http://askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm (UR site)
It's to big to quoute so 'll just post a few highlights.
The name "Lazarus" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Eleazar" (which means "God has helped"). The name was a common Hebrew word used for eleven different persons in the Old Testament
When one analyzes the parable, this Eleazar can be identified. He was one who must have had some kind of affinity with Abraham (or the Abrahamic covenant), for the parable places him in Abraham's bosom after death. But he was probably a Gentile. The phrase "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table" was typical of Gentile identification (see Matthew 15:22–28). Even the phrase "laid at his gate" is reminiscent of the normal one used by Jews to denote the Gentile proselyte "Proselyte of the Gate." This Eleazar must also have been associated with stewardship because Christ gave the parable precisely for the reason of explaining what represents the true steward.
There was only one Eleazar in the historical part of the Bible that fits the description. He was a person associated with Abraham, he was a Gentile (not an ethnic part of the Abrahamic family), and a steward. He was Eleazar of Damascus, the chief steward of Abraham.
"And Abram said, 'Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eleazar [Lazarus] of Damascus and lo, one born in my house is mine heir.'"
Genesis 15:2–3
The Rich Man was an actual son of Abraham. Christ had him calling Abraham his "father" (Luke 16:24)
Rich Man = Judah
The parable says that a "great gulf" [Greek: chasm] was fixed between the position of Abraham and Eleazar and that of the Rich Man [Judah]. What was this chasm? The Greek word means a deep ravine or valley — a great canyon with cliffs on each side. Its two sides were also "afar off"
Note the italicized word "pass." In all other occasions of its grammatical use in the New Testament, the word was used to denote a passage over water.
This would be the great rift valley between the highlands of Trans-Jordan and the hill country of Ephraim in which the River Jordan flows. This fault line is the greatest and longest visible chasm on earth. And what a spectacular sight it is! As one looks over the chasm he sees impressive cliffs on each side, a desert in its wastelands, and the River Jordan meandering in the center.
It divided the original land of promise given to Abraham from ordinary Gentile lands.
Recall also that the Rich Man was depicted as being in flames of judgment (verse 24). In this same rift valley were formerly located the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah which were "set forth for an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
The theme of Christ's narrative was true stewardship. Though Eleazar [Lazarus], Abraham's trusted steward, had disinherited himself from earthly rewards by his faithful obedience to Abraham's wishes, he was later to find himself (after death, when true inheritance comes) in Abraham's bosom. But the chief representative of Abraham's actual sons (Judah, the spiritual leader of all the Israelite tribes) remained East of Canaan as far as true inheritance was concerned. He had inherited all the physical blessings while in the flesh, but at death he was not allowed to pass the spiritual Jordan into the final Abrahamic inheritance.
The only Gospel to carry the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was Luke who was the companion of Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. It showed a specific message that Gentiles could now inherit the promises to Abraham provided they were faithful as Eleazar had been. Yet Paul did not want the Gentiles to be conceited in their new relationship with God.
I gave this post to another site and they said the man was crazy and nuts. There is a degree of ignorance out there. Bless the Lord.
Did they give an explanation? Or was it just that the rich man isn't burning?
The man had (died a few years ago) interesting views. For example he claims to have found the real location of the Temple.
No explanation. Just crazy, but the person believes the story is true and literal...because it reads a "certain man." Wont see it any other way. :sigh:
Just like a certain shepherd with 100 sheep.
A certain woman with a coin.
A certain father with a prodical son.
A certain ... etc
There are many simple proofs it can't be literal. But I'm sure you already have read about them.
I have something to talk about regarding the scriptures dealing with the parable or story. I was just reading that in Jewish theology, just prior to and during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, they believed and taught that the place of the dead was divided into two sections. One for the righteous and referred to as Abraham's bosom. And the other for the unrighteous. This is what they thought Sheol was. And not unlike what many religious folks think today regarding the Greek equivalent of Hades, which many think is a place of punishment. Its interesting how that Sheol was divided into two sections as opposed to the way Hades is now understood as only one place. An inconsistency I think. Anyway, my point is, I'm thinking about the possibility that Jesus when he mentioned the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that Jesus was simply referring to the Jew's theology regarding Sheol. It doesn't mean it was correct theology. Jesus may have simply referred to their false belief about Sheol for some reason. Because as we now know, Sheol and Hades mean the grave or unseen. So my point is that that story, or the theology behind the story didn't originate with Jesus. Jesus was simply referring to a belief that the Jews already had at the time, even if it was a false doctrine. Which it is, if you believe that people are in an unconscious state in the grave, awaiting resurrection. Not to mention if you don't believe in a place of torment. But why would Jesus refer to a false doctrine is what I'm wondering? Any thoughts?
I was just thinking that perhaps Jesus was using the Jewish false belief about Sheol to illustrate his own teaching and warnings regarding the coming judgment against Israel. A real possibility I think!
"....tormented in this flame...."
Flame ---> Fiery law ---> choked to death by 613 laws?
THE LAW WAS A TUTOR TO LEAD US TO CHRIST...OUR SAVIOUR.........
MY POV THE RICH MAN THAT LIVED IN SHAMELESS LUXURY WAS SATAN THAT TOOK OVER THE DOMINION
OF THE EARTH[ALL THESE KINGDOMS I WILL GIVE TO YOU FOR ONE ACT OF WORSHIP]
CHRIST THOUGH HE WAS RICH AS HEIR OF THE WHOLE CREATION..MADE HIMSELF POOR FOR OUR SAKES
THE POOR MAN SIGNIFIED THE SONS OF aDAM WHO HAD BEEN MADE POOR BY THE ROBBER,THEIF AND
KILLER SATAN...jESUS WAS SHOWING THAT WHEN MEN DIED THE WERE CARRIED TO THE BOSOM OF
FATHER.......SATAN AS THE RICH MAN..HAD FIVE BROTHERS=OFFSPRING OF VIPERS JESUS REPLY THAT
THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS
LET THEM LISTEN TO THEM= SATAN USING THE LAW AND WORD OF GOD/PROPHETS TO KILL /CONDEMN
MANKIND[SINS LAW] FOR JESUS SAID 'THE COMMANDMENT WAS UNTO LIFE" NOT DEATH AS
SATAN USED IT FOR....AND AS SUCH GRACE WOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO THEM...FOR AS THEY HAD
JUDGED MEN[AS UNWORTHY OF LIFE] SO TOO..THEY WOULD RECEIVE THAT JUDGEMENT...
YOU SEE..LET NO MAN EVER THINK THAT WHEN HE IS TEMPTED THAT HE IS TEMPTED OF GOD
jESUS TOLD THE RICH MAN..THAT IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO MOSES AND THE PROPHETS
[WHICH LEAD TO CHRIST] THEY WOULD NOT BE CONVINCED EVEN IF SOMEONE RAISES THE DEAD
WHICH IS CHRIST...THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD[I AM THE RESURRECTION]
Please. :sigh:
My understanding is that this parable predates Jesus. If this is the case, Jesus was using something that man created and in typical Jesus fashion turning it on it's head to address the hypocrisy of those who maintained that belief (Pharisees). This parable isn't about heaven and hell, it's about first is last....last is first. It's about religion vs spirituality. It's about those who believe they are in good standing with God...but don't love the least of these.
Quote from: shawn on October 04, 2012, 04:31:32 PM
My understanding is that this parable predates Jesus. If this is the case, Jesus was using something that man created and in typical Jesus fashion turning it on it's head to address the hypocrisy of those who maintained that belief (Pharisees). This parable isn't about heaven and hell, it's about first is last....last is first. It's about religion vs spirituality. It's about those who believe they are in good standing with God...but don't love the least of these.
:happyclap: :dsunny:
Proverbs 29;7 the righteous care about justice for the poor.....but the wicked have no such concern.....
this is truth and life in the parable.......
however there is also 'hidden manna' in it.....
.
woe to him who builds up his house by unjust means[satan wrested dominion of earth[all the glory]
from Adam and his offspring..in effect murdering him[may those who seek my life be put to shame
and confusion, may all who desire my ruin be turned back in disgrace]....
.
Adam was a son of God given dominion...the liar and murdere wrested it away from him.......just as
the wicked servants killed Jesus Christ the heir to keep the vineyard for themselves...[mICHAEL AND
HIS ANGELS FOUGHT]
[
Yet,, I AM POOR AND NEEDY COME QUICKLY TO ME,O"GOD.....[..
YOU ARE MY HELP AND DELIVERER,O"LORD DO NOT DELAY[HE WAS THROWN TO THE EARTH]
the poor will see and be glad-you who seek God may your hearts live!!
THE LORD HEARS THE NEEDY AND DOES NOT DESPIZE HIS CAPTIVE PEOPLE[SIN REIGNED]
THE PROPHESY OF THE PROMISED SEED[SEED OF THE WOMAN] IN THE GARDEN..WAS
GOD SHOWING THAT KINGSHIP AND DOMINION WOULD BE RESTORED/KINSMAN REDEEMER
TO aDAM'S 'POOR' RELATIVES TO THE BOSOM POSITION OF THE FATHER
WHEN FATHER PASSED JUDGEMENT ON THE SERPENT FOR DECEIVING...HIS JU7DGEMENT
WENT LIKE THIS.....CURSED ARE YOU ABOVE ALL THE LIVESTOCK AND ALL THE WILD ANIMALS
[BEASTS]..YOU WILL CRAWL ON YOUR BELLY[NOT STAND BEFORE ME] AND YOU WILL EAT DUST=
YOUR DOMINION IS LIMITED TO FLESH/DUST/ BODY OF MAN/BEAST........UNTIL PROMISED SEED CRUSHES
YOUR 'HEAD' OR DOMINION OVER FLESH DUST//BODY OF MAN...
THE BRUISING OF THE HEEL OF THE SEED SIGNIFY'S THE LIMIT OF SATANS POWER TO BRING DEATH
THROUGH HIS REIGN OVER FLESH/DUST/EARTH....AND RESULTS IN HIS DEATH.
.
THE NEW EARTH VOID OF DEATH/CURSE, UNDER NEW HEAVENS[HEAD] IS THE RESTORATION OF ALL
THINGS.. THAT.THE LIAR AND MURDERER/ORIGINAL SERPENT WRESTED FROM THE SONS OF GOD
CERTAIN EVIL SPIRITS ASKED JESUS IF HE HAD COME TO TORMENT THEM BEFORE THE APPOINTED
TIME[RICH MAN'S TORMENT] FOR THEY KNOW THE SENTENCE SPOKEN AGAINST THEM...THEY THIRST
FOR WATER OF LIFE/OR WORD FROM GOD THEY SHALL RISE. AND STAND BEFORE HIM
.BUT ARE GIVEN NONE...THE SIGN OF JONAH IS ALL THEY WILL RECEIVE...THAT THE VERY HEIR
OF THE KINGDOM THAT WAS PUT TO DEATH BY THEM SHALL RISE FROM DEATH TO THE BOSOM
POSITION OF GOD[even if someone should rise from the dead they shall not beleive]
OF WHAT BENEFIT IS IT UNTO A MAN TO GAIN THE WHOLE EARTH BUT LOSE HIS SOUL/LIFE=
ORIGINAL MAN OF SIN/LAWLESSNESS/ORIGINAL SERPENT/BEAST/SATAN/ADVERSARY/BABYLON/
FALSE PROPHET/UNCLEAN SPIRIT/EVIL SPIRIT/LIAR AND THEIF/
/USURPER OF THE THRONE AND DOMINION
YOU ARE JUST IN THESE JUDGEMENTS,YOU WHO ARE AND WHO WERE, THE HOLY ONE
BECAUSE YOU HAVE SO JUDGED, FOR THEY SHED THE BLOOD OF YOUR SAINTS AND PROPHTS,
AND YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM BLOOD TO DRINK AS THEY DESERVE
NOW THE DWELLING OF GOD IS WITH MEN AND HE WILL LIVE WITH THEM AND BE THEIR GOD
HE WILL WIPE EVERY TEAR FROM THEIR EYES. THERE WILL BE NO MORE DEATH OR
MOURNING OR CRYING OR PAIN,FOR THE OLD ORDER OF THINGS HAS PASSED AWAY
HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL INHERIT ALL THIS[HAVE NO FEAR LITLE FLOCK,I HAVE OVERCOME]
John 17;2 For you granted him authority over all people,that He might give eternal life
to all those you have given him
Luke 16:19-31
Standard knee jerk response: "This can't be a parable because Jesus used a proper name and Jesus never uses a proper name in other parables."
AHEM! There are two proper names used. Do the two people named have anything in common? Why yes, they do. Something HUGE.
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day (ISRAEL).
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Eliezer (of Damascus)*, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
*Lazarus = Eliezer = "But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer (of Damascus a GENTILE)?" - Genesis 15:2
Eliezer = GENTILES
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man (ISRAEL) also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abram far away, with Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abram replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' EXCEPT FOR THE CROSS OF JESUS WHICH BRIDGES THE GAP
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES to my family (ISRAEL), 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they (ISRAEL) will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abram replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 "'No, father Abram,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" THAT SOMEONE BEING JESUS CHRIST
Quote from: Brian on October 11, 2012, 05:11:26 PM
Luke 16:19-31
Standard knee jerk response: "This can't be a parable because Jesus used a proper name and Jesus never uses a proper name in other parables."
Except references to Himself. King, shepherd.
there is light in that post Brian.
Abraham=God...Father of a multitude[isreal/gentiles]...Lazarus= Jesus who suffered on earth.. firstborn of dead
resurrected to bosom position[and all mankind that suffered because of evil]
rich man satan[did you come to torment us before the time}
water for tongue=waters of eternal life
one more thing.......law= sin entered when we disobeyed[Moses and prophets]..offspring of vipers
judge law[sit in Moses seat/sins law] like to place heavy burdens on men impossible to bear..
and are not willing to lift their little finger
Quote from: sheila on September 28, 2012, 12:49:28 AM
THE LAW WAS A TUTOR TO LEAD US TO CHRIST...OUR SAVIOUR.........
MY POV THE RICH MAN THAT LIVED IN SHAMELESS LUXURY WAS SATAN THAT TOOK OVER THE DOMINION
OF THE EARTH[ALL THESE KINGDOMS I WILL GIVE TO YOU FOR ONE ACT OF WORSHIP]
CHRIST THOUGH HE WAS RICH AS HEIR OF THE WHOLE CREATION..MADE HIMSELF POOR FOR OUR SAKES
THE POOR MAN SIGNIFIED THE SONS OF aDAM WHO HAD BEEN MADE POOR BY THE ROBBER,THEIF AND
KILLER SATAN...jESUS WAS SHOWING THAT WHEN MEN DIED THE WERE CARRIED TO THE BOSOM OF
FATHER.......SATAN AS THE RICH MAN..HAD FIVE BROTHERS=OFFSPRING OF VIPERS JESUS REPLY THAT
THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS
LET THEM LISTEN TO THEM= SATAN USING THE LAW AND WORD OF GOD/PROPHETS TO KILL /CONDEMN
MANKIND[SINS LAW] FOR JESUS SAID 'THE COMMANDMENT WAS UNTO LIFE" NOT DEATH AS
SATAN USED IT FOR....AND AS SUCH GRACE WOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO THEM...FOR AS THEY HAD
JUDGED MEN[AS UNWORTHY OF LIFE] SO TOO..THEY WOULD RECEIVE THAT JUDGEMENT...
YOU SEE..LET NO MAN EVER THINK THAT WHEN HE IS TEMPTED THAT HE IS TEMPTED OF GOD
jESUS TOLD THE RICH MAN..THAT IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO MOSES AND THE PROPHETS
[WHICH LEAD TO CHRIST] THEY WOULD NOT BE CONVINCED EVEN IF SOMEONE RAISES THE DEAD
WHICH IS CHRIST...THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD[I AM THE RESURRECTION]
Sheila, I think you are a bit confused with regard to what Satan's
"role" is. The idea that Satan was once a
"holy angel" who fell is yet another of the many, many false doctrines of Babylon.
Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own [nature]: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
How long has Satan been a murderer? Did he start out as a
good angel who went bad? "
He [the devil] was a murderer
FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him."
According to Genesis, the serpent was the most subtle of all of the
'beasts of the field', which the Lord God
HAD MADE:
- Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE."
Consider these texts:
- Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL these things."
- Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself, Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."
Who has made
THE WICKED? Who
CREATED EVIL?
God said:
"I the Lord do ALL these things," such as:
I CREATE EVIL; and
I CREATE DARKNESS, and
I MAKE EVEN THE WICKED!"
Consider these texts:
- Job 26:13 "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT."
It has been said that this text is referring to a specific
constellation of stars, not
the serpent from the Garden, who is Satan, the devil, the Great Dragon, etc. (see Revelation 12:9). But why would the word
"garnished" (Hebrew - shiprah = beauty) be used for the creation of the stars which make up
ALL of the constellations in the heavens, but the word
"formed" (Hebrew - chalal = travailed) be used for the creation of
one particular constellation of stars
'in the heavens' named
"the crooked serpent?" That makes little, if any sense. The only sure explanation is given in the verse below:
- Revelation 12:9 "And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
That
OLD [crooked] SERPENT was cast down from heaven (Revelation 12:9) because God
forced him out, he didn't
"fall from grace".
Jesus plainly says that
the devil was
"a murderer from the beginning":
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"
And
John plainly says that
the devil "sinneth from the beginning":
- 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."
Orthodoxy says:
"the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning', and
"the devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning'", but instead he was a
sinless, holy angel in
the beginning. Do I believe
Jesus & John, or do I believe the doctrines of
Mystery Babylon?
Be very careful out there. Many false doctrines abound :mshock:
So since Cain slaying Abel was the first murder. Then it follows that Cain must be the devil since he committed the first murder and was a murderer from the beginning ...I don't think so.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 17, 2013, 09:30:13 PM
So since Cain slaying Abel was the first murder. Then it follows that Cain must be the devil since he committed the first murder and was a murderer from the beginning ...I don't think so.
Jesus plainly says that
the devil was
"a murderer from the beginning":
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"
And
John plainly says that
the devil "sinneth from the beginning":
- 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."
Do you believe them?
Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel. the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did
'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?
and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him
Quote from: sheila on January 17, 2013, 09:42:06 PM
Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel. the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did
'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?
and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him
Jesus and John are talking about the devil's
"NATURE" from his beginnings in these verses, not about any 'specific' deeds. The very
NATURE of the devil
(as he was created to be) is evil:
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own [nature]: for he [his nature] is a liar, and the father of it."
Satan is a being created just the way he is, for God's purposes.
- Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."
yes and evil tool/wicked contrast......I see the abomination of desolation as he that should not be...a wing of the temple=
a spirit in the temple of God[or sin entered..into man and all died]
also..men he posesses...such as religious leaders in Jesus day[offspring of vipers] those who kill with the 'letter' of the law
[pens of lying scribes] are examples of that spirit in action. who 'judge' law..to kill..but do not keep law in the spirit[lawless one
revealed].
they mistakenly think...there is no law against the spirit...and that is true for the Holy spirit..but the evil spirit is the wicked contrast
tool..and he is the lawless one and is condemned by the very law he judged..when he tempted man..and lied in the
beginning....to entice him to sin and thus be condemned to die./sin's law.
Quote from: sheila on January 17, 2013, 09:54:13 PM
yes and evil tool/wicked contrast......I see the abomination of desolation as he that should not be...a wing of the temple=
a spirit in the temple of God [or sin entered..into man and all died]
Yes, but never forget that
"man was DEAD [naked]" to begin with. When they ate the fruit of the tree of
'the knowledge of good and evil', it did not cause them to
BECOME NAKED, it only caused them to
"REALIZE they were already NAKED to begin with." :wink2:
- Romans 7:7 "........I would not have come TO KNOW sin [realize I was naked] except through the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Paul says:
"I would not have come to KNOW sin......... EXCEPT through the Law" In other words, I would not have come to
"the knowledge of good and evil [sin]",
except through
the Law.
Man did not
"fall", because he had nowhere to fall. Sin entered through one man (Adam), but not because he
"willfully sinned" and disobeyed God. Most people have this backwards. Adam
"willfully disobeyed" God
BECAUSE "the creature [Adam - and you and I] was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY - NOT WILLINGLY - BUT BY REASON OF HIM":
- Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God], who hath subjected the same in hope."
This is confirmed by a second witness, Jeremiah:
- Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."
Paul breaks the two verses above down to specifics here:
- 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the
"flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God". It is
corruptible flesh that is
FIRST, the
incorruptible SPIRIT comes
AFTERWARD, not the other way around.
Jeremiah 18:4 is now easily understood thanks to Paul breaking it down for us.
- Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel [THE FIRST MAN ADAM] that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel [THE LAST MAN ADAM], as seemed good to the potter to make it."
Notice:
- 1 Corinthians 15:45-46 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29], but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on January 03, 2011, 06:55:54 PM
I have something to talk about regarding the scriptures dealing with the parable or story. I was just reading that in Jewish theology, just prior to and during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, they believed and taught that the place of the dead was divided into two sections. One for the righteous and referred to as Abraham's bosom. And the other for the unrighteous. This is what they thought Sheol was. And not unlike what many religious folks think today regarding the Greek equivalent of Hades, which many think is a place of punishment. Its interesting how that Sheol was divided into two sections as opposed to the way Hades is now understood as only one place. An inconsistency I think. Anyway, my point itction. Not to mention if you don't believe in a place of torment. But why would Jesus refer to a false doctrine is what I'm wondering? Any thoughts?
Thank you for sharing that! I have long wondered exactly how it fit.. i.e. I knew it was a "parable" or illustration and not a nonfictional account. And have always thought it was based on the thought and theories of the day.. Or actually almost any day, since the idea of death being another state of life is so deeply ingrained upon the human psyche. Mirroring that so long ago claim made by the opposer, "surely.. you won't.. die?!" Even sheol in Strong's Hebrew Concordance has become, the place (or realm) of the dead. [According to Isaiah 14, surely, the "place" and 'realm' of the dead is the grave - "worms as a bed, and maggots as a covering".]
:thumbsup:
haveing trouble equating naked flesh with evil nature. Seems Jesus Christ was born naked like us..and no sin in Him.
Quote from: Illuin on January 17, 2013, 09:25:29 PM
Jesus plainly says that the devil was "a murderer from the beginning":
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"
And John plainly says that the devil "sinneth from the beginning":
- 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."
Orthodoxy says: "the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning', and "the devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning'", but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning. Do I believe Jesus & John, or do I believe the doctrines of Mystery Babylon?
Be very careful out there. Many false doctrines abound :mshock:
greetings! :)
..."beginning" used is #746 of the Strong's Greek Concordance, meaning "commencement" and is the same word used by Jesus when He told His disciples they had been with Him from the
beginning, and "I said not to you at the
beginning" and such like. So here, I'm thinking, taking into consideration other verses, "was a murderer from the beginning.. ..of the world"
- Luke 10:18, Jesus said He saw Satan as lightening fall from heaven..
In Revelation chapter 12, the dragon was cast out of heaven, follows, there was war in heaven..
- "The angels which left their first estate" more commonly "place" (Jude 6) they left their place, showing will..
- - God did however, create evil, albeit indirectly when He endowed thinking ability, for an offshoot (surely?) of thinking ability, is the ability to choose and make choices. A real Pandora's box that was! But what was His other option? No rational creatures? ever? Life as we presently know it is an unavoidable journey (and lesson). Unavoidable if there is to be thinking ability, that is. As we know, God is 100% good, and, He is, of course, perfect. This includes all powerful. Anything less would be imperfect. This unavoidable lesson, as we know, is the learning and full comprehension of what is good from what is evil, which is also life from death/nonlife. In the 'end' after the 2nd resurrection will be full review of human history, a reinforcement if you will of all that is good from what is evil, and life from death.
- Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? and, Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? - I wasn't happy with my answer to him so I prayed and the answer(s) I got knocked my socks off, to the point they are still knocked off. - That's just it. We are not an ant farm. Another thing I learned was that God is life itself. Therefor to choose anything other than what or how God chooses, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence the need to be rescued, not only from death/nonlife, but its cause, imperfection.
- Because God endowed thinking ability, all suffer, some even horribly.. but, God being life, experiences, suffers and lives through all suffering which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating robots or an ant farm, but a family and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable, because aLL will fully understand good from evil, life from death, true from untrue, and will know to walk away from God, simply cannot be done!
- at the 'end' of the answers which came to me in prayer, 17 years ago, was a question: "why, did God wait such a veRy long time, before creating the universe and man and woman? Not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred but after it had fully matured into outright revolt and sedition.. didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did.. and i say "long" because when there was 'only' the Father and the Son and the angels, surely, there wasn't all that much to go astray about... (The answer, so all would take this unavoidable journey, and lesson, now, once and for all, instead of one going astray now, another later, another still later, and so on and so forth, taking virtually 'forever'.
~ A postscript, Of all the things I learned at this period of my life (I call my happy hermit years of much quality time alone with God) was that since God can only be perfect (or He too would fade) the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it) can only be the best-one-possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_Ia4BlmYjbQ
Above is the first explanation I came across,
very interesting
explains the symbolic references to "The gulf" - meaning the Jordan river etc
Hi Sheila,
Man was
MADE (created) with
a natural inclination to sin – an
innate natural propensity to sin. He could
NEVER have sinned if he did not already have this natural propensity to sin. It would be impossible. And the Word of God plainly tells us that Man was
created imperfect. This is plainly stated in Jeremiah:
- Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay [the FIRST MAN Adam] WAS MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel [the LAST MAN Adam = Christ], as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
Notice what John says here:
- 1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
How could Eve (and Adam) possibly have done all of this if she were perfected? And yet she was guilty of
"all that is in the world" BEFORE she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
- Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins
before she ever touched the tree.
Once she ate of the fruit of that tree she was simply
given the knowledge that she was indeed sinful [naked]. But she did not
become sinful after eating, she simply
became aware of the fact that she was made of dust and was naked. That is how we know that
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a
shadow and a
type of
THE LAW:
- Romans 7:7 "........I would not have come to know sin [realize I was naked] except through the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Paul says:
"I would not have come to KNOW sin......... EXCEPT through the Law" In other words, I would not have come to
"the knowledge of good and evil [sin]",
except through
the Law.
'Know' is the same as the word
'knowledge.' So the law is also "good" because it is the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil. The tree is not
solely evil. It is not merely
the tree of the knowledge of evil.
Orthodoxy has this completely backwards. Adam and Eve disobeyed God
BECAUSE "the creature [Adam - and you and I] was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY - NOT WILLINGLY - BUT BY REASON OF HIM":
Romans 8:20 "For the creature
was made subject to vanity,
not willingly [not by choice, not by his own free-will, and not by a 'fall'], but
by reason of him [God], who hath subjected the same in hope."
Sheila reading your post inspired me to Pen the following
Who am I?
The word has been given to me.
I am by definition; the one who has been given the word.
I am not the word.
I remember the word was already there.
I can remember when I received the word.
When I received the word I knew already, what the word was and was not.
I knew what the word was and was not.
I knew that I was not the word.
I am an image of the word.
The word knows I am its image.
I know that I am the image of the word
The word can see their image.
The word creates all things.
Their image is creative.
Can the image of the word I am, create? NO
I am only seen, as creating all.
When the word let me see the image I was.
So I could see; what they saw.
I saw the word naked.
I was ashamed of the word, naked.
The word comforted me by clothing me.
I knew then that I was no longer the true image of the word.
Would the word have any use for an image
an image that had to be hidden?
Was the word hiding parts of itself for the sake of the image?
I am the image of the word.
The word then showed me an image of itself.
That was not me.
I saw nakedness but no shame.
I saw all the images of the Word.
I saw the word.
When I looked at the word it had become flesh like me.
The word had shown it's self to me again.
I was a true image now.
The veil covering my nakedness was gone.
I was deceived.
The word felt no shame when looking at me, its image.
Who am I?
I am the image of the word.
Who is the word?
Quote from: marie glen on January 17, 2013, 11:59:14 PM
Quote from: Illuin on January 17, 2013, 09:25:29 PM
Jesus plainly says that the devil was "a murderer from the beginning":
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"
And John plainly says that the devil "sinneth from the beginning":
- 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."
Orthodoxy says: "the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning', and "the devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning'", but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning. Do I believe Jesus & John, or do I believe the doctrines of Mystery Babylon?
Be very careful out there. Many false doctrines abound :mshock:
greetings! :)
..."beginning" used is #746 of the Strong's Greek Concordance, meaning "commencement" and is the same word used by Jesus when He told His disciples they had been with Him from the beginning, and "I said not to you at the beginning" and such like. So here, I'm thinking, taking into consideration other verses, "was a murderer from the beginning.. ..of the world"
- Luke 10:18, Jesus said He saw Satan as lightening fall from heaven..
In Revelation chapter 12, the dragon was cast out of heaven, follows, there was war in heaven..
- "The angels which left their first estate" more commonly "place" (Jude 6) they left their place, showing will..
- - God did however, create evil, albeit indirectly when He endowed thinking ability, for an offshoot (surely?) of thinking ability, is the ability to choose and make choices. A real Pandora's box that was! But what was His other option? No rational creatures? ever? Life as we presently know it is an unavoidable journey (and lesson). Unavoidable if there is to be thinking ability, that is. As we know, God is 100% good, and, He is, of course, perfect. This includes all powerful. Anything less would be imperfect. This unavoidable lesson, as we know, is the learning and full comprehension of what is good from what is evil, which is also life from death/nonlife. In the 'end' after the 2nd resurrection will be full review of human history, a reinforcement if you will of all that is good from what is evil, and life from death.
- Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? and, Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? - I wasn't happy with my answer to him so I prayed and the answer(s) I got knocked my socks off, to the point they are still knocked off. - That's just it. We are not an ant farm. Another thing I learned was that God is life itself. Therefor to choose anything other than what or how God chooses, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence the need to be rescued, not only from death/nonlife, but its cause, imperfection.
- Because God endowed thinking ability, all suffer, some even horribly.. but, God being life, experiences, suffers and lives through all suffering which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating robots or an ant farm, but a family and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable, because aLL will fully understand good from evil, life from death, true from untrue, and will know to walk away from God, simply cannot be done!
- at the 'end' of the answers which came to me in prayer, 17 years ago, was a question: "why, did God wait such a veRy long time, before creating the universe and man and woman? Not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred but after it had fully matured into outright revolt and sedition.. didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did.. and i say "long" because when there was 'only' the Father and the Son and the angels, surely, there wasn't all that much to go astray about... (The answer, so all would take this unavoidable journey, and lesson, now, once and for all, instead of one going astray now, another later, another still later, and so on and so forth, taking virtually 'forever'.
~ A postscript, Of all the things I learned at this period of my life (I call my happy hermit years of much quality time alone with God) was that since God can only be perfect (or He too would fade) the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it) can only be the best-one-possible.
When God speaks of
"the beginning" He is speaking of the originating point of the subject in question. In this case the subject in question is
"the devil." This is referring to
"the devil's beginning."JESUS said of Satan,
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it."
Jesus reveals that in
THE BEGINNING, in even
HIS beginning, Satan
WAS A MURDERER!
John 8:44 above states that Satan
"Adobe not in the truth." In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (Greek form of
steko),
"I keep my standing", or simply,
"I stand", and the form is
(esteken) meaning that
as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE.
- Revelation 12:9 "And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."
Satan is called
"that old serpent." The word
"old" is from the Greek word
"archaios" which means
ORIGINAL or PRIMEVAL.
"Primeval" means
FROM THE FIRST AGE OR AGES: PRIMITIVE.
"Archaios" is from the Greek word
"arche" which means
A COMMENCEMENT OR BEGINNING. Furthermore,
"arche" is an abstraction of the Greek word
"archomai" which means
TO COMMENCE IN ORDER OF TIME.
Satan is that
OLD serpent, that
ANCIENT serpent, that
ORIGINAL serpent, that
PRIMEVAL serpent, the serpent of THE FIRST AGE,
from the BEGINNING, who existed as a serpent from
HIS COMMENCEMENT.
The scripture in Luke 10 you mention must be considered in context of what is being discussed:
- Luke 10:16 "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
You do understand what or where Heaven is Marie Glen, correct? I'm sure you know it is decidedly
NOT some geographical location somewhere
"out there" in space somewhere, but is
within the hearts and minds of God's saints
(i.e. - WE ARE THE TEMPLE of the Living God; & the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU, etc.).
Anyway, notice above in Luke that Christ had just sent his disciples out
to cast out demons, among other assignments. The fact that
the demons were being cast out is Christ's reference when He made the statement
'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven'. In that very context He goes on to say:
- Luke 10:20 "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
The
subjection of the spirits to these seventy disciples of Christ is the subject, and heaven is located within the hearts and minds of the people of God.
Just as we read in Revelation:,
- Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless [Greek, abussos] pit [Greek, phrear]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit [phrear], as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit [phrear].
This star that falls from heaven to the earth and is given the key to the bottomless pit is simply
a spirit from heaven which darkens
OUR understanding of spiritual matters and darkens
OUR sun [light] and
air [spirit]. :dsunny:
Paul also refers to this:
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
So we have to remember that
Satan as lightning falling from Heaven in Luke chapter 10 is
'in relation' to
God's Apostles (saints = you and I) given the ability
to cast Satan out of 'OUR' Heaven within, and has nothing to do with Satan once being a perfect sinless being who
"fell" from a
geographical "heaven" because he went bad. The context of Satan falling as lightning from Heaven is in relation to
the subjection of the spirits to these seventy disciples of Christ
[as well as us today].
Illuin, I agree with much of what you are saying, but your statement "Re-read my previous post SLOWLY Sheila" is coming off combative (for no reason that I can see). Very often tone and other types of communication are lost in written form, and what we are left with is something that seems harsher than it is. I know I am guilty of this often.
Also if you could introduce yourself that would be great.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 18, 2013, 01:24:11 AM
Illuin, I agree with much of what you are saying, but your statement "Re-read my previous post SLOWLY Sheila" is coming off combative (for no reason that I can see). Very often tone and other types of communication are lost in written form, and what we are left with is something that seems harsher than it is. I know I am guilty of this often.
Also if you could introduce yourself that would be great.
I apologize. I certainly didn't mean it that way :dunno2:. My thinking was that if Sheila re-read the post it would come into focus - because Sheila basically understood everything
"in spirit" already, and a few extra passages from Scripture usually will tie everything together.
My style of writing is very
"systematic" and mechanical, kind of like Spock - but combative I am not, I can assure you (as I sit here getting teary-eyed watching
'The Karate Kid' :laughing7:)
My name is Pete, and I am a semi-retired astrophysicist - which explains my formulaic writing style :teaching: I have been studying Scripture for many decades, but only
recently (will be 6 years in August) has God opened my eyes to the magnitude of His love and mercy for
ALL mankind. I now realize first hand that no amount of studying is relevant
UNTIL God, in His time, decides to explain what the
"letter of the Word" means to the spiritual eyes and ears :Chinscratch:. I know a few members in this venue from other forums, and it will be nice to talk with them again. I really hope we get a little more action in here. I joined quite a while ago, but it seemed like everyone was on vacation :laughing7:. Peace and God bless.
Quote from: sheila on January 17, 2013, 09:42:06 PM
Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel. the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did
'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?
and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him
IMO, The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world in the mind of God. The whole cosmos was created for this revelation of sacrificial love. But the Lamb was not actually slain until He died on the cross.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:20)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 18, 2013, 07:01:24 AM
Quote from: sheila on January 17, 2013, 09:42:06 PM
Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel. the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did
'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?
and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him
IMO, The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world in the mind of God. The whole cosmos was created for this revelation of sacrificial love. But the Lamb was not actually slain until He died on the cross.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:20)
Right, I agree
(even though we have to keep in mind that the "physical" property of "time" is non-existent in the spiritual realm, which transcends the linear aions created with the physical universe [Greek: kosmos = world])
Christ was slain from the foundation of the world -- but also Christ's "Christ" - whom Christ has sent just as His Father sent Him - were also slain from the foundation of the world:
- Matthew 10:39 "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."
John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
1 Corinthians 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."
Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Romans 6:3-4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even SO send I you."
We were also
"slain with (in) Christ" as far as God is concerned
(i.e. - as you have said, "in the mind of God")
- 1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."
2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."
We were
"in Christ Jesus before the world began", and therefore we were, since we were
IN CHRIST,
"slain before the foundation of the world... IN Christ Jesus"
well,not to be making excuses..lol..but did you ever have an 'off' day..when your'e head hurt..and light reading was about
all you could manage? :sigh: that's were I've been for a couple days..My grand-daughters last jr high ballgame last night..
so...I got off the board to get ready! LOL!!!
ps..astrophysicst huh? I have the hardest time mentally wrapping my head around all that stuff. I should have persisted
with my subscription to Omni yrs ago..and my understanding may have been better. Nice to meet you!, Pete!
I can see, Illuin, that we are worlds apart. :smile: I believe there will be a second advent of Jesus and the kingdom will then be not only within all people, but also will be upon earth and throughout the created universe.. Once again God will say "Behold it is all good".
- It's not hard for me to believe God designed satan&co to be his winnowing fork, but, at the creation, God said each day "behold all is GOOD". If all was good, why the need for a force of evildoing to winnow/improve his human creatures? If God created man and woman without flaw, at the beginning, why is it unreasonable the same can be said for the angels. God did endow thinking ability which logic leads to the thought that an offshoot of thinking ability is the ability to make choices. That said, surely it was bound to occur, a first thought somewhere, not fully aligned with God. (But what is/was God's other choice? No rational, thinking creatures ever?)
When prayerfully seeking to understand prophesy, the question came to my mind "why did God wait so very long and only create man and woman and the universe not only after, the 1st bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but had fully ripened into outright (potential/probable) sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did, :smile: "waited a very long time because when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to go astray about. The answer of course was, so all (man and angel kinds) would take this unavoidable journey(and lesson) once for all 'time' otherwise one would stray now, another later, and so on taking virtually 'forever'.. [Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be thinking ability.] You see, I am thoroughly convinced we are still a-chewing upon that fruit of knowing/fully understanding all good from all evil.. which is also life from death/nonlife. We are learning to wander from God or to disagree with God is actually not possible! Else one becomes nonlife/fades.. even as we see this "law of corruption" a natural physical law we are living in now in this, life as we know it.
The bottomless pit! Now, there's where I agree with you that something is within the heart and mind of man! The abyss of Rev 9:2 is man, and angel, endowed with thinking ability, thus choice. It's endless the depths one can fall to.. In this instance, Rev 9:2, what is prophesied as coming out of the pit (and the "smoke", of Joel's very dry day) will be marshall law enforced by 'whirring locusts' which swarm and hover (description of a locust which is what John called these).
So you see, even Bible prophecy and the Book of Revelation, to me, is quite literal in its meaning(s). :smile:
Concerning the "strong delusion" Peter wrote of, when I prayed earnestly to understand Bible prophecy, the question came immediately to my mind, "what are the strongest influences upon mankind today- today, not yesteryear" - was how it was phrased. The first thing I realized is that the "strong delusion" came from the "false prophet"/teaching/teacher of the Book of Revelation, and this began as a man and turned the world upside down, i.e., changed western civilization, or what was once called Christendom. A huGe influence upon our world which became a white frocked magician (plural) which gave a certain office (the 'little' beast, not yesteryear's) the capability to bring fire 'down' to earth in the sight of man(in 1945) convincing them to rebuild the world beast/body which had expired because its head did not, afterall, sign on (Rev 13). This same white frocked magician will, or has, also developed the (tracking, mind control?) apparatus which will be the abomination of desolation, Jesus said would be "seen" (in the world, the modern version being the 66 and 6).
- So you see, I take a very literal stance on God's Word, our Bible. Some interpretations, to me, seem to require a good degree of mental acrobatics and loop de loops, so defy logic.
I agree with the spirits were subject to the disciples and this is an important aspect.. But I see them not only as oppressions within the people, but as forces for evil in the world (often working two sides of things til there is war, large or small). And that this aligns with the phrase "the god of this world" ("has blinded the minds..")
..thanks for interesting discussion..
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 07:18:16 PM
well,not to be making excuses..lol..but did you ever have an 'off' day..when your'e head hurt..and light reading was about
all you could manage? :sigh: that's were I've been for a couple days..My grand-daughters last jr high ballgame last night..
so...I got off the board to get ready! LOL!!!
ps..astrophysicst huh? I have the hardest time mentally wrapping my head around all that stuff. I should have persisted
with my subscription to Omni yrs ago..and my understanding may have been better. Nice to meet you!, Pete!
It happens to me all the time. Many times I believe it is God shutting us down because He wants us to chew on only so much at one time, but not too much. :flamebreath:
No, astrophysics isn't difficult, nowhere near as intricate as Scripture. Just like understanding agriculture, understanding astrophysics is a great aid when dealing with complex issues in Scripture, such as
"time" and
"eternity." It has helped me to understand more thoroughly how the
successive ages (chronois aioniois) God has created solely for the
"physical" universe --- which, if continued forever, would simply be an endless
"duration" of chronological time and life
(life aionios) --- have nothing to do with the
"true" meaning of
"eternity" or
"without end" (Gr: aphthartos = imperishable = incorruptible = immortal). The true meaning is
the unchangeable quality of divine existence, which transcends the physical universe, including the property of
time itself.
These are subjects that come up frequently when discussing the questionable translations of the word
'aion' with those who subscribe to
eternal torment or
annihilationism.
Logic - gotta love it.
"Come, let us reason together" says the Lord God. :Peace2:
well..it is that very issue that coz's me to 'butt' heads with some of my brother's on the forum :sigh:..
when the spirit of Christ is in you...the Kingdom of heaven is in your midst..this I know..for tabernacling with Him
is just that. I know that I have come down[been subjected] to the vanity per His will. Holy spirit showed this there
to Peter 3 times in the vision..that we come down with little or no understanding[animals on sheet] to return.
no-one has ascended except for him who descended. son of man..is all of us.
We sometimes cannot understand the reasoning of God, but just as "it is impossible for God to lie"
I also believe it is impossible for God to be illogical in any way. :Peace2:
hey ded2 what you call 'illogical' I call man not understanding His logic...say the 'foolishness' of the cross..it is
foolishness to the natural man..or illogical to his mind... God's 'foolishness' being wiser than the wisdom of man :cloud9:
marie glen
Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #37 on: Today at 09:50:46 PM »
".....God said each day "behold all is GOOD". If all was good, why the need for a force of evildoing to winnow/improve his human creatures? If God created man and woman without flaw, at the beginning, ...."
I God did NOT say after Gen. 1:26,27,28 that It was Good. He did say at Gen 1:31 "And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good;.."
So however man was made, it was just how God desired him to be.
And if by meaning "God created man and woman without flaw...." that there actions in Gen. 3 were calculated, I can agree, but if you mean that God made them without "flaw" or perfect in His likeness and image, then I cannot agree.
Had man been made without "flaw" perfect in His likeness and image, I cannot except that man would have been deceived by the adversary.
That would mean imo, that God could be deceived.
IMO, man had knowledge in Gen. 2 [knowledge: - cunning, [ig-] norantly, know(-ledge), [un-] awares (wittingly).] but that knowledge had no adversity to be compared with.
Again, going with the thought that man was created in God's image and likeness, it was not until Gen. 3:22 that God's work of creating man continues and began learning. Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --
Hey Micah....imo there is 'good' better...and 'perfect :declare:"
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 10:26:39 PM
when the spirit of Christ is in you...the Kingdom of heaven is in your midst..this I know..for tabernacling with Him
I agree. You couldn't be more right. God is Spirit, spirit lies beyond matter, beyond time, beyond space. The spirit exists before and above and beyond time.
"HE IS before all things." So if one lives and walks
"in the spirit" he is ALSO transcending time, space, and matter. Eternity is not somewhere out in the future where time continues
linearly. Eternity, rather, is where time
"ends" dimensionally; where the
"physical" dies and the
"spirit" lives. The spirit of Christ is unchangeable, therefore eternal, before time, after time, and in time; hence, the name
"I AM." And when the spirit of
I AM lives
in you, and you
in Him, that is what is truly meant by
"LIFE eternal."
- John 14:6 "....I AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE...."
If perfect like god, that would mean omniscience. If omniscient, Adam/Eve wouldn't have had to think twice about "a knowledge of good and evil" or the consequences of sin.
Quote from: marie glen on January 18, 2013, 09:50:46 PM
So you see, even Bible prophecy and the Book of Revelation, to me, is quite literal in its meaning(s). :smile:
Concerning the "strong delusion" Peter wrote of, when I prayed earnestly to understand Bible prophecy, the question came immediately to my mind, "what are the strongest influences upon mankind today- today, not yesteryear" - was how it was phrased. The first thing I realized is that the "strong delusion" came from the "false prophet"/teaching/teacher of the Book of Revelation, and this began as a man and turned the world upside down, i.e., changed western civilization, or what was once called Christendom. A huGe influence upon our world which became a white frocked magician (plural) which gave a certain office (the 'little' beast, not yesteryear's) the capability to bring fire 'down' to earth in the sight of man(in 1945) convincing them to rebuild the world beast/body which had expired because its head did not, afterall, sign on (Rev 13). This same white frocked magician will, or has, also developed the (tracking, mind control?) apparatus which will be the abomination of desolation, Jesus said would be "seen" (in the world, the modern version being the 66 and 6).
- So you see, I take a very literal stance on God's Word, our Bible. Some interpretations, to me, seem to require a good degree of mental acrobatics and loop de loops, so defy logic.
..thanks for interesting discussion..
I'm not really sure who you are referring to here Marie, so I do not want to reply without knowing for sure. Are you referring to a nation, such as the United States maybe?
Good H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good
Better H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good
Perfect H8549
תּמים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire From root "COMPLETE"
Better in the NT is "stronger or beautiful"
I know this is true.. the cross is but that the temporal dissolves and the immortal/spiritual is firmly fixed.
Quote from: Illuin on January 18, 2013, 11:03:03 PM
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 10:26:39 PM
when the spirit of Christ is in you...the Kingdom of heaven is in your midst..this I know..for tabernacling with Him
I agree. You couldn't be more right. God is Spirit, spirit lies beyond matter, beyond time, beyond space. The spirit exists before and above and beyond time. "HE IS before all things." So if one lives and walks "in the spirit" he is ALSO transcending time, space, and matter. Eternity is not somewhere out in the future where time continues linearly. Eternity, rather, is where time "ends" dimensionally; where the "physical" dies and the "spirit" lives. The spirit of Christ is unchangeable, therefore eternal, before time, after time, and in time; hence, the name "I AM." And when the spirit of I AM lives in you, and you in Him, that is what is truly meant by "LIFE eternal."
- John 14:6 "....I AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE...."
There is a name for this place where we in linear time can hope over into the other dimension
I t is marked on a map with a Cross . Wheres the map?
In our heart.. :Peace2:
Oh good I found my map .
I was looking to see what scale was used .The value of the coordinates.
It said the value for the measurement of time, was exactly the value
of that which measures it.
The map says at the bottom
If you get lost that's perfect just stand still and say I am lost.
This is where the CROSS is.
Enter thenew dimension at your peers risk.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 19, 2013, 07:18:41 PM
Quote from: Illuin on January 18, 2013, 11:03:03 PM
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 10:26:39 PM
when the spirit of Christ is in you...the Kingdom of heaven is in your midst..this I know..for tabernacling with Him
I agree. You couldn't be more right. God is Spirit, spirit lies beyond matter, beyond time, beyond space. The spirit exists before and above and beyond time. "HE IS before all things." So if one lives and walks "in the spirit" he is ALSO transcending time, space, and matter. Eternity is not somewhere out in the future where time continues linearly. Eternity, rather, is where time "ends" dimensionally; where the "physical" dies and the "spirit" lives. The spirit of Christ is unchangeable, therefore eternal, before time, after time, and in time; hence, the name "I AM." And when the spirit of I AM lives in you, and you in Him, that is what is truly meant by "LIFE eternal."
- John 14:6 "....I AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE...."
There is a name for this place where we in linear time can hope over into the other dimension
I t is marked on a map with a Cross . Wheres the map?
It is written in between the lines of the Scriptures and illuminated by the Holy Spirit in the communion of the saints.
EW You (nearly) always say what I meant - only better :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 07:23:54 PM
In our heart.. :Peace2:
Exactly! :declare:
- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Do you not know that YOU ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."
We are the temple, the
Most Holy Place represents
our heart. Christ is
the Ark. The heavenly manna, representing His own incorruptible life, is within
our heart. Aaron's rod that budded, representing His divine appointment and priesthood, is
within our heart.
And the
tables of the law, His own nature,
are within our heart:
- Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts..."
The mystery is
"Christ IN YOU":
- Colossians 1:26-27 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 10:22:35 PM
EW You (nearly) always say what I meant - only better :Peace2:
Awww, Thanks Bro :o)
I hope this is the right place to post this.. I finally understand this parable!
I've always figured no humans would hold out stubbornly enough to "go to the lake of fire". Yet so many use this parable to support the ultra ridiculous and highly illogical idea of 'hell'. :flamebreath:
I always chalked this one up to (1) being a parable :laughing7: of course, and also (2) the Greek tendency for DRAMA and Jesus was playing along. But since coming to tentmaker site and forum, I see it's probably likely humans may well go to the LOF for individual duration.
I still of course hope not very many! But the understanding feels fuller.. more complete.
Quote from: Illuin on January 17, 2013, 09:25:29 PM
Sheila, I think you are a bit confused with regard to what Satan's "role" is. The idea that Satan was once a "holy angel" who fell is yet another of the many, many false doctrines of Babylon.
Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?
- John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own [nature]: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
How long has Satan been a murderer? Did he start out as a good angel who went bad? "He [the devil] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him."
The first question should be beginning of what?
Begining of when satan was created? Or the beginning of the Bible?
Please note Gen 1:1 ...in the beginning....
I believe there were 6 cherubs/guardian angels around God's throne.
MichaEL – Warrior prince of God
GabriEL – Redeemer of God
RaphaEL – Healer of God
UriEL – Light of God
Abaddon – Originally Cherub of life. Now angel of death. Real name unknown. 1Cor15:55, Rev 6:8
Lucifer – Originally covering Cherub lighting the path to truth. Now angel of darkness, deception. Real name unknown. Ezekiel 28:13-19.
The last two are 1/3 of the stars swept from heaven
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html