we have fallen angels stuck on earth pretending to be aliens and giving apocalyptic visions to people. That means that they can give visions to people. There are so many lies being told by these fallen angels/demons that the only similarity they all have is they are the same as the lies told by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It's always some version of -you will not die (afterlife) and you will be as gods. God tells Adam and Eve that surely you will die and guess what? He was right and the serpent was lying. Satan still is and it's always the same lies. I assert that fallen angels are giving visions to dying people so if these people survive they can tell these lies about an afterlife. Good or bad visions of Heaven or Hell do the same job. The message is there is an afterlife and you do not die. If we do not die then God is a liar and that's what the fallen angels are trying to show with these visions. That's my 3 adjusted for inflation cents.
I don't believe this was a demonic deception or an alien abduction.
"2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)
I don't believe what happened to me was a demonic deception or alien abduction either. I don't call it a near death experience. I call it an out of body experience because I left my body and was looking down at it in a hospital bed before I rushed through darkness into the light. When I found myself back in my body, I was compelled to look in the drawer beside the bed where there was nothing but a Gideon Bible. I wasn't familiar with scripture because I was raised Catholic, but, when I opened the book and read something, I was overwhelmed with the realization that God was speaking to me through the words in that book.
I don't think we should assume all mystical experiences are demonic. We don't go straight to heaven after we die, but that doesn't mean we can't get a glimpse of it before we do. We actually go to what the King James calls hell when we die because it is simply the unseen state of dead souls. Christ even went to the unseen before his resurrection (Acts 2:31). The dead are reposing in the unseen until they will be vivified, some when we are snatched away (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and the rest, who died the second death after being judged before the great white throne, at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-24). I don't think having a vision validates the serpent's lie of immortality of the soul because the folks who call it a near death experience always come back. These visions are like dreams when we're awake. It's an altered state of consciousness. Death is real, and I think it's God's merciful way of removing us from this wicked eon to let us repose until we are all made alive to never die again.
I don't think this vision was demonic deception.
"1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.
3 And lo! Moses and Elijah were seen by them, conferring with Him." (Matthew 17:1-3)
I don't believe this vision was a demonic deception.
"3 Now in his going he came to be nearing Damascus. Suddenly a light out of heaven flashes about him.
4 And falling on the earth, he hears a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 Yet he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" Yet He said, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.
6 Nevertheless, rise and enter the city, and it will be spoken to you what you must be doing."" (Acts 9:3-6)
The book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is a mystical experience, and I don't think it is a demonic vision.
Mystical experiences are mysterious and sometimes misinterpreted. I think God reveals things to people sometimes in their conscious state and sometimes in dreams or visions. I don't think these visions are to be feared. I think they are telling us something, but sometimes it may be hard to understand exactly what that is. All is out of, through, and for God (Romans 11:36). I say be thankful for life's experiences, conscious or otherwise, and try to understand what they mean. As a result of my out of body experience, I have a profound realization that God really is light and love, and becoming aware of universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) has made me realize that all of creation is a demonstration of God's love which will ultimately lead to God being all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). The church won't tell you that, but it's right there in the inspired written word of God.
My post was so one sided and I entirely agree with you. God is in the vision and dream business as well.
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 24, 2013, 05:39:10 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 10, 2013, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: Robert Sparks on October 10, 2013, 05:14:56 AM
I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven.
They always are called NDE's but in many cases there is no medical proof for it. By that I mean; a medically skilled person didn't check vital signs. So many just as well may have had a vision/dream/or whatever term you prefer. If true, what would be the value of the dreams of OT prophets? Or the vision as described in Revelation? Assuming they are all fake demon induced...
:dontknow:
There is a difference between the visions in the Bible and visions given by fallen angels. Visions given by Biblical Angels start with the person falling down as if dead and not being able to breath. The Angel then touches the person and they can rise. Visions induced by fallen angels don't have this effect on people. Sometimes they can't move their body (just their eyes) but they can still breath. It's not as powerful. It is scary to think that demons can make a person who don't know Jesus see anything they want them to see.
Or a lot of times they prey on people's worst fears. It seems like people like Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter who have that "to hell and back" experience always come from legalistic, fire and brimstone preaching churches, and their dreams/visions are a result of the fear they've gotten from the environment they've been in. Also the human mind is a very powerful, mysterious thing, and it is very easy to misinterpret a dream. I have had dreams that are far too weird to describe on here.
Well, I guess it is time to share a little more of my life. Back in 1990, I was involved in a horrible accident with severe head injuries. My folks were told I would not make it. Yet I did, with no concept of the weeks I lost or of the accident. Nothing and no memory of an out of body experience even though I was told that I was "brought back" several times. I have as a result severe double vision. Father looked out for me for sure.
A few years later; however, I caught a fever and was rushed to hospital. I remember being covered in ice and wet towels with fans blowing not stop, just to break the fever. Sometime after I was put in a room, fell asleep and had my out of body experience.
I was walking in a beautiful green park just on dusk and in a clearing stood a single wooden table chair. The chair was so out of place but for some reason I walked to it and sat down. The chair immediately began to lift. Slowly and gently. I could feel the wind in my face, I could hear all the sounds. I could feel the wind rush around the chair. Cool! I arose above the trees and had a perfect view of the city, soon I was level with the clouds and then above them, the Earth was growing smaller by the minute.
By now the chair was rising at a very fast rate. When the Earth became not much more than a dot, I began to worry. It's like this wasn't fun anymore. I didn't ask for this, I just sat down!!
Well I heard a voice so clear say: "Isn't this what you wanted?" Oh crap, yes it was, but not really. I mean I had more than I realized down there. The voice (whom I am certain was Father) asked if I was sure, and then the chair began to descend. It was very difficult to judge speed in space, but when I broke through the stratosphere I could sense that I was traveling way to fast. I remember thinking that this wasn't going to end well. The ground was coming way to quick. I guess I was holding on to the chair for dear life, at least I should have been.
Just when I thought it was all over, the chair began to slow and slowed very fast but controlled. The chair touched down with the most gentle bump and believe me, that touched me more than anything else.
So did I have an out of body experience? I seen no bright lights or colored vortexes. I did not see my body (if it was left behind) Yet it was so real, perhaps more real than life itself.
Interesting huh?
Love Julie :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]