Will

[eaglesway]

Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what HE makes of us.

What He is making of us is sons, walking in the glorious liberty of the children of God, conformed to His image, in communion with His Spirit and within His love, SO AT ONE WITH HIM that there is no division, rule power or authority anymore, For the FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.

The one whom Christ shall set free shall be FREE INDEED. That means FREE FOR REAL.

We are held under tutors(Galatians 4) until our sonship is established. Then we are given the keys to the kingdom because we have passed through the garden into the cross.

"Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done"

Our stewardship grows from almost no freedom(law), into TOTAL FREEDOM, because God is ALL IN ALL- there is no more need for subjection because God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER.

Just another point of view brothers and sisters.

We do have room for more than one point of view here at Tentmaker, don't we? :o)   Peace.

[eaglesway]

Among the primary reasons for Creating all of us in the first place?

Fellowship. Communion. Harmony. Friendship.

Who wants a Bride who loves because she is made to?

Ask Hosea :o)

[micah7:9]

Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what HE makes of us.

What He is making of us is sons, walking in the glorious liberty of the children of God, conformed to His image, in communion with His Spirit and within His love, SO AT ONE WITH HIM that there is no division, rule power or authority anymore, For the FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.

The one whom Christ shall set free shall be FREE INDEED. That means FREE FOR REAL.

We are held under tutors(Galatians 4) until our sonship is established. Then we are given the keys to the kingdom because we have passed through the garden into the cross.

"Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done"

Our stewardship grows from almost no freedom(law), into TOTAL FREEDOM, because God is ALL IN ALL- there is no more need for subjection because God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER.

Just another point of view brothers and sisters.

We do have room for more than one point of view here at Tentmaker, don't we? :o)   Peace.

"We do have room for more than one point of view here at Tentmaker, don't we? :o)   Peace."

What other point of view do you speak of? If Iam allowed to ask?

[eaglesway]

No, since your point of view differs from mine, you are not allowed to ask  :LH:

[VineBranch]

:iagree: the DIVINE NATURE ACTIVATED :banana: :banana:

At last, a real definition!! (I can also spell this one.)

[VineBranch]

Our stewardship grows from almost no freedom(law), into TOTAL FREEDOM, because God is ALL IN ALL- there is no more need for subjection because God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER.

Does that mean we together comprise God?  Sort of a Pan Theism?

I think I disagree Eagle.  I don't mean to start anything but scripture and the experiences of my own life have shown me that God is totally and wholly The Other.

[eaglesway]

I don't get how you get pan theism there VB. We are members of the Body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. We are stones in the living tabernacle of which Jesus is Chief Cornerstone- being built into a habitation of God in the Spirit.

In Johns revelation it is written of the wings of the seraphim that they made a sound like the rushing of many waters, like the Voice of the Almighty, like 10,000s of 10,000s(10,000 to the 10,000th power)praising God.

Jesus said that evryone who is born of the spirit is like the wind (John3:8)- you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes or where it goes.

God is spirit. He is the wind. We are breaths. We are carried along with Him as we divest ourselves of the heaviness of flesh and the pleasures of the mind and the pride of life.

No where does it say God is WHOLLY OTHER than us. Jesus prayed.... That you may be one EVEN AS I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE, I am in the Father, the Father is in me, and I am in you.

We are being created in the image of Christ, the image of God. We are who we are, but we are coming into PERFECT UNION with God in the Spirit- and so PERFECT UNION with one another.

That's freedom.

[micah7:9]

Youse guys :HeartThrob:

[VineBranch]

I don't get how you get pan theism there VB.

Fair enough.

You said "God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER".
All the droplets of a river make up that river.  If what you said is true then all of us combined make up God (our coming together create God).  I suspect that is not what you meant, but it is the logical conclusion of what you said.  If God is the river, then all the droplets must be a part of the river, and share in the oneness of the river.  I just think that because God existed before I did, and because I was then created by God, I am not part of what makes up God.

I accept that I am part of the church; I cannot accept that I am part of God.  Perhaps we could say The Church is the river and we are the droplet:  that makes a whole lot of sense to me.

[eaglesway]

I never said we are coming together to create God? :dontknow:

I said He is the river, we are droplets of water in the river. The river was mighty before we got in it ;o)

[ded2daworld]

How about God is like the ocean and we(all humans) when reconciled will be like a bucket of water thrown in all our droplets now being a part of the vastness.?

[micah7:9]

How about God is like the ocean and we(all humans) when reconciled will be like a bucket of water thrown in all our droplets now being a part of the vastness.?

Works for me :dsunny:

[CHB]

I would like to share where this discussion has lead me so far.

I started this thread thinking I was a devote of Free Will.  Now, I'm not sure.

A long time ago, while I was involved in the intelligent Design argument, I came to understand that not only is the universe designed, so am I.  I told some of the folks with whom I fellowshiped that I thought of it this way.  Say I borrowed your car.  The next day I return with my arm in a cast and say this to you, "...you know as a car your vehicle works great, but as an airplane however, it leaves a lot to be desired."  You might answer by telling me that it was never designed to be an airplane.

My desire to believe in Free Will was based on the notion that somehow we are actively involved in the conclusion of, if not the universe, at least our own lives.  I see now that there is an oxymoron at work here.  I cannot ultimately be designed, and at the same time be free (in the sense of being able to transcend my design).  The only way I could transcend is if I was designed to to so, but that would be a part of my design, and therefore would say nothing of freedom.  I told a friend at work the other day that I didn't think I believed in Free Will.  He looked at me, didn't say a word, just looked.  I saw his lips twitch, his mouth trying to bring forth words, but they weren't coming.  Finely he simply turned away.  Apparently we are changed from glory to glory. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Free Will has been my obsession for decades, and now, I can simply let it go.  It really isn't important.  I was designed to be in a loving relationship with my father;  it is literally who I was created to be, and who I am!!  Free Will is one of those pieces of dross which fell away, and I'm fine with that.

To me, free will is the worst belief one can have. It takes away from God. If I am going to decrease I must give up my self which is thinking I can act on my own. Jesus said to DENY ONES SELF and to follow him.
(Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM.

How does one deny Christ through works? If we feel like we must work or do something on our own isn't that like denying that Christ did it ALL? Does Christ need our help?

[micah7:9]

Amen CHB...free will doctrine is of the devil.

[eaglesway]

In order to deny yourself, you must have the option to choose yourself.That requires that you have a will of your own. Denying yourself is about indulgence and sacrifice-"Nevertheless not my will but yours be done". This "choice" to sacrifice ones own benefit for the benifit of others and the service of God, requires a measure of freedom. I guess I should be upset that I hold, "the worst belief possible" but in my opinion, that is only your opinion, so it doesnt upset me at all for my own sake.

I would hope however that other folks who hold the promise of the "salvation of all" would not be offended by your opinion, if they happen to see the relationship between God's will and our will as I do. :o)

I guess that makes me a teacher of the devils doctrine eh?

[CHB]

Sorry eaglesway,

I wouldn't purposely offend you at all, I was thinking about myself when I use to believe we had free will. Please don't take anything I say as offensive.  :HeartThrob: :girlheart: I just felt like that was the worse thing I had believed. There are things I believe that you probably think is the worst thing? You may even read one of them today. I am truly sorry if I offended you. I have learned a lot from your many posts.

CHB

[ded2daworld]

What a great idea for a post CHB! I'll start it now :Peace2:

[Molly]

In order to deny yourself, you must have the option to choose yourself.That requires that you have a will of your own. Denying yourself is about indulgence and sacrifice-"Nevertheless not my will but yours be done".

Yes, and in order to choose yourself, you must first know who you are.

Christ is the author and perfector of our faith.

We may not start out as much but as he brings us to our highest expression of ourself [which faith tells us he will] we will only seek more and more to serve him in partnership.   It is our partnership with him which makes us perfect.

The word for 'God' is plural.  We are [being made into] the Y'shuah elohiym, the gods of Christ, the anointed ones.

Anything less than that misses the mark.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

--1 Cor 15



You are right about drops of water into the river.  But our oneness will not detract from our individuality.  We are each unique as we share one body and one Spirit.  Everything that he has created is an individual in its own right, the DNA different one from another even though they may look like the same thing.  He will preserve the richness of that individuality which he himself has created.

1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.


You are to love, honor, and respect the person he has created you to be.


Now We are Free

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2o7vflIG58

[redhotmagma]

In order to deny yourself, you must have the option to choose yourself.That requires that you have a will of your own. Denying yourself is about indulgence and sacrifice-"Nevertheless not my will but yours be done".

Yes, and in order to choose yourself, you must first know who you are.

Christ is the author and perfector of our faith.

We may not start out as much but as he brings us to our highest expression of ourself [which faith tells us he will] we will only seek more and more to serve him in partnership.   It is our partnership with him which makes us perfect.

The word for 'God' is plural.  We are [being made into] the Y'shuah elohiym, the gods of Christ, the anointed ones.

Anything less than that misses the mark.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

--1 Cor 15



You are right about drops of water into the river.  But our oneness will not detract from our individuality.  We are each unique as we share one body and one Spirit.  Everything that he has created is an individual in its own right, the DNA different one from another even though they may look like the same thing.  He will preserve the richness of that individuality which he himself has created.

1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.


You are to love, honor, and respect the person he has created you to be.


Now We are Free

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2o7vflIG58

:thumbsup:

[VineBranch]

I never said we are coming together to create God?

It's the logical end to the first statement.  If I take away all the droplets for a river, there remains nothing but a river bed.  Therefore if we all disappear, so does God.  I was merely saying that because He was here before I was, I cannot possible be a part of Him, but remain a creation of Him.

How about God is like the ocean and we(all humans) when reconciled will be like a bucket of water thrown in all our droplets now being a part of the vastness.?

Ded, that still makes us the same material as God.  Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?

[Molly]

Ded, that still makes us the same material as God.  Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?

I see a few differences.

1)Nirvana does not include Jesus Christ

2)Nirvana does not include us

I tried following this teaching for a while in my youth.  I can understand your objection to it.  Everything gets washed out in the great beyond.   Might as well take drugs.   :icon_jokercolor:

[ded2daworld]

I know nothing about nirvana. I was trying to explain what I thought EW was saying to Micah. I'm not offended
God in us and us in God, both in spirit so of course not same material since it's immaterial :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

Brother(CHB), I am not offended. It is just that we need to realize people are coming into UR from all over the theological spectrum, and these secondary issues will continue to bring us into discussions where our understandings of certain concepts will differ due to our backgrounds.

I know there is a version of "free will" that leaves it all up to us and ignores calling and election, even denying God's ultimate sovereignty. Not everyone who use that term believes it in that extreme, even as not everyone who views the gospel from the "fulfilled view", does so in the same measures and degrees.

I try to be careful not to pigeon hole and categorize anyone, at least until I understand the "measures and degrees" of their perspective :o)

[VineBranch]

Ded, that still makes us the same material as God.  Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?

I see a few differences.

1)Nirvana does not include Jesus Christ

2)Nirvana does not include us

I tried following this teaching for a while in my youth.  I can understand your objection to it.  Everything gets washed out in the great beyond.   Might as well take drugs.   :icon_jokercolor:

Thanks Molly:

By definition Christ would be God.  There are many schools of thought that see Nirvana as the great all (or the great nothing, depending on how you look at it), in which case it would definitely include us.

[VineBranch]

I know nothing about nirvana. I was trying to explain what I thought EW was saying to Micah. I'm not offended
God in us and us in God, both in spirit so of course not same material since it's immaterial :laughing7:

OHHH tres drole. :laughing7: