Dead know nothing

[eaglesway]

:o) I luv ya James. Its no big deal to me and I am no absolute literalist by any means, I get accused of being a preterist when I read Revelations, and a literalist when I read Paul and the Gospels. I just happen to believe some of the word is literal and it all needs to be taken into account. The typology is as important to me in understanding the literal as the literal is in understanding the typology, IMO one without the other is like a one legged frog. :eek:

[ded2daworld]

So then, the dead know nothing as the Bible says in Ezekiel? (That should get us back on track)

[eaglesway]

No, that's just what it says, it doesn't mean that :o)

[jabcat]

I saw an interesting post on that once.  The author stated that one verse is in context of earthly/temporal matters.  IMO, a perspective worth considering, especially considering many other scrips.   :2c:

[ded2daworld]

I considered that but then there is the question of the dead "sleeping" and we aren't concious when we sleep.
...and Samuel complaining about being awakened after he had died.
It's why we say "we had to put our animal to sleep, rather then "we killed them and sent them to a fiery hell" :doh: :laugh:

[reFORMer]

It's wonderful that we've been buried with Christ; for, "The dead know nothing."  Now at rest, we can come to God without needing our heads to be stuffed and overflowing with right thinking.

[eaglesway]

Just some ideas and glimpses of things that may or may not be solid.

I see it that way, James. From the earthly perspective we sleep(as time passes within the veil). From the heavenly perspective we die in one moment and wake up in the next moment on the other side of the veil("to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", "I long put off this mortal clothing and to be clothed upon with my heavenly tent".

I also think it's possible that the overcomers do not sleep, "Not that I have already attained, but I press towards the mark of the prize(reward) of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, if by any means I might attain to the resurrection(exanastasis, "out resurrection") from amongst the dead, not that I have already attained it...

exanastasis is used only this one time, by Paul- like he coined the word himself, and it means, according to my brandt gingrich Lexicon - "out resurrection" from amongst the dead(sleepers?)

Awake O sleeper and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you. Walk as children of the day and you will not be taken by the thief(death)

One was taken, one was left(death is the taker, not the rapture).....two verses later "As it was in the days of Noah......They did not understand until the door closed and they were all taken away(into death)


Here I think Paul is talking of the first resurrection- for overcomers(spirits of righteous men made perfect)

If we walk in the light and continue faithful to the end we will be in the first resurrection, the "clouds" surrounding His appearing being those who "finished the course"... "Well done my good and faithful servant" (He is coming in the clouds and His reward is with Him).

Some will lose their reward(first res, overcomers inheritance ad be "saved as through fire" (Go before the great white throne second death, lake of fire, works "burned up, lose their reward".

[ded2daworld]

But IMO, we were raised to walk in the newness of life, we aren't still dead and/sleeping :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I agree with your opinion, for those are awake :o). Not everyone who believes remains awake, or Paul would not have exhorted them to "Awake! and Rise From The Dead!"

"I know your works, that you have a name that lives, yet you are dead"

The Laodiceans for instance, were sleeping at their watch, when John warned them in revelations, as were certain followers of the doctrine of the Nicolaitains and the false prophetess Jezebel.

Or as James said, "Cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded". Draw near to God and He will draw near to you", and, "blessed is the man who endures under trial, for after he has overcome he will obtain the crown of life".

[Molly]

So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.

This is Literal interpretation! Do anybody else see a problem?

Actually, literalism is reading that the fire is burning the bush and the bush is not consumed, and believing that description, even though it defies all experience and common sense.

It is believing what God says, literally.

The same thing happens with the Apostles at Pentecost.

Now I'm sure you could also come up with all kinds of spiritual explanations for what was going on with that bush, as well.  And, that would also be fine, assuming they were instructive and useful to yourself and others.

That's what's so wonderful about the Bible.

[eaglesway]

So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.

This is Literal interpretation! Do anybody else see a problem?

Actually, literalism is reading that the fire is burning the bush and the bush is not consumed, and believing that description, even though it defies all experience and common sense.

It is believing what God says, literally.

The same thing happens with the Apostles at Pentecost.

Now I'm sure you could also come up with all kinds of spiritual explanations for what was going on with that bush, as well.  And, that would also be fine, assuming they were instructive and useful to yourself and others.

That's what's so wonderful about the Bible.

Exactly. The record of Acts has nowhere within it any literal record or allegorical inference of anyone screaming and blistering from any fire. That interpretation would not be an "interpretation", it would just be a "re-writing" of the literal history which shows only the glory and power and grace of God being revealed.

[dajomaco]

While I was with you, I decided to deal with only one subject—Jesus Christ, who was crucified.

I didn't think it was a good idea to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

I made up my mind that while I was with you I would speak of nothing except
Jesus Christ and of His death on the cross.

IMO Paul new that if you had been given the gift of understanding this one act
the Cross. Who authored it, Who was involved. 

There is only one thing to know IPO.
To know Jesus Christ is to be alive forever. (forever starts exactly when believe it).
The dead who do not know Jesus are dead.
The living who do not know Jesus are already dead.

When we deal with different aspects of the whole person we have things
and notions that are not logical. The living dead.

Did God blow the breath of Live on the dust more than once.
The spirit of live is eternal .
How many Great Great Fathers of and guardians of the written word.
Only new Christ and him crucified?

  Entire Body Of Scriptures

1.   What will it benefit a man if he gains the whole world yet loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?

[Dani H]

Are you claiming special revelatory knowledge?

Never. I think at the end of the day, the most honest approach to discussing Scripture is with the disclaimer of "this is my current understanding of what this passage says."

There have been many times when I *thought* the meaning of something was clear, only to be corrected by God as He showed me the real-life application of a passage as I was walking it out and He was showing me how it applied to my current circumstances and the decisions I needed to make.

Scripture is an interesting thing in that it refuses to be divorced from reality. It's no use discussing theoretical concepts, because God neither exists, nor operates, in theory. The Bible always deals with reality.

And as that goes, because there are aspects of reality none of us have ever experienced, we can provide no authoritative teaching on it. We can share our understanding, our opinions and our beliefs. And, as those go, one is as valid as the other, really.

Scripture is full of allegories, pictures and attempts at descriptions of God by finite human beings that come nowhere close to the actual reality of who God actually is, because how can the finite understand the infinite? But, it gives us enough of a general idea to live our lives here in humility and obedience to Him.

To use the burning bush example: It's not about the bush or the fire. It's about God dealing with Moses, getting his attention and equipping him for the job that needed to be done. Scripture is about GOD dealing with PEOPLE, to get us to ACT. If we're not spurned to ACTION, then we're missing the whole thing I believe.

[dajomaco]

Scriptures are for the living.
Specifically for the person reading them.

You can NOT take scriptures and heal some one with them.
You can NOT take scriptures and make them do anything
other than what they were created to do.

That is to point you toward Jesus.
Jesus did many signs and wonders so that we might believe.
Scriptures is just that a sign.

Our egos and emotions are the only realty.

There is only one substance in the universe and that is LOVE

Gods ego and emotions can only be learned through his Son.

Today is a perfect day to experiment with the substance of LOVE
When the day is done look at your scriptures
and see if they point to anything other than.

The LOVE that GOD THE FATHER pours out on his SON
JESUS.
The LOVE that the TRUE SON OF GOD has for his FATHER,
Is so wondrous . HOLY SPIRIT calls me a child of this same FATHER.
GOD adopted me. The SON OF GOD went on along and arduous journey
in a foreign land to bring me back safely.
The journey took a toll .That toll was the death of the first member of
GOD THE FATHERS family ADAM.
The HOLY SPIRIT declares to me that I AM now a SON OF GOD.


The paper work for the adoption will follow.

[Lazarus Short]

Scripture is full of allegories, pictures and attempts at descriptions of God by finite human beings that come nowhere close to the actual reality of who God actually is, because how can the finite understand the infinite? But, it gives us enough of a general idea to live our lives here in humility and obedience to Him.

I believe that here-and-now human language is inadequate to express the things of God fully, and that is why Jesus had to beat around the bush a bit, and say things like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."

[ded2daworld]

Right Laz.-
"If you can't understand when I speak of earthly things,
how will it be when I speak of heavenly things?"

[Dani H]

I believe that here-and-now human language is inadequate to express the things of God fully, and that is why Jesus had to beat around the bush a bit, and say things like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."

Like explaining the color blue to a blind person. *nods*

You can get somewhat close and convey a general meaning, but some things just have to be experienced to be fully understood.

[eaglesway]

"Our egos and emotions are the only realty."  Quote

Our egos and emotions may be our only reality if we are limited by them or trapped within them, but doubt that they are the only reality.

......that you may be one, even as I and the Father are one. Jesus prayer that we would be unlimited in our unity is the destination. Many vistas that extend way beyond our emotions and egos are unveiled along the way.

[dajomaco]

"Our egos and emotions are the only realty."  Quote

Our egos and emotions may be our only reality if we are limited by them or trapped within them, but doubt that they are the only reality.

......that you may be one, even as I and the Father are one. Jesus prayer that we would be unlimited in our unity is the destination. Many vistas that extend way beyond our emotions and egos are unveiled along the way.

Eagles you and I will be one in reality.
When our egos and emotions are willing to allow the reality that we are already one. 

Until then
Our egos and emotions are the only realty.

[eaglesway]

By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God.

That's my reality.

My ego plays only a small and diminishing part in it. My emotions are just the reflexes of my heart and mind, thank God!

[dajomaco]

By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God.

That's my reality.

My ego plays only a small and diminishing part in it. My emotions are just the reflexes of my heart and mind, thank God!

Faith
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

When your talking through faith your reality is unseen.

I was talking about a seen reality.
You need an Ego to see this reality

[eaglesway]

I see no basis in the scriptures or in my experience for your position.....

When Isaiah saw the Lord his ego was slain"Woe unto me I am a man of unclean lips". When Job saw the Lord he said, "My ears had heard but now my eyes have seen and I abhor myself"- when previously he had been upholding his righteousess.

Maybe our definition of ego is different.

[dajomaco]

I was using the term Ego as the self, seeing itself. (in reality)

[micah7:9]

Again, perhaps even though it is Solomon, a man of great wisdom, wisdom given to him by his Lord tho in the OT and not the NT, wrote..Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
It is only a matter of acceptance and we will learn from there. :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I always thought the ego was blind to itself until mirrored in the face of God and then it is destroyed.