Rich man and Lazarus (again)

[marie glen]

I have something to talk about regarding the scriptures dealing with the parable or story.  I was just reading that in Jewish theology, just prior to and during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry,  they believed and taught that the place of the dead was divided into two sections.  One for the righteous and referred to as Abraham's bosom. And the other for the unrighteous.  This is what they thought Sheol was.   And not unlike what many religious folks think today regarding the Greek equivalent of  Hades, which many think is a place of punishment.  Its interesting how that Sheol was divided into two sections as opposed to the way Hades is now understood as only one place.   An inconsistency I think.  Anyway,  my point itction. Not to mention if you don't believe in a place of torment.   But why would Jesus refer to a false doctrine is what I'm wondering?   Any thoughts?

Thank you for sharing that! I have long wondered exactly how it fit.. i.e. I knew it was a "parable" or illustration and not a nonfictional account. And have always thought it was based on the thought and theories of the day.. Or actually almost any day, since the idea of death being another state of life is so deeply ingrained upon the human psyche. Mirroring that so long ago claim made by the opposer, "surely.. you won't.. die?!" Even sheol in Strong's Hebrew Concordance has become, the place (or realm) of the dead. [According to Isaiah 14, surely, the "place" and 'realm' of the dead is the grave - "worms as a bed, and maggots as a covering".]
:thumbsup:

[sheila]

  haveing trouble equating naked flesh with evil nature.  Seems Jesus Christ was born naked like us..and no sin in Him.

[marie glen]

Jesus plainly says that the devil was "a murderer from the beginning":

• John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"

And John plainly says that the devil "sinneth from the beginning":

• 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."

Orthodoxy says: "the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning', and "the devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning'", but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning. Do I believe Jesus & John, or do I believe the doctrines of Mystery Babylon?

Be very careful out there. Many false doctrines abound  :mshock:

greetings! :)
..."beginning" used is #746 of the Strong's Greek Concordance, meaning "commencement" and is the same word used by Jesus when He told His disciples they had been with Him from the beginning, and "I said not to you at the beginning" and such like. So here, I'm thinking, taking into consideration other verses, "was a murderer from the beginning.. ..of the world"
- Luke 10:18, Jesus said He saw Satan as lightening fall from heaven..
In Revelation chapter 12, the dragon was cast out of heaven, follows, there was war in heaven..
- "The angels which left their first estate" more commonly "place" (Jude 6) they left their place, showing will..
- - God did however, create evil, albeit indirectly when He endowed thinking ability, for an offshoot (surely?) of thinking ability, is the ability to choose and make choices. A real Pandora's box that was! But what was His other option? No rational creatures? ever? Life as we presently know it is an unavoidable journey (and lesson). Unavoidable if there is to be thinking ability, that is. As we know, God is 100% good, and, He is, of course, perfect. This includes all powerful. Anything less would be imperfect. This unavoidable lesson, as we know, is the learning and full comprehension of what is good from what is evil, which is also life from death/nonlife. In the 'end' after the 2nd resurrection will be full review of human history, a reinforcement if you will of all that is good from what is evil, and life from death.
- Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? and, Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? - I wasn't happy with my answer to him so I prayed and the answer(s) I got knocked my socks off, to the point they are still knocked off. - That's just it. We are not an ant farm. Another thing I learned was that God is life itself. Therefor to choose anything other than what or how God chooses, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence the need to be rescued, not only from death/nonlife, but its cause, imperfection.
- Because God endowed thinking ability, all suffer, some even horribly.. but, God being life, experiences, suffers and lives through all suffering which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating robots or an ant farm, but a family and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable, because aLL will fully understand good from evil, life from death, true from untrue, and will know to walk away from God, simply cannot be done!
- at the 'end' of the answers which came to me in prayer, 17 years ago, was a question: "why, did God wait such a veRy long time, before creating the universe and man and woman? Not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred but after it had fully matured into outright revolt and sedition.. didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did.. and i say "long" because when there was 'only' the Father and the Son and the angels, surely, there wasn't all that much to go astray about... (The answer, so all would take this unavoidable journey, and lesson, now, once and for all, instead of one going astray now, another later, another still later, and so on and so forth, taking virtually 'forever'.
~ A postscript, Of all the things I learned at this period of my life (I call my happy hermit years of much quality time alone with God) was that since God can only be perfect (or He too would fade) the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it) can only be the best-one-possible.

[misszoolander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_Ia4BlmYjbQ

Above is the first explanation I came across,

very interesting


explains the symbolic references to "The gulf" - meaning the Jordan river etc

[Illuin]

Hi Sheila,

Man was MADE (created) with a natural inclination to sin – an innate natural propensity to sin. He could NEVER have sinned if he did not already have this natural propensity to sin. It would be impossible. And the Word of God plainly tells us that Man was created imperfect. This is plainly stated in Jeremiah:

• Jeremiah 18:4  "And the vessel that he made of clay [the FIRST MAN Adam] WAS MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel [the LAST MAN Adam = Christ], as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

Notice what John says here:

• 1 John 2:16  "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

How could Eve (and Adam) possibly have done all of this if she were perfected? And yet she was guilty of "all that is in the world" BEFORE she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins before she ever touched the tree.

Once she ate of the fruit of that tree she was simply given the knowledge that she was indeed sinful [naked]. But she did not become sinful after eating, she simply became aware of the fact that she was made of dust and was naked. That is how we know that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a shadow and a type of THE LAW:

• Romans 7:7 "........I would not have come to know sin [realize I was naked] except through the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Paul says: "I would not have come to KNOW sin......... EXCEPT through the Law" In other words, I would not have come to "the knowledge of good and evil [sin]", except through the Law.

'Know' is the same as the word 'knowledge.'  So the law is also "good" because it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree is not solely evil. It is not merely the tree of the knowledge of evil.



Orthodoxy has this completely backwards. Adam and Eve disobeyed God BECAUSE "the creature [Adam - and you and I] was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY - NOT WILLINGLY - BUT BY REASON OF HIM":

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by his own free-will, and not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God], who hath subjected the same in hope."

[dajomaco]

Sheila reading your post inspired me to Pen the following

Who am I?

The word has been given to me.
I am by definition; the one who has been given the word.
I am not the word.
I remember the word was already there.
I can remember when I received the word.
When I received the word I knew already, what the word was and was not.
I knew what the word was and was not.
I knew that I was not the word.
I am an image of the word.
The word knows I am its image.
I know that I am the image of the word
The word can see their image.
The word creates all things.
Their image is creative.
Can the image of the word I am, create?  NO
I am only seen, as creating all.
When the word let me see the image I was.
So I could see; what they saw.
I saw the word naked.
I was ashamed of the word, naked.
The word comforted me by clothing me.
I knew then that I was no longer the true image of the word.
Would the word have any use for an image
an image that had to be hidden?
Was the word hiding parts of itself for the sake of the image?
I am the image of the word.
The word then showed me an image of itself.
That was not me.
I saw nakedness but no shame.
I saw all the images of the Word.
I saw the word.
When I looked at the word it had become flesh like me.
The word had shown it's self to me again.
I was a true image now.
The veil covering my nakedness was gone.
I was deceived.
The word felt no shame when looking at me, its image.
Who am I?
I am the image of the word.
Who is the word?

[Illuin]

Jesus plainly says that the devil was "a murderer from the beginning":

• John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"

And John plainly says that the devil "sinneth from the beginning":

• 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."

Orthodoxy says: "the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning', and "the devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning'", but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning. Do I believe Jesus & John, or do I believe the doctrines of Mystery Babylon?

Be very careful out there. Many false doctrines abound  :mshock:

greetings! :)
..."beginning" used is #746 of the Strong's Greek Concordance, meaning "commencement" and is the same word used by Jesus when He told His disciples they had been with Him from the beginning, and "I said not to you at the beginning" and such like. So here, I'm thinking, taking into consideration other verses, "was a murderer from the beginning.. ..of the world"
- Luke 10:18, Jesus said He saw Satan as lightening fall from heaven..
In Revelation chapter 12, the dragon was cast out of heaven, follows, there was war in heaven..
- "The angels which left their first estate" more commonly "place" (Jude 6) they left their place, showing will..
- - God did however, create evil, albeit indirectly when He endowed thinking ability, for an offshoot (surely?) of thinking ability, is the ability to choose and make choices. A real Pandora's box that was! But what was His other option? No rational creatures? ever? Life as we presently know it is an unavoidable journey (and lesson). Unavoidable if there is to be thinking ability, that is. As we know, God is 100% good, and, He is, of course, perfect. This includes all powerful. Anything less would be imperfect. This unavoidable lesson, as we know, is the learning and full comprehension of what is good from what is evil, which is also life from death/nonlife. In the 'end' after the 2nd resurrection will be full review of human history, a reinforcement if you will of all that is good from what is evil, and life from death.
- Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? and, Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? - I wasn't happy with my answer to him so I prayed and the answer(s) I got knocked my socks off, to the point they are still knocked off. - That's just it. We are not an ant farm. Another thing I learned was that God is life itself. Therefor to choose anything other than what or how God chooses, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence the need to be rescued, not only from death/nonlife, but its cause, imperfection.
- Because God endowed thinking ability, all suffer, some even horribly.. but, God being life, experiences, suffers and lives through all suffering which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating robots or an ant farm, but a family and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable, because aLL will fully understand good from evil, life from death, true from untrue, and will know to walk away from God, simply cannot be done!
- at the 'end' of the answers which came to me in prayer, 17 years ago, was a question: "why, did God wait such a veRy long time, before creating the universe and man and woman? Not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred but after it had fully matured into outright revolt and sedition.. didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did.. and i say "long" because when there was 'only' the Father and the Son and the angels, surely, there wasn't all that much to go astray about... (The answer, so all would take this unavoidable journey, and lesson, now, once and for all, instead of one going astray now, another later, another still later, and so on and so forth, taking virtually 'forever'.
~ A postscript, Of all the things I learned at this period of my life (I call my happy hermit years of much quality time alone with God) was that since God can only be perfect (or He too would fade) the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it) can only be the best-one-possible.

When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the originating point of the subject in question. In this case the subject in question is "the devil." This is referring to "the devil's beginning."


JESUS said of Satan,

• John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it."
  

Jesus reveals that in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!

John 8:44 above states that Satan "Adobe not in the truth." In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (Greek form of steko), "I keep my standing", or simply, "I stand", and the form is (esteken) meaning that as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE.

• Revelation 12:9 "And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."

Satan is called "that old serpent." The word "old" is from the Greek word "archaios" which means ORIGINAL or PRIMEVAL. "Primeval" means FROM THE FIRST AGE OR AGES: PRIMITIVE. "Archaios" is from the Greek word "arche" which means A COMMENCEMENT OR BEGINNING. Furthermore, "arche" is an abstraction of the Greek word "archomai" which means TO COMMENCE IN ORDER OF TIME.

Satan is that OLD serpent, that ANCIENT serpent, that ORIGINAL serpent, that PRIMEVAL serpent, the serpent of THE FIRST AGE, from the BEGINNING, who existed as a serpent from HIS COMMENCEMENT.


The scripture in Luke 10 you mention must be considered in context of what is being discussed:

• Luke 10:16 "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
  Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
  Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
  Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
  Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
  Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

You do understand what or where Heaven is Marie Glen, correct?  I'm sure you know it is decidedly NOT some geographical location somewhere "out there" in space somewhere, but is within the hearts and minds of God's saints (i.e. - WE ARE THE TEMPLE of the Living God; & the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU, etc.).

Anyway, notice above in Luke that Christ had just sent his disciples out to cast out demons, among other assignments. The fact that the demons were being cast out is Christ's reference when He made the statement 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven'. In that very context He goes on to say:

• Luke 10:20 "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

The subjection of the spirits to these seventy disciples of Christ is the subject, and heaven is located within the hearts and minds of the people of God.

Just as we read in Revelation:, 

• Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless [Greek, abussos] pit [Greek, phrear]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit [phrear], as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit [phrear].

This star that falls from heaven to the earth and is given the key to the bottomless pit is simply a spirit from heaven which darkens OUR understanding of spiritual matters and darkens OUR sun [light] and air [spirit].  :dsunny:


Paul also refers to this:

• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

So we have to remember that Satan as lightning falling from Heaven in Luke chapter 10 is 'in relation' to God's Apostles (saints = you and I) given the ability to cast Satan out of 'OUR' Heaven within, and has nothing to do with Satan once being a perfect sinless being who "fell" from a geographical "heaven" because he went bad. The context of Satan falling as lightning from Heaven is in relation to the subjection of the spirits to these seventy disciples of Christ [as well as us today].

[redhotmagma]

Illuin, I agree with much of what you are saying, but your statement "Re-read my previous post SLOWLY Sheila" is coming off combative (for no reason that I can see).  Very often tone and other types of communication are lost in written form, and what we are left with is something that seems harsher than it is.  I know I am guilty of this often. 

Also if you could introduce yourself that would be great.

[Illuin]

Illuin, I agree with much of what you are saying, but your statement "Re-read my previous post SLOWLY Sheila" is coming off combative (for no reason that I can see).  Very often tone and other types of communication are lost in written form, and what we are left with is something that seems harsher than it is.  I know I am guilty of this often. 

Also if you could introduce yourself that would be great.

I apologize. I certainly didn't mean it that way  :dunno2:.  My thinking was that if Sheila re-read the post it would come into focus - because Sheila basically understood everything "in spirit" already, and a few extra passages from Scripture usually will tie everything together.

My style of writing is very "systematic" and mechanical, kind of like Spock - but combative I am not, I can assure you (as I sit here getting teary-eyed watching 'The Karate Kid'  :laughing7:)

My name is Pete, and I am a semi-retired astrophysicist - which explains my formulaic writing style  :teaching:  I have been studying Scripture for many decades, but only recently (will be 6 years in August) has God opened my eyes to the magnitude of His love and mercy for ALL mankind. I now realize first hand that no amount of studying is relevant UNTIL God, in His time, decides to explain what the "letter of the Word" means to the spiritual eyes and ears :Chinscratch:. I know a few members in this venue from other forums, and it will be nice to talk with them again.  I really hope we get a little more action in here. I joined quite a while ago, but it seemed like everyone was on vacation :laughing7:.  Peace and God bless.

[eaglesway]

Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel.   the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did

  'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?

   and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him

IMO, The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world in the mind of God. The whole cosmos was created for this revelation of sacrificial love. But the Lamb was not actually slain until He died on the cross.


For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:20)

[Illuin]

Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel.   the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did

  'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?

   and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him

IMO, The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world in the mind of God. The whole cosmos was created for this revelation of sacrificial love. But the Lamb was not actually slain until He died on the cross.


For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:20)

Right, I agree (even though we have to keep in mind that the "physical" property of "time" is non-existent in the spiritual realm, which transcends the linear aions created with the physical universe [Greek: kosmos = world])

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world -- but also Christ's "Christ" - whom Christ has sent just as His Father sent Him - were also slain from the foundation of the world:

• Matthew 10:39 "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."
  
  John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
  
  1 Corinthians 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."
  
  Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
  
  Romans 6:3-4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
  
  John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even SO send I you."

We were also "slain with (in) Christ" as far as God is concerned (i.e. - as you have said, "in the mind of God")

• 1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."
  
  2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
  
  Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

We were "in Christ Jesus before the world began", and therefore we were, since we were IN CHRIST, "slain before the foundation of the world... IN Christ Jesus"

[sheila]

well,not to be making excuses..lol..but did you ever have an 'off' day..when your'e head hurt..and light reading was about

all you could manage? :sigh: that's were I've been for a couple days..My grand-daughters last jr high ballgame last night..

so...I  got off the board to get ready! LOL!!!

   ps..astrophysicst huh?  I have the hardest time mentally wrapping my head around all that stuff.  I should have persisted

with my subscription to Omni  yrs ago..and my understanding may have been better.  Nice to meet you!, Pete!

[marie glen]

I can see,   Illuin, that we are worlds apart. :smile: I believe there will be a second advent of Jesus and the kingdom will then be not only within all people, but also will be upon earth and throughout the created universe.. Once again God will say "Behold it is all good".
- It's not hard for me to believe God designed satan&co to be his winnowing fork, but, at the creation, God said each day "behold all is GOOD". If all was good, why the need for a force of evildoing to winnow/improve his human creatures? If God created man and woman without flaw, at the beginning, why is it unreasonable the same can be said for the angels. God did endow thinking ability which logic leads to the thought that an offshoot of thinking ability is the ability to make choices. That said, surely it was bound to occur, a first thought somewhere, not fully aligned with God. (But what is/was God's other choice? No rational, thinking creatures ever?)

When prayerfully seeking to understand prophesy, the question came to my mind "why did God wait so very long and only create man and woman and the universe not only after, the 1st bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but had fully ripened into outright (potential/probable) sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did, :smile: "waited a very long time because when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to go astray about. The answer of course was, so all (man and angel kinds) would take this unavoidable journey(and lesson) once for all 'time' otherwise one would stray now, another later, and so on taking virtually 'forever'.. [Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be thinking ability.] You see, I am thoroughly convinced we are still a-chewing upon that fruit of knowing/fully understanding all good from all evil.. which is also life from death/nonlife. We are learning to wander from God or to disagree with God is actually not possible! Else one becomes nonlife/fades.. even as we see this "law of corruption" a natural physical law we are living in now in this, life as we know it.

The bottomless pit! Now, there's where I agree with you that something is within the heart and mind of man! The abyss of Rev 9:2 is man, and angel, endowed with thinking ability, thus choice. It's endless the depths one can fall to.. In this instance, Rev 9:2, what is prophesied as coming out of the pit (and the "smoke", of Joel's very dry day) will be marshall law enforced by 'whirring locusts' which swarm and hover (description of a locust which is what John called these).

So you see, even Bible prophecy and the Book of Revelation, to me, is quite literal in its meaning(s). :smile:

Concerning the "strong delusion" Peter wrote of, when I prayed earnestly to understand Bible prophecy, the question came immediately to my mind, "what are the strongest influences upon mankind today- today, not yesteryear" - was how it was phrased. The first thing I realized is that the "strong delusion" came from the "false prophet"/teaching/teacher of the Book of Revelation, and this began as a man and turned the world upside down, i.e., changed western civilization, or what was once called Christendom. A huGe influence upon our world which became a white frocked magician (plural) which gave a certain office (the 'little' beast, not yesteryear's) the capability to bring fire 'down' to earth in the sight of man(in 1945) convincing them to rebuild the world beast/body which had expired because its head did not, afterall, sign on (Rev 13). This same white frocked magician will, or has, also developed the (tracking, mind control?) apparatus which will be the abomination of desolation, Jesus said would be "seen" (in the world, the modern version being the 66 and 6).
- So you see, I take a very literal stance on God's Word, our Bible. Some interpretations, to me, seem to require a good degree of mental acrobatics and loop de loops, so defy logic.

I agree with the spirits were subject to the disciples and this is an important aspect.. But I see them not only as oppressions within the people, but as forces for evil in the world (often working two sides of things til there is war, large or small). And that this aligns with the phrase "the god of this world" ("has blinded the minds..")

..thanks for interesting discussion..

[Illuin]

well,not to be making excuses..lol..but did you ever have an 'off' day..when your'e head hurt..and light reading was about

all you could manage? :sigh: that's were I've been for a couple days..My grand-daughters last jr high ballgame last night..

so...I  got off the board to get ready! LOL!!!

   ps..astrophysicst huh?  I have the hardest time mentally wrapping my head around all that stuff.  I should have persisted

with my subscription to Omni  yrs ago..and my understanding may have been better.  Nice to meet you!, Pete!

It happens to me all the time. Many times I believe it is God shutting us down because He wants us to chew on only so much at one time, but not too much.  :flamebreath:

No, astrophysics isn't difficult, nowhere near as intricate as Scripture. Just like understanding agriculture, understanding astrophysics is a great aid when dealing with complex issues in Scripture, such as "time" and "eternity." It has helped me to understand more thoroughly how the successive ages (chronois aioniois) God has created solely for the "physical" universe --- which, if continued forever, would simply be an endless "duration" of chronological time and life (life aionios) --- have nothing to do with the "true" meaning of "eternity" or "without end" (Gr: aphthartos = imperishable = incorruptible = immortal). The true meaning is the unchangeable quality of divine existence, which transcends the physical universe, including the property of time itself.

These are subjects that come up frequently when discussing the questionable translations of the word 'aion' with those who subscribe to eternal torment or annihilationism.

[ded2daworld]

Logic - gotta love it.

"Come, let us reason together" says the Lord God. :Peace2:

[sheila]

 well..it is that very issue that coz's me to 'butt' heads with some of my brother's on the forum :sigh:..

when the spirit of Christ is in you...the Kingdom of heaven is in your midst..this I know..for tabernacling with Him

is just that. I know that I have come down[been subjected] to the vanity per His will. Holy spirit showed this there

to Peter 3 times in the vision..that we come down with little or no understanding[animals on sheet] to return.

  no-one has ascended except for him who descended.  son of man..is all of us.

[ded2daworld]

We sometimes cannot understand the reasoning of God, but just as "it is impossible for God to lie"
I also believe it is impossible for God to be illogical in any way. :Peace2:

[sheila]

hey ded2 what you call 'illogical' I call man not understanding His logic...say the 'foolishness' of the cross..it is

foolishness to the natural man..or illogical to his mind... God's 'foolishness' being wiser than the wisdom of man :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

 marie glen
Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #37 on: Today at 09:50:46 PM »
".....God said each day "behold all is GOOD". If all was good, why the need for a force of evildoing to winnow/improve his human creatures? If God created man and woman without flaw, at the beginning, ...."
I God did NOT say after Gen. 1:26,27,28 that It was Good. He did say at Gen 1:31  "And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good;.."
So however man was made, it was just how God desired him to be.
And if by meaning "God created man and woman without flaw...." that there actions in Gen. 3 were calculated, I can agree, but if you mean that God made them without "flaw" or perfect in His likeness and image, then I cannot agree.
Had man been made without "flaw" perfect in His likeness and image, I cannot except that man would have been deceived by the adversary.
That would mean imo, that God could be deceived.
IMO, man had knowledge in Gen. 2 [knowledge: - cunning, [ig-] norantly, know(-ledge), [un-] awares (wittingly).] but that knowledge had no adversity to be compared with.
Again, going with the thought that man was created in God's image and likeness, it was not until Gen. 3:22 that God's work of creating man continues and began learning. Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

[sheila]

 Hey Micah....imo there is 'good' better...and 'perfect :declare:"

[Illuin]

when the spirit of Christ is in you...the Kingdom of heaven is in your midst..this I know..for tabernacling with Him

I agree. You couldn't be more right. God is Spirit, spirit lies beyond matter, beyond time, beyond space.  The spirit exists before and above and beyond time.  "HE IS before all things."  So if one lives and walks "in the spirit" he is ALSO transcending time, space, and matter. Eternity is not somewhere out in the future where time continues linearly. Eternity, rather, is where time "ends" dimensionally; where the "physical" dies and the "spirit" lives. The spirit of Christ is unchangeable, therefore eternal, before time, after time, and in time; hence, the name "I AM."  And when the spirit of I AM lives in you, and you in Him, that is what is truly meant by "LIFE eternal."

• John 14:6 "....I AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE...."

[ded2daworld]

If perfect like god, that would mean omniscience. If omniscient, Adam/Eve wouldn't have had to think twice about "a knowledge of good and evil" or the consequences of sin.

[Illuin]

So you see, even Bible prophecy and the Book of Revelation, to me, is quite literal in its meaning(s). :smile:

Concerning the "strong delusion" Peter wrote of, when I prayed earnestly to understand Bible prophecy, the question came immediately to my mind, "what are the strongest influences upon mankind today- today, not yesteryear" - was how it was phrased. The first thing I realized is that the "strong delusion" came from the "false prophet"/teaching/teacher of the Book of Revelation, and this began as a man and turned the world upside down, i.e., changed western civilization, or what was once called Christendom. A huGe influence upon our world which became a white frocked magician (plural) which gave a certain office (the 'little' beast, not yesteryear's) the capability to bring fire 'down' to earth in the sight of man(in 1945) convincing them to rebuild the world beast/body which had expired because its head did not, afterall, sign on (Rev 13). This same white frocked magician will, or has, also developed the (tracking, mind control?) apparatus which will be the abomination of desolation, Jesus said would be "seen" (in the world, the modern version being the 66 and 6).
- So you see, I take a very literal stance on God's Word, our Bible. Some interpretations, to me, seem to require a good degree of mental acrobatics and loop de loops, so defy logic.



..thanks for interesting discussion..

I'm not really sure who you are referring to here Marie, so I do not want to reply without knowing for sure. Are you referring to a nation, such as the United States maybe?

[micah7:9]

Good H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good
Better H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good
Perfect H8549
תּמים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire From root "COMPLETE"
Better in the NT is "stronger or beautiful"

[sheila]

  I know this is true..  the cross is but that the temporal dissolves and the immortal/spiritual is firmly fixed.