Will

[VineBranch]

:Oops:

Ah, I imagine it'll carry right on along.  :)

You mean ... (wait for it) Like it had a will of its own? :pointlaugh:

[eaglesway]

lovely

[dajomaco]

The tree I look at is over one hundred years old.
I know that it was Gods will that it be there.
I think scriptures were meant to be read by an individual.
Like the tree that has no will to move unless God moves it with the wind.
Or with my will I cut it down.
In the whole universe I am the only one with free will when relating to GOD.

[micah7:9]

Yes, perhaps. :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

I think the verse that does away with free will for me is (Phil. 2:13) For IT IS GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.

If our wills are a product of God working in us and everything we do is because God is working in us to do of his good pleasure, pray tell where does our seperate wills fit in all of this?

It seems that some feel that God won't, or can't operate, or he needs our wills to be active before he makes a decision or acts accordingly...by the way, where did we get our wills?

If God allows us to make our own decisions whether right or wrong, before he steps in wouldn't that allow for mistakes that God would have to correct, or that would cost us dearly? What if that mistake we made cost us our life, who do we blame for it, ourselves, or God for not stepping in?  Us humans might do this with our children but I don't see God doing it.

I was thinking about Jesus and what he said, "but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak". Jesus also said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING".  Did the Father let Jesus make decisions about certain things? After all he was the only begotten Son of God.

There is a lot to all of this that I think none of us will ever really know, at least in this lifetime.

CHB

[eaglesway]

I understand all these philosophical arguments(from both sides) and there is really no resolving them. The problem as I see it is that the scriptures present many verses attending the will of man and his accountability for the use of it- as well as many verses attending to the sovereignty of God.

Everyone needs to resolve this  paradox in their own heart and mine and in their own way- but the scriptures should be integrated in whatever view we take because they certainly do not oppose themselves.

Sometimes I think we are looking at the same subject from two different levels, or perspectives, one, from time and effect and action and reaction, the "simple wisdom of living" that we are counseled with from the scripture----and the other from the finished work of God in eternity.

I find it difficult to understand how anyone can place those two views in opposition to one another and I think they integrate perfectly at a point where all of us must admit we see through a glass darkly.

The only reason I continue to discuss it is that when we say one view or the other is "completely false" or whatever ..... we are claiming to have(IMO) an understanding that supersedes the scriptures- since the scriptures support elements of both views in measures and degrees.

At this point however, I don't think any fruitful discussion can be had based on "this verse" or "that verse" -the subject is too complex for that and involves soooo many verses of scripture.

Let's all write our books about it, exchange them, and then return to the discussion in a few years  :Peace2:

[Molly]

God is to man is as man is to horse. :winkgrin:



A stallion needs us as a mirror to find out what he is born for.

Authentic being with a horse is based on a positive, authentic approach to life.

What is it all about?

A gelding needs most of all love

A mare needs most of all respect.

A stallion needs most of all YOU!  on the highest possible level of peace.

Closeness to a horse comes only from closeness to one's inner self.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhNXt_c2nXw


The result?


Confidence, collection, balance, and a high expression of liberty [which comes from the partnership].

[eaglesway]

A Horse With No Name

http://youtu.be/zSAJ0l4OBHM

On the first part of the journey,
I was looking at all the life.
There were plants and birds. and rocks and things,
There was sand and hills and rings.
The first thing I met, was a fly with a buzz,
And the sky, with no clouds.
The heat was hot, and the ground was dry,
But the air was full of sound.

I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.
La, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
La, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la

After two days, in the desert sun,
My skin began to turn red.
After three days, in the desert fun,
I was looking at a river bed.
And the story it told, of a river that flowed,
Made me sad to think it was dead.

You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.
La la, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
La la, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la

After nine days, I let the horse run free,
'Cause the desert had turned to sea.
There were plants and birds, and rocks and things,
There was sand and hills and rings.
The ocean is a desert, with its life underground,
And a perfect disguise above.
Under the cities lies, a heart made of ground,
But the humans will give no love.

You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.

[dajomaco]

When scriptures seemingly butt heads.
Sometimes we need a different way to see the scriptures.
For myself I imagine how the seemingly head butting scriptures,
can be made to mesh together. Or as some call it philosophy.

Adam had free will before the creation of Eve.

So the LORD God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

[dajomaco]

I don't think when God brought the animals past Adam that Adam judged them
good or evil. He just named them using his free will .
God actually waited for Adam to express his free will.
In my opinion God was pleased with Adam having a free will.
God was so pleased with Adam he made Eve with the same free will.

In My OpinionYou can only have free will if you DO NOT have the knowledge of good and evil.

[eaglesway]

So, the closer you get to walking in the spirit (the wind blows where it wills)

The freer you get (glorious liberty of the children of God) :o)

[VineBranch]

So, the closer you get to walking in the spirit (the wind blows where it wills)

The freer you get (glorious liberty of the children of God) :o)

Well said Eagle.

We might then say something like, free will is experience you get that allows you to simply walk away from man-made choices.

[eaglesway]

Yes, and perhaps we could say when our will is in harmony with God's, it is finally free.

[micah7:9]

I think the verse that does away with free will for me is (Phil. 2:13) For IT IS GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.

If our wills are a product of God working in us and everything we do is because God is working in us to do of his good pleasure, pray tell where does our seperate wills fit in all of this?

It seems that some feel that God won't, or can't operate, or he needs our wills to be active before he makes a decision or acts accordingly...by the way, where did we get our wills?

If God allows us to make our own decisions whether right or wrong, before he steps in wouldn't that allow for mistakes that God would have to correct, or that would cost us dearly? What if that mistake we made cost us our life, who do we blame for it, ourselves, or God for not stepping in?  Us humans might do this with our children but I don't see God doing it.

I was thinking about Jesus and what he said, "but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak". Jesus also said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING".  Did the Father let Jesus make decisions about certain things? After all he was the only begotten Son of God.

There is a lot to all of this that I think none of us will ever really know, at least in this lifetime.

CHB

VERY well said. It would seem that man considers his wisdom pretty high when attempting to reason and discern "these philosophical arguments"(where in lies the problem)  I believe your report CHB when you state Paul, (Phil. 2:13) For IT IS GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.
Should we start at point A..a truth, FOR IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH in you.... and build on that rather than
... okay lets figure out a way to get God out of certain situations in our walk that just don't seem like God would have a hand in "whatever"it maybe.
I personally have no problem with God being the sole representative who takes full responsibility for whatever occurs with HIS CREATION. He created, made, formed EVERYTHING and I do not believe He has made a mistake since He began. And Paul also wrote Col.1:17 17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.

[VineBranch]

Yes, and perhaps we could say when our will is in harmony with God's, it is finally free.

So then, would you agree it is not so much Free-Will, as Freeded-Will.  I suffer under the melancholy which comes from having to make petty decisions about the superficial things this life calls important.  What I really wish is to be absorbed by God's will and therefore be totally free to be totally about Him. 

I think I'm getting a glimmering of what Christ meant when He said that those freed by Him were free indeed;  it's not that we are free to make an endless stream of decisions which ultimately wind up being situational:  black shoes or brown, yellow dress or blue, where to go on vacation, which college.  It's knowing that the freedom comes from it not being MY decision.  Just put your decision in God's hand and choose.  You have been freed from the notion of Free-Will.

If this sounds totally stupid and I missed it again, I beg your forgiveness for having wasted the time you took to read this.  It just rings so true.

[dajomaco]

I do not mean this question in a sarcastic way.
I have been reading the first 3 chapters of Genesis.
for quite awhile.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth,[h] and the creatures that crawl on the earth."

No! You will not die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "In fact, God knows that when[a] you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."

How could God know the difference between good and evil.
He is God
There would be nothing God could do that was evil.
Wow I'm God but I better not do that because it is evil.
Adam and Eve eating from the tree gave God the knowledge of good and evil.

Satan who can not tell the truth who can only lie said this.

In fact, God knows that when[a] you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

I know eventually when I am completely transformed into the image of Jesus
and we are all one in one all in all. There will only be LOVE .
The knowledge of good and evil will be as it was in the beginning
purposely unknown by God as far as the east is from the west.

[VineBranch]

Satan who can not tell the truth who can only lie said this.

Of course Satan can tell the truth.  If it suits his purpose to tell the the truth he does, if not he lies.  I have seen people say a truth to hide a lie lots of times.  In fact, I even made up a word for this action.

[dajomaco]

Satan who can not tell the truth who can only lie said this.

Of course Satan can tell the truth.  If it suits his purpose to tell the the truth he does, if not he lies.  I have seen people say a truth to hide a lie lots of times.  In fact, I even made up a word for this action.

I have not written to you because you don't know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth.

[dajomaco]

He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.

[ded2daworld]

I wonder if one can say a truth but in a way that manipulates another to believing what is not true?
If truth is spoken to intentionally cause harm or upset, is it the same as a lie?

[micah7:9]

I wonder if one can say a truth but in a way that manipulates another to believing what is not true?
If truth is spoken to intentionally cause harm or upset, is it the same as a lie?

That's a little deep for me, can you maybe un-fuddle me? :sigh:

[ded2daworld]

E.G. My wife says, "Do you love me?"
I shrug my shoulders, look away from her and sneeringly say, "Yeah, sure."

I have told the truth and a hidden lie simultaneously.

Not this has ever happened to me personally :Chinscratch: :Peace2:

[dajomaco]

no lie comes from the truth.

No truth hides a lie

[dajomaco]

A lie in reality is the expression of no faith and is a sin.

An untruth spoken as knowledge is ignorance and is not as sin.

How will they know unless someone is sent.
Sent to tell them the truth the good news. 

[ded2daworld]

Daj said, "no lie comes from the truth. No truth hides a lie"

I guess the example wasn't good enough
"E.G. My wife says, "Do you love me?"
I shrug my shoulders, look away from her and sneeringly say, "Yeah, sure."

I have told the truth and a hidden lie simultaneously.

Just like, "Oh yeah, I agree with you completely" said sarcastically as I roll my eyes upward.
It sure seems to me a lie came from the truth and the truth I spoke hid a lie. :Peace2: