Did Jesus die

[lomarah]

Oh golly hahahahahaha  :LH:

[jabcat]

A comment in another thread, and the thoughts it elicited within me brought me back to this thread.  The thought I had (for the first time ever - thanks for jogging me :) was, "if Jesus was completely dead, i.e., soul sleep - not only His body dead, but also His spirit - could He honestly then have said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it up again"?  His Father raised Him from the dead.  But did He have to, or is that the choice Jesus and the Father made, to do it that way, and Jesus could have raised His body if He had chosen to?  That also takes into account scripture that says the spirit returns to God who gave it - not "the spirit is dead or sleeping".  Although, I've suggested earlier it could be possible at least our (humans) spirits could typically be in some sort of holding state within the Father until resurrection of the body?  Maybe not, but I'm not positive.  Blessings.

[jabcat]

Laz commented in the other thread that Jesus was the only man whose Spirit was His.  Very cool thought.  I'm not sure all the ramifications of that, but it does seem huge!

[VineBranch]

A comment in another thread, and the thoughts it elicited within me brought me back to this thread.  The thought I had (for the first time ever - thanks for jogging me :) was, "if Jesus was completely dead, i.e., soul sleep - not only His body dead, but also His spirit - could He honestly then have said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it up again"?  His Father raised Him from the dead.  But did He have to, or is that the choice Jesus and the Father made, to do it that way, and Jesus could have raised His body if He had chosen to?  That also takes into account scripture that says the spirit returns to God who gave it - not "the spirit is dead or sleeping".  Although, I've suggested earlier it could be possible at least our (humans) spirits could typically be in some sort of holding state within the Father until resurrection of the body?  Maybe not, but I'm not positive.  Blessings.

Sorry Jab, who says Christ's spirit died?  Is that believed by some?  Could you fill that one if for me.  According to Matthew 10:28, isn't God the only one who can kill a soul, or at least the only one to be feared for having that ability?  So, the people who killed Christ couldn't have killed his spirit:  could they have?

I don't think Christ couldn't have raised himself, his resurrection was a foregone conclusion.  Christ raised Lazarus, so Christ can raise the dead.   Perhaps the protocol was showing Him leading the way into a future: a future in which the Father raises us, and Christ's humanity made Him the first one of 'us' to be raised.

[jabcat]

I don't believe that Jesus' spirit died, but I THINK many do - the "soul sleep" advocates.  That's my interpretation of what they believe.  That Jesus was completely, fully dead for 3 days - including His spirit and everything about Him.  But if that's not what they really believe, maybe someone will clarify.   :thumbsup:

[VineBranch]

Laz commented in the other thread that Jesus was the only man whose Spirit was His.  Very cool thought.  I'm not sure all the ramifications of that, but it does seem huge!

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
(Mat 16:26)  KJV

Aren't those pronouns possesive? 

[VineBranch]

I don't believe that Jesus' spirit died, but I THINK many do - the "soul sleep" advocates.  That's my interpretation of what they believe.  That Jesus was completely, fully dead for 3 days - including His spirit and everything about Him.  But if that's not what they really believe, maybe someone will clarify.   :thumbsup:

Do you have any sources I might check?

[jabcat]

Here's a honkin' long thread on it;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic-support/soul-sleep-4791/msg49863/#msg49863

I BELIEVE micah believes in "total death/soul sleep".  micah, could you, in a clear way we can understand, give a general idea of what soul sleep believers tend to believe?  I know not all are the same, but maybe you could give us a summary?  Thanks.

[VineBranch]

Here's a honkin' long thread on it;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic-support/soul-sleep-4791/msg49863/#msg49863

I BELIEVE micah believes in "total death/soul sleep".  micah, could you, in a clear way we can understand, give a general idea of what soul sleep believers tend to believe?  I know not all are the same, but maybe you could give us a summary?  Thanks.

Thanks Jab.

I looked at the thread.  I'll start now, and see you around Christmas ...

[jabcat]

haha, yeah exactly...

i've been scanning it, and i think the best explanation i saw of soul sleep in the thread is actually in the opening post by sven.  it tends to scatter from there, at least over the next 6-8 pages.  i gave up after that.  :o

[eaglesway]

IMO, The idea that the soul "sleeps" in the interim between death and the second coming of Christ(every eye shall see Him even those that pierced Him) is just an idiom of expression. We die, we awaken in His presence at the Great White Throne. With the exception perhaps of "the spirits of righteous men made perfect"-144,000 overcomers caught up to His throne(Phil 3:11,12)- everyone dies and is without consciousness(sleeping) until the moment of their awakening, be it first or second resurrection. We make too much of it IMO.

[reFORMer]

A comment in another thread, and the thoughts it elicited within me brought me back to this thread.  The thought I had (for the first time ever - thanks for jogging me :) was, "if Jesus was completely dead, i.e., soul sleep - not only His body dead, but also His spirit - could He honestly then have said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it up again"?  His Father raised Him from the dead.  But did He have to, or is that the choice Jesus and the Father made, to do it that way, and Jesus could have raised His body if He had chosen to?  That also takes into account scripture that says the spirit returns to God who gave it - not "the spirit is dead or sleeping".  Although, I've suggested earlier it could be possible at least our (humans) spirits could typically be in some sort of holding state within the Father until resurrection of the body?  Maybe not, but I'm not positive.  Blessings.

The Father raises Jesus from the dead:
Romans 6⁴, CLV...
4 We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should be walking in newness of life.

Jesus raises Himself from the dead:
John 10^17-18, CLV...
17 "Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
18 No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father."

The Spirit raises Jesus from the dead:
Romans 8¹¹, CLV...
11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.

[ded2daworld]

Sounds trinitarian to me - it's like they are all God or something :eek:

[VineBranch]

Jesus raises Himself from the dead:
John 10^17-18, CLV...
17 "Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
18 No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father."

Ref, I'm sorry ... how does that show Jesus raised Himself?  He has the right to lay His soul down, and then the right to get it again.  How does that mean He raised Himself.  The Father could have given it back to Him.  Sorry, I seem to be the most obtuse one in the group.

[eaglesway]

"All power in heaven and earth is given to me by my Father"

"For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to recconcile all things..."

"When it says, "all things" are subjected to Him it is obvious that the One who made all things subject to Him is excepted"


I think that is exactly the case VB. The Father made death subject to Jesus by giving Him the power to take up His life again.

[VineBranch]

I think that is exactly the case VB. The Father made death subject to Jesus by giving Him the power to take up His life again.

Would that mean the raising is by the Father, and the agent is Jesus?  Is that the Father raising Jesus, just by another means?

[eaglesway]

It is debatable, because we have trouble with certain perceptions and definitions :o). I have a firm opinion about it but I don't like to offend, so I will just say this.

The Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. The Father gave Jesus the keys to death and sheol. The Father gave Jesus all authority in heaven and earth. The Father gave Jesus the name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow. The Father raised Jesus to His right hand and gave Him the "spirit without measure" so that now Jesus is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit baptism.

Jesus is the Son who exercises all of the authority of the Father. This is by appointment, inheritance and by the unlimited supply of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God.

[VineBranch]

It is debatable, because we have trouble with certain perceptions and definitions :o). I have a firm opinion about it but I don't like to offend, so I will just say this.

The Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. The Father gave Jesus the keys to death and sheol. The Father gave Jesus all authority in heaven and earth. The Father gave Jesus the name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow. The Father raised Jesus to His right hand and gave Him the "spirit without measure" so that now Jesus is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit baptism.

Jesus is the Son who exercises all of the authority of the Father. This is by appointment, inheritance and by the unlimited supply of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God.

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

[ded2daworld]

While Jesus was alive, it seems the holy spirit limited himself to a few individuals(pre-pentecost) mainly Jesus and John the presbyterian Baptist.

Thanks Micah

[Lazarus Short]

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

They could well be different Spirits, as the Revelation states there are seven Spirits of God, and the verse telling us to test the Spirits hints at multiplicity.

[micah7:9]

While Jesus was alive, it seems the holy spirit limited himself to a few individuals(pre-pentecost) mainly Jesus and John the presbyterian Baptist.

Thanks Micah

His Name is Wonderful!

[VineBranch]

Jesus is the Son who exercises all of the authority of the Father. This is by appointment, inheritance and by the unlimited supply of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God.

I don't quite get inheritance.  Does Jesus inherit God's power while the Father yet lives?

The Holy Spirit is the power to take up His life.  Was that what raised Lazarus?

[VineBranch]

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

They could well be different Spirits, as the Revelation states there are seven Spirits of God, and the verse telling us to test the Spirits hints at multiplicity.

That makes sense.  But I don't get why it is The Holy Spirit then.  Wouldn't it be A Holy Spirit?

[Lazarus Short]

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

They could well be different Spirits, as the Revelation states there are seven Spirits of God, and the verse telling us to test the Spirits hints at multiplicity.

That makes sense.  But I don't get why it is The Holy Spirit then.  Wouldn't it be A Holy Spirit?

The HS is usually discussed in the singular, maybe to keep things simple, maybe because it is written about sometimes as singular in the Bible, maybe because the priest/pastor doesn't want to do the "baptismal dip" nine times instead of three.

[eaglesway]

In Acts Chapter two Peter explains that being ascended to the Fathers right hand, Jesus received the Spirit and poured out "that which you do now see and hear". I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the "Spirit without measure". Thats why He had to go before the Spirit could "come upon us". As the Vine to we branches, As the chief cornerstone to we living stones, He is the source of our being filled with the Spirit. It is "from Him, through Him and to Him" and also "in Him".

Jesus is the fountainhead.

"He that believes in me, out of hos innermost being shall flow rivers of living water". In this He was speaking of the Holy Spirit, whom all believed were to receive." (John 7)