Place of resurrection, Heaven or Earth?

[micah7:9]

So no refutation of scripture - just an appeal to a doctrine made up by men?
...and calling us preterists? as though by seperating us into a group different than yours you can
dismiss what was said?
I've said many times before, no one has a corner on the truth, man or group, preterists are wrong on some things, dispensationalists are wrong on some things. I don't care what either group says.
What does scripture say?

"What does scripture say?" Glory I really like that! :dsunny: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

While regularly a part of dipSINsationalism, this, "Racial Jews ruling over the Earth and gentile Christians, that is, racially other nations ruling in the heavens" has never been accompanied by any scripture stating just such a thing.  I therefore refuse it.  Specially when God's purpose is understood, reversion to works of the flesh and carnal identities become obvious and cannot any more satisfy.  Let us not say this is the kingdom of God which is yet to come when we who have believed have already been partaking of the kingdom Jesus says is not of this present world system.  It is the Father, 13 "Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love..." (Co 1¹³, Conc. Lit.)

It reminds me of a question that displays a problem raised by the racist aspect of the rapture doctrine, "If, as a believer, I am racially at least 51% directly descended from Abraham, will I be left behind at the rapture?"

Here is what God's written word actually says about all this:  14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier 15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; 16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it." (Ep 2^14-16, Conc. Lit.)  This rebuilding of the partition which was torn down in the death of Christ is a central feature in dipSINsationalism. It is a reason to dislike such teaching.

A "New Man" has come forth.  It is constitutionally different from the Adam man.  It is of another substance than soil.  It is an immortal, a deathless life, begun now in spirit when we're born from above, with foretastes promising the full liberation that is coming even to our bodies.  In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid.  When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh.  That's Bible, and you can take it to the bank!

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[Molly]

Just to keep the conversation open here, I am aware that there seems to be a separate resurrection spoken of for the Jews, aside from the first and second resurrection spoken of in the book of Revelation.

The dead bones resurrection in Ezekiel seems to be talking about a resurrection of a flesh and blood people with God's spirit inside of them.  The book of Daniel seems to be talking about Jews being raised together whether they have done bad or good because some are raised to endure aionic contempt.  Isaiah and elsewhere talks about the peaceable kingdom on earth where a man will sit under his own fig tree and if he dies before 100 years old it will be considered a curse.  At 100 years old, he will still be considered a child.

This has led me to think that some [Jews?] will be living on earth in earthly bodies during the 1000 year reign of Christ and living very long lives in the flesh, the way it was before the flood.

There's plenty of scripture, so let's not fly off the handle here.  We can take the time to cite it and peruse it without food fights.

[Molly]

A "New Man" has come forth.  It is constitutionally different from the Adam man.  It is of another substance than soil.  It is an immortal, a deathless life, begun now in spirit when we're born from above, with foretastes promising the full liberation that is coming even to our bodies.  In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid.  When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh.  That's Bible, and you can take it to the bank!

This is most certainly true, and it could still be true without contradicting the other.

That man through Christ has been made immortal in a glorified body does not contradict other men being made very long lived in the flesh.  Assuming that is the case, of course.

[ded2daworld]

Thanks Micah :dsunny:
Reformer said, "In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid.  When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh."
Absolutely. :thumbsup:
From what I've sen in the old testament, The Jews were held to a higher standard than that of the pagan nations around them- God had been with them without a doubt.
We, that trust in Christ before we die physically, will be held to a higher standard than even that of the pharisees for the Holy Spirit of the Living God is in us. We will be held to a higher standard than the "token" christian in our churches - the pharisees of today.

[jabcat]

We ALL probably believe various bits and pieces from various perspectives/belief systems.  There is MUCH overlap.

A little mercy and grace goes a long ways, for others and self.  Seems to me it's good to focus more on a sort of "could you show me where you support that view in scripture, because here's what I see it saying"/"I disagree, and here's why [scripture]".

:2c:   

[micah7:9]

Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:

[ded2daworld]

IMO, Labels are used to put people in a box. By labeling them, you have defined them and think you know what they are about and what they believe. This is belittling to the person labeled and bigotry on the labeler. :2c:

[jabcat]

IMO, Labels are used to put people in a box. By labeling them, you have defined them and think you know what they are about and what they believe. This is belittling to the person labeled and bigotry on the labeler. :2c:

That's a huge part of it, IMO.  Maybe I believe ONE thing and express it, that falls into some "labeled category".  So someone doesn't agree with that point, calls me that "name" thinking they've nailed down my wrong and they fully know their right...but there may be 20 other things in that labeled group that I DON"T believe - and maybe their view isn't the absolute 110% "right" one either.  (Have none of us ever changed our view on anything?)  So then we can start arguing about what I am and what you think I am, and end up wasting a whole lot of energy on that.   :dunno2:  Not saying it's easy or clear-cut.  Maybe just something to be aware of? 

[eaglesway]

Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:

IMO labels are made for deception. Every label I know describes in general terms things that have great variation in degree- imputing the most extreme negative aspect of the "label" to anyone who holds any aspect of that theology. That's just my experience with labeling.

[micah7:9]

No matter, I didn't invent the label and try my very utmost not to use them, but as long as theories within theology show ideas and reasons for how to understand the written word, and men accept it, some how labels just pop up. I really never heard of a lot of labels until I seen how many posters get labeled on this site. I will accept the label of a saint. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

No matter, I didn't invent the label and try my very utmost not to use them, but as long as theories within theology show ideas and reasons for how to understand the written word, and men accept it, some how labels just pop up. I really never heard of a lot of labels until I seen how many posters get labeled on this site. I will accept the label of a saint. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Really interesting comment, Saint Micah.   :angel4:

From your dispensationalistpartialpreteristultimatereconciliationalistbiblicaluniversalistposttribulationalpremillinialistpredestinationalsavedbygrace friend, James.

[micah7:9]

Well just what did Paul call his believers

Rom_1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom_8:27  And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom_12:13  Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Rom_15:25  But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom_15:26  For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Rom_15:31  That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
Rom_16:2  That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom_16:15  Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
1Co_1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co_6:1  Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co_6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co_14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co_16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co_16:15  I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
2Co_1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Co_8:4  Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2Co_9:1  For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2Co_9:12  For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Co_13:13  All the saints salute you.
Eph_1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph_1:15  Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph_1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph_2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph_3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph_3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph_4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph_5:3  But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph_6:18  Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Php_1:1  Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Php_4:22  All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
Col_1:2  To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col_1:4  Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col_1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col_1:26  Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1Th_3:13  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2Th_1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
1Ti_5:10  Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Phm_1:5  Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;
Phm_1:7  For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Heb_6:10  For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb_13:24  Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

[jabcat]

You're right.  Also all those carnal (living according to the flesh), imperfect folks he admonished at Corinth, who had been given faith to believe in Jesus as their savior, he also called saints!  Based on the applied blood of Calvary.  It's one of my favorite little, oft-overlooked nuggets in scripture.   :thumbsup:

My "interesting comment" was about the bolded, that you hadn't heard so many labels until you came here.  The little angel thingy was just a joke.   Then I edited my signature with my own label.  :)

[Paul L]

Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:

Like "dipSINsationalism" which none of the rest of you so far posting on this subject are having a problem with? This manner of posting is not in the spirit of Christ, and not a single one of you so-called moderators have decried it's stridently abusive tone, and demand that it be halted.

Jabcat- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Eagleway- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Ded2- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?

Come on .......the three of you offer up & utter so many platitudes about treating others with respect in the spirit of diverse opinions, but you refuse to apply that platitude to those with whom you have doctrinal sentiment (Preterism). Are the slivers you so fondly search for within the eye of another, not simply 2 x 4's in your own?

[jabcat]

I posted earlier to take any further moderation issues to PM.  If you had, you'd know we were discussing this as a mod group.  You want to know what a derogatory term is?  "So-called moderator" - DIRECTLY used as an insult to a specific person.  Which is the second time you've used it, and this is the second time you're being told it's not allowed to call out moderation issues on the boards.

This is the last warning.

[Molly]

You're right.  Also all those carnal (living according to the flesh), imperfect folks he admonished at Corinth, who had been given faith to believe in Jesus as their savior, he also called saints!  Based on the applied blood of Calvary.  It's one of my favorite little, oft-overlooked nuggets in scripture.   :thumbsup:

My "interesting comment" was about the bolded, that you hadn't heard so many labels until you came here.  The little angel thingy was just a joke.   Then I edited my signature with my own label.  :)

"he also called saints"   :thumbsup:   one of my favorites, too!



For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
   who thee by faith before the world confessed,
   thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

2.   Thou wast their rock, their fortress, and their might;
   thou Lord, their captain in the well-fought fight;
   thou in the darkness drear, their one true light.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

3.   O may thy soldiers, faithful, true, and bold,
   fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
   and win with them the victor's crown of gold.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

4.   O blest communion, fellowship divine!
   We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
   yet all are one in thee, for all are thine.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

5.   And when the strife is fierce, the warfare long,
   steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
   and hearts are brave again, and arms are strong.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

6.   From earth's wide bounds, from ocean's farthest coast,
   through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
   singing to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:
   Alleluia, Alleluia!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UvXe-of-s

[jabcat]

Paul, think hard about your response.  Right now we have options, but you can leave me with no choice.

[eaglesway]

Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:

Like "dipSINsationalism" which none of the rest of you so far posting on this subject are having a problem with? This manner of posting is not in the spirit of Christ, and not a single one of you so-called moderators have decried it's stridently abusive tone, and demand that it be halted.

Jabcat- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Eagleway- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Ded2- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?

Come on .......the three of you offer up & utter so many platitudes about treating others with respect in the spirit of diverse opinions, but you refuse to apply that platitude to those with whom you have doctrinal sentiment (Preterism). Are the slivers you so fondly search for within the eye of another, not simply 2 x 4's in your own?

This is a forum. As moderators, we make errors like everyone else. However, in order to maintain order on the forum we have a system that works. If you have a gripe against a moderator, you send it to the moderators and it DOES get discussed and if necessary, dealt with. We do not allow grandstanding against the moderators on the public forum.

You Paul, in particular are often very direct and often sometimes caustic in your delivery(the quote above is a perfect example). This doesn't bother me personally, but we discourage it on the forum because the purpose of the forum is to discuss, in a civil manner, the doctrine of the "salvation of all". Lately this has been an issue and maybe it seems that we are a little overcautious but at times the tone (on this forum and blogs in general) gets downright ungodly prideful and spiteful, so- we have been discussing things like "labeling" and sarcasm among ourselves and looking at where to draw the line. I will tell you that very few people "squeal" about anything until there own pet doctrine gets stepped on, and then its all about "the Spirit of Christ".

We are discussing things like "silly" and "dipsinsationalism" but let me make this clear- it is nowhere near as big a deal as you are making it out to be, We just all need to be a little more considerate of one another's sacred cows and sore points :o) That is all anyone has been trying to say.

No need to use it as a talking point for the expression of outrage. It is a valid point of order- so don't use it to create disorder.

[jabcat]

You're right.  Also all those carnal (living according to the flesh), imperfect folks he admonished at Corinth, who had been given faith to believe in Jesus as their savior, he also called saints!  Based on the applied blood of Calvary.  It's one of my favorite little, oft-overlooked nuggets in scripture.   :thumbsup:

My "interesting comment" was about the bolded, that you hadn't heard so many labels until you came here.  The little angel thingy was just a joke.   Then I edited my signature with my own label.  :)

"he also called saints"   :thumbsup:   one of my favorites, too!



For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
   who thee by faith before the world confessed,
   thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UvXe-of-s

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Two different events:



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

--1 Cor 15





3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

--Eze 37


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQboPOM6wYA

[ded2daworld]

Wow! I sure miss a lot of stuff by going to bed early!
It's weird to agree with someone and then be told that
you're only agreeing because of some labeled group.
Instead of a post that shows a different perspective,
why chide someone for agreeing with someone else?
We all have points of view. Some posters we agree with said our view as well
(or better) than we could have so we simply agree.
When someone posts what we disagree with why can't we explain our position
instead of labeling, or putting down the poster?
To me, if someone labels someone or puts them or their opinion down, it
means they can't offer valid reasons for their own (different) position.
This frustrates some and some leave  - some come back when they realize that
one doesn't have to be right all the time. We are all here to learn by sharing opinions.
Once you've learned something, you can't go back to the unknowledgeable state
so your opinions change. Everyone of us has changed their opinion about at a few things
and if you stop learning, you stop growing, you stop growing, you've stopped living.
"Live, Love, Learn, Laugh" no room for "label" :dsunny: :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

I do not wish to debate it but these are not....."Two different events:



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

--1 Cor 15......"

For some reason I just looked at the first two verses and made my post silly me. (oops?"

[ded2daworld]

Yep. corinthian event was different than the ezekiel event. At least IMO.

[jabcat]

I believe saying God will still have some specific dealings with national Israel (HE knows who that is), that when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled all Israel will be saved - and that most Jews/those who follow the Jewish religion are still blinded by a veil when they read the scriptures (according to Apostle Paul) - is simply scriptural (as I understand).

I personally believe when Paul said there's neither Jew nor Greek, he was saying those of the Law (Jews) and those without the law (pagans/Gentiles) are all saved when given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  That veil of separation has been torn down, and put into effect when God chooses who He'll have come to know Him in this age.   But IMO, that's still not doing away with all the above, i.e., most of those of the Jewish religion won't be saved in this time period.  (This all comes from a "partial preterist"  :rolllol:).  Thus, I don't believe categories are as important as what specific things the scriptures teach.   :2c:

How in the world did we get on this?  LOL    Oh well, I guess it has SOMETHING to do with the resurrection, huh?