Dead know nothing

[eaglesway]

Satan is accusing "the brethren" before the thron of Gopd night and day.

He is not accusing the sons of disobedience, nor is he accusing the principalities and powers, rulers of hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms.

There conversions are for the ages to come.

In this age it is for those who have been chosen to recieve the grace of God and become children of God, sons of obedience so to speak, and as strangers in a strange land, aliens among a wicked and perverse generation, we stand as wiotnmesses to the grace of God that will be revealed in the ages to come.

The restoration of all things is "an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma) of times." Pleroma is the word used in the scripture "filled up to all the fulness of God".

This will not occur until the last enemy is subjected, at the end of time, when the times are completed. This is what I believe the scriptures show in the clear solid ground of the word. Interpretations of less clear words are great, and enlightening, but IMO nothing you have shared out of the word weighs on these other clear statements that I have been presenting.

IMO, To assume that the ENTIRE BODY OF SCRIPTURE is allegorical is and error, and the clear statements of the word have to be integrated with the interpretive prophecies by the spirit before one can put their foot down on it as foundational.

[sheila]

 He is not accusing the sons of disobediance..because 'he' is the ruler of the sons of disobediance=see offspring

  of vipers on Pharisee's and sadducees..per John the Baptist testimony and Jesus' wittness.

  he is not accusing the principalities and powers and rulers because 'he' is the principalities and powers and rulers=see temptation

  of Jesus..all these are mine..do one act of worship and I'll give them to you.

  he is not accusing the  hosts of wickedness in heavenly places because he is the hosts of wickedness in heavenly places

  =see  Jesus turned over to Pilate by Jerusalem temple high priest and sanhedren court..and Jesus words..'you would

have no power over me unless it was given to you from above[heavenly hosts of wickedness/sanhedren/high priest]

  he that turned me over to you has greater sin.  =satan seed/offspring of viper on Pharisees,sadducees,sanhedren etc.
.

   THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH APPROACHES..the end of sin and the beginning of immortality.  Deliverance draws

  nigh...........the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God. What? people think God's going to resurrect

the dead back into a body of sin/weakness to be taught of men on this earth? for eons?   no  no  no satan would like that

it wou ld be an indefintie stay of execution for him. What? this world continue for eons with the evil contrast tool?

     Satan is angry because he knows his time is short..do you?

[sheila]

 Spiritual principles are foundational. Fundamental truth and law doctrine that  others are built upon.  Allegories=a story

in which people things and happenings have a hidden or symbolic meaning; allegories are used for teaching to explain

  IDEAS,MORAL PRINCIPLES,etc. sign,symbol.  The scriptures are full of symbols,allegories and parabolic teachings...

   His thoughts are higher than man's and He uses signs,symbols allegories and parables to teach. People need to realize

this.  Holy spirit also uses symbology,parables to get an idea'truth' to us. See Peter's vision with the sheet let down

from heaven..then taken back up 3 times...what 3 times because Peter denied Him 3 times..or 3 wittnesses.? Or could it

possibly also mean men and men with little understanding[as beasts] being sown in the earth and Peter to kill that which

is carnal in the gentile believers and they receive understanding,too and Holy spirit to rise/return,go back up into heaven

from whence they come. There are layers[foundations] and layers of truth in parables and allegories.  The simpilest truth

in the sheet coming down allegory would be..it is not what enters a man's mouth that makes him  defiled,but what comes

out of his heart. A higher understanding would be 'gospel of salvation to gentiles" and a third the truth that God sowed men

in this earth a natural body to be raised a spiritual body.

  when Peter cursed and denied Jesus those three times..could it be the vision was showing all men were clean because

of Christ's sacrifice..and that blessings and curses should not be coming out of the same mouth[especially a vessel of mercy]

that you could not say you loved God,who you could not see..and curse men in his image?

  a simple allegory/parable..is a deep spiritual  spring of living water. IT IS WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH Drink them in and

out of your belly will come living waters.

 

[eaglesway]

There are many things that "could be". :dontknow: Could it be that the word is clear on some things and does not overturn itself by allegory?

[lomarah]

Yeah Sheila! There are so many layers of meaning in the scriptures, it's so amazing.

I used to wonder why the heck He always spoke in parables. I'm starting to get it now lol.

[dajomaco]

IMO, To assume that the ENTIRE BODY OF SCRIPTURE is allegorical is and error, and the clear statements of the word have to be integrated with the interpretive prophecies by the spirit before one can put their foot down on it as foundational.

When I first believed Jesus was the foundation.
I at that moment new the Entire Body Of Scriptures.

Then I went to church.
They taught me to really know God I must consider the Entire Body Of Scriptures.
As they had................. done so I left.

When you know Jesus through the Spirit
you already know The Entire Body Of Scriptures.

Jesus is the Entire Body Of Scriptures.

This leaves me free to discuss all the different interpretations of  the written word.
as we are here.

[sheila]

    wow..profound

     

[eaglesway]

Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

We all claim to know Jesus. We all have the scriptures. Are you claiming special revelatory knowledge? If not, the this is a blog for discussion moderated by the scriptures- those who know them should use them, in context and to the point of the discussion.  It is not profitable talk about knowing the whole body of scriptures while avoiding scriptural discussion. Circular prophetic declarations only work on sites for prophetic declarations.

This is not one of those.

If all of us know the Lord, then all you are saying to me is "I know because I know" or, "I know because I know the Lord better than anyone who disagrees with me".

I accept that you know the Lord. In fact, I accept that we all know the Lord, but I have been running into prophetic declarations since before most of the people on this board were born- and I am not impressed unless they have shown themselves humble enough to respond to the scriptures with the scriptures. Those who won't usually turn out to be just too undisciplined  to address the opinions of their brethren with the word of God.

No one here is granted any superior revelatory status.

We all stand on even ground with the scriptures as the medium of communication. That is how the site works. If someone wants to open a sub-site for prophetic declarations not accompanied by disclaimers like IMO, or, "it is written", they could ask the owner of the site to open such a sub-forum.

[eaglesway]

That God punishes the wicked is a discipline of God. There is no one here claiming God hurts people for the sake of hurting them, but, "all discipline is for the moment unpleasant but IN THE END it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness"

The only point in contention here, as I understand it, is that you are saying that there is no kolassis in the age to come, that the lake of fire and gehenna are all "in the now". So you contend that God can discipline "in the now" but to do so "in the olam" would be "monstrous".

This is totally illogical. It doesnt just void many scriptures, it is just not a logical theory. If you want to argue logic, as opposed to the scriptures, one fact has to "empirically" build on another consistently.

If God can discipline and punish now then He may also do the same "in the age to come".  It does not make Him a monster, since he "punished King Saul", He "punished" Annias and Saphira and He "punished" Aaron's sons among others, IN THIS AGE.

It may take some "punishment" before the Adversary bows the knee. These things do not all hinge on whether a "fulfilled view" or a "historical view" is taken. They simply hinge on whether Paul knew what he was talking about because HE DID NOT DEFINE ALL THESE THINGS IN ALLEGORY.

You insist that no one who dies in their iniquity in this age will experience kolassis in the age to come- but the scriptures seem to indicate otherwise in clear terms that I have yet to see anyone offer any explanation to other than prophetic interpretations.

[reFORMer]

I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________

So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground.  Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.

This is Literal interpretation!  Does anybody else see a problem?

[Lazarus Short]

I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________

So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground.  Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.

This is Literal interpretation!  Does anybody else see a problem?

Literal?  Figurative?  Prophetic?  The context is always a good clue. :declare:

[micah7:9]

IMO, The dead no nothing until they are raised for judgment.

:iagree: :dsunny:

[lomarah]

Lol reF!

And following this line of reasoning, many of them also likely didn't have eyes or hands because Jesus told them to pluck them out and cut them off if they caused them to sin.  :doh:

[ded2daworld]

How about when Moses was beating around the bush that was on fire yet was NOT consumed? :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________

So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground.  Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.

This is Literal interpretation!  Do anybody else see a problem?

I havent said anything about literal interpretaion as to what the "kolassis" is. I simply am saying that there is a great body of scripture that CAN be read literally that indicates their is "kolassis" in the age to come. It is LITERAL that the tongues of fire and the Spirit that fell on Pentecost produced GLORY, not kolassis.

Your responses as usual, have no scripture in thems in them that address the verses I posted, only umerited and illogical sarcasm. If you were interested in opening my eyes perhaps you would use a more reasonable means of "mid-rash" :o)

[dajomaco]

Thank you eagles way I think that your response was a great response.
I like the idea exploring an area of scripture that while important is not something that will cause separation.

The points you make are valid, after all there is no personnel revelations.
Scriptures say what scriptures say.

I was asked not to return to my home church.
I had expressed to them that I had been given a revelation by the Spirit of God
that there was no eternal torment.   

They said We all claim to know Jesus. We all have the scriptures. Are you claiming special revelatory knowledge?

I my self had not fully explored the scriptures in this area.

The pastor said something like this.

I accept that you know the Lord. In fact, I accept that we all know the Lord, but I have been running into prophetic declarations since before most of the people in this church were born- and I am not impressed unless they have shown themselves humble enough to respond to the scriptures with the scriptures. Those who won't usually turn out to be just too undisciplined  to address the opinions of their brethren with the word of God.

So I left and on the way out he was yelling.

No one here is granted any superior revelatory status.

I stated in my post
If you are saying that in the age to come God will discipline.
I agree if the discipline will extract a change of heart.

The only point in contention here, as I understand it, is that you are saying that there is no kolassis in the age to come, that the lake of fire and gehenna are all "in the now". So you contend that God can discipline "in the now" but to do so "in the olam" would be "monstrous".


We have no point of contention here .
You were just confused on what I said.

I said I agree.


But if you want a point of contention here's one.

You can not know what it will be like in the age to come by reading scriptures.
You can only know by Divine Revelation.
How do I know this The Spirit of God told me.

[sheila]

what was dire about it?  was death in dire straits when it was consumed in the lof?  the cloven tongues as of fire

shows we need to seperate what is consumed of the fire from what is not.And He shall seperate

  what abideth and what does not. a son abideth forever..a temporal state passes away

   we know that which is eternal abideth..never the temporal.   suffering loss...to me those that suffer loss

   are as those who had not..but what they thought they had[corruption] was lost......such as...the light/life that

they thought they had..was really death[if the light that be in ye be darkness,how great is that darkness]as dead in

tresspass and sin. satan transforming himself into an angel of light

[dajomaco]

When I first believed Jesus was the foundation.
I at that moment new the Entire Body Of Scriptures.

Is there a difference between knowing scriptures,
and knowing the law and the prophets

But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating through the Scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah.

Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David spoke in advance about Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

After this, when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished that the Scripture might be fulfilled, He said, "I'm thirsty!"

Jesus answered them, "You are deceived, because you don't know the Scriptures or the power of God.

Jesus answered them, "Isn't it written in your scripture, I said, you are gods?

So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. And they believed the Scripture and the statement Jesus had made.

Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This came from the Lord and is wonderful in our eyes?

After arranging a day with him, many came to him at his lodging. From dawn to dusk he expounded and witnessed about the kingdom of God. He tried to persuade them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.


Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the One Moses wrote about in the Law (and so did the prophets): Jesus the son of Joseph, from Nazareth!"

[ded2daworld]

Dajomaco said, "When I first believed Jesus was the foundation.
I at that moment new the Entire Body Of Scriptures."




Wow! I wish I could say that. I still don't know "the entire body of scriptures." :doh:

[sheila]

   enough of this backbiting .  Loving your brother as yourself does not include backbiting and mocking and belittling.

  people want to talk about judgement and kolassis.  every word out of our mouths we have to give an account for.

   Judgement begins at the house of the Lord.

   

[ded2daworld]

I wasn't Sheila. I sincerely wish it had happened to me like that...unless you were referring to someone else.
I assume you meant me since it was immediately after I wrote my post.
If anyone is offended i apologise for I meant none.

[lomarah]

   enough of this backbiting .  Loving your brother as yourself does not include backbiting and mocking and belittling.

  people want to talk about judgement and kolassis.  every word out of our mouths we have to give an account for.

   Judgement begins at the house of the Lord.

   

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Point taken.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I so appreciate you.  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

D ed2    it did appear to me that you were mocking. There have been some 'less than stellar' conversations on the board

as of late, and hopefully,we that say we know Christ, must do and say nothing out of contentiousness. Pr 28;25

       Mocking does offend me,as disrespect for one another.

 

[reFORMer]

I don't know if here is THE place to put this...maybe several places...
______________________________________

So, on the day of Pentecost, the 120 upon whom the fire descended and sat, rushed down and out onto the street screaming and rolling on the ground.  Their skin was peeling back and blackening, the blisters rising to break, with the hot juices flowing, as the smoke arose from their smouldering hair.

This is Literal interpretation!  Do anybody else see a problem?

I havent said anything about literal interpretaion as to what the "kolassis" is. I simply am saying that there is a great body of scripture that CAN be read literally that indicates their is "kolassis" in the age to come. It is LITERAL that the tongues of fire and the Spirit that fell on Pentecost produced GLORY, not kolassis.

Your responses as usual, have no scripture in thems in them that address the verses I posted, only umerited and illogical sarcasm. If you were interested in opening my eyes perhaps you would use a more reasonable means of "mid-rash" :o)

Dear brother,

We're far into the 4th page of this topic/thread.  It is quite usual for there to be many side paths taken.  I wasn't thinking of you personally or the overall subject of this topic when I posted, except to wonder if it was not so appropriate here.  Maybe I should put it in another topic, I thought.  I was reacting to others promoting Literalism (and their own definition of literal too) as THE way, the gold standard of interpreting scripture, even to the rejection of anything else. 

The little over-literalized vignette above is very useful when dealing with those who insist the fire of the lake of fire has to be literal, defined as in the physical realm (carnal) and that it has to be the greatest evil possible to imagine.  This is "outer court" understanding.  Of the virgins, concubines, or queens, because it is not born of intimacy with God and it is not a conception of His word, it is the virginal realm at best, not 100, nor 60, but 30-fold.  Sometimes literalism is in another game altogether, a "zero-fold" carnal imagination.  But then the wrong symbolic reading is equally fruitless and misleading.

As a person, I feel very off-topic anyhow.  I have some sort of health issue that seems the rustle of the black-hood on the shirtless man with an axe.  Still, our battle is not with flesh and blood.  I wonder at the obvious efforts made on this website to get others to think like ourselves.  I'm certain the deeply entrenched idea that, "The more others think like I do, the more right they'll be" has to be wrong; but, I don't know how to apply this to myself.

I really hate it when I offend others.  I guess I just want to be loved.

James

[jabcat]

Praying for you reF.  I'll guess John is too.   :HeartThrob: