Being new here, not sure where to pose this question.
Jonah 2:2 He said: "In my distress I called to the Lord, and he answered me. From the depthes of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
If the dead know nothing, how do they cry out from the grave?
Welcome!
I'm a hoosier too!. Genesis 4;10 The Lord said 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? LISTEN! YOU BROTHER'S BLOOD CRIES OUT TO ME FROM THE GROUND.
souls crying out under the altar.. avenge our blood.Rev 6;9-11
The Life is in the blood :HeartThrob:
Blood crying out is a figure of speech and not blood making an actual sound. For example "Their blood cries out: the worldwide tragedy of modern Christians. By Paul A. Marshall, Lela Gilbert"
The souls are crying out from the altar, not from the grave. This is during the Resurrection.
Opps! :welcome:
Jon 2:2 And he is saying, I call, because of my distress, to Yahweh, my Elohim, and He is answering me. From the belly of the unseen I implore; You hear my voice."
It was Jonah's place of the "unseen." :2c:
Welcome. :thumbsup:
Thanks all for the welcome!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 03:36:04 AM
Opps! :welcome:
Jon 2:2 And he is saying, I call, because of my distress, to Yahweh, my Elohim, and He is answering me. From the belly of the unseen I implore; You hear my voice."
It was Jonah's place of the "unseen." :2c:
Jonah 2
Jonah's Prayer
1 From
inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. 2 He said:
"In my distress I called to the LORD,
and he answered me.
From the depths of the grave[a] I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
Jonah was not dead, he was alive inside a great fish and was praying to God.
I'm trying to reconcile the two verses. If the dead know nothing, how can the dead call out to God? John 11 Jesus refers to death as sleep. We are not aware of what is going on around us. My wife can get up in the middle of the night and I'll never know it. unless she wakes me up. We do cry out in our sleep sometimes, in response to a dream, but so does my dog. Neither is a cry to God.
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
--Luke 11:29
He offers this sign to them which signifies the resurrection of the dead. Therefore, Jonah was dead inside the whale, yet he could pray.
We see the same with David. David's statement of faith--
If I go up to heaven, you are there; if I go down to the grave, you are there.[Ps 139:8]
This shows the total trust of the saints in God and that nothing can cut them off from God--and that he will never leave them.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 8:38,39
Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 01:54:09 PM
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
--Luke 11:29
He offers this sign to them which signifies the resurrection of the dead. Therefore, Jonah was dead inside the whale, yet he could pray.
We see the same with David. David's statement of faith--
If I go up to heaven, you are there; if I go down to the grave, you are there.[Ps 139:8]
This shows the total trust of the saints in God and that nothing can cut them off from God--and that he will never leave them.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 8:38,39
Jonah 1:5 All the sailors were afraid and each cried out to his own god. And they threw the cargo into the sea to lighten the ship. But Jonah had gone below deck, where he lay down and fell into a
deep sleep.
Jonah was asleep not dead. He would have to pray in his sleep. No where does it say he died nor does it say he was resurrected. We are talking about Jonah, not Christ.
I agree that death will not separate us from the love of Christ, but it seems the dead still know nothing. If a child dies, we still love that child.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave,[a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave[a] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
[a] Hebrew Sheol
well, Jesus went down to the pit..hoping in HIS FAITHFULLNES...and look what happened.....those scriptures may apply to the old fallen Adam body.
.but NOT to the last Adam quickening spirit. O'death..where is thy sting? I SHALL BE THY PLAGUE. the Hour is coming..when all in the grave shall 'HEAR"
the voice of the son of God and come forth
I ask you,'DOES A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT THE SON OF GOD,KNOW ANYTHING?
the GATES OF HELL[grave]SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT
this is eternal life...TO KNOW THE FATHER AND THE SON......
and they will ALL KNOW ME...WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN
1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
--Jonah 2
1Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made
alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience
waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.[Eph 4:8]
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5:8
Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
Quote from: Southern Hoosier on September 16, 2011, 02:00:36 AM
Being new here, not sure where to pose this question.
Jonah 2:2 He said: "In my distress I called to the Lord, and he answered me. From the depthes of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
If the dead know nothing, how do they cry out from the grave?
howdy, new here myself! :rocker :rocker lol love the smilies!
Okay, first, I'd say not all of scripture is literal. In fact, a lot of it is very poetic, allegorical, symbolic. Sometimes it is way over the top to emphasize a point.
Second, I'd ask you this. Have you ever heard of , I think they call it lucid dreaming? It's happened to me before, and it is truly a bizarre experience. You are asleep, truly asleep, yet you KNOW you are asleep, you KNOW you are dreaming, some part of your conscious mind is aware. You can even train yourself with persistence and patience to be able to direct your dreams and be consciously aware as you sleep. You are still not dead, of course, but it is possible to be aware.
Third, Jonah was not really dead. It was to him from his perspective as if he were dead, because in his situation, without divine intervention, he was as good as dead. Symbolic speech.
just some thoughts to add to the discussion.
Hi Lindy, The sign of Jonah refers to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Like Jonah, we already know what it's like to be dead. We have lived through it, been to hell and back, and are now resurrected in heavenly places with Christ, waiting for the redemption of our bodies.
To be cut off from him is to be dead, to know nothing, and Satan works mightily to cut off God's people--he is good at what he does--
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
You know that place, don't you? Me too. That is death.
I have enjoyed reading your testimony. Welcome, sister in Christ!
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2011, 06:25:22 PM
Hi Lindy, The sign of Jonah refers to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Like Jonah, we already know what it's like to be dead. We have lived through it, been to hell and back, and are now resurrected in heavenly places with Christ, waiting for the redemption of our bodies.
To be cut off from him is to be dead, to know nothing, and Satan works mightily to cut off God's people--he is good at what he does--
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
You know that place, don't you? Me too. That is death.
I have enjoyed reading your testimony. Welcome, sister in Christ!
Hi, Molly, thanks for the welcome!
Yeah, I know the symbology of Jonah / Jesus, was just going by what the op was considering in a different direction. And yes, I know that place all too well. :gangel:
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:26:02 AM
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
?
then my savior lied to the thief on the cross? and when Jesus was transfigured on the mount, it wasn't the dead Moses and Elijah with him?
With all respect, I send you love, Micah, and wish you well. I must be honest and true to what my Father has taught me, that what Jesus did is, indeed, good news, not a false hope. Jesus WAS resurrected as we will be, Jesus IS ALIVE even now, and the thief who died with him IS with him now as He promised, and Moses and Elijah WERE with him on that mount, and this fills my heart with joy.
My opinion may be wrong, and if so, I ask forgiveness of my Father for being in error, but this is my basic child like understanding. I see all of time as a grand stage. I am on that stage at a certain point in time, while my Father is in the heavenlies able to see the beginning from the end. My understanding is limited, His is limitless. Upon death, the soul essence of who I am LEAVES this stage of time and enters God's domain, OUTSIDE of time, therefore it is instantaneous. What Christ did reached back from the foundations to the endings of all things and triumphed over death, the grave, the wages of sin, paying that price for me that I cannot pay. Even Paul was torn, wanting to be here for the believers yet yearning to be free and be with Christ.
The dead that know nothing, it is merely the shell, the physical body we now live in, stained and corrupted with sin, that turns to dust and knows nothing. If that is all we are, just physical creatures, then we would just be gone. But we are not just physical, we are spirit and soul,thanks to Jesus the love of God lives in us and does not, cannot die, will not fail. The spirit within is the promise of the fullness to come.
However, I do not wish to argue, I prefer to walk in peace. So in the interests of peace, I will simply back out of this discussion and love you and wish you well. God bless.
:HeartThrob:I as well will send Love. Peace and Love Through Jesus My Savior and King. :cloud9: :bigGrin:
Quote from: Lindy on September 22, 2011, 03:15:38 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:26:02 AM
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
?
then my savior lied to the thief on the cross?
I don't think He lied. Maybe the translators lied or misunderstood....
(assuming you are refering to the today in paradise verse)
ah yes, in the garden with HIM......nothing a man eats defiles him[like tokogae] for it passes into the intestines and sewer..it
is what comes out of a man's heart that defiles him.
he who overcomes..I will grant to eat of the TOL......the last enemy is death...of which this man was to overcome through Christ...and his
faith in Him.......I think he did just that....and symbolizes those on the right who receive the kingdom prepared for them..... returns to Father...the one on his left
symbolizes the spirit of the one who goes off into eternal cutting off...returns to the dust.[just as Pharoah,Judas etc symbolized]
the TOL is Christ...left and right is evil and good seed of tokogae....... only one is Good,even the Father in Heaven.good seed of togagae to
eat from TOL....evil seed....to be destroyed[what does evil know anyway? It does not and can not know God] and this is life eternal....to know God
and His son.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:26:02 AM
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
You have heard it said, the dead know nothing.
But, Jesus said, Let the dead bury the dead.
Quote from: Lindy on September 22, 2011, 03:15:38 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:26:02 AM
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
?
then my savior lied to the thief on the cross? and when Jesus was transfigured on the mount, it wasn't the dead Moses and Elijah with him?
No they were not, and we can see this by reading Matthews version of the same event... Mat 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell
the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."
It was a vision, not an actual event, other wise scripture would contradict.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?
Psa 88:10 Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for
there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Joh 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on September 24, 2011, 05:03:59 AM
Quote from: Lindy on September 22, 2011, 03:15:38 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:26:02 AM
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
?
then my savior lied to the thief on the cross? and when Jesus was transfigured on the mount, it wasn't the dead Moses and Elijah with him?
No they were not, and we can see this by reading Matthews version of the same event... Mat 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."
It was a vision, not an actual event, other wise scripture would contradict.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?
Psa 88:10 Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Paul
Well GLORY!
read on...read on...to Ecc 12;7....and the dust returns to the ground it came from[mere dirt] AND THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT...
I AM RETURNING TO MY FATHER AND YOU FATHER.......from now on call no man your father on earth
Quote from: sheila on September 24, 2011, 07:17:20 AM
read on...read on...to Ecc 12;7....and the dust returns to the ground it came from[mere dirt] AND THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT...
I AM RETURNING TO MY FATHER AND YOU FATHER.......from now on call no man your father on earth
"THE SPIRIT" it has been brought up before, I understand this "spirit" to be the "breath of life," of Genesis 2:7 God gave us the breath to become a living soul, when we die/quit breathing, our body returns to dust and that breath, the Creator takes back to Himself until the resurrection, that "breath of life," is held in His "time," UNTIL it is needed for His purpose.
I get weary that the Word of God is doubted by those who cannot or will not accept that we will and must die. Our body returns to dust[that body/flesh is in the grave...awaiting] and the very breath that He gave man returns to Him[this is not the spirit as a single soul] He is the Father of spirits, Adam was formed from the dust and the Lord God put the breath of life into that formed clay that adam would be able to carry out God's plan and purpose. Man did not receive a "spirit" but "breath" to become alive as the first human being.
sheila, so it seems you're suggesting the spirit is something different than "just" breath, and is living in a different realm, as the body returns to dust...
micah, you may have addressed this before, if you have forgive me, and i'll be brief;
how do you address in John 11 when Jesus said "and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
thanks! :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on September 24, 2011, 08:00:52 AM
sheila, so it seems you're suggesting the spirit is something different than "just" breath, and is living in a different realm, as the body returns to dust...
micah, you may have addressed this before, if you have forgive me, and i'll be brief;
how do you address in John 11 when Jesus said "and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
thanks! :bigGrin:
Jab, are you alive through Christ, all who believe in Jesus are alive. Should we be of the chosen, the sons of God, manifested, those who are called the Overcomer we will not die to the ages; and will be there to judge(1Cor.6:2) Still, as adam/mankind/human beings, we all have sinned and come short.
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
This being true, and I believe it to be a truth, and if so, then we(all of mankind) must pay for the our wages of our sins. And that debt is death.
The Lord God said it in Genesis 2 and and Jesus said, Joh 12:24 verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth,
may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
We will die IN Him and we will live In Him; In Him we live! Yet we must pay the wage. Jesus showed us the way. Jesus said said, I lay my life down to die, no one takes it from me, so it is with the sons we lay our life down should we believe we will live. I understand it, I get it. Since I came to understand that EVERYTHING that orthodox religion brings forth and teaches is in error of the truth.
...then we must all pay our wage of sin....you are in error......
'who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone? Jesus knew what they were thinking,and asked,
"WHY ARE YOU THINKING THESE THINGS IN YOUR HEARTS? WHICH IS EASIER TO SAY,'YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN,OR TO SAY
GET UP AND WALK? BUT THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS, HE
SAID TO THE PARALYSED MAN,'I TELL YOU,GET UP,TAKE YOUR MAT AND GO HOME"
'everything in orthodox teaching is in error" wrong again.......His outer garment was divided[four corners of earth]...they parted my garments
parable of the talents....talents = spiritual truth..........everyone has at least one talent of truth........the unfaithful steward...buried it in
the earth......did not increase it....this was given to those who were faithful to increase the Lord's interest in the Kingdom.
to bury something in the earth is to put it to death by carnal/fleshly understanding...obscuring the 'talen of spiritual light"... THE lAMB SLAIN FROM
THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH[SPIRIT PLACED IN EARTHLY VESSEL]SPIRIT OF GOD=BLAMELESS SPOTLESS LIFE IN SPIRIT POURED INTO DUST
AND COVERED[DUST EARTH BODY]
Flesh and blood can NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN MAN...AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT THE SPIRIT
THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING.......[A MAN DOES NOT LIGHT A LAMP AND HIDE IT UNDER A BASKET=FLESH DOES HE?]
hEBREWS 12;23 bUT YOU HAVE COME TO mOUNT ZION,TO THE HEAVENLY jERUSALEM,THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD. YOU HAVE COME
TO THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF ANGELS IN JOYFUL ASSEMBLY,TO THE CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN,WHOSE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN
YOU HAVE COME TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL MEN,TO THE 'SPIRITS' OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT
A lIFE GIVING 'QUICKENIN'SPIRIT THE LAMB SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH WERE LAID.........
SPIRIT=SEAMLESS INNER GARMENT....lAMB'S BLOOD IN DUST=[ SPIRIT LIFE SLAIN=PARTED OUTER GARMENTSPLIT HOOF...LIKE SHEEP SKINNED
AND THROWN ABOUT.]
J JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF A NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE SPRINKLED BLOOD[SPIRIT] THAT SPEAKS A BETTER WORD THAN THE BLOOD OF ABEL[DUST]
NOW, THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD WAS UNTO LIFE[ IN THE SPIRIT] YOUR FLESH HAS NO LIFE IN ITSELF..IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT 'QUICKENS' THE
MORTAL BODY.....JUST AS A DIRT DEVIL IS DEAD INERT DUST WITH NO LIFE....TIL A WIND VORTEC FORMS IT INTO A SHAPE AND IT BECOMES LIVELY
AND MOVING AND AN OUTWARD EXPRESSION MANIFESTED IN THE SEEN....TIL THE DUST DISSIPATES AND RETURNS TO THE GROUND AS THE WIND GOES
FORTH ON IT'S JOURNEY........SO,TOO.....THE SPIRIT OF LIFE ANIMATES THE DUSTY FORM OF FLESH IN MAN....
ELIJAH TAKEN TO HEAVEN IN A WHIRLWIND....THE HORSES AND CHARIOTS[SPIRIT] OF ISRAEL...EVEN THE SPIRIT OF GOD THAT WAS IN ELIJAH
RETURNING UNTO GOD THAT GIVE IT
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
--Eph 2
[And] "hath raised us up together"
From G4862 and G1453; to rouse (from death) in company with, that is, (figuratively) to revivify (spiritually) in resemblance to: - raise up together, rise with.
We are already made alive and raised up [resurrected] to heaven. We've ascended to heaven already. We have died and been resurrected already.
Otherwise, we couldn't and wouldn't believe because we would be the walking dead.
We already died, Micah, baptized into his death, and we have already been resurrected [spiritually] with him, and now we wait for the full gift to be given to us, to wit the resurrection of the body.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
--Rom 6
Our new man is free from sin, Micah.
"Our new man is free from sin, Micah." Molly
AMEN! :dsunny: :ty: :happyclap: AMEN! :happyclap:
That is so true!!! :bigGrin: :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on September 24, 2011, 08:00:52 AM
sheila, so it seems you're suggesting the spirit is something different than "just" breath, and is living in a different realm, as the body returns to dust...
micah, you may have addressed this before, if you have forgive me, and i'll be brief;
how do you address in John 11 when Jesus said "and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
thanks! :bigGrin:
The sheer fact that we do die (That is stop breathing, brain and heart stops functioning), should shed some light on the issue. Martha give us a example when her brother dies...
Joh 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again
in the resurrection on the last day."
Just as Jesus taught...
Joh 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing,
but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.
:thumbsup:
Paul
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH,NO ONE CAN SEE THE KINGDOM UNLESS HE IS BORN AGAIN. FLESH GIVES BIRTH TO FLESH
BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES BIRTH TO SPIRIT.....HOW CAN A MAN BE BORN WHEN HE IS OLD[
THE WIND BLOWS WHEREVER IT PLEASES,YOU HEAR IT'S SOUND,BUT YOU CAN NOT TELL WHERE IT COMES FROM OR WHERE IT IS GOING
SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE BORN OF THE SPIRIT
'WE' DIE.?..THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING......THE FLESH HAS NO LIFE.....THE LIFE IS IN THE SPIRIT
"For in Adam all die..." (I Cor. 15:22.) What then is the only hope of ALL believers who die in Adam? Why the resurrection from the dead, of course. Pathetically and ironically, what most Christians consider a totally useless doctrine, Paul tells us is our only hope of ever living again after we die.
So do we enter eternal life upon death, as Christendom teaches? NO, let's read it:
"So also is the resurrection of the DEAD [notice please, that nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the LIVING, or of the resurrection of the BODY], it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body... the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [that would be Jesus] was made a quickening [living] SPIRIT" (I Cor. 15:42-46)
YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT OLD DEAD ADAM...I'M TALKING ABOUT THE NEW MAN IN CHRIST THE SPIRIT BEGOTTON NEW CREATURE.
BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE/SPIRIT
Quote from: sheila on September 25, 2011, 04:04:10 AM
YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT OLD DEAD ADAM...I'M TALKING ABOUT THE NEW MAN IN CHRIST THE SPIRIT BEGOTTON NEW CREATURE.
BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE/SPIRIT
SO AM I. :HeartThrob:
All those who hate me love death. [Prov 8:36]
John 8:51, "If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death."
John 8:52, At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
It is the Pharisees and the Jews who didn't believe him, and they are the ones he told would die in their sins.
John 8, 24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins."
Quote from: Micah[notice please, that nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the LIVING, or of the resurrection of the BODY]
I've already given you tons of scripture that speak of both, so don't ask me why, but I'll give you one more.
And not only they, but ourselves also,
which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit,
the redemption of our body. [Rom 8:23]
We are already saved [sealed with the earnest of the Spirit as a down payment] and will receive the last piece, our glorified bodies, at the end of the age [the Last day]. Until then, we will be alive with Christ.
"I've already given you tons of scripture that speak of both, so don't ask me why, but I'll give you one more."
You have given me NONE that would deny the very Word of God. You may say and interpret a verse to make you feel secure, but the Word of God says
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
you speak of the Word of God in the OT as something you can throw aside when it fits your will and understanding. We can talk all day about this "spiritual death," which I believe with my whole heart, but that will not stop man from his end. For it is by dying that the wages of his sin is payed. Jesus died for the SIN of the world, He did not die your death.
The wages of your sin is death. If the "spiritual death" of which you speak and I believe in, is the payment for your sins, then
Paul was far from the course of the Gospel.
The old man is dead, crucified with Christ, but you are a human being flesh and blood and flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven. Just how is your BODY of FLESH AND BLOOD ABLE TO ENTER THAT SANCTUARY?
Quote from: MicahJust how is your BODY of FLESH AND BLOOD ABLE TO ENTER THAT SANCTUARY?
Micah, I know what it says in Gen 2. But that is the beginning of the story. We've come a ways since then, don't you think? Or in other words,
I have already died in Christ and was buried with him and raised with him and am now seated with him in the heavenlies. This is the gift he's given his people. And, one day, the gift will be completed with redemption of my body.
Because of what Christ did, I can boldly go before the throne of God,
through a new and living way. If that's not the sanctuary, the holy of holies, I don't know what is.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
--Heb 12
Yep. No problem with that! :bigGrin: :dsunny: :dsunny:
To those on both "sides" (understanding) of this (and the similar John 11:26 thread) topic;
what do you believe Jesus' death did for us?
Quote from: jabcat on September 25, 2011, 08:06:28 AM
To those on both "sides" (understanding) of this (and the similar John 11:26 thread) topic;
what do you believe Jesus' death did for us?
Joh 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `
Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;
Quote from: jabcat on September 25, 2011, 08:06:28 AM
To those on both "sides" (understanding) of this (and the similar John 11:26 thread) topic;
what do you believe Jesus' death did for us?
Certainly, we work hard and struggle to live a godly life, because we place our confidence in the living God. He is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.[1Tim 4:10]
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. [1 John 5:13]
He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, [2 Cor 1:10]
.. to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--[John 1:12]
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.[Rom 4:25]
he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [Isa 53:5]
Very well said! Glory and Amen! :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 08:44:36 AM
Very well said! Glory and Amen! :bigGrin:
I've asked this before, but since we have moved off topic, Ill ask again.
When did Jesus Christ die?
Going to bed. I love you all in and through Jesus. God bless and may we all have a safe journey through this night! :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on September 25, 2011, 08:06:28 AM
To those on both "sides" (understanding) of this (and the similar John 11:26 thread) topic;
what do you believe Jesus' death did for us?
So, to take away our sins, and give us life.
Amen.
Quote from: jabcat on September 25, 2011, 08:06:28 AM
To those on both "sides" (understanding) of this (and the similar John 11:26 thread) topic;
what do you believe Jesus' death did for us?
Jesus' death...
paid the price for your resurrection from the dead!
As the wages of sin is death,... so if you actually lived on after death in a unbody state. Then the debt has not been paid as you never died, just your body! Jesus did not die for your physical body to be raised! He died for your sinning soul!
YOU! Your mind and thoughts to continue to exist in a new spiritual body! :2c:
Paul
I read the saul witch story and noticed that the sons also go the the same place as Samuel was in, I think the kingdom of hades, but maybe inside Abrahams bosom, maybe the gentiles go the other compartment, or perhaps this is the difference. That Israelites continue to live in hades, but non Israelites are not close enough to God to receive live energy and thus do not have life at all and thus do not know anything. In fact the scriptures often makes statements which do not apply to the Isrealites, e.g No man seeeketh the Lord, not one, but yet the prophets did seek the Lord.
the sign for Moses..the Lord said 'Put your hand inside your cloak' so Moses put his hand inside his cloak,and when he took it out it was leprous like snow
Now,put it back into your cloak,so Moses put his hand back into his cloak,and when he took it out it was restored.
we all shall return unto our Father[Bosom position] and be restored..like the above sign..
This,said the Lord;is so that they may beleive that the Lord,the God of their Father's- the God of Abraham,the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob
has appeared to you
the 'dead' no nothing[what is evil,what is good] because they don't beleive God,or the Son,of whom all knowledge and wisdom dwell.
When did christ die?
The time between the last nail being driven and the time of death,
are very important times. The death of Christ is the center of all time.
God is not constrained by the liner concepts of time.
God can be at the beginning or end of any thing at once.
The center of the beginning and ending of all things time wise is the cross.
The center of the time on the cross was the time between
which Christ was crucified. (nailed ), and the time Christ died.
Very many things happened during the central Time of the Cross.
Once the Christ was nailed to the cross .At that same time every law, rule, promise, of God was declared fulfilled and Satan declared defeated .
Yet Christ still be alive and the sin (singularly)
of the world still be held to the account of Man.
Jesus is then recorded to say Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani.
The sin of the world was unbelief the only Sin Jesus had to die for.
When belief is no longer a requirement it can be what it is.
A miraculous GIFT.
In time one miraculous gift leads to an other miraculous gift.
A year ago Jan 2012
I propably have 35 more years going forward.
Then I will be back at the center of time
Daj,
For a while, Sheila said things I just wasn't able to comprehend. Now you are the poster I find most incomprehensible.
I don't mean in a negative way. Many times I have a thought and the words I post to express that thought sometimes
sound incomprehensible to me when I read it back :laughing7:
For example, you wrote, "When belief is no longer a requirement it can be what it is." What does that mean? :dontknow:
my :2c: Hab akkuk 3;1718-it will finally that man's salvation does not have to do with any act of man..but God..
it means Father heard Jesus cry on the cross'Father forgive them they know not what they do"
It means the salvation of all men.those of little faith..those with no faith. It means the salvation of
ALL MEN IS THE GLORY OF GOD ALONE.
though the figtree does not bud,and there are no grapes on the vine,though the olive crop fails
and the fields produce no food,though there are no sheep in the pen,and no cattle in the stalls
YET..I WILL REJOICE IN THE LORD I WILL BE JOYFUL IN GOD MY SAVIOUR
Quote from: dajomaco on January 11, 2012, 10:07:41 PM
When did christ die?
The time between the last nail being driven and the time of death,
are very important times. The death of Christ is the center of all time.
God is not constrained by the liner concepts of time.
God can be at the beginning or end of any thing at once.
The center of the beginning and ending of all things time wise is the cross.
The center of the time on the cross was the time between
which Christ was crucified. (nailed ), and the time Christ died.
Very many things happened during the central Time of the Cross.
Once the Christ was nailed to the cross .At that same time every law, rule, promise, of God was declared fulfilled and Satan declared defeated .
Yet Christ still be alive and the sin (singularly)
of the world still be held to the account of Man.
Jesus is then recorded to say Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani.
The sin of the world was unbelief the only Sin Jesus had to die for.
When belief is no longer a requirement it can be what it is.
A miraculous GIFT.
In time one miraculous gift leads to an other miraculous gift.
Belief is the gift. It is the portal through which, in this age, we see the beauty of the Son of God. "Blessed are you, who having not seen, believe."
It is not so much a requirement as it is simply the means through which God delivers grace to the chosen.
and some..will have to die in unbelief,be resurrected and see Him to believe[receive free gift]
I think He 'helps them out with their unbelief......and when they fall..they will be 'helped' with a little help
Quote from: sheila on January 02, 2013, 02:22:48 AM
I think He 'helps them out with their unbelief......and when they fall..they will be 'helped' with a little help
Whenever anyone believes it is a free gift. After receiving forgiveness, or after enduring aionian kolassis. "Kolassis" does not pay for anything, it merely brings us to the point where we are ready to receive.
Look at Paul..as an example of one born premature into the faith and service of God in this realm.
as a former persecutor of the body..and as an example of an unbeliever[no faith] in Jesus Christ.
As he neared Damascus..suddenly a light[the Lord will come suddenly to the temple]from heaven
flashed around him. HE FELL TO THE GROUND and heard a voice. Saul,Saul,why do you
persecute me? Who are you,Lord? he replied. I AM JESUS WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING,he replied.
Now,GET UP! AND GO INTO THE CITY, AND YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO.....
God is not partial in His dealings with man. I reckon you can say God give him the gift of belief in Jesus
at that time.
I guess I'm having a hard time believing that those resurrected and standing in front of Jesus Christ
and God and all the angels..are refusing the free gift? :dontknow:
I just read the word sheila. There is too much from our Lords own mouth about kolassis in the ages to come to just ignore it because it feels good.
I don't believe they will be given the choice to refuse the free gift. Now is the time of the free gift. If there is no loss to be received for rejecting it- then in my mind the word of God is just full of unnecessary, inaccurate statements by ignorant men who needed someone like a well-educated preterist to instruct them.
If you read the entire word of God as a parable you still have to discount a large volume of scripture in the OT and the NT to believe that all kolassis takes place in this life, and that there is just a big welcome mat at the Great White Throne.
The words of Jesus to the Pharisees was "who warned you to flee from the wrath to come". The angels that left their proper domain are held in aidos chains under darkness for the judgement of the great day"
I read you words, there is no partiality with God- but the scripture that you quoted is about the wrath to come
"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."
(Rom 2:5-11)
If the entire bible is a parable then maybe this is just reaping in this life- but IMO that requires a huge stretch and much disregard of plain truth.
"Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;"
(Mat 25:34)
"Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;"
(Mat 25:41-42)
I realize we reign in life with Christ- AS A FIRST FRUITS Of THE AGES TO COME.
"and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us, even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus, for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast; for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk."(Eph 2:4-10)
Even as His grace extends beyond this age- and I believe it because the scriptures say so.....
So also I believe kolassis extends into the age- because the scriptures say so- I don't see it in terms of "You get 500 years in the lake of fire", "You get 10 years in the lake of fire" etc.
I see it as immersion in the light until all the darkness is consumed and I think it will be a very difficult experience- more so for some that for others.
The last adversary is death. We read that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years. I am guessing you parable-ize all that, and thats ok...........I just disagree :o)
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into gehenna fire. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
(Mat 18:9-11)
I also find it interesting that most of these references seem to apply to leaders and those who ought to have known better, not the ignorant- who I believe will be judged on a different basis.
The Scriptures seem ambivalent on the issue of whether or not the dead are conscious. I say no matter, nevermind.
IMO, The dead no nothing until they are raised for judgment.
Hi EW...my reasoning of unbelievers being saved is this. when Paul speaks of the mystery of the Church
as bride and Jesus Christ as groom.....and he speaks of a husband having an unbelieving wife.[for what do you know
you may save your unbelieving spouse] and especially since He died when we were still alienated
I reckon the son of God come in flesh and dying for all men's sins as the purchase price paid...and
Jesus Christ become very intimately connected with man when He come in the flesh. and all mankind
is composed of believing and unbelieving..but are all bought and paid for with His blood.That they are His
even though they don't believe it..as He is their rightful husband..though betrothed to an unbelieving spouse
also..the sword is a double edged sword..with the wrath portion needing to be applied [divided] accurately...
as also the revelation of the man of sin revealed to accurately apply His word. For this reason we are told to judge
nothing before the appointed time,lest we misjudge by the appearance of our eyes. For He does not judge
by the appearance of fleshly eyes...as from now on we are to know no man after the flesh..
and the lof is specifically prepared for the evil spirits..and the man of sin..is nothing other then the body
of man possessed of evil spirits..and that Christ seperates the evil spirits[divide to soul joint marrow]
and sends them off also..to lof. His wrath against men of sin[so named for demons possessing man]..
just as satan speaking through serpent is original..serpent...] He has always openly condemned
sin in the flesh[man of sin/evil spirit possession of man]..but has told man that God is not counting this against
them. For actually the knowing of good/evil that brings death is the becoming one[evil spirit joined to man]
'touch not my annointed" is in fact a statement of great displeasure that they should dwell in men..as
our body is the temple of His Holy spirit..and it is an abomination to Him..and He has written that anyone
that destroys the temple of God[man's body] God will destroy. And that sin[evil spirit] entering in the flesh
and bringing death is just that.
there is wrath...and as far as man's 'kolassis' 70 years of suffering evil in your own flesh and on the flesh of others
and your 'own iniquity/sin in your flesh' both tempting and rebuking you[the accusors of the brethern]
For the creature was subjected unto vanity..not of it's own will..but by the will of He who subjected it
in order...to set the whole creation free...into the glorious liberty of the sons of god.
There are free gifts..and there are rewards..there are 'works' burnt up..and works that remain......
only God's works will remain..and the works of the devil will be broken up and burned in LOF
Eccl 11;1 and Deuteronomy 24;19-22
p.s. I don't want to debate or argue about it..nor be divisive with any over it. and thank you all for bearing with
me...and I will be so glad when we are all finally in unity. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Samuel Cripps on January 13, 2013, 10:27:47 PM
The Scriptures seem ambivalent on the issue of whether or not the dead are conscious. I say no matter, nevermind.
Solomon said, "The living know that they will die, but the dead know not anything." Don't know chapter and though.
Ecc 9:5
Thanks, ded, I looked all through Ecclesiastes, and missed it.
I love Biblegateway - my favorite website for scripture
http://www.biblegateway.com/ (http://www.biblegateway.com/)
On my computer I use E-sword, on the net I use BibleGateway, For study in Hebrew and Greek I use Biblos.com
I don't believe they will be given the choice to refuse the free gift. Now is the time of the free gift. If there is no loss to be received for rejecting it- then in my mind the word of God is just full of unnecessary, inaccurate statements by ignorant men who needed someone like a well-educated preterits to instruct them.
The way I reconcile this issue in my mind is that each individuals eternal life,
starts the moment they first believe.
Every other moment that we believe (that God and I are in a perfect relationship
because of what Christ had accomplished on the Cross.) Every one of those moments are
added to the length of our eternal existence. Eternity is a long time, longer for some.
I grew in time rapidly when I first believed.
Then there were weeks and days when I did not grow in time at all.
The more the spirit of God reveals to me the power of the Son of God.
The less I watch my flesh. My flesh believes it is as important to pleasing God
as anything my spirit says is important.
When I ignore my flesh my Spirit spends hours at a time.
Every day is a new day to add to my eternal life.
If time is my heavenly reward.
It makes sense that the time I spend know is a gift.
"'I tell you, that to everyone who has, more will be given; and from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away
Therefore take care how you listen. For whoever has, more will be given to him; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him."
26. For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have more than enough. But from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Your reconciling of that in your mind, IMO, nevertheless rejects a large amount of scripture to the contrary, including the words of our Lord, who portrayed the consequence of aionian fire as being dire and to be avoided.
Altho we must be careful how we hear, we must hear everything that the word has to say about the subject.
who portrayed the consequence of aionian fire as being dire and to be avoided.
Is there anything more dire than the absence of God.
This is the most dire of circumstances.
At least if God is disciplining us it is to guarantee a result.
The complete absence of God is far more dire than his disciplining.
Some kids would rather stay with there evil task master parents
than be orphanes.
This is a very short time here and it will forever affect us there.
That sounds reasonable but the scriptures say something else. Aionian fire is not just a matter of what we endure as the consequence of our iniquity in this life. That is why we have the scriptures. IMO the scriptures(Jesus, Paul, Peter) clearly testify to aionian kolassis in the age to come.
Romans 2:5-11 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
Matthew 25:31-41 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
Rev. 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..........
11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mt 185 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
there are two men in a bed..two women at a hand mill.SIN HAS ALREADY BEEN CONDEMNED IN ALL FLESH..........
and GOD HAS BOUND ALL MEN UP TOGATHER IN SIN..in order to show grace to all.. If the first fruits are holy..so too
all the fruit..and this all the fruit..when I take away all their sin. And this is eternal life..when they know God..and
all will know me when I take away all thier sin..
this earth is stored up for fire...this old earth...that a new earth in which righteousness dwell occurr....
Heaven and earth will pass away..but not my words.
the end of mortality and the beginning of immortality is upon us.
I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW...He is going to burn up this old world..but not before He removes HIS LOT[all mankind
redeemed by His son for God's possession] make of the same lump of clay a vessel fitted for destruction and a
a vessel fitted for glory.
correction in heaven yes there is. there are some not so pleasant jobs up there......[greive not His holy spirit] that bring
greif to the angels..like being guardians for the men involved in the worst type of sin and you can become a pillar of salt
real quick for looking back and longing for this corrupt world..you will be well seasoned lil angels...when you wittness
as a steady diet in heaven all the continous horrific evil abuse on earth..til you concur[or agree with Father's judgement]
He knows how to make you change your mind.
we were not told to reckon this body undergoing this death as good as dead for nothing. But who will deliver us?
carnal ole Adam in corruption is a dead man..the old order will have passed away. I make all things NEW!
Another thing LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF THE OFFENSE[GOD IS LOVE] tell you who does..though..satan..thrown down
from heaven..who accusses the brothers day and night before the LORD[watch this adversary in action on the Pharisees
and sadducees in Jesus day] constant nit-picking,condemning,finger pointing etc. at those who Jesus forgave the sins of.
....when these spirits of the accusor/temptor is thrown into lof..who will be left to accuse or tempt?
Discipline
IMO To discipline you must hold the thought that whom ever or what ever you are disciplining will change as a result of your disciplining them.
Therefore disciplining someone is for their sake.
If we give some one the Death sentence for something they have done.
It is not punishment as much as it is a cautionary tale for you who are living
that it is a deterrent against others doing the same.
The punishment of a people by their God.
A sovereign God who punishes (not to be confused with discipline)
Is a monster Who for his good pleasure torments for no other reason than it pleases him.
Eternal torment.
That is why we have the scriptures. IMO the scriptures(Jesus, Paul, Peter) clearly testify to aionian kolassis in the age to come.
If you are saying that in the age to come God will discipline.
I agree if the discipline will extract a change of heart.
IMO any part of God that requires any sort of punishment
that he wants to mead out to his creation.
Was already done on the CROSS.
I reject absolutely any form of eternal torment.
I refuse to go back down that road.
Satan is accusing "the brethren" before the thron of Gopd night and day.
He is not accusing the sons of disobedience, nor is he accusing the principalities and powers, rulers of hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms.
There conversions are for the ages to come.
In this age it is for those who have been chosen to recieve the grace of God and become children of God, sons of obedience so to speak, and as strangers in a strange land, aliens among a wicked and perverse generation, we stand as wiotnmesses to the grace of God that will be revealed in the ages to come.
The restoration of all things is "an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma) of times." Pleroma is the word used in the scripture "filled up to all the fulness of God".
This will not occur until the last enemy is subjected, at the end of time, when the times are completed. This is what I believe the scriptures show in the clear solid ground of the word. Interpretations of less clear words are great, and enlightening, but IMO nothing you have shared out of the word weighs on these other clear statements that I have been presenting.
IMO, To assume that the ENTIRE BODY OF SCRIPTURE is allegorical is and error, and the clear statements of the word have to be integrated with the interpretive prophecies by the spirit before one can put their foot down on it as foundational.
He is not accusing the sons of disobediance..because 'he' is the ruler of the sons of disobediance=see offspring
of vipers on Pharisee's and sadducees..per John the Baptist testimony and Jesus' wittness.
he is not accusing the principalities and powers and rulers because 'he' is the principalities and powers and rulers=see temptation
of Jesus..all these are mine..do one act of worship and I'll give them to you.
he is not accusing the hosts of wickedness in heavenly places because he is the hosts of wickedness in heavenly places
=see Jesus turned over to Pilate by Jerusalem temple high priest and sanhedren court..and Jesus words..'you would
have no power over me unless it was given to you from above[heavenly hosts of wickedness/sanhedren/high priest]
he that turned me over to you has greater sin. =satan seed/offspring of viper on Pharisees,sadducees,sanhedren etc.
.
THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH APPROACHES..the end of sin and the beginning of immortality. Deliverance draws
nigh...........the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God. What? people think God's going to resurrect
the dead back into a body of sin/weakness to be taught of men on this earth? for eons? no no no satan would like that
it wou ld be an indefintie stay of execution for him. What? this world continue for eons with the evil contrast tool?
Satan is angry because he knows his time is short..do you?
Spiritual principles are foundational. Fundamental truth and law doctrine that others are built upon. Allegories=a story
in which people things and happenings have a hidden or symbolic meaning; allegories are used for teaching to explain
IDEAS,MORAL PRINCIPLES,etc. sign,symbol. The scriptures are full of symbols,allegories and parabolic teachings...
His thoughts are higher than man's and He uses signs,symbols allegories and parables to teach. People need to realize
this. Holy spirit also uses symbology,parables to get an idea'truth' to us. See Peter's vision with the sheet let down
from heaven..then taken back up 3 times...what 3 times because Peter denied Him 3 times..or 3 wittnesses.? Or could it
possibly also mean men and men with little understanding[as beasts] being sown in the earth and Peter to kill that which
is carnal in the gentile believers and they receive understanding,too and Holy spirit to rise/return,go back up into heaven
from whence they come. There are layers[foundations] and layers of truth in parables and allegories. The simpilest truth
in the sheet coming down allegory would be..it is not what enters a man's mouth that makes him defiled,but what comes
out of his heart. A higher understanding would be 'gospel of salvation to gentiles" and a third the truth that God sowed men
in this earth a natural body to be raised a spiritual body.
when Peter cursed and denied Jesus those three times..could it be the vision was showing all men were clean because
of Christ's sacrifice..and that blessings and curses should not be coming out of the same mouth[especially a vessel of mercy]
that you could not say you loved God,who you could not see..and curse men in his image?
a simple allegory/parable..is a deep spiritual spring of living water. IT IS WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH Drink them in and
out of your belly will come living waters.
There are many things that "could be". :dontknow: Could it be that the word is clear on some things and does not overturn itself by allegory?
Yeah Sheila! There are so many layers of meaning in the scriptures, it's so amazing.
I used to wonder why the heck He always spoke in parables. I'm starting to get it now lol.
IMO, To assume that the ENTIRE BODY OF SCRIPTURE is allegorical is and error, and the clear statements of the word have to be integrated with the interpretive prophecies by the spirit before one can put their foot down on it as foundational.
When I first believed Jesus was the foundation.
I at that moment new the Entire Body Of Scriptures.
Then I went to church.
They taught me to really know God I must consider the Entire Body Of Scriptures.
As they had................. done so I left.
When you know Jesus through the Spirit
you already know The Entire Body Of Scriptures.
Jesus is the Entire Body Of Scriptures.
This leaves me free to discuss all the different interpretations of the written word.
as we are here.
wow..profound
Sounds like circular reasoning to me.
We all claim to know Jesus. We all have the scriptures. Are you claiming special revelatory knowledge? If not, the this is a blog for discussion moderated by the scriptures- those who know them should use them, in context and to the point of the discussion. It is not profitable talk about knowing the whole body of scriptures while avoiding scriptural discussion. Circular prophetic declarations only work on sites for prophetic declarations.
This is not one of those.
If all of us know the Lord, then all you are saying to me is "I know because I know" or, "I know because I know the Lord better than anyone who disagrees with me".
I accept that you know the Lord. In fact, I accept that we all know the Lord, but I have been running into prophetic declarations since before most of the people on this board were born- and I am not impressed unless they have shown themselves humble enough to respond to the scriptures with the scriptures. Those who won't usually turn out to be just too undisciplined to address the opinions of their brethren with the word of God.
No one here is granted any superior revelatory status.
We all stand on even ground with the scriptures as the medium of communication. That is how the site works. If someone wants to open a sub-site for prophetic declarations not accompanied by disclaimers like IMO, or, "it is written", they could ask the owner of the site to open such a sub-forum.
That God punishes the wicked is a discipline of God. There is no one here claiming God hurts people for the sake of hurting them, but, "all discipline is for the moment unpleasant but IN THE END it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness"
The only point in contention here, as I understand it, is that you are saying that there is no kolassis in the age to come, that the lake of fire and gehenna are all "in the now". So you contend that God can discipline "in the now" but to do so "in the olam" would be "monstrous".
This is totally illogical. It doesnt just void many scriptures, it is just not a logical theory. If you want to argue logic, as opposed to the scriptures, one fact has to "empirically" build on another consistently.
If God can discipline and punish now then He may also do the same "in the age to come". It does not make Him a monster, since he "punished King Saul", He "punished" Annias and Saphira and He "punished" Aaron's sons among others, IN THIS AGE.
It may take some "punishment" before the Adversary bows the knee. These things do not all hinge on whether a "fulfilled view" or a "historical view" is taken. They simply hinge on whether Paul knew what he was talking about because HE DID NOT DEFINE ALL THESE THINGS IN ALLEGORY.
You insist that no one who dies in their iniquity in this age will experience kolassis in the age to come- but the scriptures seem to indicate otherwise in clear terms that I have yet to see anyone offer any explanation to other than prophetic interpretations.
I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________
So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.
This is Literal interpretation! Does anybody else see a problem?
Quote from: reFORMer on January 16, 2013, 08:51:24 AM
I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________
So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.
This is Literal interpretation! Does anybody else see a problem?
Literal? Figurative? Prophetic? The context is always a good clue. :declare:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 13, 2013, 10:48:16 PM
IMO, The dead no nothing until they are raised for judgment.
:iagree: :dsunny:
Lol reF!
And following this line of reasoning, many of them also likely didn't have eyes or hands because Jesus told them to pluck them out and cut them off if they caused them to sin. :doh:
How about when Moses was beating around the bush that was on fire yet was NOT consumed? :Peace2:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 16, 2013, 08:51:24 AM
I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________
So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.
This is Literal interpretation! Do anybody else see a problem?
I havent said anything about literal interpretaion as to what the "kolassis" is. I simply am saying that there is a great body of scripture that CAN be read literally that indicates their is "kolassis" in the age to come. It is LITERAL that the tongues of fire and the Spirit that fell on Pentecost produced GLORY, not kolassis.
Your responses as usual, have no scripture in thems in them that address the verses I posted, only umerited and illogical sarcasm. If you were interested in opening my eyes perhaps you would use a more reasonable means of "mid-rash" :o)
Thank you eagles way I think that your response was a great response.
I like the idea exploring an area of scripture that while important is not something that will cause separation.
The points you make are valid, after all there is no personnel revelations.
Scriptures say what scriptures say.
I was asked not to return to my home church.
I had expressed to them that I had been given a revelation by the Spirit of God
that there was no eternal torment.
They said We all claim to know Jesus. We all have the scriptures. Are you claiming special revelatory knowledge?
I my self had not fully explored the scriptures in this area.
The pastor said something like this.
I accept that you know the Lord. In fact, I accept that we all know the Lord, but I have been running into prophetic declarations since before most of the people in this church were born- and I am not impressed unless they have shown themselves humble enough to respond to the scriptures with the scriptures. Those who won't usually turn out to be just too undisciplined to address the opinions of their brethren with the word of God.
So I left and on the way out he was yelling.
No one here is granted any superior revelatory status.
I stated in my post
If you are saying that in the age to come God will discipline.
I agree if the discipline will extract a change of heart.
The only point in contention here, as I understand it, is that you are saying that there is no kolassis in the age to come, that the lake of fire and gehenna are all "in the now". So you contend that God can discipline "in the now" but to do so "in the olam" would be "monstrous".
We have no point of contention here .
You were just confused on what I said.
I said I agree.
But if you want a point of contention here's one.
You can not know what it will be like in the age to come by reading scriptures.
You can only know by Divine Revelation.
How do I know this The Spirit of God told me.
what was dire about it? was death in dire straits when it was consumed in the lof? the cloven tongues as of fire
shows we need to seperate what is consumed of the fire from what is not.And He shall seperate
what abideth and what does not. a son abideth forever..a temporal state passes away
we know that which is eternal abideth..never the temporal. suffering loss...to me those that suffer loss
are as those who had not..but what they thought they had[corruption] was lost......such as...the light/life that
they thought they had..was really death[if the light that be in ye be darkness,how great is that darkness]as dead in
tresspass and sin. satan transforming himself into an angel of light
When I first believed Jesus was the foundation.
I at that moment new the Entire Body Of Scriptures.
Is there a difference between knowing scriptures,
and knowing the law and the prophets
But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating through the Scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah.
Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David spoke in advance about Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
After this, when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished that the Scripture might be fulfilled, He said, "I'm thirsty!"
Jesus answered them, "You are deceived, because you don't know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Jesus answered them, "Isn't it written in your scripture, I said, you are gods?
So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. And they believed the Scripture and the statement Jesus had made.
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This came from the Lord and is wonderful in our eyes?
After arranging a day with him, many came to him at his lodging. From dawn to dusk he expounded and witnessed about the kingdom of God. He tried to persuade them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the One Moses wrote about in the Law (and so did the prophets): Jesus the son of Joseph, from Nazareth!"
Dajomaco said, "When I first believed Jesus was the foundation.
I at that moment new the Entire Body Of Scriptures."
Wow! I wish I could say that. I still don't know "the entire body of scriptures." :doh:
enough of this backbiting . Loving your brother as yourself does not include backbiting and mocking and belittling.
people want to talk about judgement and kolassis. every word out of our mouths we have to give an account for.
Judgement begins at the house of the Lord.
I wasn't Sheila. I sincerely wish it had happened to me like that...unless you were referring to someone else.
I assume you meant me since it was immediately after I wrote my post.
If anyone is offended i apologise for I meant none.
Quote from: sheila on January 16, 2013, 10:38:15 PM
enough of this backbiting . Loving your brother as yourself does not include backbiting and mocking and belittling.
people want to talk about judgement and kolassis. every word out of our mouths we have to give an account for.
Judgement begins at the house of the Lord.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Point taken. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I so appreciate you. :HeartThrob:
D ed2 it did appear to me that you were mocking. There have been some 'less than stellar' conversations on the board
as of late, and hopefully,we that say we know Christ, must do and say nothing out of contentiousness. Pr 28;25
Mocking does offend me,as disrespect for one another.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2013, 08:05:23 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on January 16, 2013, 08:51:24 AM
I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________
So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.
This is Literal interpretation! Do anybody else see a problem?
I havent said anything about literal interpretaion as to what the "kolassis" is. I simply am saying that there is a great body of scripture that CAN be read literally that indicates their is "kolassis" in the age to come. It is LITERAL that the tongues of fire and the Spirit that fell on Pentecost produced GLORY, not kolassis.
Your responses as usual, have no scripture in thems in them that address the verses I posted, only umerited and illogical sarcasm. If you were interested in opening my eyes perhaps you would use a more reasonable means of "mid-rash" :o)
Dear brother,
We're far into the 4th page of this topic/thread. It is quite usual for there to be many side paths taken. I wasn't thinking of you personally or the overall subject of this topic when I posted, except to wonder if it was not so appropriate here. Maybe I should put it in another topic, I thought. I was reacting to others promoting Literalism (and their own definition of literal too) as THE way, the gold standard of interpreting scripture, even to the rejection of anything else.
The little over-literalized vignette above is very useful when dealing with those who insist the fire of the lake of fire has to be literal, defined as in the physical realm (carnal) and that it has to be the greatest evil possible to imagine. This is "outer court" understanding. Of the virgins, concubines, or queens, because it is not born of intimacy with God and it is not a conception of His word, it is the virginal realm at best, not 100, nor 60, but 30-fold. Sometimes literalism is in another game altogether, a "zero-fold" carnal imagination. But then the wrong symbolic reading is equally fruitless and misleading.
As a person, I feel very off-topic anyhow. I have some sort of health issue that seems the rustle of the black-hood on the shirtless man with an axe. Still, our battle is not with flesh and blood. I wonder at the obvious efforts made on this website to get others to think like ourselves. I'm certain the deeply entrenched idea that, "The more others think like I do, the more right they'll be" has to be wrong; but, I don't know how to apply this to myself.
I really hate it when I offend others. I guess I just want to be loved.
James
Praying for you reF. I'll guess John is too. :HeartThrob:
:o) I luv ya James. Its no big deal to me and I am no absolute literalist by any means, I get accused of being a preterist when I read Revelations, and a literalist when I read Paul and the Gospels. I just happen to believe some of the word is literal and it all needs to be taken into account. The typology is as important to me in understanding the literal as the literal is in understanding the typology, IMO one without the other is like a one legged frog. :eek:
So then, the dead know nothing as the Bible says in Ezekiel? (That should get us back on track)
No, that's just what it says, it doesn't mean that :o)
I saw an interesting post on that once. The author stated that one verse is in context of earthly/temporal matters. IMO, a perspective worth considering, especially considering many other scrips. :2c:
I considered that but then there is the question of the dead "sleeping" and we aren't concious when we sleep.
...and Samuel complaining about being awakened after he had died.
It's why we say "we had to put our animal to sleep, rather then "we killed them and sent them to a fiery hell" :doh: :laugh:
It's wonderful that we've been buried with Christ; for, "The dead know nothing." Now at rest, we can come to God without needing our heads to be stuffed and overflowing with right thinking.
Just some ideas and glimpses of things that may or may not be solid.
I see it that way, James. From the earthly perspective we sleep(as time passes within the veil). From the heavenly perspective we die in one moment and wake up in the next moment on the other side of the veil("to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", "I long put off this mortal clothing and to be clothed upon with my heavenly tent".
I also think it's possible that the overcomers do not sleep, "Not that I have already attained, but I press towards the mark of the prize(reward) of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, if by any means I might attain to the resurrection(exanastasis, "out resurrection") from amongst the dead, not that I have already attained it...
exanastasis is used only this one time, by Paul- like he coined the word himself, and it means, according to my brandt gingrich Lexicon - "out resurrection" from amongst the dead(sleepers?)
Awake O sleeper and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you. Walk as children of the day and you will not be taken by the thief(death)
One was taken, one was left(death is the taker, not the rapture).....two verses later "As it was in the days of Noah......They did not understand until the door closed and they were all taken away(into death)
Here I think Paul is talking of the first resurrection- for overcomers(spirits of righteous men made perfect)
If we walk in the light and continue faithful to the end we will be in the first resurrection, the "clouds" surrounding His appearing being those who "finished the course"... "Well done my good and faithful servant" (He is coming in the clouds and His reward is with Him).
Some will lose their reward(first res, overcomers inheritance ad be "saved as through fire" (Go before the great white throne second death, lake of fire, works "burned up, lose their reward".
But IMO, we were raised to walk in the newness of life, we aren't still dead and/sleeping :Peace2:
I agree with your opinion, for those are awake :o). Not everyone who believes remains awake, or Paul would not have exhorted them to "Awake! and Rise From The Dead!"
"I know your works, that you have a name that lives, yet you are dead"
The Laodiceans for instance, were sleeping at their watch, when John warned them in revelations, as were certain followers of the doctrine of the Nicolaitains and the false prophetess Jezebel.
Or as James said, "Cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded". Draw near to God and He will draw near to you", and, "blessed is the man who endures under trial, for after he has overcome he will obtain the crown of life".
Quote from: ReformerSo, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.
This is Literal interpretation! Do anybody else see a problem?
Actually, literalism is reading that the fire is burning the bush and the bush is not consumed, and believing that description, even though it defies all experience and common sense.
It is believing what God says, literally.
The same thing happens with the Apostles at Pentecost.
Now I'm sure you could also come up with all kinds of spiritual explanations for what was going on with that bush, as well. And, that would also be fine, assuming they were instructive and useful to yourself and others.
That's what's so wonderful about the Bible.
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: ReformerSo, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground. Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.
This is Literal interpretation! Do anybody else see a problem?
Actually, literalism is reading that the fire is burning the bush and the bush is not consumed, and believing that description, even though it defies all experience and common sense.
It is believing what God says, literally.
The same thing happens with the Apostles at Pentecost.
Now I'm sure you could also come up with all kinds of spiritual explanations for what was going on with that bush, as well. And, that would also be fine, assuming they were instructive and useful to yourself and others.
That's what's so wonderful about the Bible.
Exactly. The record of Acts has nowhere within it any literal record or allegorical inference of anyone screaming and blistering from any fire. That interpretation would not be an "interpretation", it would just be a "re-writing" of the literal history which shows only the glory and power and grace of God being revealed.
While I was with you, I decided to deal with only one subject—Jesus Christ, who was crucified.
I didn't think it was a good idea to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
I made up my mind that while I was with you I would speak of nothing except
Jesus Christ and of His death on the cross.
IMO Paul new that if you had been given the gift of understanding this one act
the Cross. Who authored it, Who was involved.
There is only one thing to know IPO.
To know Jesus Christ is to be alive forever. (forever starts exactly when believe it).
The dead who do not know Jesus are dead.
The living who do not know Jesus are already dead.
When we deal with different aspects of the whole person we have things
and notions that are not logical. The living dead.
Did God blow the breath of Live on the dust more than once.
The spirit of live is eternal .
How many Great Great Fathers of and guardians of the written word.
Only new Christ and him crucified?
Entire Body Of Scriptures
1. What will it benefit a man if he gains the whole world yet loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2013, 07:20:42 AM
Are you claiming special revelatory knowledge?
Never. I think at the end of the day, the most honest approach to discussing Scripture is with the disclaimer of "this is my current understanding of what this passage says."
There have been many times when I *thought* the meaning of something was clear, only to be corrected by God as He showed me the real-life application of a passage as I was walking it out and He was showing me how it applied to my current circumstances and the decisions I needed to make.
Scripture is an interesting thing in that it refuses to be divorced from reality. It's no use discussing theoretical concepts, because God neither exists, nor operates, in theory. The Bible always deals with reality.
And as that goes, because there are aspects of reality none of us have ever experienced, we can provide no authoritative teaching on it. We can share our understanding, our opinions and our beliefs. And, as those go, one is as valid as the other, really.
Scripture is full of allegories, pictures and attempts at descriptions of God by finite human beings that come nowhere close to the actual reality of who God actually is, because how can the finite understand the infinite? But, it gives us enough of a general idea to live our lives here in humility and obedience to Him.
To use the burning bush example: It's not about the bush or the fire. It's about God dealing with Moses, getting his attention and equipping him for the job that needed to be done. Scripture is about GOD dealing with PEOPLE, to get us to ACT. If we're not spurned to ACTION, then we're missing the whole thing I believe.
Scriptures are for the living.
Specifically for the person reading them.
You can NOT take scriptures and heal some one with them.
You can NOT take scriptures and make them do anything
other than what they were created to do.
That is to point you toward Jesus.
Jesus did many signs and wonders so that we might believe.
Scriptures is just that a sign.
Our egos and emotions are the only realty.
There is only one substance in the universe and that is LOVE
Gods ego and emotions can only be learned through his Son.
Today is a perfect day to experiment with the substance of LOVE
When the day is done look at your scriptures
and see if they point to anything other than.
The LOVE that GOD THE FATHER pours out on his SON
JESUS.
The LOVE that the TRUE SON OF GOD has for his FATHER,
Is so wondrous . HOLY SPIRIT calls me a child of this same FATHER.
GOD adopted me. The SON OF GOD went on along and arduous journey
in a foreign land to bring me back safely.
The journey took a toll .That toll was the death of the first member of
GOD THE FATHERS family ADAM.
The HOLY SPIRIT declares to me that I AM now a SON OF GOD.
The paper work for the adoption will follow.
Quote from: Dani H on January 17, 2013, 09:24:18 PM
Scripture is full of allegories, pictures and attempts at descriptions of God by finite human beings that come nowhere close to the actual reality of who God actually is, because how can the finite understand the infinite? But, it gives us enough of a general idea to live our lives here in humility and obedience to Him.
I believe that here-and-now human language is inadequate to express the things of God fully, and that is why Jesus had to beat around the bush a bit, and say things like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is
like..."
Right Laz.-
"If you can't understand when I speak of earthly things,
how will it be when I speak of heavenly things?"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 17, 2013, 10:40:18 PM
I believe that here-and-now human language is inadequate to express the things of God fully, and that is why Jesus had to beat around the bush a bit, and say things like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."
Like explaining the color blue to a blind person. *nods*
You can get somewhat close and convey a general meaning, but some things just have to be experienced to be fully understood.
"Our egos and emotions are the only realty." Quote
Our egos and emotions may be our only reality if we are limited by them or trapped within them, but doubt that they are the only reality.
......that you may be one, even as I and the Father are one. Jesus prayer that we would be unlimited in our unity is the destination. Many vistas that extend way beyond our emotions and egos are unveiled along the way.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 18, 2013, 02:33:47 AM
"Our egos and emotions are the only realty." Quote
Our egos and emotions may be our only reality if we are limited by them or trapped within them, but doubt that they are the only reality.
......that you may be one, even as I and the Father are one. Jesus prayer that we would be unlimited in our unity is the destination. Many vistas that extend way beyond our emotions and egos are unveiled along the way.
Eagles you and I will be one in reality.
When our egos and emotions are willing to allow the reality that we are already one.
Until then
Our egos and emotions are the only realty.
By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God.
That's my reality.
My ego plays only a small and diminishing part in it. My emotions are just the reflexes of my heart and mind, thank God!
Quote from: eaglesway on January 18, 2013, 05:32:33 AM
By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God.
That's my reality.
My ego plays only a small and diminishing part in it. My emotions are just the reflexes of my heart and mind, thank God!
Faith
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
When your talking through faith your reality is unseen.
I was talking about a seen reality.
You need an Ego to see this reality
I see no basis in the scriptures or in my experience for your position.....
When Isaiah saw the Lord his ego was slain"Woe unto me I am a man of unclean lips". When Job saw the Lord he said, "My ears had heard but now my eyes have seen and I abhor myself"- when previously he had been upholding his righteousess.
Maybe our definition of ego is different.
I was using the term Ego as the self, seeing itself. (in reality)
Again, perhaps even though it is Solomon, a man of great wisdom, wisdom given to him by his Lord tho in the OT and not the NT, wrote..Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
It is only a matter of acceptance and we will learn from there. :HeartThrob:
I always thought the ego was blind to itself until mirrored in the face of God and then it is destroyed.
Me to. :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 23, 2013, 05:40:34 AM
I always thought the ego was blind to itself until mirrored in the face of God and then it is destroyed.
We're going to die," he said to his wife, "because we have seen God!"
not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God. He has seen the Father.
No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God remains in us and His love is perfected in us.
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother he has seen cannot love the God he has not seen.
Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.
Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
(2Co 3:12-18)
Jesus eyes are as flames of fire. Anyone who has looked into those eyes has seen God, the consuming fire. "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father."
For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
(2Co 4:6,7)
The ego, as I see it, is chaff. The new creation, created in the image of Christ is the wheat. "Seeing Him", disarms us- as His cross disarmed the principalities and powers- and it is the disarming that makes us, as earthen vessels, fit to bear about in these clay pots, the divine nature of Messiah and the shining glory of God.
God have mercy on us, we are all still so well armed.
The power to surrender is the greatest connection to power.
True power, the power of Love Hope Faith.
Amen